Character Competitive Impressions

[Woohoo982]

Are you on crack

the question is are you

 

[Nu~]

There is no optimal way. You just have to do it as far away as possible from the opponent.

Or hit an opponent with it

 

[NairWizard]

the question is are you

I know I probably shouldn't get involved, but how is Bowser good at all?

Seems like one of the worst characters in the game to me (and everyone else here, I'm pretty sure).

Big and tall, can't land ever, mediocre aerials (b-air has power yeah but landing it is unnecessarily difficult). A pretty good poke game, I guess, with jab, ground speed, pivot options and Fire Breath, but seems to be the very definition of mediocrity otherwise.

 

[BSP]

There is no optimal way. You just have to do it as far away as possible from the opponent.

Or on top of them.

How much lag does Pac-Man receive once he starts trampoline? There were times where Pac-Man used it and I just used the trampoline or jumped over it and hit him as he was suffering landing lag. Is there an optimal way to do it or does Pac-Man have to start this far away from the opponent?

The opponent's overall mobility (dash, air, burst air mobility) determines how easily they can punish trampoline. Outside of a few exceptions, you're going airborne at some point to get past it. Some characters can be on Pac-Man extremely quickly on a miss (Sonic, Pikachu, etc.), others not so much. Against the former grouping, Pac-Man needs to be more careful. Against the latter grouping, he can pretty much spam it without punishment.

If Pac-Man is within ledge grab range, I would imagine very few characters can punish him before he hits the ledge. Maybe if they read the trampoline, but I doubt on reaction unless it's Mario with charged FLUDD.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I hear a lot of talk about how Roy is just a vastly superior version of Marth, which I don't buy at all. I think his sword mechanics are virtually incompatible with high-level play, and as soon as his novelty wears off and his gimmicks are exposed, he'll be sub-Marth yet again.

At this point in the Meta Roy and Marth are basically high tier that play opposite to one another. They both have swords and similar moves, but what they want to do is different.

Custom Marth invalidates Roy though, seriously.

 

[NairWizard]

Some characters can be on Pac-Man extremely quickly on a miss (Sonic, Pikachu, etc.), others not so much. Against the former, Pac-Man needs to be more careful. Against the latter, he can pretty much spam it without punishment.

What about Quick Attack?

 

[mimgrim]

Custom Marth invalidates Roy though, seriously.

This makes me wonder if the DLC characters will ever get customs.

Akuma's Fireballs for Ryu pl0x.

 

[Quickhero]

Custom Marth invalidates Roy though, seriously.

I wonder how hit lag is going to effect Crescent Slash. Does the 2 freeze frames make a difference when it comes to comboing or does it not?

Either way Dolphin Slash got buffed so I just gotta use that OoS option.

 

[Nu~]

Roy is going to suffer in a customs environment...

While everyone is getting windboxes and better zoning tools to hurt Roy, he gains absolutely nothing.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I forget, do they eventually give DLC characters customs at some point?

 

[BSP]

What about Quick Attack?

"Latter" was referring to "others not so much". Pikachu is great at catching him, which is why I mentioned him next to Sonic.

 

[A_Kae]

I wonder how hit lag is going to effect Crescent Slash. Does the 2 freeze frames make a difference when it comes to comboing or does it not?

Either way Dolphin Slash got buffed so I just gotta use that OoS option.

The hitlag modifier change on crescent slash only affects the initial 7% hitbox, so it shouldn't matter much at all. And it doesn't have anything to do with comboing, since hitlag occurs once the hit connects.

 

[Firefoxx]

I forget, do they eventually give DLC characters customs at some point?

They haven't yet, I seriously doubt they're going to start anytime soon.

Compared to everything else, customs have barely been touched since launch. And its not just in-game usage and balance stuff. You can still get duplicates when you're trying to unlock them, which just seems like a massive willful oversight at this point.

 

[Emblem Lord]

See and now I'm on the customs should be banned side. DLC chars not having customs is just unfair.

They should be banned. Its not even debatable anymore.

 

[Pacack]

See and now I'm on the customs should be banned side. DLC chars not having customs is just unfair.

They should be banned. Its not even debatable anymore.

It is still very debatable.

 

[NairWizard]

See and now I'm on the customs should be banned side. DLC chars not having customs is just unfair.

They should be banned. Its not even debatable anymore.

Ryu has customs.

They are just built into his default moveset.

 

[Lavani]

Ryu has customs.

They are just built into his default moveset.

Oh no, don't start with this or we're going to have people saying Ryu isn't allowed to use certain inputs with customization off.

 

[A_Kae]

Ryu has customs.

They are just built into his default moveset.

Those barely count as customs, with the exception of the multihit neutral special. All of them are just directly superior versions.

 

[wedl!!]

there are characters who essentially don't benefit from customs () and no one's said that they should be banned for that reason.

 

[NairWizard]

Those barely count as customs, with the exception of the multihit neutral special. All of them are just directly superior versions.

all of his non-smash grounded A moves have alternative versions, and they have way different uses (unless you can tell me with a straight face that heavy jab and weak jab do the same thing)

Ryu doesn't really miss customs--though of course anyone prefers even more options, he's already an option-rich character that puts his entire kit to use

the other DLC characters, though, they totally have nothing to go on, but for all we know their customs might have sucked anyway if they had been implemented

 

[A_Kae]

all of his non-smash grounded A moves have alternative versions, and they have way different uses (unless you can tell me with a straight face that heavy jab and weak jab do the same thing)

Ryu doesn't really miss customs--though of course anyone prefers even more options, he's already an option-rich character that puts his entire kit to use

the other DLC characters, though, they totally have nothing to go on, but for all we know their customs might have sucked anyway if they had been implemented

I didn't mean to imply that about his jab and tilts, just the specials.

Edit: I realize now that you weren't talking about the specials at all.

 

[san.]

My guesses:

Lucas: Would have Ness' specials

Roy:
Neutral B: Can't make it any better
Side B: Marth's aren't that great, doubt Roy's would be better
Up B: Roy's can already choose multiple directions
Down B: Roy's counter is already quite good

Ryu: Can't think of any replacements to his specials that will be better than the current version. It would also be time-intensive to make 2 more sets of customs with all those variations.

I could see Mewtwo benefiting from some customs with variations of projectiles and stun, though.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Emblem Lord

Life isn't fair, kid.

I play ROB, Kirby, Roy, and Ike, and these 4 aren't as "good" as characters like Sheik or Rosalina. The Sheik players have a distinct advantage over me, when I play them. That isn't "fair", right? But I'm not going to pout about fairness, in a fighting game, seeing that it is impossible to balance it anyway. The disadvantage is my fault because I main characters that aren't as good as the top tier. It's my fault if I play Roy, when he doesn't have custom moves.

 

[Goesasu]

there are characters who essentially don't benefit from customs () and no one's said that they should be banned for that reason.

jiggly has amazing side b options: the one that looks like pegasus ryu sei ken to custom jumping up b.
Easy to land killing combo.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm curious as to why DLC characters don't have customs. Was there ever an answer from the developers? I mean, Lucas having Ness's customs would be fine if they didn't want to work hard and Ryu's could have easily been based on Evil Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Gouken, or Dan. Ken and Akuma's would be the easiest as they'd be property changes. Roy could just have Marth and Ike mix and match customs. Oh well. Maybe in the future, but who knows.

On a completely unrelated note and maybe something that will be done with a future DLC character or even a Smash 5 character: what would a character be like of they're a floaty, but fast falling makes them a fast faller? I'm talking about something like Jigglypuff floaty and being able to transition to Fox fast fall. It'd be a commitment, but the vertical control would be amazing.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

It just seems so dumb that they give everyone else customs and not the DLC characters. Whether you like it or not, they automatically suffer to some extent in a customs environment.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm curious as to why DLC characters don't have customs. Was there ever an answer from the developers? I mean, Lucas having Ness's customs would be fine if they didn't want to work hard and Ryu's could have easily been based on Evil Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Gouken, or Dan. Ken and Akuma's would be the easiest as they'd be property changes. Roy could just have Marth and Ike mix and match customs. Oh well. Maybe in the future, but who knows.

On a completely unrelated note and maybe something that will be done with a future DLC character or even a Smash 5 character: what would a character be like of they're a floaty, but fast falling makes them a fast faller? I'm talking about something like Jigglypuff floaty and being able to transition to Fox fast fall. It'd be a commitment, but the vertical control would be amazing.

Laziness/Lack of ideas/Not wanting for people to have to go through the customs grind again. That's what I would assume.

 

[bc1910]

I haven't seen much of this in Smash thankfully, but there are some who would argue against DLC even being tournament legal because you have to pay for it, not all players will be able to use it or practice against it, etc etc. This includes Dreamland.

The customs argument isn't going anywhere. I would be sort of surprised but not shocked if the pro-Customs faction started moving toward banning DLC if them not having customs became a problem.

 

[S_B]

And Abadango is our lord and savior. I don't think anyone dislikes him.

Abadango just plays Pacman with so much HEART above all else. I want to see him wreck with customs. He deserves it.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I haven't seen much of this in Smash thankfully, but there are some who would argue against DLC even being tournament legal because you have to pay for it, not all players will be able to use it or practice against it, etc etc. This includes Dreamland.

At the very least, you can still fight against the DLC characters online, I believe.


Also, in regards to the DLC characters not having customs: The way I see it is that "they already have their optimal sets". So I pretend that they do have custom moves, but nobody uses them, because they are complete garbage. Or in Mewtwo's case, so broken that they had to be banned so hard that they were patched out of the game.

...and yes, I know I am heavily sugar-coating my opinion. lol


I agree with san. though. Even if the current DLC characters did have customs, they probably wouldn't have gotten much mileage out of them. Besides Mewtwo, and Lucas with Ness's PK Thunder.

But eh, I am not too bothered. Just work with, and make the most of what you have. It does suck for them in a customs environment, but aside from Palutena and a few other characters, customs usually aren't super game changers. Because at the end of the day, it is the character's normals, mobilily, and other statistics that are going to matter much more for them in a competitive setting. Customs can only do so much.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Whether 4 (and counting?) characters have customs or not should have no bearing on whether we allow the 51 other characters to use theirs.

Mind you, it would be fantastic if they did have customs. (Although Lucas at least would probably just get Ness's stuff. Bleh.) But saying that because Mewtwo et al don't have customs of their own, then literally no one in the cast should be allowed to use theirs comes across as sour grapes or something.

 

[Ffamran]

I haven't seen much of this in Smash thankfully, but there are some who would argue against DLC even being tournament legal because you have to pay for it, not all players will be able to use it or practice against it, etc etc. This includes Dreamland.

Really? Then EX Iori, EX Kyo, and Mr. Karate should be illegal in KoF XIII, Jill and Shuma-Gorath should be illegal in UMvC3 or MvC3, Street Fighter would be one divided mess of a community where each edition has its own following and opinions on the other, DLC characters of Mortal Kombat, PSASBR, Injustice, and whatnot should all be illegal, DLC weapons, skins, and maps should be illegal in tournaments for CoD, BF, and other shooters, etc. Come on, really? Some of the DLC is so irrelevant that it won't matter like how the Miiverse stage, especially if the system's offline is basically a white and green-trimmed Battlefield or how some DLC characters aren't even good. I would not be surprised if Mewtwo becomes irrelevant. Oh, and what happens when maybe 5 years along the line and Smash 4 gets a complete edition or hell, a "definitive edition" or a straight up port to the NX assuming it's a console? At that point, DLC is irrelevant because it's all packaged with the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This makes me wonder if the DLC characters will ever get customs.

Akuma's Fireballs for Ryu pl0x.

If Ryu ever got those we'd be in there. Air fireballs that go downwards?

Instant god tier


Real talk about Customs vs. None. Should never be all or nothing. Just hold side events for Customs-On if DLC Chars are that hotly debated in the community. Might as well foster and culture both sides, IMO. EVO though? I'm leaning towards no but the DLC chars sans Mewtwo are banned there so IDK.

 

[mimgrim]

If Ryu ever got those we'd be in there. Air fireballs that go downwards?

Instant god tier

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Das da idea.

 

[Woohoo982]

I know I probably shouldn't get involved, but how is Bowser good at all?

Seems like one of the worst characters in the game to me (and everyone else here, I'm pretty sure).

Big and tall, can't land ever, mediocre aerials (b-air has power yeah but landing it is unnecessarily difficult). A pretty good poke game, I guess, with jab, ground speed, pivot options and Fire Breath, but seems to be the very definition of mediocrity otherwise.

Bowser's been buffed, hard. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, he has an easy shield break, and b-air has da POWER

 

[PUK]

Bowser's been buffed, hard. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, he has an easy shield break, and b-air has da POWER

what?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Honestly, i don't want any character or customs to get banned. We'd end up backtracking as a community, and no one wants to undo the hard work we've done. I rather not think about the word "ban" at this point.

 

[NairWizard]

Bowser's been buffed, hard. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, he has an easy shield break, and b-air has da POWER

....a better up-tilt is a hard buff? Explain.

 

[wedl!!]

Bowser got buffed, hard. Aside from the reason you mentioned, he has an easy shield break, and b-air has da POWER

not to mention they're incredibly difficult to land? those aren't really defining strengths of the character, more like things that are kind of lumped in. to paraphrase @Thinkaman again, ease of use is the difference between 's utilt and his usmash.

also, didn't get "hard buffs". he didn't get meta-shifting changes like or, just minor improvement-of-life things. he still isn't top half of the cast.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Emblem Lord is right about customs. 4 DLC characters without customs is pretty significant. I can't support customs if their not going to be given to DLC characters.