Character Competitive Impressions

[Ryu_Ken]

You know, if i were to make a tier list, i'd put everyone under "viable."

 

[Zelder]

Why does MK have such even matchups despite being consistently placed in mid to low tier in speculation lists?

EDIT: This sort of sounds like I'm challenging your opinion, which I'm not. Genuinely curious.

I'm talking about Brawl (though I could have also said Fox & Falco in Melee).

And Meta Knight did have even or better matchups with everyone in Brawl. Which is why I'm skeptical of Pac mains stating that's the case for their character (aside from Pika, Shiek and maybe Sonic).

You know, if i were to make a tier list, i'd put everyone under "viable."

Everyone except for Zelda and Samus, yeah.

 

[Sodo]

I'm talking about Brawl.

And Meta Knight did have even or better matchups with everyone in Brawl. Which is why I'm skeptical of Pac mains stating that's the case for their character (aside from Pika, Shiek and maybe Sonic).

Haha see I was confused because there have been some discussions on here about Meta Knight actually having pretty even matchups with a majority of the cast in Sm4sh, but it's all just discussion and theorycraft at this point. I like MK in this game though so I'm hoping there's something to what they're talking about.

 

[Nu~]

I'm talking about Brawl (though I could have also said Fox & Falco in Melee).

And Meta Knight did have even or better matchups with everyone in Brawl. Which is why I'm skeptical of Pac mains stating that's the case for their character (aside from Pika, Shiek and maybe Sonic).

And yet you have people in this game claiming that shiek has even better matchups than that.

Maybe Pac-Man is a secret top tier, maybe he isn't, but let's not compare him to the most overpowered character in smash history based on matchups alone (especially when a seemingly less overpowered character has better matchups than him)

 

[Asdioh]

I'm going to a pretty stacked 70 person tournament tomorrow (this should be the stream link) and while I'm there I'll try to MM every Sheik I can find and prove that the matchup is in Kirby's favor. I believe it unarguably is as long as Kirby's holding Sheik's power, but outside of that it's up for debate. At least it's easier to get Inhale on Sheik than it is on many other characters, where you just get stabbed in the mouth by a sword or something before you get the chance to get their power.
And if I lose most of the MMs, I'll just blame my own lack of skill, rather than the matchup.

You aren't allowed to place tier lists here btw.

You kinda can, as long as there's explanation and justification to go along with it.

Also Kirby is defitenely top 15 AT THE LEAST, even top 10 if more people use him, and do good with it.

Even if more people used Kirby, I think he'd have a harder time solo winning tournaments than... ... ok that's plenty more than 15, and I could argue for some others, I think you get the point.

At the very least though, I believe he has decent-to-good matchups against some of those characters, including (combos them into oblivion because they're fastfallers, avoids some of their key attacks because they're tall), and since the nerfs.
Forever misery against though. Too fast, too fast, too fast/high priority, and Olimar's zoning game is extremely difficult to get around... I think. Don't see many Olimars, maybe because he's a boring stupid character
There are other frequent high-placing characters I'm unsure if Kirby can do well against or not, such as ... there are some tools each character has against each other in the matchup, but I don't see it played often enough at a high level (very few high level Kirby mains exist) that it's hard to say how it would really play out.

 

[Ulevo]

Haha see I was confused because there have been some discussions on here about Meta Knight actually having pretty even matchups with a majority of the cast in Sm4sh, but it's all just discussion and theorycraft at this point. I like MK in this game though so I'm hoping there's something to what they're talking about.

He does, for the most part. Different Meta Knight mains have different opinions on which match ups we lose, but the general consensus is that nearly every match up is at worse 4:6 and most of them are 5:5 or better. There are one or two match ups, disregarding the latest patch, that have Meta Knight players believe they are 3:7. I have heard Sonic, I have heard ZSS, I have heard Captain Falcon from Ito, though I think this one is an exaggeration on his part.

He is a very skill oriented character with his match up spreads. If you lost or won, it was because of you.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm going to a pretty stacked 70 person tournament tomorrow (this should be the stream link) and while I'm there I'll try to MM every Sheik I can find and prove that the matchup is in Kirby's favor. I believe it unarguably is as long as Kirby's holding Sheik's power, but outside of that it's up for debate. At least it's easier to get Inhale on Sheik than it is on many other characters, where you just get stabbed in the mouth by a sword or something before you get the chance to get their power.
And if I lose most of the MMs, I'll just blame my own lack of skill, rather than the matchup.
You kinda can, as long as there's explanation and justification to go along with it.
Even if more people used Kirby, I think he'd have a harder time solo winning tournaments than... ... ok that's plenty more than 15, and I could argue for some others, I think you get the point.

At the very least though, I believe he has decent-to-good matchups against some of those characters, including (combos them into oblivion because they're fastfallers, avoids some of their key attacks because they're tall), and since the nerfs.
Forever misery against though. Too fast, too fast, too fast/high priority, and Olimar's zoning game is extremely difficult to get around... I think. Don't see many Olimars, maybe because he's a boring stupid character
There are other frequent high-placing characters I'm unsure if Kirby can do well against or not, such as ... there are some tools each character has against each other in the matchup, but I don't see it played often enough at a high level (very few high level Kirby mains exist) that it's hard to say how it would really play out.

Defitenly not Ike, the Pits, Olimar, and Mr. Game & Watch

Edit:Not Mii Brawler either

Edit2:100th Post

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I hear a lot of talk about how Roy is just a vastly superior version of Marth, which I don't buy at all. I think his sword mechanics are virtually incompatible with high-level play, and as soon as his novelty wears off and his gimmicks are exposed, he'll be sub-Marth yet again.

 

[Asdioh]

Defitenly not Ike, the Pits, Olimar, and Mr. Game & Watch

Edit:Not Mii Brawler either

All of those characters (except probably Ike) have been placing well in tournaments though... and Ike just received massive buffs, so we'll have to watch out for that.





edit: http://smashboards.com/threads/luca...notes-17th-19-30.406319/page-19#post-19454998 lists no change for Sonic besides Upsmash, but I keep hearing that his Downair is now safer offstage... what's the truth?

 

[GeneralLedge]

I hear a lot of talk about how Roy is just a vastly superior version of Marth, which I don't buy at all. I think his sword mechanics are virtually incompatible with high-level play, and as soon as his novelty wears off and his gimmicks are exposed, he'll be sub-Marth yet again.

I think Roy has some severe merits, but isn't necessarily better or worse than Marth. Rather, I don't think there's a close enough comparison between the two to really argue. It would be like comparing Mario to Luigi at this point.

 

[Ulevo]

I hear a lot of talk about how Roy is just a vastly superior version of Marth, which I don't buy at all. I think his sword mechanics are virtually incompatible with high-level play, and as soon as his novelty wears off and his gimmicks are exposed, he'll be sub-Marth yet again.

Low recovery disjointed aerials, fast aerial and ground movement, good ground normals, a super armor and invincible Blazer that kills out of shield, a pummel that nets you 2-6% additional damage reliably on every grab, solid frame traps, good grab range, a throw that sets up combos and 50/50 mix ups from 0 to high %, a throw that kills, and you believe this character will be virtually incompatible at high level play? His only obvious weaknesses is his lack of kill confirms and poor recovery, and that certainly is not stopping Mario from performing.

I am not confident on my opinion on Marth. I do not know how drastically these recent changes have improved him. I do know this post reeks of the irrational.

 

[Pacack]

I'm talking about Brawl (though I could have also said Fox & Falco in Melee).

And Meta Knight did have even or better matchups with everyone in Brawl. Which is why I'm skeptical of Pac mains stating that's the case for their character (aside from Pika, Shiek and maybe Sonic).

A lot are highly argued and could be considered at least 45:55 in the opponent's favor. But Pac-Man is very adaptable, so none of them are horrible if you know how to adapt your playstyle.

Hard-Hitters (countered with juggling and fruit):


Speedy Characters (countered by trampoline):


Characters with Reliable Reflectors (countered with close-quarters fighting):


Characters that can beat us at our camping/projectile game (difficult to counter, but possible; depends on the character):


Characters that render our hydrant and/or fruit useless through absorption (counters are very specific to the character):

 

[Firefoxx]

Wait, how exactly do Pac's close range options deal with Fox or Mario? Or even 1.0.8 Falco for that matter?

 

[oldkingcroz]

After playing Game and Watch for about a solid 400-500 matches (local tournaments, training, for glory), I can honestly say he is very difficult to use in mid level play. His windboxes and invincibility moves are very technical, he heavily relies on edge guarding, he can duck certain moves, and lingering hit boxes take time getting used to. He has some great moves (Up air, sprint attack, tilts) and good customs, but the character is just really weird and requires much more practice than it's worth to play him. He has a lot of potential, but is definitely not a character that beginners/mid level players should play.

 

[Nu~]

A lot are highly argued and could be considered at least 45:55 in the opponent's favor. But Pac-Man is very adaptable, so none of them are horrible if you know how to adapt your playstyle.

Hard-Hitters (countered with juggling and fruit):


Speedy Characters (countered by trampoline):


Characters with Reliable Reflectors (countered with close-quarters fighting):


Characters that can beat us at our own camping/projectile game (difficult to counter, but possible; depends on the character):


Characters that render our hydrant and/or fruit useless through absorption (counters are very specific to the character):

Against ROB, you have to go in. It's very tedious, but we can take advantage of his blind spot very well with our SH retreating fair and apple.

Link and toon link are another battle of patience and power shielding. Haven't fought enough link mains to really describe the matchup yet.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Low recovery disjointed aerials, fast aerial and ground movement, good ground normals, a super armor and invincible Blazer that kills out of shield, a pummel that nets you 2-6% additional damage reliably on every grab, solid frame traps, good grab range, a throw that sets up combos and 50/50 mix ups from 0 to high %, a throw that kills, and you believe this character will be virtually incompatible at high level play? His only obvious weaknesses is his lack of kill confirms and poor recovery, and that certainly is not stopping Mario from performing.

I am not confident on my opinion on Marth. I do not know how drastically these recent changes have improved him. I do know this post reeks of the irrational.

Nothing you just said is precisely incorrect, but it isn't the truth, either. It sounds like parroting to me. The part of a disjointed hitbox that matters most is the part outside of your hurtbox. If your sword range is less than another character's jab range, then I guess you'll have to be godlike 100% of the time and only aim for extended hurtboxes.

His grab game is good, but the best characters don't need 50/50s. Sheik's 50/50 scenario is a voluntary alternative to guaranteed % and nets a kill at ridiculously early percents with up-B. Roy's 50/50s net him some more %, which isn't where he struggles. And pummels, lol. Okay, fine, he has good pummels.

I just don't see how he has a single safe move to throw out in any state that isn't already advantaged. His best approach is basically grab, and his kill throw isn't good enough to make him as viable as other characters who rely on grabs.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Wait... Robin has a decent MU against Pacman? I'm all ears.

 

[Pacack]

Wait, how exactly do Pac's close range options deal with Fox or Mario? Or even 1.0.8 Falco for that matter?

It deals with the reflector specifically, but those matchups require all of Pac-Man's tools to make even. It's less close range options than it is all of his options, specifically his close range when the reflectors are used.

Wait... Robin has a decent MU against Pacman? I'm all ears.

As someone who plays Robin mains a lot, yes. The projectiles that Robin has access to completely shut down all of our projectiles and our hydrant, but going in allows them to use the Levin Sword (which out-ranges us) for massive damage and earlier kills than Pac-Man has access to. Robin just doesn't have to work as hard against Pac-Man as Robin has to work against Robin.

Our main way to counter that is our superior speed, our trampoline, and our better recovery.

 

[Ffamran]

Speedy Characters (countered by trampoline):

Speedy Characters (countered by trampoline):

What? The only thing Falco is fast in is hitting things or getting beat up. He's one of the slowest-moving characters in the game despite being pretty much a melee-orientated character. His walk speed is at this time, ranked 10 which if Roy's an indication, Falco won't have be in the top 10 of walk speed. Pac-Man runs faster than Falco.

 

[Pacack]

What? The only thing Falco is fast in is hitting things or getting beat up. He's one of the slowest-moving characters in the game despite being pretty much a melee-orientated character. His walk speed is at this time, ranked 10 which if Roy's an indication, Falco won't have be in the top 10 of walk speed. Pac-Man runs faster than Falco.

Oops.

You're completely right; he should not be there. My apologies.

 

[Ulevo]

Nothing you just said is precisely incorrect, but it isn't the truth, either. It sounds like parroting to me. The part of a disjointed hitbox that matters most is the part outside of your hurtbox. If your sword range is less than another character's jab range, then I guess you'll have to be godlike 100% of the time and only aim for extended hurtboxes.

His grab game is good, but the best characters don't need 50/50s. Sheik's 50/50 scenario is a voluntary alternative to guaranteed % and nets a kill at ridiculously early percents with up-B. Roy's 50/50s net him some more %, which isn't where he struggles. And pummels, lol. Okay, fine, he has good pummels.

I just don't see how he has a single safe move to throw out in any state that isn't already advantaged. His best approach is basically grab, and his kill throw isn't good enough to make him as viable as other characters who rely on grabs.

Parroting? These are my opinions formed on the time I have spent playing with the character. Quite frankly I do not trust most of the opinions on these boards on face value even if they come from respectable players.

Regardless. You have some reasonable but irrelevant points. Whether or not the best characters, like Sheik, need a mix up does not take away the fact that having it increases the potential and viability of the character. As for his neutral problems, spaced forward air to double jump, spaced fast fall forward air, walking options in to down tilt or standard attack, pivot grabs and frame traps with Flare Blade and Double Edge Dance are all good approaches at your disposal. You need to space tightly, but this is more or less a Fire Emblem characteristic to the Smash series. His speed makes up for a lot of the flaws that would otherwise be present in this neutral state.

As for the up throw, it is not amazing by itself. It helps to compliment his issue he has with kill confirms. Once characters begin climbing in %, certain characters struggle to land knock outs, and Roy does not have a problem with this because of how quickly he deals damage in a stock and how both Rage and a low ceiling can compliment this. A lot of the benefit is attributed to his pummel. You laugh at this point, but it is a bigger deal than it seems. At mid %, you can consistently add 6% to every throw you land. His down throw does 7% on its own, making that 13% just from the throw alone without any follow up. When you consider how many grabs you land in a game, it adds up quickly.

 

[Wintermelon43]

All of those characters (except probably Ike) have been placing well in tournaments though... and Ike just received massive buffs, so we'll have to watch out for that.





edit: http://smashboards.com/threads/luca...notes-17th-19-30.406319/page-19#post-19454998 lists no change for Sonic besides Upsmash, but I keep hearing that his Downair is now safer offstage... what's the truth?

But that's an act of usage, not the character itself. If he was used more, he'd be the 10th best, he has potentntial

 

[Shaky]

VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky
2) ESAM
3) MVD
4) 8Bitman
5) Dath
5) NickRiddle
7) Phuzix
7) True Blue

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you ). FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks wins the MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some .

Unfortunately, there was not much on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the that beat Seibrik).

I actually said the region order was NY/NJ > FL > WC> Midwest.

 

[Djent]

@ Shaky sorry I guess I misunderstood you, let me fix the post.

edit: http://smashboards.com/threads/luca...notes-17th-19-30.406319/page-19#post-19454998 lists no change for Sonic besides Upsmash, but I keep hearing that his Downair is now safer offstage... what's the truth?

Thinkaman's data dump does not include IASA frames and endlag changes.

 

[NairWizard]

holy hell I just touched Meta Knight again for the first time after the patch

how is this character not the best in the game now?

*only partial exaggeration*

 

[Ryu_Ken]

holy hell I just touched Meta Knight again for the first time after the patch

how is this character not the best in the game now?

*only partial exaggeration*

Give him the ability to fly, and he'll be the best, no questions asked.

 

[FullMoon]

I can't tell if the Pacman list up there forgot Greninja or if he just isn't "countered" by the trampoline since pretty much every fast character except him was listed.

Greninja so ninja he disappears from everybody's minds.

 

[Pacack]

I can't tell if the Pacman list up there forgot Greninja or if he just isn't "countered" by the trampoline since pretty much every fast character except him was listed.

Greninja so ninja he disappears from everybody's minds.

I've never personally had issues with Greninja as Pac-Man, actually, but that may change with the new patch. Need more experience.

 

[FullMoon]

I doubt a F-Tilt buff is going to affect that MU much

Amusingly I never struggled much with Pac-Man myself and I played some pretty good ones

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Does Pacman have one of the best dash attacks in the game? It's hard to punish on reaction and it can start combos.

Not when Fox's dash attack exists.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Low recovery disjointed aerials, fast aerial and ground movement, a pummel that nets you 2-6% additional damage reliably on every grab, good grab range, a throw that sets up combos and 50/50 mix ups from 0 to high %, a throw that kills

I would like to highlight these points in particular to discuss one particular strength that Roy has. And that is I feel as though that he might have one of the best empty jumps in the game.

With the combination of fast movement speed (both on the ground and in the air), a good grab and grab game, fast falling speed, and one of the lowest shorthops in the game besides Dr. Mario; Roy can go in for a grab after a shorthop faster than almost any other character. And he can cover a good amount of distance to go in for that grab thanks to his mobility specs. And this is further compounded by having good aerials that can force opponents to put up their shield...even though they aren't really safe on shield and just have low landing lag.

Combine that with the good rewards Roy can get when he does land a grab, that means that his empty jumps -> grab is one of the best in the game. In my opinion, anyways. It is one of my favorite things about the character.

Edit: And even if you roll away, he still has a high chance of catching you, thanks to his ground mobility.

 

[DblCrest]

I can't tell if the Pacman list up there forgot Greninja or if he just isn't "countered" by the trampoline since pretty much every fast character except him was listed.

Greninja so ninja he disappears from everybody's minds.

This has me wondering can you use Shadow Sneak to go past the grounded trampoline? o.o;

 

[NachoOfCheese]

A lot are highly argued and could be considered at least 45:55 in the opponent's favor. But Pac-Man is very adaptable, so none of them are horrible if you know how to adapt your playstyle.

Hard-Hitters (countered with juggling and fruit):


Speedy Characters (countered by trampoline):


Characters with Reliable Reflectors (countered with close-quarters fighting):


Characters that can beat us at our camping/projectile game (difficult to counter, but possible; depends on the character):


Characters that render our hydrant and/or fruit useless through absorption (counters are very specific to the character):

Look I get that Pac Man is good and all but to say he counters FOX at close quarters fighting is pushing it.
And trampoline counters ZSS? Plz.

 

[FullMoon]

This has me wondering can you use Shadow Sneak to go past the grounded trampoline? o.o;

Yes.

 

[Pacack]

I doubt a F-Tilt buff is going to affect that MU much

Amusingly I never struggled much with Pac-Man myself and I played some pretty good ones

I don't have much experience, so I cannot speak on the matchup. Perhaps another Pac-Man player would be of better assistance in this case.

Look I get that Pac Man is good and all but to say he counters FOX at close quarters fighting is pushing it.
And trampoline counters ZSS? Plz.

He doesn't. The close quarters counters his reflector specifically. The trampoline is more vital in that matchup.

Trampoline forces specific actions to be taken by our opponents, which makes our opponents' actions far more predictable. It's not 100% by any means, but it's definitely notable.

In ZSS's case specifically, though, the hydrant puts in serious work as well.

 

[Nu~]

Yes.

Which is weird considering it interrupts every other teleport (MK cape, Zelda Farore, palutena teleport)

@ Pacack
Me and FullMoon have fought many times, the matchup is pretty even tbh. Greninja struggles against our neutral game, but he can rush us down very well once he finally makes it through. Things for both players to take advantage of are greninja vs Pac-Man's recovery, and us vs. greninja's poor OoS game.

It's a very fun matchup

 

[Pacack]

Which is weird considering it interrupts every other teleport (MK cape, Zelda Farore, palutena teleport)

Shadow Sneak goes under the trampoline, I believe.

 

[FullMoon]

The F-Tilt buff does help Greninja against Pac's CQC at least.

The main problem Greninja has with Pac-Man in the MU is the hydrant, trampoline actually doesn't affect him much from my experience.

Though at least Greninja is Pac's personal nightmare offstage. The day I found Hydro Pump wrecks Power Pellet was pretty fun.

 

[san.]

How much lag does Pac-Man receive once he starts trampoline? There were times where Pac-Man used it and I just used the trampoline or jumped over it and hit him as he was suffering landing lag. Is there an optimal way to do it or does Pac-Man have to start this far away from the opponent?

 

[Pacack]

How much lag does Pac-Man receive once he starts trampoline? There were times where Pac-Man used it and I just used the trampoline or jumped over it and hit him as he was suffering landing lag. Is there an optimal way to do it or does Pac-Man have to start this far away from the opponent?

There is no optimal way. You just have to do it as far away as possible from the opponent.