Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

Quick post-patch impressions of some changed characters:

The little monkey will live, and I suspect N-air will become his friend with the normalization of U-air (it's still good!)
If MK was on the verge of rocking with the big boys pre-patch, he most certainly can now.
Zelda is likely still bad, but watching Nairo's just became that much more fun.
I suspect the G&W buff will help A LOT. A fast, killing disjoint? Yes please.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

King of cheese? Lol what.
Fly is just another variant of shoryuken.
Be still my beating heart his wings are disjointed.
Dat there what 80 frame rock smash, much cheese like whatever.

Zards jab is great his Super armor frames start-up is akin to that of other normal moves startups. That just means he has feasible options with high:risk; high reward for trades that are actually practical. If anything charizard heavily supports going for trades where he ultimately comes out on top with rage and his weight. The new Uthrow cements that better then his D-throw did since the kill option doesn't weaken on Stage position.
I see no cheese. Zards a "fast heavy" on the groubd with prominent tools for reads due not only in part to range, and grab range but the SA to counter-act the fast pokes other characters may have withf4 and f5 armor. This isn't an inability to do damage. It's getting smacked around hard when he flops despite having quick enough options between grab,jab, SA to fight in the first place.

Home boy is going nowhere but up

 

[Radical Larry]

Lucas is going to he a big problem against huge heavyweights aside from Ganondorf as D-Throw > N-Air (Repeat) can be a zero-to-death combo on them. D-Throw > U-Smash is very, very effective on all characters at lower damages. He's also got a superb edge-guarding game with two meteors, a multi-hitting down smash and options to cover against the opponents. I also found PK Freeze to be a very valuable asset to Lucas, especially his edge-guarding game, where opponents will likely try to air dodge the attack. Opponents like Little Mac and Ryu will either be hit or suffer from their poor vertical recoveries.

With combos, I can find a few throw combos already:
D-Throw > N-Air/U-Smash/F-Air/U-Air
U-Throw > U-Smash/F-Air
F-Throw > F-Air/N-Air
B-Throw > F-Air/N-Air/B-Air

Now, for those who are confused, the slash means you can perform one attack or the other.

Lucas' D-Tilt happens to be a very great one for setting up to his jab combo or F-Tilt, and even his very quick F-Smash. Characters who are blocked by Lucas' shield will definitely get punished if they pull out a slower attack or miss a grab, because F-Smash is just that good. With U-Smash, Lucas can just cover against any character who decides to recover vertically thanks to the two hitboxes he has with U-Smash that link up to one another. It's a very devastating move to say the least, and if you manage to use PK Freeze to follow up into U-Smash, it could result in a KO.

PK Fire is a great spacing tool for Lucas, too. Deals out a good amount of damage and knockback and can lead up into other attacks very well. PSI Magnet is also better than Ness' by a long shot due to its extra range and ability to actually hurt the opponent. But PK Thunder needs to be treated with caution; you cannot pull it out like Ness's, you need to pull it out like you were Lucas. However, it's got a great edge-guarding capability and if you time it right off the edge of the stage, you could actually end up KO'ing an opponent who wanted an impromptu Meteor Smash. It's also very amazing due to having the ability to move around after the recovery reaches its peak, something some characters need (cough, Toon Link, cough).

Overall, my opinion is that Lucas will be a high tier at lowest, and upper high at lowest, possibly around the top 7 to 20.

Okay, this guy, this guy has just been buffed in a good way this time. For those who have been doubting Link, doubt no more as he is fully capable of an actual good grab game now, especially with D-Throw > U-Smash/U-Tilt. No matter the DI, D-Throw > U-Smash/U-Tilt at low damages will still link up together, as I've noticed when fighting opponents. This means Link technically has two U-Throws now (since D-Throw acts like U-Throw); one for combos and one for killing the opponent. If that wasn't enough, Link's grab, as we all know, has been extended for twice the range and to the end until it droops down. This means he can truly and effectively grab opponents in the air and at distances, making footsies an even more unsafe thing against him. If you try to approach him now, it's going to be extremely hard due to the chances of either being grabbed or being hit with another attack.

Talking more about his throws before his grab v. Super Armor attacks, Link's D-Throw can also link into N-Air, U-Air and F-Air at more moderate and higher damages. Thanks to D-Throw being able to throw opponents forward now, these attacks are very effective after coming out. U-Throw is also a good move to Link up into U-Air, and can be a somewhat devastating at higher damages due to Link's hugely disjointed hitbox on U-Air.

Attacks that use Super Armor beware, this is your worst nightmare now. You can't simply rush up at Link anymore with a Super Armor attack, he can and will grab you out of it and if the right Link is used, he can combo you to Kingdom Come. Attacks like Flare Blitz, Mac's Smashes and Jet Hammer won't be of any use if Link uses his grab. They will actually be practically useless now against him unless he misses the grab. A better option would to be to find some space and actually try finding a way around Link's grab. But remember, his grab is still quick, so you better time it all right.

Also, I feel like B-Throw > D-Air should see a lot more usage in the future in terms of Link's edge throwing. This is because B-Throw has a trajectory that could help link up into D-Air, which I honestly believe has improved reach once more.

With the grab buff, Link doesn't seem like a low tier, but rather an upper middle or a lower high tier character, around the top 20-24. His grab is something that helps him out in a lot of match ups now, especially with opponents who he formerly had half the grab range to. And with hopefully more buffs to come from him, I look forward to playing as him a lot more.

 

[Smog Frog]

and rule as the king and queen of smash 4. does anyone else feel that way?

is what happens when we overuse bug spray and get a mosquito that you cant repel. needles are ****ing obnoxious, as is fair.

now let me talk about . when we take into account the light/heavy inputs and the arcade inputs for specials, you realize he has roughly twice as many options than the rest of the cast. these options arent bad either! they either kill or combo into kill moves, or they have some special property like strong ftilt(collarbone breaker)breaking shields. he likely has the most combos of anyone in smash 4, that all either end in a kill move or put you in an awful position. his footsies are only rivaled by , and he has actual recovery and air game. not to mention, he has the dp, arguably the best punish in the game, and he can 0-death heavyweights(infinite isnt the right word since focus attack moves you and the victim forward, closer to the edge)with little effort, essentially invalidating /. customs may be a different story, but with the 0-death it was the final nail in the coffin for them in non-customs. i dont see whats keeping from top tier aside from a little trouble with disjoints and subpar mobility for a top tier. but if people think is top 5 largely based off his reward, then it wouldnt surprise me if has a case for top 2 in the game.

 

[DunnoBro]

The new helium mechanics seem to nerf villager's custom stall pretty hard. He can still regrab, but he has no time to mix-up his grab due to a lack of helium so it's a more guaranteed punish/spike now.

Also, if he gets knocked off far enough he'll just die. I remember I used to be able to stage spike them with zigzag to force them off, but they'd still come back. Now, they can't come back at higher percents.

This makes me notice most of the problematic customs are problems because of mechanics more than the move itself.

Kong cyclone - Platform canceling
HSB - Smash charge
Villager - Ledge mechanics
Lightweight - Infinite lightweight
Helicopter kick - Mii fighter mechanics

I can't think of a single custom that's straightforward in usage and extremely busted. I.e something that any tester could run through and be like "Oh, this shouldn't exist" except maybe stun jolt if they stopped to think "Hey, wonder if it can combo into itself...!"

(Though I stand by the notion stun jolt is mostly an issue because of HSB to begin with.)

 

[PUK]

We finally killed the terminator, the world is saved

 

[exnecross]

From what I've experienced, I am thoroughly unconvinced that Ryu will change the meta as much as people are predicting, if at all.

 

[DunnoBro]

I stand by my opinion of pikachu being the #1 most problematic (and best) character in customs. Smash charge essentially makes HSB an unpunishable rest on a character that can camp/safely set up for it with projectiles.

The fact he has an easy infinite, but also a glitchy ass kill move that makes going for the infinite non-optimal is scary. Not to mention his default specials are pretty busted, too.

Pikachu is irrefutably the best character in customs in my opinion. Sheik also suffers from the punish, out of shield, and overall superior options of characters in a custom format.

 

[exnecross]

I stand by my opinion of pikachu being the #1 most problematic character in customs. Smash charge essentially makes HSB an unpunishable rest on a character that can camp/safely set up for it with projectiles.

The fact he has an easy infinite, but also a glitchy *** kill move that makes going for the infinite non-optimal is scary. Not to mention his default specials are pretty busted, too.

Pikachu is irrefutably the best character in customs in my opinion. Sheik also suffers from the punish, out of shield, and overall superior options of characters in a custom format.

I agree, and I would also be so bold as to say that even without customs, Pikachu could seriously be the best character in the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

From what I've experienced, I am thoroughly unconvinced that Ryu will change the meta as much as people are predicting, if at all.

Not meta changing, but def. a good char. I don't think he's going to drastically alter it at all, but I DO think as a character he works surprisingly well. Very solid character who only promises to get better as his options are explored.

I'm inclined to agree about Customs Pika being STUPIDDDD

 

[Luigi player]

People really need to stop saying that Charizards uthrow is stronger than Mewtwos... because it's not, as long as you have an opponent that knows how to DI, at least.

I've tested these in training mode while DIing with the other character:

Mewtwos uthrow KOs Roy at 139 %
Charizards uthrow KOs Roy at 163 %
Lucas' uthrow KOs Roy at 152 %

Lucas' uthrow is now a pretty good killmove, although getting the grab might be difficult for him.

What makes Charizards uthrow dangerous (and better on some places) is if there are platforms, these really help him. Especially on Dreamland 64, BF, Delfino, ...

I've always wanted his uthrow to be a killthrow and it's great they changed that. Now he can even combo better than before by using his dthrow. It's really nice how the developers try to give characters a few grab combos and stuff...


A little bit about Lucas:
As of now it seems he is a little underrated by some people. I don't think he's top, but at least a good mid tier, maybe even low high or something around there. His fsmash is great (a fast killmove that reflects projectiles? yes please), his jab is great (still frame 2, hits a little behind him and drags opponents into the other hits even if you've hit them behind you, it's really great and just like in Brawl). His PKFire is still a safe projectile that you can spam and his dthrow is a really great setup for combos.

It's really weird that his PKT has so much endinglag (without hitting yourself)... with Ness you can juggle really well with it, but with Lucas it's pretty unsafe... but I think his biggest problem/downfall will be his grab, which is REALLY laggy, even the pivotgrab, and it doesn't grab spotdodges like ZSS' grab. So that really holds him back a little... also, his uair hitbox is almost not there, which is a little sad as well.
Although I never use his zair because I don't really play tether characters much.. and people say that's pretty good so that helps him too.

I can't wait to see what really good Brawl Lucas' players like Mekos will do with this character.

 

[exnecross]

Not meta changing, but def. a good char. I don't think he's going to drastically alter it at all, but I DO think as a character he works surprisingly well. Very solid character who only promises to get better as his options are explored.

I'm inclined to agree about Customs Pika being STUPIDDDD

Oh yes, of course Ryu's potential is completely unknown at the moment, but being the cynical person I am, I'm not seeing Ryu going very far. Naturally any bold predictions at the moment are nothing but guesswork.

I guess if anything I can say this: people have been raving over his crazy focus combos and setups, but damn if it isn't punishable. I feel like people won't be going for it all that much once things develop.

 

[bc1910]

Living until 150 because you're a tank and then killing them at 100 or lower with a grab is pretty ****ing cheesy.

DI won't help you survive Zard's Uthrow if you're relatively close to a ledge, DI just puts you over the right/left blastzone. It's sometimes better than Mewtwo's and sometimes worse.

 

[Terotrous]

I think the reason people are calling Zard's UThrow stronger than M2's is because of Rage. M2 doesn't tend to live super long, while Charizard is usually pushing at least 130%.

 

[Gamegenie222]

We finally killed the terminator, the world is saved

You just delayed his/her return.

 

[Blobface]

Wasn't that whole "heavyweight infinite" Ryu had de-confirmed? IIRC you could literally just roll out of it.

Besides, nothing should ever be called an infinite/0-to-death until it's actually implemented outside of training mode.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Someone link me some little mac videos, KO punch shenanigans, aerial combos and whatnot. I have friends who still think he's awful, which is a sentiment i wholly disagree with

Just a showcase of what Little Mac can do in the right hands:

 

[Radical Larry]

To be honest, Ryu would have a lot of problems against opponents with projectiles and/or powerful or multi-hitting attacks. He might have things to cover footsies, but remember, he can easily be hit out of it all. Focus Attack might be good when you're close, but if the opponent hits you with a powerful and quick attack, or a multi-hitter (go above Ganondorf, for instance, or go against Shulk's F-Tilt or F-Smash), it's rather useless to use since it only has SA for one hit. Using attacks like Mewtwo or Lucas' N-Air or Link's F-Air or B-Air will defeat the purpose of the attack. That and he can easily get grabbed from it or even punished with its high end lag.

He's good, but he's not the MU's best character, nor is he MU changing. Top tier doesn't really seem that right for him, so upper high tier will be his best, in my opinion.

Remember, it's way too early to tell things, everyone.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest, Ryu would have a lot of problems against opponents with projectiles and/or powerful or multi-hitting attacks. He might have things to cover footsies, but remember, he can easily be hit out of it all. Focus Attack might be good when you're close, but if the opponent hits you with a powerful and quick attack, or a multi-hitter (go above Ganondorf, for instance, or go against Shulk's F-Tilt or F-Smash), it's rather useless to use since it only has SA for one hit. Using attacks like Mewtwo or Lucas' N-Air or Link's F-Air or B-Air will defeat the purpose of the attack. That and he can easily get grabbed from it or even punished with its high end lag.

He's good, but he's not the MU's best character, nor is he MU changing. Top tier doesn't really seem that right for him, so upper high tier will be his best, in my opinion.

Remember, it's way too early to tell things, everyone.

Focus Attack is best used for the dash cancel. FADC (especially the aerial variant which avoids grabs) gives Ryu a free mixup of approaching or retreating. Its armor, while only for one hit, is extremely useful for landing and approaching since he can absorb the hit and punish or reset to neutral. He gets through certain projectiles easier with it, and its not like the Ryu player will spam FA so much that the opponent will read it all the time and use a multi hit move.

 

[san.]

I'm not buying into the Ryu hype just yet. How can he be one of the best if he lacks, to my knowledge:

-Good disadvantage
-Good throw game
-High+ tier projectile
-Extreme movement speed

He has quite a bit of close quarters tools, but he doesn't seem that scary without some of these. Has any frame data for Ryu been analyzed yet?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just for reference, here is the first frame of Ledge Jump vulnerability for the whole cast:

http://imgur.com/a/80K1J

Step your coverage game up.

 

[Ulevo]

I do not understand how people think Ryu lacks good movement. You cannot compare him to Sonic, Pikachu and Sheik and say he does not have good movement. Those are extreme examples. He has good jump heights, good run and walk speed, and good fast fall speed. He is pretty quick in neutral if he needs to be.

Also, I am not going to say his disadvantaged state is great, but being able to use TSRK and kill people post 90% on reaction from a distance that beats disjoints like Roy's sword is pretty devastating.

 

[NairWizard]

Ryu is anti-air: the character. He has so many normals that are really good at discouraging aerial approaches that any character that relies on short hop aerials to approach is going to have some degree of trouble against him.

However, this advantage is somewhat mitigated by the observation that among high/top tiers, there's only one character who absolutely needs short hops in order to approach: Mario. Sheik, ZSS, Falcon, Pikachu, etc. can all play slow safe ground games against Ryu instead.

And on the flipside, as much as you can say, "you can't touch Ryu's shield or you lose," you can just as easily say, "Ryu can't touch your shield or he loses." Ryu has some fundamental problems in neutral that I think people are glossing over. He's good at boxing characters, but bad at baiting (besides FADC) and approaching. The hitlag on his attacks leaves him susceptible to dash-to-shield, and while his airspeed is almost Mario-level, his aerial control/ability is awful. When Ryu jumps at you, he commits to jumping at you (like in Street Fighter). It's difficult for him to bait without FADC or using up his double jump. And the top and high tiers can all capitalize on these two key weaknesses, because their neutral games are amazing by comparison.

I'm inclined to think that Ryu is upper mid tier, maybe lower high tier. He does have potential, as people keep saying, but to say that he's a top or high tier? I think day-1 hype, along with Nintendo's fantastic Street-Fighter-esque rendition of the character (which I do appreciate), is an overwhelming factor in that conclusion. He's not a fundamentally good character, and I think that people will realize this over time.

 

[Thinkaman]

-Good disadvantage
-Good throw game
-High+ tier projectile
-Extreme movement speed

He has quite a bit of close quarters tools, but he doesn't seem that scary without some of these. Has any frame data for Ryu been analyzed yet?

Here's some quick Ryu data:

Frame Data

Jab light: 4?
Jab heavy: 9
Ftilt light: 10?
Ftilt heavy: 13, 25
Dtilt light: 3?
Dtilt heavy: 7
Utilt light: 4?
Utilt heavy: 7
Dash attack: 7
Fsmash: 15
Usmash: 9
Dsmash: 6
Nair: 4
Fair: 6
Uair: 6
Dair: 8
Bair: 8

Grab: 6
Dash grab: 8
Pivot grab: 8

Neutral b: 12
Hadoken input: 14
Shakunetsu input: 13
Up b: 6
Shoryuken input: 6
Side b: 8
Tatsumaki input: 8
Down b (minimum for stun): 41

Landing Lag

Nair: 6
Fair: 14
Bair: 12
Uair: 14
Dair: 18
Shoryuken: 12

- Very good frame data and probably the least overall landing lag in the game
- Nair can break out of combos, it's like Mac's but a couple frames slower and the hitbox is on the entire body and sends the opponent away with proper knockback
- Focus attack, Shoryuken, bair, dair, heavy ftilt and heavy jab are probably some of the best moves in the game
- Dair meteor is about as strong as Falcon's and it's frame 8
- Walk speed is pretty slow, running speed average or above average
- Air speed is great (Mario, ZSS, DK level) and aerial mobility (change of directions) is terrible
- You cannot grab Ryu between his Collarbone Breaker hits even by a frame 6 grab
- His grab range is pretty poor while his dash grab is great and pivot grab good, they're all also very fast
- No throw setups as far as I can tell

 

[Ryu_Ken]

It's too early to place Ryu on the tier list or even say if his tools are good or bad. This character requires a lot of time and dedication, and though he may seem really great or somewhat a bit underwhelming, he needs a lot of time to develop. Not saying we shouldn't talk about him, just take some of the things we discuss with a grain of salt. On the flip side, i'm still really hyped for him because his potential is very, very high.

 

[wedl!!]

Chracter thoughts:

ooh, can't wait for main bias.

Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

• good approach? with 's entire lack of safe moves? ok bud.
• has no kill options lmao what are you talking about
• just because bucket out of a dthrow is an instant kill doesn't mean smart people are gullible enough to throw projectiles at you. that's like saying because has a move that can kill you at like 20-30% (utilt, rwp) he's one of the best characters in the game (he's not, for reference).
• yea, we know light =/= bad but that's not what people are saying. he's not bad because he's a featherweight, it's just one of his crippling flaws. things are said for reasons, you know.

are all decent.

and are both bad lol
could you maybe, idk, provide reasons for this? you're not actually telling me anything by making face-level statements like that.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

that argument has no legs to stand on when you don't even present a reason as to why is overrated. you could've said " is bad, people are just getting hit by windkicks and killed at 40% on smashville because they dont know the mu" and that would've been more constructive than that dumbass analogy you made (even if it's wrong).

Is not as bad as people say.

yea, in customs meta. in defaults isn't viable

>

>

>

i think this perfectly summarizes this post; blanket statements that have no logic behind them and are basically fueled to preach to the choir.

>>

blanket statement with no basis again? check

Top 10:

i mean i guess you can make arguments for as top 10 if you're an idiot

with the uair nerf is not top 5 or even close to it.

and in top 10 could u explain pls

Bottom 7:

lol @ and being bottom 7
do you interpret FG as a perfect simulation of high level play

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

you right now:

this made me want to make a top/bottom 10 so here i go (no customs/miis)
top:
bottom:

: this is obvious. best neutral in the game, difficult to punish moveset, etc. everyone knows what this character does and i don't want to reiterate it (nor do i need to).
: the best zoner in the game (that isn't the TU TU lady). huge disjoint, great killpower, dominant neutral game, and luma the f***boi
: probably the most difficult character to play out of the top 10, at his full potential is hit and run incarnate. quick attack is not even debatably the best up-b in the game.
: basically a power character with a projectile and the best dthrow in the game.
: since people started figuring out things with her more, my opinion has risen greatly. i will stand by my opinion that flip jump is the best down b in the game. really dominant everything (EE even pointed out she's a domme Kappa)
: despite having pretty poor range, he still manages to have some of the best footies in the game due to having great mobility and an obnoxious punish game. only thing holding him back is being a combo food featherweight.
: all the dumb nerfs he got are solidifying to be noticeably less stellar than he once was, but still a pretty oppressive character. basically everyone above him beats him/goes even with him now.
: kind of like 's good equivalent. a great special kit topped off with an engine that suits him just a bit better.
: there's nothing about this character that really needs be said. his kit is basic but works. nair is dumb, fair is dumb, eggs are dumb, dinosaurs are pretty smart though.
: the uair nerf is the final nail in the coffin for our old hoohahing friend. now that he lost a lot of utility, he's still a solid character but is going to require a lot more work to win with.

: i had a really hard time with this one. the character basically has no representation anywhere, and from what i've played she is a severely nerfed . having WOP doesn't mattter in a game where airdodges don't make you helpless and many characters have great recoveries. i guess rest is stil ok?
: this hurt me a lot. like, a lot a lot. but, if i have to get down to it, is not good. like, at all. zero mobility, poor recovery, awful disadvantage, weak grab game and extremely unreliable projectiles are what's killing this character. i was tempted to put her lower, but then i realized how great windjab is and stopped.
: this is really preemptive, but this character is probably going to not matter in the meta at all. awful footsies game with zero mobility, poor frame data and awful grab, etc. it also doesn't help that small characters basically make him have no chance of winning. zair is a pretty good tool though, so is dthrow (but then the 16 frame grab monster comes out).
: having hitboxes on 2 of her moves is kind of a bad thing i guess
: i kind of explained why he's bad, but i guess i'll reiterate myself;

• no kill options
• lack of safety on shield
• featherweight
• extremely unreliable game overall

: all the buffs got bumped him up a little bit, but not out of the trench. he still suffers from bad airgame (for a freakin dragon) and all-around lagginess. being combo food is also crippling.
the other chararcter i don't really know too much about, so they're not in order. the ledge nerfs made the worst character in the game imo.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I do not understand how people think Ryu lacks good movement. You cannot compare him to Sonic, Pikachu and Sheik and say he does not have good movement. Those are extreme examples. He has good jump heights, good run and walk speed, and good fast fall speed. He is pretty quick in neutral if he needs to be.

Also, I am not going to say his disadvantaged state is great, but being able to use TSRK and kill people post 90% on reaction from a distance that beats disjoints like Roy's sword is pretty devastating.

Ryu's run speed is actually pretty bad. He's only slightly faster than Falco, which is not good at all since it means Ryu can easily get camped by faster characters.

 

[Smog Frog]

why do people think has bad frame data?

can someone name me an overly laggy move that isnt usmash? really, i dont see where the sentiment of "bad frame data" is coming from.

also does NOT have terrible mobility. it may not be the best, but its not / tier. i actually feel like i can bob and weave with .

small characters can crouch under sh pk fire(i have yet to test it with the fast fall variant, which actually comes out and pushes back a little), that is true, but sh zair can hit REALLY low. and zair sets up for grab, fair, etc.

his footsies may not be the best but ftilt is disjointed and quick, jab is fast(frame 2 i think?) and has a deceptively large range, and zair controls the midrange pretty well.

also, has arguably the best set of throws in the game. f/bthrows kill at the ledge, uthrow kills anywhere, and dthrow sets up some nasty combos and give him his own hoo-hah. the risk for using grab is (more or less)wholly compensated by the reward for landing it.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ wedl!!
Hold it right there, let me tell you something about Lucas. He's nowhere near bottom tier standard whatsoever, because I play a pretty mean Lucas as of now and let me say that he has an amazing time with throw options. His Down Throw can link into Neutral Aerial at even higher damages, or even link into F-Air at up to high damages, his Back and Front Throw are both great KO moves near the edge after punishing an attack, and his frame data seems bad at first (which is a bunch of bull), but you realize he's got some of the more powerful attacks and options in his arsenal.

If I remember correctly, almost all his hits in his D-Air are meteors, especially the last hit. And his B-Air is a dangerous meteor attack overall. I don't see why you think Lucas is a bad character, to be honest.

@ Smog Frog
I should point out that Down Throw can link into a nasty combo for U-Smash. But it's recommended that it be at zero to medium damages. It does some great damage and is amazing against bulky heavyweights. He also has D-Throw > N-Air as a great option against opponents, much like Ness has D-Throw > F-Air, and Lucas can do it twice.

As for footsies, try going against a Lucas trying to D-Tilt > Jab combo you. His D-Tilt can also link to F-Smash very quickly, and it's effective, too. He's also got a good thing against projectile characters with F-Smash or D-Spec.

 

[san.]

It's a little unfair to be looking at what Ryu doesn't have, I agree, but from my experience with Mii Gunner, having good throw options may beat out your awesome everything else.

Thanks for the info, @ Thinkaman .

Edit: Also, when I mentioned extreme speed, I was thinking of Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Falcon, etc. levels of dashes on the ground that couldn't be reacted to. Otherwise, I would've used a tamer word lol.

 

[Ulevo]

Ryu's run speed is actually pretty bad. He's only slightly faster than Falco, which is not good at all since it means Ryu can easily get camped by faster characters.

That is fair.

 

[bc1910]

I don't know why everyone is so down on Lucas. His throws alone make him better than the bottom tiers and probably the low tiers. His grabs might be bad, but AFAIK they're active on frame 12 and thus won't reasonably be dodged on reaction. They have to be used carefully but he's still gonna get huge mileage out of his crazy throws. I think Lucas is a solid mid-tier character at worst, I don't see him having any of the crippling weaknesses the lower tier characters have to deal with.

 

[Ffamran]

We edgeguardin' now, boys! Rapid Jab to Nair with Falco Lombardi who prefers the air... and ****.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1gk1M4ubnk. Cyro met shofu before the patch once and it was kind of hilarious since shofu was doing his vote a character and I'll play them on FG thing. Obviously, it didn't end well for shofu, but they had a match afterwards of a classic Fox vs. Falco.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't feel comfortable putting a definite spot on Ryu yet. He is a really weird character in the realm of Smash.

I would say his biggest problem is against projectiles, swordies aren't such a threat as first believed (Fair is legit). He doesn't really have the weaving capabilities to weave through then and Fireball doesn't really do anything against other projectiles. Howeven don't sleep on his projectile, espically the EX version as it is a top tier poking tool. Being able to consistently do EX Fireballs on command is gonna be really important.

I think he could become a top tier character or just a solid upper mid. Either way he by far has the tools and options to compete.

 

[irokex13]

: this hurt me a lot. like, a lot a lot. but, if i have to get down to it, is not good. like, at all. zero mobility, poor recovery, awful disadvantage, weak grab game and extremely unreliable projectiles are what's killing this character. i was tempted to put her lower, but then i realized how great windjab is and stopped.

If you seriously think Robin is bottom 10, go right ahead, let Nintendo buff them. It's always nice to see people count Robin out and then get surprised with just how strong their tools are. But go ahead, continue to underrate Robin.

 

[Blobface]

We edgeguardin' now, boys! Rapid Jab to Nair with Falco Lombardi who prefers the air... and ****.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1gk1M4ubnk. Cyro met shofu before the patch once and it was kind of hilarious since shofu was doing his vote a character and I'll play them on FG thing. Obviously, it didn't end well for shofu, but they had a match afterwards of a classic Fox vs. Falco.

It's so nice for Falco to finally get thrown a bone... or a worm... or whatever he eats. Would you say he has some of the best true comboing in the game now?

 

[wedl!!]

ok, convince me otherwise. making empty passive aggressive remarks doesn't prove much.

show me any results she has.

 

[deepseadiva]

I figured a character from Street Fighter is going to have problems in a Smash world.

They translated him almost too well, and that kind of design and concept is going to struggle against foreign things like running around, and ledges. Lol

 

[Ffamran]

It's so nice for Falco to finally get thrown a bone... or a worm... or whatever he eats. Would you say he has some of the best true comboing in the game now?

I heard he likes bread.

Potentially, but unlike Luigi, Fox, or Sheik, he has little means to actually get in to to do these combos. On characters with good air speed or low fall speed, Falco might not be able to catch them at all for comboing like how Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi can Nair him if he attempts to go for a followup after D-throw or how Kirby, Jigglypuff, Meta Knight, Charizard, and I think even Triple D can jump out. He's basically the character where if he gets in, he's going to do a ton of damage, but he can be camped out by... everyone. Zelda can sit her princess butt at one end of the stage, reflect when she can, and let Falco run in and get hit by Nayru's Love, Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Little Mac speed camp him, and Ganondorf, Charizard, DK, and Bowser just tank his attempts at forcing approaches as his Blaster is more or less inconveniences to everyone compared to Fox which just irritates people and you know that Fox can get away with that since he's so freaking fast or how Mario and Luigi can glide back and forth with Fireballs or how Toon Link confirm with Bombs. Triple D's Gordos are punishing compared to Falco's Blaster. If anything, Samus and Falco are similar in that they can combo really well, but Falco's got the kill power Samus wants while Samus has the projectile game Falco wants (and the mobility too).

Ignore whatever the hell the intro to this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhLiHG_Npi0, but you're not likely going to see Falco pulling these combos off against good DI or the fact he might not even get a chance to do anything since he gets overwhelmed so easily. Maybe less so with how Nair functions now and Fair seemingly being faster, but Falco is really sluggish when the momentum is against him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait why would Ryu struggle vs projectiles that arent needles?

He can powershield like anyone else.

Try it sometime.