Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

I heard he likes bread.

Potentially, but unlike Luigi, Fox, or Sheik, he has little means to actually get in to to do these combos. On characters with good air speed or low fall speed, Falco might not be able to catch them at all for comboing like how Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi can Nair him if he attempts to go for a followup after D-throw or how Kirby, Jigglypuff, Meta Knight, Charizard, and I think even Triple D can jump out. He's basically the character where if he gets in, he's going to do a ton of damage, but he can be camped out by... everyone. Zelda can sit her princess butt at one end of the stage, reflect when she can, and let Falco run in and get hit by Nayru's Love, Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Little Mac speed camp him, and Ganondorf, Charizard, DK, and Bowser just tank his attempts at forcing approaches as his Blaster is more or less inconveniences to everyone compared to Fox which just irritates people and you know that Fox can get away with that since he's so freaking fast or how Mario and Luigi can glide back and forth with Fireballs or how Toon Link confirm with Bombs. Triple D's Gordos are punishing compared to Falco's Blaster. If anything, Samus and Falco are similar in that they can combo really well, but Falco's got the kill power Samus wants while Samus has the projectile game Falco wants (and the mobility too).

Ignore whatever the hell the intro to this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhLiHG_Npi0, but you're not likely going to see Falco pulling these combos off against good DI or the fact he might not even get a chance to do anything since he gets overwhelmed so easily. Maybe less so with how Nair functions now and Fair seemingly being faster, but Falco is really sluggish when the momentum is against him.

I am in agreement regarding skepticism on how effective Falco can execute his plan.

But I really like that Falco has a plan now--there's an underlining, overarching point to Smash 4 Falco now, and it seems fun.

 

[Nu~]

Wait why would Ryu struggle vs projectiles that arent needles?

He can powershield like anyone else.

Try it sometime.

What about mega man pellets?

 

[Radical Larry]

What about mega man pellets?

Ooh, and let's add the Links' projectile spam in close time intervals while we're at it.
And Ness' PK Fire, Lucas' PK Thunder, G & W's Chef.

 

[DairunCates]

ok, convince me otherwise. making empty passive aggressive remarks doesn't prove much.

show me any results she has.

You mean other than the fact that one of the top ranked players in the world has her as one of his three main circulation characters and sweeped an entire set of tourneys early on with only her?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also people super sleeping on Ryus BRAINDEAD trap game. Forward/down throw, short hop/grounded EX Shakunetsu then just...wait. You will seriously cover like 90% of the options anyone can take and then just grab them when they land or run up powershield into up b. Its stupid easy and effective.

Seriously, experiment with it. This is the character that INVENTED the trap game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait why would Ryu struggle vs projectiles that arent needles?

He can powershield like anyone else.

Try it sometime.

I understand what you are getting at (we can't just say "projectiles!" and send Ryu to bottom tier), but it's sort of silly to dismiss all projectiles in the game that aren't needles from the neutral game. Fireballs are very legit, as are bananas and lloid rocket. You can power-shield eggs and thunderjolts and pikmin all day, but that doesn't make them unsafe or risky to harass with. Then you've got random moves like arcfire, or charge-up moves that force approaches matter a ton. All of these are transparently more of a problem for Ryu than the majority of the cast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Arcfire is bunz. Cut it out. Bananas I never considered a projectile really, but ok sure.

I don't get how they are more of a problem for him then others besides his running speed, but any char with below average running speed has that same issue.

 

[Thinkaman]

Arcfire is bunz. Cut it out. Bananas I never considered a projectile really, but ok sure.

I don't get how they are more of a problem for him then others besides his running speed, but any char with below average running speed has that same issue.

I used arcfire specifically as an example of a projectile that isn't that great, except that if your response is strictly "I'm just going to powershield everything" you'll be taken advantage of.

The idea is that most other slow characters have some form of competitive ranged game. Robin, Mewtwo, Samus, and WFT are slow as balls, but they'll glady accept siege warfare; they've got crap to throw and stuff to charge. (This is a central part of why Sheik is so irritating--she gets to be speedster-mcgee and still win the range game too, thanks for playing) Ryu is no Ganon, but he is going to dislike projectiles in a similar way.

 

[Firefoxx]

Unless my DI skills are complete garbage, Diddy can still get u-throw -> u-air to true combo on Sheik at KO %. Red sparks start at 118%. Stopped being able to get the combo easily at around 128% and I couldn't get the combo at all, even with no DI, at 140%. Didn't check if it was possible to mash air dodge to get out of it, but that just means that at worst Diddy has to read an air dodge.

Also, Diddy's gentleman only registers as a true combo on Sheik if he's really close to her. Measured roughly, their feet have to be overlapping, or incredibly close to overlapping, for it to combo. Otherwise, it will not register as a combo at all, even at 999%

 

[DairunCates]

Arcfire is bunz. Cut it out. Bananas I never considered a projectile really, but ok sure.

I don't get how they are more of a problem for him then others besides his running speed, but any char with below average running speed has that same issue.

This may help a bit.

Because he has predictable approach options and general short range. Having below average run speed exacerbates the problem. Speed is a huge deal when zoning, but if you don't have that, you need a very varied approach. Ryu's only real Zone Breaker is his dash attack and sometimes Fair. The majority of characters that have slow speed either have super armor, varied approach options, or good projectiles that counter projectile zoning to compensate. Ryu's hadoken is not really one of these due to how slow you can fire it. It's really more meant for frame trapping.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I used arcfire specifically as an example of a projectile that isn't that great, except that if your response is strictly "I'm just going to powershield everything" you'll be taken advantage of.

The idea is that most other slow characters have some form of competitive ranged game. Robin, Mewtwo, Samus, and WFT are slow as balls, but they'll glady accept siege warfare; they've got crap to throw and stuff to charge. (This is a central part of why Sheik is so irritating--she gets to be speedster-mcgee and still win the range game too, thanks for playing) Ryu is no Ganon, but he is going to dislike projectiles in a similar way.

And yet Ganon STILL won a major

ha. Suddenly I no longer even feel the need to debate Ryu's viability.

See yall in the dojo.

@ DairunCates - There is no way you could know this but False and I know each other IRL. He actually asked me about my opinion on what he discussed in that vid before he made it. You did not show me anything I did not know my friend. I am def not one who does not understand fighting game concepts.

 

[Ffamran]

I am in agreement regarding skepticism on how effective Falco can execute his plan.

But I really like that Falco has a plan now--there's an underlining, overarching point to Smash 4 Falco now, and it seems fun.

Falco and Samus need some fine-tuning and they can be amazing, but fair characters - no pun intended. They have great combo potential and true combos at that, especially if you screw up. The only issues are as I said, Falco's mobility, lack of an effective projectile game, and really bad disadvantage compared to Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Little Mac while Samus suffers from kill options, a good jab mixup game, and a decent grab. That said, they excel at punishing since they have quick punishing tools like Falco's Bair or Samus's Side Smash and Screw Attack. Falco's edgeguard game is pretty much out of this world now if he could get anyone off the stage, Samus's anti-air is sick and her disadvantage is good because of how Bombs allow her to shift position in the air so well and making her hurtbox smaller.

The only issue is how to tune them up. If Falco say, ran as fast as Roy, there would be some serious issues with basically a Fox that hits harder, hits just as fast, combos just as good or even better, and is a much better edgeguarder. Or if his air speed was too fast, he would be Captain Falcon or Ike with a much, much better jump. And we all know about how one screw up can break his Blaster too. Ditto goes for Samus. It's like two characters who are structurally strong, but one thing or the other can break them in too good or too bad ways. Kind of wished Zelda had this problem too instead of just being good on paper, but structurally bad and bad in practice.

The weird thing is that Falco kind of functions like a Street Fighter or a "traditional fighting game" character, but more of a Smash character compared to Ryu who's a SF character in a Smash game. You can with Falco mix up jab, tilts, aerials, and even Smashes at any given moment and as noted in the beginning of the game, he plays footsies really well, but his end lag and IASA are good enough he can do this, but bad enough he can't do what Fox, Sheik, and Ryu can do. That was one of his plans and still is in this game: boxing. The other plan pre-patch was punish which Falco can do, but he doesn't have Ganondorf's raw power, Little Mac's super armor, or Fox's speed. Can't really do much of punishing if he can get there in time or finish the kill early enough. The new plan is comboing and comboing hard with punishing being the tertiary plan or the plan that pretty much everyone's got, but only a select few specialize in it. Oh, and edgeguard like a fiend now.

 

[DairunCates]

The idea is that most other slow characters have some form of competitive ranged game. Robin, Mewtwo, Samus, and WFT are slow as balls.

WFT slow as balls? She's in the top half of both run AND walk speed rankings. She's not amazing at basically 20th each, but she's definitely not slow.

 

[Thinkaman]

WFT slow as balls? She's in the top half of both run AND walk speed rankings. She's not amazing at basically 20th each, but she's definitely not slow.

Yet her air speed is below average, her attacks come out slower than most of the cast, and all of this is emphasized by her dismal range.

Her fastest ground option is a frame 4 jab. There are several characters that are as bad or worse, but those characters have either great speed or great range (often disjointed), not meh in both.

 

[FullMoon]

I just found out that Greninja shoots his shuriken low enough that they actually go under the hadouken, however if he charges it a little they clash. So Greninja can hit Ryu with a shuriken when he uses Hadouken while still being able to shield it due to the hadouken being slower even on its max speed unless Ryu is too close or Greninja throws the shuriken too late.

That's an interesting quirk. The hadouken does outrange the shuriken slightly at max range though.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco and Samus need some fine-tuning and they can be amazing, but fair characters - no pun intended. They have great combo potential and true combos at that, especially if you screw up. The only issues are as I said, Falco's mobility, lack of an effective projectile game, and really bad disadvantage compared to Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Little Mac while Samus suffers from kill options, a good jab mixup game, and a decent grab. That said, they excel at punishing since they have quick punishing tools like Falco's Bair or Samus's Side Smash and Screw Attack. Falco's edgeguard game is pretty much out of this world now if he could get anyone off the stage, Samus's anti-air is sick and her disadvantage is good because of how Bombs allow her to shift position in the air so well and making her hurtbox smaller.

The only issue is how to tune them up. If Falco say, ran as fast as Roy, there would be some serious issues with basically a Fox that hits harder, hits just as fast, combos just as good or even better, and is a much better edgeguarder. Or if his air speed was too fast, he would be Captain Falcon or Ike with a much, much better jump. And we all know about how one screw up can break his Blaster too. Ditto goes for Samus. It's like two characters who are structurally strong, but one thing or the other can break them in too good or too bad ways. Kind of wished Zelda had this problem too instead of just being good on paper, but structurally bad and bad in practice.

The weird thing is that Falco kind of functions like a Street Fighter or a "traditional fighting game" character, but more of a Smash character compared to Ryu who's a SF character in a Smash game. You can with Falco mix up jab, tilts, aerials, and even Smashes at any given moment and as noted in the beginning of the game, he plays footsies really well, but his end lag and IASA are good enough he can do this, but bad enough he can't do what Fox, Sheik, and Ryu can do. That was one of his plans and still is in this game: boxing. The other plan pre-patch was punish which Falco can do, but he doesn't have Ganondorf's raw power, Little Mac's super armor, or Fox's speed. Can't really do much of punishing if he can get there in time or finish the kill early enough. The new plan is comboing and comboing hard with punishing being the tertiary plan or the plan that pretty much everyone's got, but only a select few specialize in it. Oh, and edgeguard like a fiend now.

Falco's disadvantage state is not worse than captain Falcon, Little Mac, or Ganondorf. His Nair is a frame 3, combo breaking aerial. Due to the fact that it now sucks the opponent in, Its way better at breaking combos than it was previously.

 

[DairunCates]

Yet her air speed is below average, her attacks come out slower than most of the cast, and all of this is emphasized by her dismal range.

Her fastest ground option is a frame 4 jab. There are several characters that are as bad or worse, but those characters have either great speed or great range (often disjointed), not meh in both.

Air speed is one of those weird things though. It's not nearly as much of a "fast good, slow bad" kinda scenario like ground speed. Several characters use slower speed in air to help with air combos, and aerials are definitely one of her strong points once you get a proper punish going. Similarly, the slow attacks are oddly what I think will ultimately be one of her stronger points in the long run. The awkward timing on it is excessively hard to power shield. So, a lot of opponents have to start doing either regular shielding or air and spot dodges or even dodge rolls. That's a long discussion for another time though.

Still, fair enough. She's still not too far below average on air speed either, but she's honestly middling in most camps of movement other that movement stalling. I still wouldn't exactly call her slow though. She definitely has more movement options of really any of the projectile Zoners.

 

[PUK]

Yet her air speed is below average, her attacks come out slower than most of the cast, and all of this is emphasized by her dismal range.

Her fastest ground option is a frame 4 jab. There are several characters that are as bad or worse, but those characters have either great speed or great range (often disjointed), not meh in both.

Yeah her footsie game is bad (even with her godly crouch), but it's can be compensated by her ability to cover her whole hurtox since most of her valuable CQC tools hit everywhere around her. Otherwise i don't think her frame and speed data are really lacking.

 

[Ffamran]

Yet her air speed is below average, her attacks come out slower than most of the cast, and all of this is emphasized by her dismal range.

Her fastest ground option is a frame 4 jab. There are several characters that are as bad or worse, but those characters have either great speed or great range (often disjointed), not meh in both.

I still to this day after looking at Wii Fit Trainer's frame data do not understand why her Down Smash is frame 18 or why her Dair is frame 20. They're not even that strong.

Falco's disadvantage state is not worse than captain Falcon, Little Mac, or Ganondorf. His Nair is a frame 3, combo breaking aerial. Due to the fact that it now sucks the opponent in, Its way better at breaking combos than it was previously.

It was worse pre-patch because Nair didn't connect well and Fair was slower. Now, it's better, but the fact Falco's a fast faller, has slow air speed, and is a lightweight still bites him even with quick moves. A lack of a sex kick like Luigi who also has slow air speed also hurts him. Hell, even Ganondorf has a sex kick Nair and Link's Nair isn't bad even though he, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon's Nairs come out at frame 7.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I still to this day after looking at Wii Fit Trainer's frame data do not understand why her Down Smash is frame 18 or why her Dair is frame 20. They're not even that strong.


It was worse pre-patch because Nair didn't connect well and Fair was slower. Now, it's better, but the fact Falco's a fast faller, has slow air speed, and is a lightweight still bites him even with quick moves. A lack of a sex kick like Luigi who also has slow air speed also hurts him. Hell, even Ganondorf has a sex kick Nair and Link's Nair isn't bad even though he, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon's Nairs come out at frame 7.

Falco's Nair has slightly worse if not the same range as Luigi's Nair. I really don't see how having a sex kick would benefit him in this case, especially since pretty much all of the hits are guaranteed to connect.

 

[Thinkaman]

Air speed is one of those weird things though. It's not nearly as much of a "fast good, slow bad" kinda scenario like ground speed. Several characters use slower speed in air to help with air combos, and aerials are definitely one of her strong points once you get a proper punish going.

Fall speed, yes; horizontal airspeed, no. If I'm Jigglypuff or Yoshi, I can move however slow in the air I darn well please.

Similarly, the slow attacks are oddly what I think will ultimately be one of her stronger points in the long run. The awkward timing on it is excessively hard to power shield. So, a lot of opponents have to start doing either regular shielding or air and spot dodges or even dodge rolls.

This is some straight up funky kool-aid you're drinking. Slow moves are strictly worse, period.

People with fast moves can actually achieve the benefit you are discussing with an advance technique called "pushing the button later."

Snark aside, I do think WFT has unique strengths and is oft overlooked. Her poor range and lack of good OoS options cripple her though, and sometimes her pressure can be lacking. Fortunately, weighted header and jumbo hoops exist and definitely solve both problems.

Still, fair enough. She's still not too far below average on air speed either, but she's honestly middling in most camps of movement other that movement stalling. I still wouldn't exactly call her slow though. She definitely has more movement options of really any of the projectile Zoners.

Well, the thing about movespeed is that you can play to your strengths. Jigglypuff's movement options are trash on the ground, but top tier in the air--that doesn't average out to "average", that averages out to "Jigglypuff spends a lot of time in the air." Sonic runs, Marth walks, Falcon jumps horizontally, G&W pivots in the air; everyone biases their game around their mobility strengths. WFT is just sort of average at everything, and suffers for it in comparison.

She does compare similarly to Villager, Duck Hunt, and those sorts though.

 

[Firefoxx]

Another thing that helps Falco's disadvantage, is that the nair windbox is below him. So a frame the nair with a windbox to protect him. That's seems pretty good

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's Nair has slightly worse if not the same range as Luigi's Nair. I really don't see how having a sex kick would benefit him in this case, especially since pretty much all of the hits are guaranteed to connect.

Coverage, especially below him. Falco's Nair covers waist up more while sex kicks cover the entire body for some reason. Falco can easily cover in front, behind, and above him with Nair, Fair, Bair, and Uair now, but covering below is the issue. Falco has to gamble with Dair or somehow fast fall and intercept with Nair, Fair, or Bair. In Melee and Brawl, he could easily cover below him by throwing out Nair, Bair, and Dair.

Another thing that helps Falco's disadvantage, is that the nair windbox is below him. So a frame the nair with a windbox to protect him. That's seems pretty good

It's not a windbox; it's the game freaking out trying to connect his Nair now that it autolinks like his Fair and Zelda's Nair, but since Falco jumps so damn high and so quickly, the game can't figure out how to properly connect a rising Nair, so it causes this windbox, vacuum, tornado, hurricane, typhoon, default-available Kong Cyclone, black hole effect and drag whoever in an attempt to connect his Nair with his target. I bet Zelda's Nair would do this too if she had Falco's jump. Autolink angles are also the reason why Falco could drag people with Fair and "spike" them during the 3DS's release, why Fox can spike with Fair if he fast falls before the final hit, and why Falco can use fast fall Nair like Fox with his fast fall Fair and set up combos.

 

[Conda]

Great video as always!

I've been praising the low end-lag of Roy's Flare Blade recently, so I'm surprised you didn't mention that.

Yeah Roy's low end lag in general is a great diffrentiator between him and Marth/Lucina.

And since you're a fan of the videos, here are my current impressions on Ryu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvBUydUf4TE

 

[PUK]

I still to this day after looking at Wii Fit Trainer's frame data do not understand why her Down Smash is frame 18 or why her Dair is frame 20. They're not even that strong.

First time i thought it was a joke yeah
But who needs Dair when you have an aerial i win you lose? Seriously sideB spike are so satisfying and so easy to land on a read...

 

[Ffamran]

First time i thought it was a joke yeah
But who needs Dair when you have an aerial i win you lose? Seriously sideB spike are so satisfying and so easy to land on a read...

It's the power and speed ratio that bothers me. So, Ganondorf's Volcano Kick is hilariously slow, but it's also hilariously strong and disjointed. Or how Mega Man's first pellet is weak, but quick. It's when stuff like pre-patch Diddy's Uair being strong and fast or how WFT's Dair is weak and slow that feels weird.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Also people super sleeping on Ryus BRAINDEAD trap game. Forward/down throw, short hop/grounded EX Shakunetsu then just...wait. You will seriously cover like 90% of the options anyone can take and then just grab them when they land or run up powershield into up b. Its stupid easy and effective.

Seriously, experiment with it. This is the character that INVENTED the trap game.

More hilarity:

- 1 frame vulnerability getting up from the ledge? No problem. True Shoryuken has an answer for it! Seriously, characters getting up from there are going to have to really mix it up to get back onstage, especially when they're at kill percents. A fresh DP can bring an end to most stocks.

- Collar Breaker is hilarious when you pivot it. The range is deceptive, and it stays out forever.

- That ****ing initial dash animation is so good. Like, it's a Fox trot on 'roids.

This character is amazing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Has anyone try foxtrotting with Ryu like his dashes in SF4? Wonder if its useful for being an alternative to rolling or for baits?

 

[Thinkaman]

This is your daily reminder that Dream Land has higher platforms than Battlefield/Miiverse, and that like Smashville, Mac, Ganon, and Ryu cannot full hop onto them.

- Collar Breaker is hilarious when you pivot it. The range is deceptive, and it stays out forever.

I love pivot Collar Breaker.

 

[Woohoo982]

ooh, can't wait for main bias.

• good approach? with 's entire lack of safe moves? ok bud.
• has no kill options lmao what are you talking about
• just because bucket out of a dthrow is an instant kill doesn't mean smart people are gullible enough to throw projectiles at you. that's like saying because has a move that can kill you at like 20-30% (utilt, rwp) he's one of the best characters in the game (he's not, for reference).
• yea, we know light =/= bad but that's not what people are saying. he's not bad because he's a featherweight, it's just one of his crippling flaws. things are said for reasons, you know.

and are both bad lol
could you maybe, idk, provide reasons for this? you're not actually telling me anything by making face-level statements like that.


that argument has no legs to stand on when you don't even present a reason as to why is overrated. you could've said " is bad, people are just getting hit by windkicks and killed at 40% on smashville because they dont know the mu" and that would've been more constructive than that ******* analogy you made (even if it's wrong).



yea, in customs meta. in defaults isn't viable


i think this perfectly summarizes this post; blanket statements that have no logic behind them and are basically fueled to preach to the choir.


blanket statement with no basis again? check


i mean i guess you can make arguments for as top 10 if you're an idiot

with the uair nerf is not top 5 or even close to it.

and in top 10 could u explain pls


lol @ and being bottom 7
do you interpret FG as a perfect simulation of high level play


you right now:

this made me want to make a top/bottom 10 so here i go (no customs/miis)
top:
bottom:

: this is obvious. best neutral in the game, difficult to punish moveset, etc. everyone knows what this character does and i don't want to reiterate it (nor do i need to).
: the best zoner in the game (that isn't the TU TU lady). huge disjoint, great killpower, dominant neutral game, and luma the f***boi
: probably the most difficult character to play out of the top 10, at his full potential is hit and run incarnate. quick attack is not even debatably the best up-b in the game.
: basically a power character with a projectile and the best dthrow in the game.
: since people started figuring out things with her more, my opinion has risen greatly. i will stand by my opinion that flip jump is the best down b in the game. really dominant everything (EE even pointed out she's a domme Kappa)
: despite having pretty poor range, he still manages to have some of the best footies in the game due to having great mobility and an obnoxious punish game. only thing holding him back is being a combo food featherweight.
: all the dumb nerfs he got are solidifying to be noticeably less stellar than he once was, but still a pretty oppressive character. basically everyone above him beats him/goes even with him now.
: kind of like 's good equivalent. a great special kit topped off with an engine that suits him just a bit better.
: there's nothing about this character that really needs be said. his kit is basic but works. nair is dumb, fair is dumb, eggs are dumb, dinosaurs are pretty smart though.
: the uair nerf is the final nail in the coffin for our old hoohahing friend. now that he lost a lot of utility, he's still a solid character but is going to require a lot more work to win with.

: i had a really hard time with this one. the character basically has no representation anywhere, and from what i've played she is a severely nerfed . having WOP doesn't mattter in a game where airdodges don't make you helpless and many characters have great recoveries. i guess rest is stil ok?
: this hurt me a lot. like, a lot a lot. but, if i have to get down to it, is not good. like, at all. zero mobility, poor recovery, awful disadvantage, weak grab game and extremely unreliable projectiles are what's killing this character. i was tempted to put her lower, but then i realized how great windjab is and stopped.
: this is really preemptive, but this character is probably going to not matter in the meta at all. awful footsies game with zero mobility, poor frame data and awful grab, etc. it also doesn't help that small characters basically make him have no chance of winning. zair is a pretty good tool though, so is dthrow (but then the 16 frame grab monster comes out).
: having hitboxes on 2 of her moves is kind of a bad thing i guess
: i kind of explained why he's bad, but i guess i'll reiterate myself;

• no kill options
• lack of safety on shield
• featherweight
• extremely unreliable game overall

: all the buffs got bumped him up a little bit, but not out of the trench. he still suffers from bad airgame (for a freakin dragon) and all-around lagginess. being combo food is also crippling.
the other chararcter i don't really know too much about, so they're not in order. the ledge nerfs made the worst character in the game imo.

G&W has no safe moves or kill options? LOL no. Have you seen any high level G&W play? he has tons of kill options. Smashes, windboxes, aerials, 9, bucket, and his dash attack is safe so idk what youre talking about.
Moral: Dont throw out false arguments

 

[FullMoon]

This is your daily reminder that Dream Land has higher platforms than Battlefield/Miiverse, and that like Smashville, Mac, Ganon, and Ryu cannot full hop onto them.

... Wow I just realized how short Ryu's jump is.

 

[DairunCates]

Fall speed, yes; horizontal airspeed, no. If I'm Jigglypuff or Yoshi, I can move however slow in the air I darn well please.

This is some straight up funky kool-aid you're drinking. Slow moves are strictly worse, period.

People with fast moves can actually achieve the benefit you are discussing with an advance technique called "pushing the button later."

Snark aside, I do think WFT has unique strengths and is oft overlooked. Her poor range and lack of good OoS options cripple her though, and sometimes her pressure can be lacking. Fortunately, weighted header and jumbo hoops exist and definitely solve both problems.

Nah. I can understand the snark. It does sound weird. It's a hard thing to explain, but from my experience playing with her, her attacks are in this weird sweetspot where they're just slow enough to be delayed, but not slow enough to punish easily (except the terrible lag on her smashes). If people don't know the matchup (which the vast majority of people dont), a lot of people assume they can beat out the timing on several attacks that they can't. You can always just push the button later with other characters, but when a majority of a character's attacks feel like they're slightly delayed, you can just get used to the timing and not worry as much about doing conscious delays. At a theoretically top end play scenario, it doesn't do anything, but it helps with keeping your play consistent while throwing your opponent off. It allows you to focus on more important things... like wondering why the hell you main WFT.

Also, yeah. Really wish WFT had more horizontal movement. It's the biggest pain of her aerial game.

 

[deepseadiva]

This is your daily reminder that Dream Land has higher platforms than Battlefield/Miiverse, and that like Smashville, Mac, Ganon, and Ryu cannot full hop onto them.

They need to stop doing these things to Mac. Its such a small detail yet so CRUEL

 

[mimgrim]

Ok ok. Hold on. I never once said projectiles will invalidate him, or anything like that, I simply said that they will be what he will struggle against the most. He can powershield, yes, just like every other character in the game. That doesn't mean he still won't struggle against them. (otherwise going with that logic means no character at all struggles with projectiles, which is simply false). They are a threat/problem to him but that doesn't mean I don't think he can work around them but that his options to work around them are much more limited.

Please don't take what I say out of context.

 

[wedl!!]

um
smashes are slow and require setups to work (except usmash, just don't airdodge near the ground)
9 and bucket are basically just luck
windboxes aren't reliable
what aerials kill early? uair? it doesn't even link properly most of the time. bair doesn't kill that early onstage.
dash attack being safe doesn't mean that he has other safe moves (except fair)

having the ability to kill and being a reliable kill move is the distinction between 's utilt and usmash

 

[Thinkaman]

having the ability to kill and being a reliable kill move is the distinction between 's utilt and usmash

Hey, that's my line!


Anyway, G&W suffers a lot from poor kill options without a custom up-b. (Also see: WFT and her OoS + range problems)

 

[wedl!!]

well, i only take from the best.

also i just realized i forgot in my bottom 10 o god

why does 's nair have to be so bad compared to brawl, it still makes me cry to this day

 

[Locke 06]

Ok ok. Hold on. I never once said projectiles will invalidate him, or anything like that, I simply said that they will be what he will struggle against the most. He can powershield, yes, just like every other character in the game. That doesn't mean he still won't struggle against them. (otherwise going with that logic means no character at all struggles with projectiles, which is simply false). They are a threat/problem to him but that doesn't mean I don't think he can work around them but that his options to work around them are much more limited.

Please don't take what I say out of context.

FADC says hi to single hit projectiles. This is likely better than powershielding.

Also, I assume focus attack absorbing stales moves. Focus attack is love. Crumple is death.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I dunno, my gut (huge of grain of salt; I need more than wifi and new char euphoria here) tells me that Ryu may not suffer from zoners that don't quite chuck a lot of **** at you--- True Tatsu can blow up/beat a lot of the weaker projectiles outright, helping with his approach. Stronger projectiles, well, just gotta get in like everyone else, I guess...though FA is also a really good option (thanks @ Locke 06 ).

I do think, however, that characters with disjoints and ridiculous mobility are going to hassle him in neutral. Frame trapping or no, it's kinda hard to get people where Ryu wants them if they don't allow him to do so in the first place. That means that disjoints will winnow away his options at their range, and the more mobile characters can just bob and weave outside of Ryu's effective range/options. Of course we could talk about Ryu's punish game being pretty cool at this point, but I wanna end this weird impression thing with this:

oh my sweet Jesus I am going to be playing a character that has passable neutral now

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trifroze]

Ryu's run speed is actually pretty bad. He's only slightly faster than Falco, which is not good at all since it means Ryu can easily get camped by faster characters.

Ryu has just about the exact same running and aerial speed as Mario who is commonly categorized as a speedster, and in the rankings sits at 26th for running speed and top 10 for aerial.