Character Competitive Impressions

[JayTheUnseen]

I main Greninja but I don't feel anything different this patch. I'm glad he wasn't (apparently) nerfed.

 

[LimitCrown]

Meta Knight isn't a terrible character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I prefer Ike to be considered as low as possible so he gets more buffs. I welcome these posts.

Don't worry, Japan never learns because they generally don't like Ike as a character.

If Ike is top tier in NA, he'll be barely mid in Japan.

 

[Woohoo982]

Ike is pretty viable. Just saying.
I got 2 questions: Why the heck do you think Bowser is top 10 material? What makes WFT good?

I never said WFT was good, I just said she isn't bad.
And omg i put ike as bottom 7. Will change that. loon ike isn't bad at all

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Meta Knight isn't a terrible character.

shhh. don't tell that to sakurai otherwise he might not get buffed in the next patch.

 

[FullMoon]

I main Greninja but I don't feel anything different this patch. I'm glad he wasn't (apparently) nerfed.

F-Tilt is buffed.

You probably will notice it's much faster.

Unless you never ever used F-Tilt which to be honest is not hard to believe.

 

[Deathcarter]

Chracter thoughts:
Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

are all decent.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

Is not as bad as people say.

>

> > (2 marth clones? i cri erry tim)

>

>

Top 10:

Bottom 7:

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

Dude, Olimar hasn't been bottom tier for over 9 months now. What rock have you been living under?

To be on topic, what do people think of Charizard now with the new u-throw/d-throw buffs? In line with the majority of the roster now or still at the bottom of the pack?

 

[Mario766]

Don't worry, Japan never learns because they generally don't like Ike as a character.

If Ike is top tier in NA, he'll be barely mid in Japan.

That's because there are zero Ike players in Japan.

I could care less. Ryuga got 4th at Rebirth IV and it'll only get better with the patch. Ike is going places.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Dude, Olimar hasn't been bottom tier for over 9 months now. What rock have you been living under?

To be on topic, what do people think of Charizard now with the new u-throw/d-throw buffs? In line with the majority of the roster now or still at the bottom of the pack?

He'll probably be somewhat a threat to Ryu since he has an OoS option that kills, but other than that, his size and lag from his attacks is still a big problem. Don't see him moving up any more than 1 spot on the tier list.

 

[Shaya]

If MK's ftilt did get some range buffs on it too (rumours), while considering both the jab and ftilt cooldown buffs in general...
(Me and my psychic balance guesses / sakurai reading my posts), I think top 15 or even top 10 could be feasible. Stronger CQC is really all that felt poor on him seeing as he has the best (or one of the best) mid-range toolsets in the cast (and multi jumps, small hurtbox and mobility specs tend to not make long range an issue). Neutral air landing lag buffs also accentuate CQC.

MK easily dashes through immobile (shielding) characters and his pivot ftilt being multihit like that is UNIQUE TO HIM (no Snake in this game). I think he's now looking to be a high tier disposition character, with no real moveset weaknesses. In contrast to before where I said he was of mid tier disposition with top tier dash attack/dash grab + follow ups.

I think the fact that prior to now he was already looking strong against all the mid-range lightweight top tiers due to amazing high damage/kill potential confirms just made him a very meta-relevant niche character. With stronger neutral tools his other potentially poor match ups are going to be interesting to observe change in the future.

 

[|RK|]

Chracter thoughts:
Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

are all decent.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

Is not as bad as people say.

>

> > (2 marth clones? i cri erry tim)

>

>

Top 10:

Bottom 7:

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

Wait, of the three new DLC characters, you were willing to put Lucas in top 10? Could you perhaps explain your reasoning?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So I spent the afternoon messing with Lucas and while it took a bit of getting used to, I'm pretty happy with him. I found solid results playing him like how @ Smog Frog said, zoning with PK Fire and PK Freeze (The endlag's short enough to mess with aerial approaches a little, at least in the wonderful world of FG) and smacking them with tilts and jab when they got in.

Disclaimer: all impressions based on a few hours of For Glory play.

-His grab feels about as good as a tether grab usually does with the added "fun" of being one of the shorter tethers. A shame, as his throws are all excellent (BThrow is FRAUDULENT, if not as fraudulent as Ness's). It's nice to be able to tether recover though, because PKT2 is WONKY. I literally hit a ledge head on once and still bounced off.

-Speaking of PKT2's wonkiness, it's hitbox is also deceptive. I've hit people who were nowhere near Lucas near the end of it. And then sometimes it gives me the multi-hit and other times it'll knock them away right away. Weird move. And PKT1 is bleh. It's nice when you trap with it but Lucas has like twice Ness's endlag afterwards so onstage use is pretty much impossible.

-Lucas has a solid edge-guarding game. PK Freeze is quick and the short endlag can help set up traps, and Down smash's hit box is nice and big for thinner edges like Battlefield's. If you space it right you appear to be able to cover the roll option too since the third burst hits behind him.

-Dair is blah, Fair is okay but I wish it autocanceled on short hop, Nair launches at a nice angle for follow ups, bair is okay, and I can't figure out Uair's hitbox at all but it feels good when it lands. Meanwhile, magnet stalling is nice for jump mixups with it's stupid low cooldown and solid hitbox. And when he uses an aerial during his second jump, he seems to stall in the air for a bit. Weird, but it helps him when he does a rising aerial back onto the stage.

-UTilt is a great anti-air. So is Ness's for that matter. People should use them more. Having a quick disjoint above your head is super nice. FTilt is passable and I don't quite get DTilt.

-I LOVE his down smash and I probably use it too much.

Overall: I'm a fan, though I can see why people have mixed opinions. Especially since he got released alongside two heavy-hitting combo machines while he's more a patient zoner character. I'm not expecting him to make a huge splash, but I could see a dedicated main performing well with him.

 

[Conda]

Loving the discussion on the newcomers. My Roy impressions currently are that he's very potent, but still not outright better 'at everything' than Marth/Lucina. My impressions:

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Out of curiosity, how does MK do against Ganon? I don't have much knowledge on the MU, but I'd assume he has some things going for him (size and mobility) while also having some things against him (ex. Weight and range).

 

[|RK|]

Loving the discussion on the newcomers. My Roy impressions currently are that he's very potent, but still not outright better 'at everything' than Marth/Lucina. My impressions:

Great video as always!

I've been praising the low end-lag of Roy's Flare Blade recently, so I'm surprised you didn't mention that.

 

[Smog Frog]

new uthrow is ****ing amazing. tests on actually show that this new uthrow is stronger than . you thought that attacking shield at rage %s was scary? now imagine the fear of attacking shield in rage %, which is not only more likely to be in max rage because is a fatass, but the larger grab range(i think its about as large as ?) make it so that it wont whiff the smaller characters. also the new dthrow is a great setup throw. also, on stages with platforms, zard might land on those and kill you even earlier! its like old uthrow and uthrow had a mutant child and uthrow was the outcome.

for reference, here are the kill %s on (no rage/di): is 123%, is 130%.

 

[Blobface]

Out of curiosity, how does MK do against Ganon? I don't have much knowledge on the MU, but I'd assume he has some things going for him (size and mobility) while also having some things against him (ex. Weight and range).

If not even, it's definitely not far from even. As mentioned, MK has things that Ganon doesn't like and things that Ganon likes.

 

[DairunCates]

What makes WFT good?

As a main, I can say she's not "good" in the traditional sense. It certainly doesn't help that the most attention we've gotten in patches was a bunch of minor and silly nerfs to cause consistency in the physics engine. That said, the statement that she's not as bad as people say is true.

1. She's got 2 of the strongest projectiles in the game. Sun Salutation cancels out some high end projectiles and flat out goes through several more. Header works wonders at long range zoning, helps a lot to get back on stage with both it's specific speed and the small air hop it gives, and is nigh unreflectable.

2. While she doesn't have many true combos, she has a lot of mix-ups and easy punish options. A good WFT player knows how to force opponents into approaching and she has a good moveset for countering aggression and forcing it.

3. Her recovery is really good. The various tools she has for air stalling and directional changing allows her to have a very good and shockingly safe off-stage game.

4. Her attack timing is actually awkward. It makes a lot of good players that power shield a lot mess up the timing. Think of the rest of the casts' rhythm as classical and WFT as Jazz. Admittedly, if someone actually knows the matchup, this advantage dies, but as long as an opponent hasn't practiced against a good WFT, this WILL catch them off guard at times.

5. She can crouch as low as kirby and can crawl. This allows you to dodge way more attack than you'd think. It's a shockingly good approach option.

6. Her grab range is terrible, but her grabs do a good job of putting opponents in range for zoning or aerial juggling setups.

7. Her u-smash has the most horrible horizontal distance ever, but the hands are actually a disjointed hitbox. So, almost no attack in the game can hit her out of it from above.

Now, she DEFINITELY has her weaknesses, but considering several people call her "the worst character in the game without customs", the original assertion that she's not as bad as people think is true.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

As a main, I can say she's not "good" in the traditional sense. It certainly doesn't help that the most attention we've gotten in patches was a bunch of minor and silly nerfs to cause consistency in the physics engine. That said, the statement that she's not as bad as people say is true.

1. She's got 2 of the strongest projectiles in the game. Sun Salutation cancels out some high end projectiles and flat out goes through several more. Header works wonders at long range zoning, helps a lot to get back on stage with both it's specific speed and the small air hop it gives, and is nigh unreflectable.

2. While she doesn't have many true combos, she has a lot of mix-ups and easy punish options. A good WFT player knows how to force opponents into approaching and she has a good moveset for countering aggression and forcing it.

3. Her recovery is really good. The various tools she has for air stalling and directional changing allows her to have a very good and shockingly safe off-stage game.

4. Her attack timing is actually awkward. It makes a lot of good players that power shield a lot mess up the timing. Think of the rest of the casts' rhythm as classical and WFT as Jazz. Admittedly, if someone actually knows the matchup, this advantage dies, but as long as an opponent hasn't practiced against a good WFT, this WILL catch them off guard at times.

5. She can crouch as low as kirby and can crawl. This allows you to dodge way more attack than you'd think. It's a shockingly good approach option.

6. Her grab range is terrible, but her grabs do a good job of putting opponents in range for zoning or aerial juggling setups.

7. Her u-smash has the most horrible horizontal distance ever, but the hands are actually a disjointed hitbox. So, almost no attack in the game can hit her out of it from above.

Now, she DEFINITELY has her weaknesses, but considering several people call her "the worst character in the game without customs", the original assertion that she's not as bad as people think is true.

Thank you so much for clarifying. You know, I wish there were more WFT reps in the tournament scene cause I've only seen mediocre stuff from her. Then again, she's just as popular as Olimar/Alph.

 

[Ikes]

shhh. don't tell that to sakurai otherwise he might not get buffed in the next patch.

I'm not even joking I want Meta Knight to be top 5 it would be so funny

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

new uthrow is ****ing amazing. tests on actually show that this new uthrow is stronger than . you thought that attacking shield at rage %s was scary? now imagine the fear of attacking shield in rage %, which is not only more likely to be in max rage because is a fatass, but the larger grab range(i think its about as large as ?) make it so that it wont whiff the smaller characters. also the new dthrow is a great setup throw. also, on stages with platforms, zard might land on those and kill you even earlier! its like old uthrow and uthrow had a mutant child and uthrow was the outcome.

for reference, here are the kill %s on (no rage/di): is 123%, is 130%.

Charizard can also jab cancel grab after jab 2. It might be possible to DI out of, but if so it's not easy. Charizard has a really easy time landing grabs, and this is a huge buff for him.

 

[Firefoxx]

So Falcon's uair is definitely worse for getting KO's, but its true combo juggle potential is better now. uair to uair connects at mid percents quite easily and since you no longer have to try to keep it fresh for KO's you can just throw them out like crazy.

Edit: Like, getting people from 50% to 100% wasn't really an issue for Falcon pre-patch, but it could be tricky at times particularly with rage. Now its pretty simple. Helps that the sourspot doesn't actually send people at a different angle.

 

[PCHU]

Charizard is still butt, but he's definitely more workable.
It's nice having a KO option midstage, and I really like how dthrow works now.
I'm sure he's even better offline with a GC controller; no telling how many games I nearly threw away because I didn't get the move I wanted.

 

[FullMoon]

So Falcon was nerfed but not really, figured as much.

He pretty much traded some killing power for damage racking power, which is basically a buff since he's already a walking kill move.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol charizards uthrow. This is a character that gets buffed basically every patch and people will still talk like bowser holds water over him. The presence of rage and the presence of platforms makes this hilarious.

 

[Shaya]

See? Falcon losing damages doesn't really hurt him as much as it tempers some of his extreme use cases .

I could see Up Air by itself being practically enough. Even though I cried for moveset wide reductions, stuff like this is fine enough to let settle before revaluation. If back air also lost 2% I would've been super content, but seeing as a 2% reduction on up air likely means a 4-6% reduction in every advantageous situation and 10-20% over the course of a stock, it will have its impacts; me being able to play the neutral game with Falcon for a single hit longer before camping/walling back airs becomes horrendously skewed risk/reward won't be underrated by me.

Full hop approaches will be less risky to take too, no more dying at like 120%~

 

[DairunCates]

Thank you so much for clarifying. You know, I wish there were more WFT reps in the tournament scene cause I've only seen mediocre stuff from her. Then again, she's just as popular as Olimar/Alph.

Yeah. The lack of activity in our boards makes things hard, but people are slowly discovering some fun stuff with her. Also, most of the people on those boards are academics, theorists, and creative. So, we have a FEW tricks up our sleeves. She's definitely one of the more fun characters to research since she has arguably the most varied toolkit in the game. Eventually, someone might discover something horrifying with one of her weird hitboxes. So, here's hoping.

Also, yeah. There's not many tourney Wii Fits. AceStarthe3rd's increased our popularity and TKBreezy is a good WFT. A WFT main actually won the Nintendo World Championships too (he ran shulk, because it was free for all with no customs). I've considered running tournaments myself, but I'm in one of the more competitive regions of the US (I live right next to the Tourney Locator HQ). So, I've tried to at least learn my bad match-ups first.

 

[Firefoxx]

See? Falcon losing damages doesn't really hurt him as much as it tempers some of his extreme use cases .

I could see Up Air by itself being practically enough. Even though I cried for moveset wide reductions, stuff like this is fine enough to let settle before revaluation. If back air also lost 2% I would've been super content, but seeing as a 2% reduction on up air likely means a 4-6% reduction in every advantageous situation and 10-20% over the course of a stock, it will have its impacts; me being able to play the neutral game with Falcon for a single hit longer before camping/walling back airs becomes horrendously skewed risk/reward won't be underrated by me.

Full hop approaches will be less risky to take too, no more dying at like 120%~

Yeah, its a little weird to see uair do 7% at times, but I'm actually pretty into the change.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm not even joking I want Meta Knight to be top 5 it would be so funny

No i want him to stay 'bad' so MK gets buffed again, not like anyone can use MK on day 1 and win back to back on FG aka lag zone.

 

[Kofu]

Lol charizards uthrow. This is a character that gets buffed basically every patch and people will still talk like bowser holds water over him. The presence of rage and the presence of platforms makes this hilarious.

The thing about Charizard that makes me remain skeptical is that so much of his effectiveness comes from stuff like Super Armor, invincibility (mainly partial body because his frame is so bad), and really cheesy kill moves. He has one of the strongest default up specials in the game, a wide-ranging frame 6 USmash, and now the strongest raw kill throw in the game out of a fast dash and long-ranged grab. Honestly, so many of his attacks have properties that similar ones don't just to give them an edge (his DSmash hitting aerial opponents for the same knockback as grounded ones is one example). Bowser for the most part feels a lot more well-rounded and more flexible than Charizard and lacks most of what annoys me about Zard (I could complain about his USmash however). Charizard already had powerful throws and making his UThrow this powerful was overkill for a character that doesn't really struggle to get grabs IMO.

 

[Saturn_]

Falco is great post-patch. His combos out of throws are amazing and legitimately better than Fox's. His incredible jump height is now actually useful because he has a frame 7 uair. Characters with big hurtboxes can actually get juggled very easily for 30+ damage, even at higher percents. Falco is now a much scarier matchup for a character like, say, ROB.

With his buffs to nair an uair I feel like Falco can be played in a much more aggressive way, and the fact that his throw game is now so much more useful lets him do many different kinds of approaches. I feel like he has a more total offensive package. Pre-patch Falco was just so bland overall that any strong style could beat him. I feel like he actually has a "character" now.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard's buffs mean amazing things for him.

A kill throw by itself isn't that special even if its super powerful.

But add the fact that Charizard has the best non tether grab range in the game.

And you get a pretty good grab game.

But it doesn't stop there.

Charizard's up throw rises to the top of the screen meaning the hit will be wherever the highest platform is in that vertical line.

Imagine this on Town and City.

Imagine this on Halberd.

Imagine this on Delfino.

Imagine this on Duck Hunt.

But wait there's more!

Charizard already lives a stupid long time and he is prone to getting tons of rage meaning he kills even earlier.

It's extremely significant. Probably the biggest buff anyone has received thus far.

I love this buff so much, because it turned something Zard was good at and made it something he could run with.

His new combos out of D-Throw are pretty nifty too. We got some kill set-ups now!

 

[Shog]

Imagine this on Duck Hunt.

I love this buff so much, because it turned something Zard was good at and made it something he could run with.

my thought exactly! You can make pictures of stages right? I want to show where you should Up-Throw on Duck Hunt to get the best kill chance (like marking the area to get my point across)

I also like that DownThrow has combo / followup potential, but to be fair I am to bad to make anything out of it

(If Down-Throw Dragon Rush is a true combo Charizard will be amazingly good!!)

 

[Kofu]

Charizard's buffs mean amazing things for him.

A kill throw by itself isn't that special even if its super powerful.

But add the fact that Charizard has the best non tether grab range in the game.

And you get a pretty good grab game.

But it doesn't stop there.

Charizard's up throw rises to the top of the screen meaning the hit will be wherever the highest platform is in that vertical line.

Imagine this on Town and City.

Imagine this on Halberd.

Imagine this on Delfino.

Imagine this on Duck Hunt.

But wait there's more!

Charizard already lives a stupid long time and he is prone to getting tons of rage meaning he kills even earlier.

It's extremely significant. Probably the biggest buff anyone has received thus far.

I love this buff so much, because it turned something Zard was good at and made it something he could run with.

His new combos out of D-Throw are pretty nifty too. We got some kill set-ups now!

You mean it took a character who can really only compete thanks to cheesy mechanics and gave him another one?

I can see the UThrow and DThrow buffs being extremely helpful, but I don't agree with the design choice. Plus, it was cool he had a killing DThrow, now he's just like everyone else. BORING.

Okay, I'll stop. I don't like Charizard in this game but I don't need to complain about it endlessly.

 

[Shog]

You mean it took a character who can really only compete thanks to cheesy mechanics and gave him another one?

I can see the UThrow and DThrow buffs being extremely helpful, but I don't agree with the design choice. Plus, it was cool he had a killing DThrow, now he's just like everyone else. BORING.

Okay, I'll stop. I don't like Charizard in this game but I don't need to complain about it endlessly.

Okay, why does it matter if you press or for the kill throw...people nowadays are really whiny brats

Also I shall remind you that Charizard is the king of cheese, no surprises for me

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Only reasons it matters are the nature of the throw thanks to platforms and uthrow kills look cooler.

 

[Kofu]

Okay, why does it matter if you press or for the kill throw...people nowadays are really whiny brats

Also I shall remind you that Charizard is the king of cheese, no surprises for me

It wasn't anything specific about Charizard, but there were only three killing DThrows (Charizard, Ike, Smash Shulk). The balance patches are homogenizing the characters.

It killing earlier than Mewtwo's when platforms further boosts its efficacy without having to he on them in the first place is bad design, too. I'm fine with it being a kill throw- heck, I welcome it- but its curring level is too strong.

 

[PUK]

It wasn't anything specific about Charizard, but there were only three killing DThrows (Charizard, Ike, Smash Shulk). The balance patches are homogenizing the characters.

No you can add ryu lol

 

[Shaya]

It wasn't anything specific about Charizard, but there were only three killing DThrows (Charizard, Ike, Smash Shulk). The balance patches are homogenizing the characters.

Maybe. But it's really of little consequence. In Zard's case it's status of "jesus christ scary" on every platformed stage because it's his up throw (SEISMIC TOSS).
We'll see if Charizard can be a threat. Nothing I've really seen makes him any less exploitable as he was in Brawl. Zard is virtually defenseless to rolls in on his extremely reactable moveset.
There's also the whole Final Destination balance design intent from Nintendo that's probably more of potential concern here.

 

[bc1910]

Zard is now an average-to-bad character with a top tier killing option. That's all. Problem is, that killing option is SO good when combined with Zard's natural tankiness and durability that it's enough to make him a serious threat.

None of the other characters with strong killing Uthrows (from Zard down to Marth) are anywhere near as durable as Charizard, and Charizard's Uthrow happens to be the strongest in the game. ROB and Link come the closest, but ROB's Uthrow was already nerfed and won't kill until around 150%. Link's won't do it until 160% and his grab is still bad.

Charizard can struggle to rack up damage because his moveset isn't that good, but he can easily live to the percents where rage Uthrow will end your stock at 100% or lower, even lower than that with platforms, and his moveset is nowhere near bad enough for us to say he has no hope of even building 100% on a competent player. Jab and grab alone see to that, the former being a fast move that true combos for 12% and the latter having massive range and good damage potential through the new Dthrow setups or just raw damage through Fthrow and Bthrow.

All this kind of makes Charizard the king of cheese. Viable? Time will tell, but honestly my gut reaction says yes. This Uthrow buff is the riskiest thing the devs have done so far.