Character Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

If anyone's thinking Roy and Ryu are too good, think of this: They just came out, and it's literally day 2 of their releases. Of course you'd think they'll be great since you can't develop an MU that fast, no matter what. After a month or two, we'll have a better view, and after a long time, we'll have an even better view.

As for Lucas, he has an insane U-Smash that will mess up almost everyone trying to recover horizontally. This includes, but isn't limited to: Captain Falcon, Ryu, Marth, Lucina, Ike, Fox, Falco, Ganondorf, Sheik, Zelda, Mewtwo, Palutena, Pikachu, Greninja, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong and Meta Knight. It covers quite a lot of distance and due to knockback growth, it's dangerous to opponents when their damage is too high. It's got almost as good of knockback growth as Ganondorf's Reversed Warlock Punch and Roy's F-Smash (I think Lucas' U-Smash is better with the growth).

Then with Lucas having some nice aerials and two meteors (if being hit out of D-Air while connecting the hitboxes is also a meteor, be my guest), as well as having a good special game. His specials aren't bad at all, and his D-Spec is capable of catching overzealous opponents off guard.

Calling it right now, though: Making an official tier list will be impossible due to the patches and the increase in characters as the game keeps going onward.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think Ryu is OP, I just think he's a very good character. He's only getting better day by day along with Roy so, we have grounds to believe he'll stay solid.

Ryu will ALWAYS be viable because of his ridiculous punish game and reward, though.

 

[Blobface]

@ Ffamran do you think Falco's disadvantage is better because of his new Nair? How do you feel about his changes overall?

@ TTTTTsd random question, what's the longest/most damaging true combo the Ryu boards have found at this point?

As for Zelda players, how do you fell about her buffs?

 

[Ffamran]

And in the case of Falco, they should just remove his spike property entirely and give him a drillkick like Kirby. Then i can finally have use for it, and they can stop trying to give him a spike without actually giving him a spike because of Melee/Brawl falco.

That would basically make his Dair be Fox and Kirby's. A weak, fast spike is something not many have in this have in this game which is want I want to see it on Falco.

@ Ffamran do you think Falco's disadvantage is better because of his new Nair? How do you feel about his changes overall?

Slightly better, but nothing to write home about. Nair connecting consistently means he won't have to deal with people falling out and taking some damage before continuing to beat him into a pulp. Fair being faster also lets him contest things, but it's not super fast and the landing lag is still punishable. Neither of them cover his entire body or put a notable hitbox below him; Nair is about waist up and only covers above his body while Fair also covers waist up, but covers in front of him. Uair and especially Bair do a great job of covering his back, but Dair... If he had a quicker Dair and if that meant a removal of his spike, a significantly weaker spike, or something, but it was much faster like Fox's Dair or Ryu's Dair, then Falco could cover below better and have a hitbox waist down and not have to gamble with a fast fall Nair or Fair to intercept or time a telegraphed Dair.

From what I've seen, Falco's combo game is much better, but I've yet to see the edgeguard game A2 was talking about, but it won't take that long. His air game flows much better now that his two slower aerials, a frame 10 Uair and frame 12 Fair are quicker; Uair is frame 7 now and Fair might be frame 7 or 8. Nair connecting better also adds to the consistency and flow to his air game. Now all a patch - Wolf patch, please - needs to do is figure out how to make his Dair more usable and his approach game. Falco could get a major speed boost to his run speed, but at the speed he is now, a projectile like Luigi's Fireball or Ryu's Hadouken might be better.

Falco's a safer character and perhaps a more cohesive character with a different metagame now because of the changes to his air game and his newer or changed edgeguard options. Still not a character you can be definite is a mid tier since his projectile or approach issues, mobility, and disadvantage are issues that'll hold him back.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lololol Ryu

https://youtu.be/Ap_M8AF2IxQ

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Lololol Ryu

https://youtu.be/Ap_M8AF2IxQ

No Dee Ayyyeee confirmed?

 

[Balgorxz]

Opinions on this?
Roy can B cancel aerials.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No Dee Ayyyeee confirmed?

Eh di probably stops it but ryu can walk forward during it not sure how much di messes with it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

No Dee Ayyyeee confirmed?

Actually, the method here is using C Stick attack so Ryu can inch forward.....so, IDK if SDI would work.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Eh di probably stops it but ryu can walk forward during it not sure how much di messes with it.

Well if you can't, I've been lied to then

 

[san.]

Not to mention the utilt will stale into oblivion before you could do anything.

 

[Blobface]

This "infinite" looks strangely familiar. I doubt it really s that well though.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

This "infinite" looks strangely familiar. I doubt it really s that well though.

I think you're a bit mixed up. It's familiar in that it's a bit 'y.

Opinions on this?
Roy can B cancel aerials.

Doesn't look too useful to me unless Roy can combo into the DED.

 

[Ulevo]

Opinions on this?
Roy can B cancel aerials.

Can this be done with all aerials and specials?

 

[The Slayer]

No Dee Ayyyeee confirmed?

We really need a video of that in an actual normal setup. I keep seeing it everywhere, but all I see is Training Mode/CPU (no SDI at all) setup.

 

[Firefoxx]

Can this be done with all aerials and specials?

As far as I can tell, its only sh fair and DED.

Edit: Actually, I didn't see how close to the ground fair got started in the video. I can't seem to replicate that timing at all. My guess is smooth lander was involved

 

[DungeonMaster]

So I was messing with Ryu Fair and....(sorry for the execution botches and 30000 rolls + lame voice BUT W/E)

Spoiler: GRIME

This is pretty major. Even doing this straight upwards or neutral OoS as opposed to forward, it's a LONG punish.

Actually I just posted in the combo thread you can do rising f-air -> rising f-air -> DP for 38%.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Actually I just posted in the combo thread you can do rising f-air -> rising f-air -> DP for 38%.

So FADC>Rising Fair>Fair>DP should work, right? Got %s on that combo?

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm gonna drop my thoughts on based on my experiences(almost entirely limited to fg, so take with a grain of salt)

-pk freeze is underrated. i went over this before, but the huge hitbox and quick horizontal movement combined with low endlag make it a good tool for onstage edgeguarding and tech chases.. if you commit to anything offstage, you're eating a pk freeze. if i read your tech, you're eating a pk freeze. pk freeze is an actually ok move.

-pk fire is a good neutral tool. if you shorthop it, it has little endlag, so even if it gets powershielded, wont be brutally punished. its also great for covering rolls and quick midrange punishes.

-zair is amazing. big reach, sets up stuff, tether recovery. there's nothing to say really, everything else was said.

-nair is super fun. it sets up for alot of stuff(even usmash if you catch an airdodge!), including another nair. its also a somewhat good neutral tool since you can bob+weave with it.

-the stick is actually a reliable midrange reflector. the difference between the stick and the bat that make the stick better is that the stick comes out alot quicker.

-is realistically never out of a game. usmash punishes and reads with rage are too real. i once ended the stock of a with an airdodge read usmash at 40%.

- somewhat poor individual damage output on his attacks is almost compensated by his followup game. its not level, but its something.

overall, i dont think he's as bad as some people think he is. the ****tiness of pk thunder and his grab make me sad. so does having the entire foundation of your neutral destroyed by *******.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So FADC>Rising Fair>Fair>DP should work, right? Got %s on that combo?

55% starting at zero on DDD. I think he follows the same math as the Samus combo tree.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Actually I just posted in the combo thread you can do rising f-air -> rising f-air -> DP for 38%.

You can do Rising Fair -> First hit of UAir -> Weak Uptilt into Fierce (Hold B) True SRK for 40%. It works on most chars and you can't shield or dodge out of it nor mash Nair (tested with Mario on the Nair bit.) You can sometimes jump early but since Ryu is right next to you Utilt is going to hit.

ALL OF THIS OUT OF SHIELD WORKS AS WELL MIND YOU, MID RANGE.

Working on a vid now, gonna explore/give examples.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Up-air -> up-air -> DP is also true 29% damage. It's the same as Samus really, a huge number of narrow range combos. Going to need a very dedicated player to map the whole tree out. Will probably be pretty insane to see someone with mastery of it.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Up-air -> up-air -> DP is also true 29% damage. It's the same as Samus really, a huge number of narrow range combos. Going to need a very dedicated player to map the whole tree out. Will probably be pretty insane to see someone with mastery of it.

Well, Ryu is all about combos. No doubt his "tree" is the largest out of the entire cast. I don't think complete total mastery of the tree is necessary to be truly devastating. Just some of the basic ones will suffice.

 

[Graminthesalmon]

Current thoughts on the DLC characters so far:
Lucas seems to be the best at this current point. He is most likely better than Ness (As someone who mains Ness). I believe he has potential to be high A tier.

Ryu seems like he is an A tier character, he has no glaring flaws but also requires practice to unleash his potential.

Roy seems simple in that if you know smash fundamentals he is a great character, but he lacks range and seems too clunky in that you basically need reads. He is probably also in A tier probably near the lower half, the best Fire Emblem character so far and probably the best sword wielder.

Mewtwo is too light, floaty and large to be a great tournament character. He has good kill potential and is a viable secondary, but is killed really easily so I put him at low B tier.

 

[Terotrous]

Had a chance to play for a while so now I can give my (probably useless) thoughts on the new characters.


Roy:

Roy is solid. He's basically the character he always needed to be, good on the ground and scary up close. His throws are fantastic, akin to Marth's throws in Melee, and he's got some pretty solid tilts and smashes too. Lack of L-Cancelling kind of hurts, he can't do some of the same strings he could before, but his combo game is still decent. His biggest weakness is his recovery, which is like Captain Falcon status. He definitely seems like he could be very dangerous in the right hands and I really like how they differentiated him from Marth, whom I suspect he is now a fair bit better than.


Lucas:

At first I thought Lucas was the absolute worst character in the game, but I was trying to play him like PM, and you cannot play him like PM. Purge all such thoughts from your mind now, even though Lucas's animations look very similar his moves don't have any of the same properties (what do you mean the third hit of Dair doesn't pop up?) and with his slow ass grab, dash attack, and laggy aerials going rushdown with him just doesn't work. Instead, I eventually clued into the fact that what Lucas is is a solid zoner character with extremely damaging punishes. PK Fire and Zair are both fantastic for space control, you basically just use those to frustrate the opponent until they do something dumb, at which time you grab / UTilt / FSmash / whatever and wreck their face. In some sense I actually feel like he's basically the character Samus would be if she was a good character, I found myself playing him almost exactly the way I used to play her, but with him it actually works. Also, his UpB recovery seems inordinately terrible, his UpB refuses to snap the ledge for me for some reason. Ness was never anywhere near that tough. Good thing he has the Zair.


Ryu:

Ryu is. by far, the weirdest character in the entire series, not even PM Lucario feels less like a Smash Bros character than he does. I honestly have no idea whether or not he's any good. There were sequences when I was playing him that were complete devastation, followed by sequences where he looked completely helpless at neutral. It's definitely clear that his ability to capitalize is very good, he has good kill power, and his grab and throws are quite solid, but other than that I feel like his neutral game is actually a bit weak. He appears to be one of the most unsafe characters in the game on shield, and his recovery is very linear, so you have to be quite careful in your approaches, but when he does get a hit it can be absurd. One thing is for sure, you're going to have to approach the neutral game completely differently with him compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Up-air -> up-air -> DP is also true 29% damage. It's the same as Samus really, a huge number of narrow range combos. Going to need a very dedicated player to map the whole tree out. Will probably be pretty insane to see someone with mastery of it.

The bonus is that he has a lot of guaranteed combos with things like Dtilt as well, the weak version, at all percents. It's like...he has some specifics and a lot of fundamentally ALL THE TIME GOOD IDEA ones. He's just a combo machine, and also amazing.

Also, MORE FAIR OOS STUFF (primarily tested vs. people on the ground, results may vary depending on character positioning)

Spoiler: SHORYUKENNN

 

[Lavani]

I keep seeing mentions that Roy's sh fair doesn't autocancel but that the FAF is before he lands, so he can double jump/use a B move and avoid landing lag. Do none of his aerials have an early autocancel to them so that he can just manually autocancel (lol) the landing lag without committing to something?

He's been called "Melee-like" already in this thread, it'd be the cherry on top if he had to pseudo L-cancel his sh aerials to avoid landing lag.

 

[Ikes]

Someone link me some little mac videos, KO punch shenanigans, aerial combos and whatnot. I have friends who still think he's awful, which is a sentiment i wholly disagree with

 

[Zorai]

Question: when a character is in their sheild and opts to do an aerial OoS, do you take into account the jumpsquat frames first and then the first active frame of the aerial to calculate the total amount of frames it takes?

 

[Terotrous]

Question: when a characters is in their sheild and opts to do an aerial OoS, do you take into account the jumpsquat frames first and then the first active frame of the aerial to calculate the total amount of frames it takes?

Yes.

 

[DblCrest]

Someone link me some little mac videos, KO punch shenanigans, aerial combos and whatnot. I have friends who still think he's awful, which is a sentiment i wholly disagree with

Here ya go. Could start with this one.

 

[Woohoo982]

Chracter thoughts:
Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

are all decent.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

Is not as bad as people say.

>

> > (2 marth clones? i cri erry tim)

>

>

Top 10:

Bottom 7:

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

 

[Drarky]

Chracter thoughts:
Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

are all decent.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

Is not as bad as people say.

>

> > (2 marth clones? i cri erry tim)

>

>

Top 10:

Bottom 7:

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

............No clue.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Chracter thoughts:
Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

are all decent.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

Is not as bad as people say.

>

> > (2 marth clones? i cri erry tim)

>

>

Top 10:

Bottom 7:

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

Ike is pretty viable. Just saying.
I got 2 questions: Why the heck do you think Bowser is top 10 material? What makes WFT good?

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Roy feels super viable. I love how they kept his "stronger on ground" aspect from Melee.
Not by making his aerials terrible-they feel pretty good-but his Smashes and tilts are just so good, you seem better off engaging from the ground.

 

[Smog Frog]

bruh....its not >>. its more like >>≥.

 

[Pyr]

Chracter thoughts:
Is underrated. He has good approach, a great air game and a heck-ton of kill options. Oh and down throw to bucket = 1 stock less for your opponent. "Oh but he's light as heck, he can't survive" OK, so he's light, but light =/= bad.

are all decent.

is OVERRATED. Think about EVERY bad game hype you've seen. Multiply that by 1,000,000,000,000 and you have Brawlol's overratedness.

Is not as bad as people say.

>

> > (2 marth clones? i cri erry tim)

>

>

Top 10:

Bottom 7:

Will Never be Viable unless Sakurai decides to pull a MAJOR EPIC GRAND SCALE TROLL PATCH on all of us, then proceed to do it again:

This is the type of post I hate to see here. Just "hey these are dem facts" with little to no explanation what-so-ever, and with enough blatantly wrong information that it's laughable. We should ban all posts that don't go into why when making these statements.

 

[san.]

I prefer Ike to be considered as low as possible so he gets more buffs. I welcome these posts.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

As a Kirby main, he feels the same to me.
I did not play any of the DLC characters yet (no monetary conditions), but they all have big potential. With some nice setups and stats, Ryu seems like a Top-Tier character to me. I know I said this about Mewtwo, but Ryu definetly seems to be a akwardly hard character to use, with big reward in exchange of this learning barrier.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I prefer Ike to be considered as low as possible so he gets more buffs. I welcome these posts.

It's not like Sakurai or the devs are gonna see them. :/