Character Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

All there is left to buff is zelda now =)

Good news, she already was buffed.

Up-Smash kills a lot earlier and I think FF Nair -> Farore Wind is a true combo now.

 

[Thinkaman]

Good news, she already was buffed.

Up-Smash kills a lot earlier and I think FF Nair -> Farore Wind is a true combo now.

Did we ever get confirmation on nair landing lag changed, or just the hitbox reconfiguration?

 

[FullMoon]

Did we ever get confirmation on nair landing lag changed, or just the hitbox reconfiguration?

I think the change was on the damage on N-Air increasing on the front so that leaves the opponent in more hitstun so it allows the combo into FW to work.

I'm no Zelda main though but that's how I think it works.

 

[thehard]

Does anyone see any particular function or utility to be gained from the DK cargo throw buffs?

I believe Cargo Down Toss is better for stage spiking now?

 

[Ulevo]

I prefer Roy's nair instead of fair. Fair is just too slow. Anyone knowledgeable will just rush you down at that point, while his nair is fast, has low landing lag, and combos.

They cannot rush you down during the attack due to the disjoint. They need to rush you down during the recovery, and there is only 2 frames difference between the two moves. They have reasonably the same damage output, and forward air while it comes out slower has a much better hit box. It also will not matter as much if neutral air comes out faster if you time it properly, since if you fast fall at the apex you are only getting neutral air 1 anyway.

You cannot spam forward air, but it is a very useful tool in neutral.

 

[san.]

They cannot rush you down during the attack due to the disjoint. They need to rush you down during the recovery, and there is only 2 frames difference between the two moves. They have reasonably the same damage output, and forward air while it comes out slower has a much better hit box. It also will not matter as much if neutral air comes out faster if you time it properly, since if you fast fall at the apex you are only getting neutral air 1 anyway.

You cannot spam forward air, but it is a very useful tool in neutral.

The frame data I'm looking at says that nair is 4 frames and fair is 9 frames. Nair is more than twice as fast as fair. A 9 frame aerial is not great if you want to apply short hop pressure mixups. The opponent will just go on the offensive as soon as you commit to the short hop. Nair's existence and use gives Roy all the options he wouldn't have if he relied on fair. Depending on your jump squat, 7 frames is pretty much the limit, considering most ground options are going to be 4-7 frames.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Based on my for glory matches against Ryu using various characters (can't buy him atm), these are my thoughts on some of his MUs:
vs - Normal Hadokens aren't very effective against him since he can power shield them and grab him during his cooldown. Ryu's gotta respect Captain Falcon's speed since if he hits his shield, he'll be vulnerable to many of his attacks and grabs.
vs - He's a pretty good counter against Ryu. Once he gets his KO Punch, all he has to do is wait for Ryu to hit his shield and then use it. Kinda reminds me of Dudley's cross counter, just a more powerful version. Cross counter can't combo in street fighter, can it?
vs - Tasumaki beats Wizkick (surprisingly). Command grab doesn't combo since Ryu falls too fast, and a well timed Fair will wreck his predictable recovery.
vs - DK is basically Ryu's Zangief. Dk Helicopter nullifies the Hadoken and his grab combos are pretty damaging against Ryu. Basically Ryu must respect DK's grab game and his OoS options or else face a Star KO or a meteor.

Overall, many characters with OoS options will be able to use them very effectively against Ryu since he suffers from hit lag (which is a pretty unique problem for a Smash character imo).
Wish I could say more or clarify some stuff, but the Ryu I was facing hadn't figured him out yet, so he was pretty bad.

 

[Ffamran]

I heavily dislike . He's just meh.

Aw... Well, we'll have to wait until Wolf comes back then. Any reasons? The way his moves work, throw options, recovery issues, etc?

 

[Antonykun]

question is Ryu campable?
It seems i get camped really hard as him

 

[TTTTTsd]

question is Ryu campable?
It seems i get camped really hard as him

IMO only by like, a handful of chars. Mostly the ones that were already good at it.

Doc is more campable than Ryu, I think.

 

[FullMoon]

I think Greninja might be one of the characters that has a better MU against Ryu than most, if it does turn out Ryu is top tier. F-Air is a godsend in this MU and being able to crouch under the hadoukens is nice. Plus Greninja is still just as dangerous when he gets in as ever, and he can keep Ryu at bay better with his mobility.

This is all theorycraft as I haven't really faced Ryu much with Greninja and his meta just started. I could see Ryu winning the MU as time passes but still.

I think Ryu is going to struggle with disjoints a bit, the hitlag on his moves also makes him pretty vulnerable to OoS options I believe. Plus no grab follow ups makes his grab game not too scary.

 

[Ulevo]

The frame data I'm looking at says that nair is 4 frames and fair is 9 frames. Nair is more than twice as fast as fair. A 9 frame aerial is not great if you want to apply short hop pressure mixups. The opponent will just go on the offensive as soon as you commit to the short hop. Nair's existence and use gives Roy all the options he wouldn't have if he relied on fair. Depending on your jump squat, 7 frames is pretty much the limit, considering most ground options are going to be 4-7 frames.

If you want to utilize neutral air 2 properly, you need to do a rising short hop neutral air then fast fall at the apex. If you want to use forward air properly, you need to use forward air around the apex and then fast fall. Neutral air 1 comes out at frame 4, neutral air 2 comes out at frame 13. You will get a faster aerial out of neutral air 1, but unless you're using it at the apex it really will not matter, and even then you are only getting neutral air 1 out of the attack. If you're timing your aerials with your aerial speed and fall speed so that they hit as you approach the enemy, then the fact that neutral air comes out at frame 4 really does not matter because you are not going to be next to them when neutral air 1 comes out. On top of this you can hit your opponent sooner with the size of forward airs hit box.

 

[Zorai]

Roy essentially has all the tools required to compete with Sheik in the neutral. And then on top of that, he has a good rewards:read ratio and less of a problem killing while Sheik can struggle to kill someone who's equally as fast. Theorycraft, but I wanna hear in depth opinions. Preferably people who have looked at the frame data for both characters.

 

[Ulevo]

I feel saying Roy does not have trouble killing is a misconception. Roy is similar to Mario in that he has no guaranteed kill confirms, at least none that I am readily seeing. He has moves that kill, sure, but they require reads or stray hits. I was killing people a lot with up throw, forward air off stage, the occasional spike, and stray Blazer kills out of shield or after catching air dodges. None of these are necessarily reliable options. He is similar to Marth in this sense. I would almost say Sheik has an easier time killing because, while she may not have the overall kill power Roy does, she has the tools to pigeonhole you in to situations where you have only one or two reactionary options and if you guess wrong you take a forward air or Bouncing Fish in to the blast zone.

 

[Thinkaman]

The changes in the patch we understand so far, color-coded to my interpretation of their impact.

Big buffs
Tiny buffs
Mixed bag
Non-trivial nerfs

Changes regarded as trivial not colored. Changes only included for 1.0.8, and are almost certainly incomplete and including mistakes.

Sorted by my previous 1.0.7 customs on tier list:

Sorted by Smashboards-registered tournament top 8 placings:

 

[Ffamran]

Roy essentially has all the tools required to compete with Sheik in the neutral. And then on top of that, he has a good rewards:read ratio and less of a problem killing while Sheik can struggle to kill someone who's equally as fast. Theorycraft, but I wanna hear in depth opinions. Preferably people who have looked at the frame data for both characters.

The one issue is that Roy might be prone to gimping. He doesn't have a high jump, he falls fast, and he only has Blazer for a recovery move. Backed up by all of this is his air speed, disjoints to cover landing, and Blazer's invincibility? Sheik might be able to easily gimp him once Roy's been figured out, but Roy's much stronger, has a natural disjoint, and he gets rewards regardless if he spaces or is up in your face swinging his Sword of Seals.

 

[san.]

If you want to utilize neutral air 2 properly, you need to do a rising short hop neutral air then fast fall at the apex. If you want to use forward air properly, you need to use forward air around the apex and then fast fall. Neutral air 1 comes out at frame 4, neutral air 2 comes out at frame 13. You will get a faster aerial out of neutral air 1, but unless you're using it at the apex it really will not matter, and even then you are only getting neutral air 1 out of the attack. If you're timing your aerials with your aerial speed and fall speed so that they hit as you approach the enemy, then the fact that neutral air comes out at frame 4 really does not matter because you are not going to be next to them when neutral air 1 comes out. On top of this you can hit your opponent sooner with the size of forward airs hit box.

That is one way of looking at it, interesting. Another way is that with a reactive playstyle, you want to respond to whatever option your opponent tries to use against your short hop. You can get nair2 slightly after the apex of your jump if you don't fast fall, and nair1 pretty much right when you land. This gives you 3 different timings: rising nair1->fast fall nair2, nair1 and 2 after the apex of the jump, or nair1 when landing. Of course, empty hops into grounded options are included. If you mix up your fastfall timing, you can react to most options as long as nair can outrange them and it reaches properly. At high %, nair1 can combo into other attacks and can still somewhat string at lower %.

I'm not entirely sure on the shield safety, but those 2 frames less landing lag really mean a lot, too.

Nair made me view the character with much more positivity, since I wasn't liking how he couldn't space with fair or bair very well, even though they have powerful niches elsewhere with great followup and anti-air potential.

Edit: Also, 4 frame aerials are just awesome anyways, especially with Roy's low-frame jump squat.

 

[Ulevo]

It is interesting because Roy legitimately feels like a Melee character, so much so that even though he does not have L-Cancel timing on his landing lag, you can move quickly enough with just movement options and spacing to compensate that.

 

[Ffamran]

We got even more combos now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmzOpdm_yh0. Falco looking scary. Damn nature, why you scary?

 

[Bribery]

Roy does have kill confirms but they're hard to pull off. For example, Sourspot Uair confirms into UpTilt or UpSmash at kill %s, Nair1 to UpTilt or Blazer is also a kill confirm at most %s. Roy's also pretty good at tech chasing with Dtilt and Fthrow, which can potentially lead to a kill.

I think his sourspots will become integral to his gameplan as his meta develops. At higher %s, the sourspots are pretty good combo starters and can confirm into kills. It'll require immaculate spacing to pull off consistently though

 

[.Shìkì]

Ryu is definitely the best character and the best way to describe him is what happens if you take mario, make him bigger, a fast faller, and let him kill out of BNB combos starting as early as 90 with an instant invincible kill move, and this is only day 1, Ryu might have have the tools to be the best character tbqh.

I really need to see a video for what people do against characters like Link that have disjointed hitboxed, multihitting moves and/or a lot of projectiles to spam, because I'm currently seing no land against them with Ryu... Focus Attack gets countered by the multi-hits, literally every single attack I've encountered so far beats all versions of Hurricane Kick, while every single projectile implodes and takes every type of Hadouken with it. I really am having a hard time. Pit/Dark Pit is another contender for that, although luckily my enemies tended to spam that hammer arm so far,which counts as a single hit...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mega Man can do the same thing. I'm not sure why everyone is hyping up the powershield thing when literally every character works that way.

Cuz...I didnt say powershield? I said anything unsafe and Ryus run speed is better and the range on his dp is faster. Also much faster and more consistent out of a run.

 

[kj22]

I love how you can SH F-Air with Roy and perform a jump afterward. His F-Air is really fast, and it's lovely.

Marth can do that too...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Roy essentially has all the tools required to compete with Sheik in the neutral. And then on top of that, he has a good rewards:read ratio and less of a problem killing while Sheik can struggle to kill someone who's equally as fast. Theorycraft, but I wanna hear in depth opinions. Preferably people who have looked at the frame data for both characters.

Sheik mauls Roy. He has no buttons that she cannot punish and no neutral vs her if she decides to stop humoring him.

 

[Ffamran]

Sheik mauls Roy. He has no buttons that she cannot punish and no neutral vs her if she decides to stop humoring him.

I'm going to assume this is a MU where Sheik's Needles aren't going to be doing much since Roy runs as fast as Sheik?

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is the threat of needles that gives her control. His reward however is something she must respect. Ok so mauls isnt the word, but he def doesnt win imo.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, they're sort of like opposites of each other. They're both fast, but Sheik's focused on quick, weak hits that combo while Roy is more of quick, hard hitting moves if he centers them or tippers for spacing. Since they're both fast on the ground, both fast fallers, and both have good air speed, it's like watching a ninja fight a samurai... or another ninja who just happens to like using swords more. Main differences is that Sheik has a projectile which can't really be abused against Roy who'll just rush in her and throw out a disjoint against her and Sheik's recovery is much more versatile and stronger. Roy on the other hand hits freaking hard, has a natural disjoint, and might live longer than Sheik if Sheik doesn't gimp him or kill him right.

It might just be an even MU or Roy might be so slightly disadvantaged that it doesn't matter. Maybe this is a like a Mario vs. Luigi fight where both are similar in movement - yes, yes, Luigi's air speed sucks; just go with this -, safety, etc., but one of them has an edge in other thing while the other has an edge in the other and they basically counter each other out.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Lets not also forget that have a much easier time doing the d-throw -> Uair chain grab against due to him being knock backed very close to her. I was able to do this to multiple Roy's on FG and felt a bit bad. However sheik definitively has to respect Roy options especially since one read can kill her due to Roy incredible power. How heavy is Roy exactly?

 

[Ffamran]

Roy's not heavy, he's the same weight as Sonic, but he falls fast just like in Melee. It's like how Falco and Little Mac - same weight - seem like middleweights at times, but they share the same fall speed as Mega Man. Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm going to assume this is a MU where Sheik's Needles aren't going to be doing much since Roy runs as fast as Sheik?

Sheik's needles always do much in every matchup, even if she doesn't actually use them. Their mere existence is a huge factor.

I honestly think she'd be kinda mediocre without them. That's just me though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sheik's needles always do much in every matchup, even if she doesn't actually use them. Their mere existence is a huge factor.

I honestly think she'd be kinda mediocre without them. That's just me though.

She probably would be, compared to how she is now. IMO Needles are super huge for that char's neutral and they accentuate her great frame data. They are also a only guaranteed reliable setup into Bouncing Fish which, as of now, is her only way to kill outside of Smashes.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Has any1 tested if Sheik's needles go through Ryu's Hadoukens? If they do, then I'll take back what I said about Ryu screwing her over.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Samus did not get a big buff. I don't know where people are getting that information from. Up-smash killing 20% earlier and failing to link correctly 80% of the time vs. failing to link correctly 90% does not offset not being able to missile cancel tether trump nor CS from neutral pushing you offstage to avoid reflector. It was a nerf. Again.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Has any1 tested if Sheik's needles go through Ryu's Hadoukens? If they do, then I'll take back what I said about Ryu screwing her over.

She doesnt give a damn about hadoukens. Crouches underneath, bouncing fish goes over, needles go through.

The queen of smash 4 gives no ****s about the world warrior.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I don't think Roy has tooooo big of a problem killing given that f-tilt and u-tilt exist. They kill as if they're smashes and are pretty easy to sweetspot. Pivot f-tilt is nice id your op bent tries to come in.

Roy really needs to play center stage. Being around the edge is too big of a risk at times because he can be gimped pretty easily.

Sheik is giving me some trouble with him. Her needles cover a lot of what I try to do. I rarely feel like I'm in control of the match. About 2/3rds of the cast can be handled but then some of the faster, small-combo/movestring-heavy characters can be tough.

Overall he's solid imo

 

[Smog Frog]

may i bring attention to pk freeze? its not as bad as you might think it is. sure, it may be easy to react to, but it has quick horizontal movement and a huge hitbox so that you can realistically be hit by it offstage(and i've even used it in tech chase situations!). it also has low cooldown(heh)so that even if you do miss it, isnt going to be harshly punished.

 

[Ikes]

She doesnt give a damn about hadoukens. Crouches underneath, bouncing fish goes over, needles go through.

The queen of smash 4 gives no ****s about the world warrior.

at this point i think sheik just needs a total overhaul

 

[Ryu_Ken]

She doesnt give a damn about hadoukens. Crouches underneath, bouncing fish goes over, needles go through.

The queen of smash 4 gives no ****s about the world warrior.

That's it. Sheik is Ryu's Chun-Li.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lucas is a good character. I don't see where people are coming from that claim otherwise. Damage output and KO power are great and he has numerous and powerful options to punish landings.

 

[Ffamran]

That's it. Sheik is Ryu's Chun-Li.

But she ain't got dem thighs ZSS has.

Lucas is a good character. I don't see where people are coming from that claim otherwise. Damage output and KO power are great and he has numerous and powerful options to punish landings.

Well, there's going to be a Xanadu on Tuesday, right? I hope Pink Fresh will show up to at least showcase what's transferred from Brawl and from his labbing with Smash 4 Lucas... Plus, it's nice to see people's mains come back or characters they're finding to be mains like Ryu.