Character Competitive Impressions

[DairunCates]

Ryu vs. WFT sounds like a fun MU though.

It'd either be really amazing or really boring to watch depending on the players. They're both dependent on hard reads and punishes, rack up damage really fast when they get in, and don't always have the safest kill options. So, it depends on how good both players are at baiting the other.

 

[Radical Larry]

First off, let me say that I know that Sheik's throws deal the same damage pre-patch, I just read them completely wrong (thank you, Training Mode). But now, the grab I should praise is Link's entire grab range being literally doubled; it doesn't lose its speed, and it gains full range, even better than Brawl's. This makes Link a lot better with his grab game now since he can actually grab.

Quick Question, what is Link's D-Throw trajectory? Is it now straight up or does it still go diagonally?
Also, anyone notice Link's D-Air range has been buffed once again? Because I don't remember Link's sword sticking out that far.

 

[A2ZOMG]

First off, let me say that I know that Sheik's throws deal the same damage pre-patch, I just read them completely wrong (thank you, Training Mode). But now, the grab I should praise is Link's entire grab range being literally doubled; it doesn't lose its speed, and it gains full range, even better than Brawl's. This makes Link a lot better with his grab game now since he can actually grab.

Quick Question, what is Link's D-Throw trajectory? Is it now straight up or does it still go diagonally?
Also, anyone notice Link's D-Air range has been buffed once again? Because I don't remember Link's sword sticking out that far.

Link's D-throw is something like an 85 degree angle. It's still a pretty laggy throw, but if your opponent doesn't DI at all, you can combo into U-air at KO percents. Even if they do DI though, the angle change makes it a lot easier to chase your opponent and try to catch their defensive option, making Link's grab game way scarier.

Imo Link is really good right now. The increased range AND buffed followups on his grab were the exact buffs he needed. It's worth noting that especially against Fox and Sheik who are two of Link's hardest matchups, Link gets some good combos out of D-throw. Around 30-50% or so, I'm pretty sure D-throw U-smash combos, which is like 20 damage.

Speaking of buffs, Falco is much better. The change to his N-air alone makes his entire gameplan work better now that it not only connects more consistently, but it always sends your opponent forwards, making it very consistent for edgeguards and juggles. You can just throw out N-air way more either offensively or defensively now that it connects more reliably, and it should be kept in mind it's a 3 frame aerial that does 11 damage. That's a really good speed to damage ratio.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's D-throw is something like an 85 degree angle. It's still a pretty laggy throw, but if your opponent doesn't DI at all, you can combo into U-air at KO percents. Even if they do DI though, the angle change makes it a lot easier to chase your opponent and try to catch their defensive option, making Link's grab game way scarier.

Imo Link is really good right now. The increased range AND buffed followups on his grab were the exact buffs he needed. It's worth noting that especially against Fox and Sheik who are two of Link's hardest matchups, Link gets some good combos out of D-throw. Around 30-50% or so, I'm pretty sure D-throw U-smash combos, which is like 20 damage.

Speaking of buffs, Falco is much better. The change to his N-air alone makes his entire gameplan work better now that it not only connects more consistently, but it always sends your opponent forwards, making it very consistent for edgeguards and juggles. You can just throw out N-air way more either offensively or defensively now that it connects more reliably, and it should be kept in mind it's a 3 frame aerial that does 11 damage. That's a really good speed to damage ratio.

Well, I think if Link grabs them and uses D-Throw > U-Tilt, he'd be extremely scary to them and end up doing D-Throw > U-Tilt (Repeat) and finish off with U-Smash. Fox is the fastest faller in the game, so he'd have an extremely tough time trying to get out at lower damages, and I dished out at least 40% with the combo on a Fox player with just U-Tilt. You can also finish off with F-Tilt, since it does go above Link.

But the grab range buff is just absolutely horrifying to opponents now, especially since it still has the same speed from the pre-patch.

I'm kind of surprised that Ganondorf hasn't changed. Has he? Because I don't notice it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, I think if Link grabs them and uses D-Throw > U-Tilt, he'd be extremely scary to them and end up doing D-Throw > U-Tilt (Repeat) and finish off with U-Smash. Fox is the fastest faller in the game, so he'd have an extremely tough time trying to get out at lower damages, and I dished out at least 40% with the combo on a Fox player with just U-Tilt. You can also finish off with F-Tilt, since it does go above Link.

But the grab range buff is just absolutely horrifying to opponents now, especially since it still has the same speed from the pre-patch.

I'm kind of surprised that Ganondorf hasn't changed. Has he? Because I don't notice it.

Ganon seems completely unchanged. I don't really have a problem with that, though eventually I believe he needs a faster Jab to round out his weakness to rushdown. Ganon imo is almost perfectly balanced and as he is right now, he's fun to play as and against, and generally has pretty fair matchups.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Ganon seems completely unchanged. I don't really have a problem with that, though eventually I believe he needs a faster Jab to round out his weakness to rushdown. Ganon imo is almost perfectly balanced and as he is right now, he's fun to play as and against, and generally has pretty fair matchups.

...Not even slightly more grab range?

Just a tiny bit more?

 

[Radical Larry]

...Not even slightly more grab range?

Just a tiny bit more?

Well, he at least still has his extreme-power Warlock Punch. Plus, I think that his Dark Vault custom special has a vertical range buff, aiding the recovery on that; though it needs to be tested out. Plus, I don't know if it's just my eyes, but I think his running speed has been slightly buffed.

But really, I agree with @ A2ZOMG , Ganondorf is pretty balanced as he is, though I think he's the most balanced character in the game. Not too many disadvantageous or advantageous match ups, but rather even match ups overall.

 

[Dabuz]

89 matches with Roy, 71 with Ryu, 14 with Lucas.

So, thoughts on them.

Roy is really solid, he has amazing mixups with a fast air speed, fast fall speed, ground speed, and really good roll in length, duration, and cooldown. Combined with grab combos, fast CQC moves, high damage output and power, he's one of those characters who you do not want to give an opening and he's almost certainly best played as pure pressure because his only good OoS option is up-b, his spacing isn't good, he doesn't have a good way to cover rolls while not committing much, leaving his defense lacking. His approach game is linear, with autocancel nair, empty hop grabs, running at the opponent, fair, side-B, and utilizing his roll all being viable approaches. He has no problem stringing hits, putting opponents in 50-50s with a "vortex", he has 2 different ways to stop people from pressing buttons (up-b super armor and counter), close range fsmash is grossly powerful. His recovery is better than expected with up-b being multihit, having an angle you can alter, a nice hitbox, and his ledge snap being HUGE, he's able to go offstage and contest people to an extent, and a legit viable option for him might just be using that up-B to hit people trying to recover. He also can use neutral b on the ledge to limit options and put the opponent in a really ****ty Yomi situation due to the complete lack of cooldown on the move. He has a lot of kill moves but they are all somewhat risky, with ftilt and fair being his safest common options. It's not too rare to kill with up-throw either. He is also heavy, meaning he can afford to take risks and he has crazy rage benefits. His main issues stem from being forced to approach, which leads to certain characters with solid walls being an issue, but nothing felt awful because of how destructive he is when he gets in combined with all his speed, a bigger problem is that it's very risky for him to chase offstage and catch floaty characters on platforms, so certain characters might be able to limit his pressure a bit too much if he can't catch up. I won't be surprised if Sheik ends up bodying him, though Roy all has the theoretical tools to match Sheik too so it's hard to say.

Lucas seemed very...mediocre. Now granted I didn't play much with him but the only tool which stood out for me was his side-B being really good, his ground game wasn't special, his aerials are great but are limited by not having much range, and his throws are amazing, but his grab is...well, it's a tether :L Don't take my word too strongly for him though just because I didn't put much time into him obviously

Ryu is definitely the best character and the best way to describe him is what happens if you take mario, make him bigger, a fast faller, and let him kill out of BNB combos starting as early as 90 with an instant invincible kill move, and this is only day 1, Ryu might have have the tools to be the best character tbqh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas seemed very...mediocre. Now granted I didn't play much with him but the only tool which stood out for me was his side-B being really good, his ground game wasn't special, his aerials are great but are limited by not having much range, and his throws are amazing, but his grab is...well, it's a tether :L Don't take my word too strongly for him though just because I didn't put much time into him obviously

SideB? You sure you didn't mean Tether Attack? SideB ain't worth writing home about, but the tether attack in contrast is pretty serious business.

Either way I don't think Lucas is anything special. Pretty short range on most other attacks, landing options are kinda bad, and aforementioned tether grab is a problem.

 

[bc1910]

I feel like Roy's mobility is really good, and on top of the things everyone else is already mentioning, that will keep him at least highly viable.

To be fair Greninja has (probably) the best overall mobility in the game and a lot of people think he's unviable, so that alone might not be enough. Although I always thought he was viable despite the unfortunate nerfs.

Besides, more people might see how viable he is now that he can kick you in the face whenever he wants with a fairly fast safe on shield move that has some of the best range of any normal period.

 

[Radical Larry]

I love how you can SH F-Air with Roy and perform a jump afterward. His F-Air is really fast, and it's lovely.

 

[Balgorxz]

Ryu sideB has massive endlag in the air, that is his main weakness.
characters with fast fairs like sheik and roy can exploit that, also mario's cape.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

When Falco's run speed is barely faster than his walk speed and his ability to force approaches is bad, Falco approaching is kind of sad compared to Captain Falcon, Roy, Lucina, Sonic, and Fox. Ike at least has air speed to go for spaced Bairs and Fairs, but Falco can't do much, but Ganondorf his way while being much more fragile than Ganondorf.

Approaching as Falco isn't a sad thing, it's a scary one. He may have a hard time approaching, but once he gets in, it's curtains because he can do soo much damage and shut stuff down with his jab, with combos like Dthrow --> Bair --> turnaround jab combo/ jab1 --> jab2 --> grab etc... (When the opponen is scared shielding). Falco is so good at boxing range he really gets more reward from it than any other character in the game besides luigi and fox maybe.
And also, we should luigi our in more than anything cuz we fight similar to them.

 

[B.A.M.]

Roy is absolutely ridiculous. just some of the day 1 combos Ive found. I pretty much agree with @ Dabuz le das buns. Roy has great CQC, ground speed and great combo throws. at worst he gets 50/50s from his throws if not guaranteed strings. check out what I found day 1. this character is gonna be soooo good.

I do believe Dabuz you arent highlighting hte strength of lucas' zair. Probably the best zair in the game. He can zair > fair at kill percent, zair>dthrow> aerial, zair>zair, zair>dash attack, etc. I honestly think coming with his zair and the true combos hes gets out of his dair strings at later percents are pretty remarkable.

Ryu is just......so godlike. I cant wait to see what we can findddd

 

[LightLV]

I can't stress enough how pointless Training Mode is when trying to do combos. It omits stale moves and rage, and the CPU makes no attempt to DI. Alot of things simply would not work on a player holding a controller.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol ryu...

https://youtu.be/2r5hBxl76MU

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Lol ryu...

https://youtu.be/2r5hBxl76MU

I think I might actually go and buy him now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ryu has problems but im not seeing anything less then A tier.

Shoryuken is the best punish in the game period. If he blocks any kill move from anyone its shield drop True Shoryu for a kill if they are at 95% or above its insanity. His risk v reward is skewed super heavy. He does not care how heavy his opponent is. If you do not respect him, he will end you. period.

Mega Man can do the same thing. I'm not sure why everyone is hyping up the powershield thing when literally every character works that way.

Probably not since the range is short; it's probably the game freaking out and trying to figure out how to autolink his Nair while he rises with a high jump. I bet Zelda's Nair could freak out like this if she had Falco's jump.

Could try in Training Mode with a Spring item or a Bunny Hood.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lol ryu...

https://youtu.be/2r5hBxl76MU

Bad Luck Charizard/DK.

Charizard: has gotten buffs almost every single patch so far; becomes irrelevant in the face of a Brawl degree hard counter.
DK: recently emerged as viable thanks to customs and lack of chain grabs from Brawl; another specific character infinite emerges.

On the upside, this will probably be patched.

On another note, I agree with dabuz: is underwhelming, is probably the best swordsman in the game, and is going to be "where is your god now" terrifying once people start figuring stuff with him.

 

[warionumbah2]

Mega Man can do the same thing. I'm not sure why everyone is hyping up the powershield thing when literally every character works that way.

Something to do with parry I think.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Ryu's Hadoken gets faster depending on how long you hold down the special button (not sure if it works for the Hadoken input).
Thoughts?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Something to do with parry I think.

He has a special animation on his powershield, which otherwise works exactly like everyone else's powershield, as far as I can tell.

Powershields are just very powerful and nobody is using them as such.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Probably the best zair in the game. He can... zair>dthrow>

So with this being a thing....

What you're saying is Lucas is one hell of a scary mofo.

 

[Balgorxz]

falco is literally a new character, everything that diddy had they gave it to falco lol

 

[mimgrim]

Ok so thoughts on Roy and Ryu, don't have Lucas yet (I miscalculated/forgot how much the DLC characters would cost and ended up only having enough for 2 last night, hopefully I should get him tonight to mess around with).

I don't have too much to say though.

I'm not sure on Roy yet. On one hand I can see the potential but on the other hand he seems underwhelming at times. He's got Marth's landing lag in terms of aerials without the AC windows on a short-hop aerial,his ground game seems like it should be really good though but then ends up feeling laggy for a lot of the moves. Basically I'm not sure what to think of him quite yet, it could also be a case of me not clicking with his play-style.

Now Ryu. Ok firstly I think he is weird in a Smash environment, and I'm not talking about QC and HFC motions he has as those actually feel really perfect in a Smash environment and I find it very amusing that some people are complaining about those movement and how they are obnoxious, this is probably helped by the fact that I decided to try and get into USF4 a month or two go and have been grinding out those motions for since I got it so as to get a hang on them, rather I am talking about the whole tap for weak attack and hold for strong attack. It feels very... unintuitive to me.I would have preferred they had just gone the extra mile and had made the "B" moves his strong attacks (aka hold) and his "A" moves his weak attacks (aka tap) and just had his actual Special mapped only to their motions but alas that isn't the case. I still need to get use to the whole tap or hold thing though. Oh and I can't figure out how to combo with him lol. He seems like he could be a straight up monster of a character but I can't judge him properly until I get a hang of the tap/hold thing and figure out how his moves are suppose to link together. Needless to say he has me very intrigued overall and I'm probs gonna be playing him a lot till I can at least get him figured out.

Now a little bit about Zard.

Dthrow being a combo throw at low percents and an air-dodge trap at higher percents (I'm unable to really test it properly but can Zard catch air-dodges with Up Special or does he have to read it, either way Up-Special, combined with a jump, after a Dthrow is a really good air-dodge trap leading the opponent into a 50-50 that can easily kill them if they get read right) and he kept a kill throw with the change to Uthrow. His grab is even scarier now. Along with everything else he already had. And he is still the single most underrated character in the game, imo.

 

[Shog]

falco is literally a new character, everything that diddy had they gave it to falco lol

Is that true? I am glad for the Falco Mains...we Charizard & Falco mains(I don't main Falco!) always struggled so hard
#Flyingtypesforlife #Thatain'tFalco #Firebird

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's just got his groove back with his grab. You simply just can't approach him in footsies anymore, because not only does he have coverage with his tilts and jabs, he now has a grab that will take you from afar. His B-Throw seems to have more knockback, too, which is very nice to have, and his D-Throw is the most buffed throw, since he can actually truly combo into it now with U-Tilt or U-Smash if the opponent is bad with DI. Hell, I can even hit opponents with N-Air and F-Air since the trajectory is like Sheik's D-Throw now. It's like Link said, "Hey Sheik, can I have your D-Throw, please?" and Sheik replied, "Oh sure, here you go."

It might be me again, but I think Link's D-Air reaches even further down than before, but then again, it already has incredible reach as is, so I am not complaining if that hasn't changed whatsoever. Link seems to be a very viable character at this point of the game at this patch. I hope to see him being used more now.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, this update is so big that I had to come back from Splatoon-land. Ryu looks positively ridonkulous, he's basically got Melee / PM style combos in a game where other people don't, plus a really balanced moveset with a ton of kill power to boot. Focus attack can turn around before unleashing? Insanity. He looks super hard to use though.

I also really like what they've done with Roy, they properly realized that his combos need to work. Honestly this entire update is pretty fantastic, it's good to see characters like Falco and Zard getting help, too. Good thing I recently topped up my EShop balance.

Or, to put it in Star Fox terms, "this is one steep bill, but it's worth it".

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I'm so happy about Link's buffs. They literally gave him his project m usmash. He's grab is now not to be messed with a it has increased range. Dthrow>Utilt is a thing due to the kb angle change on his dthrow.
Link now deserves a bit more respect in his MUs, don't u think?

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm so happy about Link's buffs. They literally gave him his project m usmash. He's grab is now not to be messed with a it has increased range. Dthrow>Utilt is a thing due to the kb angle change on his dthrow.
Link now deserves a bit more respect in his MUs, don't u think?

He's definitely not low or low-middle tier this time. He could be middle tier at worst, and low-high tier at best.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

All there is left to buff is zelda now =)

 

[Seagull Joe]

Falco Phantasm doesn't have a hitbox on Falco or doesn't have a hitbox for the last third or quarter of its travel unlike Fox Illusion. This means that Falco can be punished if he mis-spaces Falco Phantasm. Also, even with Fast Fire Bird, Falco is reliant on burst movements for horizontal travel which would get predictable and none of them are particularly powerful like Ganondorf's Dash Attack or Wizard's Foot or as versatile as Diddy's Monkey Flip. Falco can cover vertical distances fast, but his horizontal mobility is among the worst in the game which hurts his disadvantage as he falls fast and moves slowly in the air making juggles that much more painful compared to Fox who has a sex kick Nair to get out or Captain Falcon who is durable.


Usually, damage changes don't affect knockback, but this patch revamped Falco's Uair. Before the patch, if you hit with the legs, the sweet-spot, it killed Pit at 162% on the ground at center stage of FD on the 3DS. If you hit with the legs now, it kills Pit at 194%. That's a 32% difference. Oh, but it's on the ground, but it does make a difference. The patch basically made his Uair more like Captain Falcon's where you hit is where people get send and in this case, hitting with legs sends people diagonally. If you hit at the center or with Falco's body, they go straight up and that kills at 178%, a 16% difference.


Before the patch, Falco had two hitboxes on his Uair: his legs and his body. His legs had a lot of knockback and what you wanted to aim for juggles and kills while his body had low knockback which seems crappy, but Falco could use it to cause hit stun and confirm a Bair in the air or something like Down Smash on the ground. The body hitbox used to kill at 872% which didn't really mattered if you used it to confirm a Bair which kills at like 113%. Now, if you consider the center hit as the body hitbox, then it kills 694% earlier. Basically, Falco has a regular flip kick Uair like (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Captain Falcon, ZSS, Kirby, and even Ganondorf. Personally, I would have preferred the old Uair since it killed way earlier and offered a hit confirm option. Also, Falco doesn't have the air mobilty to juggle well like Mario, Captain Falcon, or ZSS or the ability to confirm it consistently like Luigi with his D-throw or whatever Kirby does with his Uair. It could stayed as a wickedly powerful Uair like Ganondorf's.


Didn't Wolf do this, except with just Bair? Bair walls, bro. Hey, Seagull Joe! I found your new main until Wolf comes back!

I heavily dislike . He's just meh.

 

[Radical Larry]

I heavily dislike . He's just meh.

That's until he hits you with an F-Smash Sweetspot at 40%. That attack is ridiculously powerful.

 

[|RK|]

That's until he hits you with an F-Smash Sweetspot at 40%. That attack is ridiculously powerful.

Roy is so stronnnggg

Great char.

 

[Mr. Johan]

And to remember that Robin exists in this game and still has some problems that need addressing.

I'm still salty over Fire Jab. And the platform glitch with tomes too.

 

[Firefoxx]

Revising my DED thoughts: Its not actually bad, its just that Marth happens to fall out of it very easily which is kind of weird. I'm using it on Sheik now and it works just fine.

 

[Ulevo]

For those of you who are afraid to use Roy's short hop game because he does not auto cancel, just use short hop fast fall forward air. Yes, it has lag, but Roy moves so quickly from short hop to fast fall that if you space it right it is usually negligible. This is what I was finding while playing him.

Does anyone know the frames on his aerials?

 

[Thinkaman]

Does anyone see any particular function or utility to be gained from the DK cargo throw buffs?

 

[Firefoxx]

For those of you who are afraid to use Roy's short hop game because he does not auto cancel, just use short hop fast fall forward air. Yes, it has lag, but Roy moves so quickly from short hop to fast fall that if you space it right it is usually negligible. This is what I was finding while playing him.

Does anyone know the frames on his aerials?

http://smashboards.com/threads/roy-moveset-frame-data-incomplete.406162/

 

[san.]

I prefer Roy's nair instead of fair. Fair is just too slow. Anyone knowledgeable will just rush you down at that point, while his nair is fast, has low landing lag, and combos.