Character Competitive Impressions

[Terios the Hedgehog]

That FADC fireballs thing made me think it'd be hilarious if Ryu could build an ultra that way. lol

On the Falco thing yeah. That mobility. It used to be fine because he had the laser to even the playing field. Limit them to HIS mobility but now it's an issue. I would like to see him get a run speed buff. Doesn't have to be too crazy. Maybe up to Mario level.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regarding Ryu's air acceleration, could FADC be used at all for a quick burst in either direction? I'm unfamiliar with the limitations of his various cancels.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's almost like an airdash. It's almost seamless how fast you can act when you do it low to the ground, too. I've crossed up unwary folks with it and did stuff like pivot Collar Breaker or standing mk (f-tilt, light press) to a myriad amount of followups.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ryu_Ken]

It's almost like an airdash. It's almost seamless how fast you can act when you do it low to the ground, too. I've crossed up unwary folks with it and did stuff like pivot Collar Breaker or standing mk (f-tilt, light press) to a myriad amount of followups.

Smooth Criminal

So can you use it as a sort of feint to retreat (hope i used the right word)? Like if you jump forward and then FADC backwards to fake-out the opponent, would that work?

 

[Radical Larry]

Anyone have time to go out and test Lucas' combo ability against opponents? He's got a godlike combo and throw game that is unseen as of yet.

 

[Trifroze]

This may help a bit.

Because he has predictable approach options and general short range.

Dsmash, bair, heavy jab and uair all have a lot of range with big disjoints and fsmash has the same range as Little Mac's. Fair has decent range for how fast and strong it is, and dtilt range is well above average. His dash grab is also good. Range isn't Ryu's problem but his hitlag and grab game is, although at least his grabs are fast and bthrow does 12%.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Ryu_Ken

More or less. I wouldn't recommend doing it in a way that makes it so obvious though (empty jump > FA, for example). There's a good chance that your opponent will force you to eat unnecessary damage, beat it out entirely with a multihit move (or multiple hits in general), place you in a disadvantaged state, grab you, or condition you in such a way that they can punish afterwards.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

On the Falco thing yeah. That mobility. It used to be fine because he had the laser to even the playing field. Limit them to HIS mobility but now it's an issue. I would like to see him get a run speed buff. Doesn't have to be too crazy. Maybe up to Mario level.

So... 1.6? Mario's running speed is 1.6 - also Melee Roy's running speed -, Ike and Luigi's is 1.5 - Melee Falco's running speed -, and Falco's is 1.472. Tiny little numbers, but it'd be nice if Falco ran at least as fast as Melee Falco. I mean, Roy's faster than Marth now! Roy's as fast as Sheik who has a running speed of 2.016 if Amazing Ampharos is correct.

 

[PUK]

Dsmash, bair, heavy jab and uair all have a lot of range with big disjoints and fsmash has the same range as Little Mac's. Fair has decent range for how fast and strong it is, and dtilt range is well above average. His dash grab is also good. Range isn't Ryu's problem but his hitlag and grab game is, although at least his grabs are fast and bthrow does 12%.

it's not disjointed actually, at least not fully

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah. About that. I could see 1.6 being a bit much but I think it'd be fine and fun. Marth is like...1.7 right? I think that's probably too much.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

@ Ryu_Ken

More or less. I wouldn't recommend doing it in a way that makes it so obvious though (empty jump > FA, for example). There's a good chance that your opponent will force you to eat unnecessary damage, beat it out entirely with a multihit move (or multiple hits in general), place you in a disadvantaged state, grab you, or condition you in such a way that they can punish afterwards.

Smooth Criminal

I'd hope they don't. With proper spacing, you can use this to bait out a laggy attack, a shield, or put the opponent on the offensive. Mind games, in other words. If they do hit you during the Focus with a single hit move, you get free follow-ups.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You better make sure you're good at making reads, then. Grabs > FA.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trifroze]

Also btw not sure if this has been mentioned, but shakunetsu hadoken leads into follow-ups like fair, dair and shoryuken if it hits and grab if its shielded regardless of DI. You can just shield after the first hit though if you react in time, and characters like Pikachu can crouch under hadoken completely. Not sure why they made these choices.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I haven't got the chance to play the match but I have it on good authority spindash goes under Hadoken.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dsmash, bair, heavy jab and uair all have a lot of range with big disjoints and fsmash has the same range as Little Mac's. Fair has decent range for how fast and strong it is, and dtilt range is well above average. His dash grab is also good. Range isn't Ryu's problem but his hitlag and grab game is, although at least his grabs are fast and bthrow does 12%.

On most characters, Ryu can get pretty big damage at 0 with D-throw -> Soft U-tilt -> TSRK. Plus at higher percents he benefits from a great pummel. His grab game is decent enough.

 

[Thinkaman]

Fresh Charizard u-throw at max rage kills Mario at 65% off the top platform of Dream Land 64 (WiiU).

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I haven't got the chance to play the match but I have it on good authority spindash goes under Hadoken.

60% chance you're wrong. Calling it

 

[Thinkaman]

Spindash confirmed not to got under hadoken, according to my WiiU.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah. About that. I could see 1.6 being a bit much but I think it'd be fine and fun. Marth is like...1.7 right? I think that's probably too much.

Marth and Lucina's 1.785 and Sonic's 3.5. Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed.

Mario's 1.6 puts him at average speed believe it or not while Luigi and Ike are below average and Marth and Lucina would be fast, but not speedy like Diddy, Yoshi, and ZSS. The Pits, Rosalina, Mewtwo, and Wii Fit Trainer are all faster than Mario too. The issue with Falco and Olimar is that they're just slow enough to be below below average when the 1.5 runners include Ike, Luigi, Kirby, Mii Swordfighter, and Wario. Even Samus could count as she runs at 1.504 speed. That's 6 characters total and Falco is only 0.028 off.

I haven't got the chance to play the match but I have it on good authority spindash goes under Hadoken.

Hadouken's a pretty big projectile, but it doesn't touch the ground like Wolf's Blaster. Even then, Sonic's not exactly tiny or thin as paper. Still, can Sonic clank with it using Spin Dash or Charge? Hammer Spin Dash would definitely jump over it, but I don't know about default and Burning Spin Dash probably can't.

 

[meleebrawler]

I haven't got the chance to play the match but I have it on good authority spindash goes under Hadoken.

Must have just been Spin Dash's startup invincibilty.

 

[Locke 06]

Also btw not sure if this has been mentioned, but shakunetsu hadoken leads into follow-ups like fair, dair and shoryuken if it hits and grab if its shielded regardless of DI. You can just shield after the first hit though if you react in time, and characters like Pikachu can crouch under hadoken completely. Not sure why they made these choices.

Because characters like Ibuki (bae and my sf4 character) could slide (ex neckbreaker) underneath fireballs. [If Mega could do that, it would be fun albeit unnecessary because lol pellets]

My biggest issue with Ryu is his slow walk speed. I don't have the game in front of me, but my impression was that he walked unbearably slow (although I'm coming from Marcina, DK, and Mega who have more than respectable walking speeds). Because he combos out of his tilts, he has to walk to play footsies. I also wish he could retreat without turning around (ala SF) but I think competitive Ryu players will use PP for that and get really good at it to increase his footsies. Otherwise, his footsies is basically Zelda (who's fantastic at footsies, but does not apply midrange pressure).

Rising FAir is nice, but I don't see it mitigating his lack of midrange/approach options.

Edit: This character is beautiful from a design perspective. I can't wait until the Ryu community starts abandoning "dtilt" and just says "cr. Mk" like the Mega Man community has abandoned "NAir/jab/Ftilt" for "aerial/standing/walking pellets."

Edit harder: Cr. HK (dsmash) is a move I might be criminally underrating for his footsies, since it's mostly cr. Mk that I used in my day 1 Ryu.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Called it! Guess Sonic's gonna have to powershield like everyone else. Of course, still very bad for Ryu, but delays the inevitable.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Spindash confirmed not to got under hadoken, according to my WiiU.

Hmmm weird. Like I said I heard it. Possible the Ryu was airborne and they didn't notice or something.

Ibuki doesn't go under with EX Neckbreaker, it's projectile invincible. She can go under with Sazan though.

 

[Locke 06]

Hmmm weird. Like I said I heard it. Possible the Ryu was airborne and they didn't notice or something.

Ibuki doesn't go under with EX Neckbreaker, it's projectile invincible. She can go under with Sazan though.

Ahh, I thought she always just slid under. I digress (and don't play SF a lot even though I appreciate it a ton).

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Nah. I play her and more importantly for this point Juri. She goes right through my low fireball.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Opinions on Diddy now post patch?

I don't think he's dropped as much as some people here like to claim he has.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Edit: This character is beautiful from a design perspective. I can't wait until the Ryu community starts abandoning "dtilt" and just says "cr. Mk" like the Mega Man community has abandoned "NAir/jab/Ftilt" for "aerial/standing/walking pellets."

Edit harder: Cr. HK (dsmash) is a move I might be criminally underrating for his footsies, since it's mostly cr. Mk that I used in my day 1 Ryu.

I think the Ryu boards are going to work on the lexicon as we speak. I hope we do move to that sorta vernacular, because it really suits the character and it actually makes a lot of sense.

Also, bruh, it's so satisfying catching someone with cr.HK when they try rolling backwards. It's just like I'm catching someone in SF and getting a hard knockdown.

Smooth Criminal

 

[bc1910]

Opinions on Diddy now post patch?

I don't think he's dropped as much as some people here like to claim he has.

He hasn't been truly Greninja'd like some are claiming. It's not like he's gonna plummet to mid tier. His gameplan is the same, it's still coherent, and his neutral is still very good.

He HAS dropped though. The last patch brought a bigger nerf, but ultimately it just adjusted his kill power and kill setups from throws while leaving his strongest options mostly intact. I think this is how he was able to remain top 5. With this patch though, those strong options have been hit again. His kill setups have gone from "harder" to "nonexistent" in the case of Dthrow, and Uair is significantly worse in a LOT of situations (it seems like a particularly big deal vs some characters in neutral). His Uthrow kill setups are still there but they don't kill until quite late and they're not guaranteed. I don't think he's a top 5 character any more. Top 10 is feasible but there is still stiff competition for a top 10 spot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Opinions on Diddy now post patch?

I don't think he's dropped as much as some people here like to claim he has.

Banana traps and his neutral game are still a thing. The nerfs I believe mostly affect his matchup against Mario, who now can safely D-air and U-tilt string Diddy with much more confidence.

Speaking of Mario, I believe he is very solidly counterpicked by Link right now.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I keep using SF terms to discuss Ryu but it's throwing off some chat groups. Can't wait til the terms are just integrated. Also everyone should try SFV. Watching it at E3. This is so sick. Sorry for the off-topic bit. lol


Diddy's still high tier I think. I THINK. He might have went down to mid.

Why does Link CP Mario now? Does the longer grab make a big difference?

 

[Thinkaman]

Speaking from League of Legends experience: People complain way way way more about nerfs when spread across two (or more) patches, rather than the same nerfs at once. Basic psychology.

Diddy isn't just still high tier, he's still top by almost any definition. I have him at either #5 or #6 atm.

Diddy and Sheik have especially resilient, robust kits. You could nerf any of their tools into the ground and it would only matter half as much as any other character, because they can just use their other half dozen tools. Contrast with Luigi, ZSS, Fox, Ness, or Falcon--great characters who rely more intensely on specific moves that bring their moveset together.

 

[NairWizard]

Diddy's up-air nerf was more than one nerf, in practice.

1) It was a minor nerf to his combo game, which alone probably did not move his position at all
2) It was a moderate nerf to his KO power (he still has b-air and f-air, but up-air was undeniably the best aerial KO option that he had)
3) It was a major nerf to his disadvantaged state. Up-air was a disjointed, frame-3 escape option that could KO the opponent for messing up. n-air is a poor alternative. In losing the escape properties of up-air, Diddy lost a truly good option for getting out of juggles. The reason that he won in matchups such as the Falcon matchup was because of his great disadvantaged state--risk:reward ratios were frequently in his favor compared to characters who did not have the same "get out of jail for free" card. In fact, pre-1.0.8. Diddy had the distinction of being one of only a handful of characters (less than 5-10) who got to escape disadvantage for pretty much free (these include the likes of Pikachu, ZSS, and Sheik). He still has Monkey Flip, at least, so he's above average in this respect, but no longer.

Overall I'd say that it's a significant nerf. I don't see Diddy as Top Tier any more. High Tier is still within his reach, but even that's uncertain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy's up-air nerf was more than one nerf, in practice.

1) It was a minor nerf to his combo game, which alone probably did not move his position at all
2) It was a moderate nerf to his KO power (he still has b-air and f-air, but up-air was undeniably the best aerial KO option that he had)
3) It was a major nerf to his disadvantaged state. Up-air was a disjointed, frame-3 escape option that could KO the opponent for messing up. n-air is a poor alternative. In losing the escape properties of up-air, Diddy lost a truly good option for getting out of juggles. The reason that he won in matchups such as the Falcon matchup was because of his great disadvantaged state--risk:reward ratios were frequently in his favor compared to characters who did not have the same "get out of jail for free" card. In fact, pre-1.0.8. Diddy had the distinction of being one of only a handful of characters (less than 5-10) who got to escape disadvantage for pretty much free (these include the likes of Pikachu, ZSS, and Sheik). He still has Monkey Flip, at least, so he's above average in this respect, but no longer.

Overall I'd say that it's a significant nerf. I don't see Diddy as Top Tier any more. High Tier is still within his reach, but even that's uncertain.

I don't see how the U-air nerf matters against Falcon. Falcon doesn't care what you do if he's below you and your name is not like...idk Link.

It actually matters a lot against Mario whose combo game is now much less risky against Diddy. Other than that I can't think of any other character who specifically relies so much on breakable close range juggle strings that would be affected by the frame nerf to Diddy U-air.

 

[Asdioh]

Does Diddy still have an amazing DownB and SideB? Does he still have overall good mobility, especially with his aerial options in Monkey Flip and Popgun reverse? Does he still have throw combos, albeit weaker ones, attached to a fast grab out of fast movement? Still have a great Dtilt, a spammable autocancel Fair with mild disjoint at the end, and overall fast aerials? Does he still have a very strong Fsmash that can be comboed into from banana? If the answer is yes, I'd say he's still hella good. His Upair is just now a reasonable move with a hitbox and power that makes sense. He just isn't the #1 character in the game anymore, as he clearly was before, and arguably had a fighting chance for in 1.07.

So is Sheik #1 now? Good, I still think Kirby beats her solidly. Same with Ryu most likely, if he's a high/top tier!

I've had Kirby-Shakunetsu hit Ryu glancingly and make him barely flinch and then he counterattacks. Projectiles that are unsafe on hit (like, totally the opposite of Luigi's fireballs) make me sad. Lucas' PK Thunder is the perfect example of this, even if you hit your opponent, the endlag is so incredibly massive that there's a good chance they can punish you for it anyway. pls fix Lucas upB sakurai

 

[Thinkaman]

3) It was a major nerf to his disadvantaged state. Up-air was a disjointed, frame-3 escape option that could KO the opponent for messing up.

I disagree that it was a major nerf. You don't have to tell me the importance between a frame 3 and 4 combo escape tool, but we're still talking about one frame. Yes, one frame can make all the difference and be a big deal, but it's still only one frame. Diddy hasn't been downgraded to Ganon, just Fox or MK.

Let's put it in perspective.

Let's ignore MM nair, LM nair, Rest, Rock Smash, and Grounding Dash, which are all unusual and niche combo break options.

There are only 10 characters with f3 aerials, including both Mario and Doc.

Meanwhile, there are 6 characters with f4 options, including both Pits.

That leaves 39 other characters with inferior options.

Diddy's downgrade when it comes to breaking out of stuff is non-trivial, but his uair is still one of the fastest, best aerials in the game.

 

[NairWizard]

I disagree that it was a major nerf. You don't have to tell me the importance between a frame 3 and 4 combo escape tool, but we're still talking about one frame. Yes, one frame can make all the difference and be a big deal, but it's still only one frame. Diddy hasn't been downgraded to Ganon, just Fox or MK.

Let's put it in perspective.

Let's ignore MM nair, LM nair, Rest, Rock Smash, and Grounding Dash, which are all unusual and niche combo break options.

There are only 10 characters with f3 aerials, including both Mario and Doc.

Meanwhile, there are 6 characters with f4 options, including both Pits.

That leaves 39 other characters with inferior options.

Diddy's downgrade when it comes to breaking out of stuff is non-trivial, but his uair is still one of the fastest, best aerials in the game.

The hitbox itself was nerfed, not just the frame on which it starts

unless you are telling me that his n-air is frame 4

 

[Thinkaman]

The hitbox itself was nerfed, not just the frame on which it starts

unless you are telling me that his n-air is frame 4

Diddy nair was nerfed to frame 4 (from 3) and given 2 more frames ending lag. AFAIK the hitbox itself is unchanged in every way from 1.0.6, though coming out 1 frame later in the animation affects the range accordingly.

 

[NairWizard]

Diddy nair was nerfed to frame 4 (from 3) and given 2 more frames ending lag. AFAIK the hitbox itself is unchanged in every way from 1.0.6.

This is the first I've heard of this, but if this is true and all claims to the contrary are placebo, then I will agree that he's still Top Tier.

 

[Pazx]

I think saying "Roy is the best swordsman" would be true in 1.0.7 but people are underestimating the buffs Marth and Ike received and that's not even taking customs into consideration.

~~~~~~

Lucas has got some hella good footstool to jab reset combos that can be started from a dthrow or a falling uair. He's also got fair -> dtilt which resets at a percentage where he should be able to convert to a kill in certain positions, so missing a tech against this character is bad news. Keep in mind though that footstools are untechable, making this nightmare legit. Zair is good and wavebouncing PKF and PSI Magnet are both underutilised at this point. Dtilt is okay but jab is very good. Bair is sexy.

 

[mimgrim]

i
Edit: This character is beautiful from a design perspective. I can't wait until the Ryu community starts abandoning "dtilt" and just says "cr. Mk" like the Mega Man community has abandoned "NAir/jab/Ftilt" for "aerial/standing/walking pellets."

Edit harder: Cr. HK (dsmash) is a move I might be criminally underrating for his footsies, since it's mostly cr. Mk that I used in my day 1 Ryu.

I have been tempted to do this a few times tbh. I'm already doing the slang terms for Specials because the actual terms are so annoying to type out. But I'm afraid of getting other players confused thar don't understand the terms.