Character Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

Speaking of Roy, how big is his sweet-spot compared to Marth's tippers?

His sweetspot seems to be the majority of his blade from the hilt, with just the tip and a little more of his sword being sourspotted.

it's pretty insane actually.

 

[NairWizard]

There is no art to Roy. He is just a meathead with a club shaped like a sword. I will get around to using him but its just letting the reward do the work and no i dont think Roy is better. Roy is just easier to see results with.

Sorry if that hurts anyones feelings.

Actually Im not sorry. hah

Nah, Roy's neutral game is actually interesting. His mobility and the low lag on several moves means that there are many things that you can do with him. Fastfalling, ground speed, his hilt mechanic, lagless Blazer, all of these give him interesting options and choices, and mindgames. He is truly like Captain Falcon with a sword, as has been said of Ike sometimes in the past. There is much more to CF than just reward--as I believe that you've said before, people are just not putting it to use--but the neutral depth is there, the options are there. Roy has as just as much depth as Falcon. Maybe not as much as Ryu, but it's pretty obvious that no one has Ryu's depth.

edit: 'd by Ffamran on the CF comparison

 

[A2ZOMG]

almost 100% agreed. Despite my pessimism with respect to Ryu, I don't think projectiles are a big deal at all for him, and disjoints even less so.

I think Ryu is good too, just too honest in neutral to be a Top Tier. The other top tiers like Sheik, ZSS, etc. can really take it slow and kill his chances of getting anything going in neutral.

If Ryu is to contend with them he has a long, long road ahead of him. Not in terms of developing his combo tree or mastering his intricate buttons or nonsense like that (anyone with a basic understanding of SF can do those things), but in terms of developing his neutral and figuring out matchups.

I have to say, though, EL, I think that Roy is better than Ryu at this point, and am disappointed that you didn't use him!

Disagree that Roy is better than Ryu. They both have the capacity for high reward and suffer moderately from risky approach options. Ryu however has a noticeably better disadvantage state when both his recovery and options to escape juggles are better.

Would also believe Ryu's edgeguard options are better too due to Tatsu and his frame data.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

So Zero legitimately thinks Roy is top tier now. What are people's opinions on this?

I don't really care what he says. I don't think Roy is anywhere close to top tier given his recovery and his lack of auto-cancel aerials. Probably around the mid tier range. Then again, I don't have a lot of knowledge on his MUs... Just saying.

 

[NairWizard]

Disagree that Roy is better than Ryu. They both have the capacity for high reward and suffer moderately from risky approach options. Ryu however has a noticeably better disadvantage state when both his recovery and options to escape juggles are better.

Would also believe Ryu's edgeguard options are better too due to Tatsu and his frame data.

I understand and can empathize with that point of view; I have historically emphasized the disadvantaged state myself, and I'd be willing to buy the argument that Ryu is potentially better than Roy.

However, if it's a tradeoff between neutral and disadvantage (as I think this is), I'll take the better neutral almost every time (inb4 I'm accused of being hypocritical for playing Pikachu over Falcon: I think the gap is smaller there in the neutral, please exonerate me for my crimes )

 

[Ffamran]

His sweetspot seems to be the majority of his blade from the hilt, with just the tip and a little more of his sword being sourspotted.

it's pretty insane actually.

So, you can rush in and play stupid as Roy and get massive rewards and even his tippers are decent rewards to get people off your back. Meanwhile, Marth and his precise as a surgeon's hits...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everything Roy does is unsafe.

Everything. Well dtilt is fairly safe but other then that yeah not a safe char overall.

And yet people call him top tier due to his reward.

That kinda..gives you alot of insight on how much importance this community places on reward alone and ignores neutral.

*shrug

Back to the dojo

 

[NairWizard]

Everything Roy does is unsafe.

Everything. Well dtilt is fairly safe but other then that yeah not a safe char overall.

And yet people call him top tier due to his reward.

That kinda..gives you alot of insight on how much importance this community places on reward alone and ignores neutral.

*shrug

Back to the dojo

Who exactly has called Roy top tier except for ZeRo?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok you got me. But there is alot of hype for a char that literally lives and dies by whether not he can land a grab. CF has WAY better buttons and is MUCH safer.

 

[NairWizard]

I think you underrate Roy's options in neutral. It's not all about safety.

Besides, Ryu isn't particularly safe in neutral either. His close-quarters boxing is safe, but you have to get there first. Most of the hype for Ryu so far has come from so-called combo trees and intricate inputs and 0 to deathing people. How many posts have you seen actually discussing his options in neutral (besides FADC)?

I use Ryu myself (a lot), and agree that he has more depth (or rather, breadth?) than Roy, but hopefully we can be objective about this

 

[Emblem Lord]

Only thing about Roys neutral that has me hype is Blazer. IDK i am seeing how people use Roy and its so ugly and ungraceful. I despise fighting styles that are just so..disgusting to look at.

Nothing you say will change my mind on this. He is an ugly char to watch.

 

[Smog Frog]

Everything Roy does is unsafe.

Everything. Well dtilt is fairly safe but other then that yeah not a safe char overall.

And yet people call him top tier due to his reward.

That kinda..gives you alot of insight on how much importance this community places on reward alone and ignores neutral.

*shrug

Back to the dojo

is flare blade not safe?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Everything Roy does is unsafe.

Everything. Well dtilt is fairly safe but other then that yeah not a safe char overall.

And yet people call him top tier due to his reward.

That kinda..gives you alot of insight on how much importance this community places on reward alone and ignores neutral.

*shrug

Back to the dojo

Dude that's how this community works lol. That's why Brawl ike caused such a storm even though he's ike. But after a while the hype dies down and people come to their senses.

 

[NairWizard]

Only thing about Roys neutral that has me hype is Blazer. IDK i am seeing how people use Roy and its so ugly and ungraceful. I despise fighting styles that are just so..disgusting to look at.

Nothing you say will change my mind on this. He is an ugly char to watch.

Then we will just have to disagree, which is fine: there's nothing wrong with thinking that a character is ugly to watch.

Neutral is about baiting out unsafety from the opponent and punishing it as much as it is about your own safety. Roy's movement options have me hyped, in the same way that Fox gets me hype when I watch him because of his endless baits. If that's not your cup of tea, though, that's cool.

 

[Ikes]

So, you can rush in and play stupid as Roy and get massive rewards and even his tippers are decent rewards to get people off your back. Meanwhile, Marth and his precise as a surgeon's hits...

not really play stupid, since his sword is still a hell of a lot shorter than marths, so even though his sourspot is small, his actual sweetspot area is close enough for most fighters to hit him with their own aerials. I wouldn't say he plays stupid, he just gets more consistent reward out of his sweetspots than marth does, but he has to put himself in harms way a bit more than marth does to actually land the hit. Though due to his still mid-sized disjointed area, he isnt entirely unsafe. Really well rounded IMHO.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

What limits Ryu's neutral game? I think the use of aerial FADC and Red Fireball help it, but what's keeping him from having a great neutral?

 

[Emblem Lord]

He has a great neutral.

He just doesnt have braindead neutral like Pika, Sheik and ZSS.

 

[Sucumbio]

I find Roy to be graceful in his transitions. Neutral to fsmash for instance. Clean. SHDB or SH nair or just nair to fair. All clean. It's how people use him that make him look Riga mortise. He should be treated like a faster falling marth with a heavier sword. Also he's got some excellent spacing options. I'm even starting to favor him over Ike...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thats probably it. I know when I play NEO he will prolly impress me so perhaps I will hold off my judgements till then.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

He has a great neutral.

He just doesnt have braindead neutral like Pika, Sheik and ZSS.

Winner winner chicken dinner, right here. It's silly how little those three characters have to work to press their advantage in neutral sometimes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

My opinion on Ryu's overall viability seems to be similar to that of EL's tournament experiences.
Smash is a fighting game with fighting game fundamentals, and a lot LOT more. Ryu is obviously exceptional at those fundamental game mechanics we associate with fighters. But what about all the defensive and movement options that are essentially unique to Smash? He hasn't been overtly designed to compete within that paradigm.

Heck, things like his hitboxes being as is while we're all used to bull **** hidden/non-visualised disjoints on great characters. A game which does have combos but getting continual hits is more about stage positioning, frame trapping and/or covering options than optimal inputs.

That isn't Ryu. At least not yet.

 

[mimgrim]

I think you underrate Roy's options in neutral. It's not all about safety.

Besides, Ryu isn't particularly safe in neutral either. His close-quarters boxing is safe, but you have to get there first. Most of the hype for Ryu so far has come from so-called combo trees and intricate inputs and 0 to deathing people. How many posts have you seen actually discussing his options in neutral (besides FADC)?

I use Ryu myself (a lot), and agree that he has more depth (or rather, breadth?) than Roy, but hopefully we can be objective about this

I have no hype for Ryu's combos (I still can't figure how to combo with him in this game lol) right now. So pretty much everything I'm trying to do is figure out his neutral and punish game and he has some realoy good tools to use in neutral (the majority 8f his punish game should be DP lol).

Fair has really good range to it with low landing lag along with high damage on the sweet spot, which is ****ing huge, and should have good follow-up ability on the sour spot. It is just a really good move in general that is getting little love. @TTTTSD can testify.

EX Fireball is a really great poking tool. It might not be good as a projectile but it shouldn't be used like that. It is by far one of the best poking tools in the game when used correctly.

I'm also thinking cr.hk and cr.mk are going to be really important.

And there is more.

It just isn't obvious how his neutral works and it takes effort to see how his moves are supposed to be effective. B6t I can def see how he could have one of the best neutrals 7n the game, it is just gonna take a hella lotta work to get there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Actually my losses were all last hit high percent and due to me doing dumb stuff and not thinking outside the box. I did not feel like I had no options so I'm not worried. It's day 3.

It's all good in the dojo.

Seriously people jump at you. just press and hold A.

Good things happen.

 

[Shaya]

Actually my losses were all last hit high percent and due to me doing dumb stuff and not thinking outside the box. I did not feel like I had no options so I'm not worried. It's day 3.

It's all good in the dojo.

Seriously people jump at you. just press and hold A.

Good things happen.

Yeah but you know how strong 'doing nothing' in Smash can be. Does Ryu really have the tools to annihilate this like a Luigi, ZSS or Falcon can? Or Sheik who'll take her free 10% every time you try + a free fully recharged needles for the next time?

I don't think any of this is big enough to make him unviable, just that his weaknesses seem pretty clear to me just in terms of design paradigm and context.
His strengths are obviously pretty well compensated for this though.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think the better question is how people are going to cope with Ryu doing nothing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah I think he will do fine. Just walk to close that gap, then its pure skill. Who can out wait who. Who can out react who?

Thats fighting games baby.

I love it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Luigi wins by doing nothing.

 

[Firefoxx]

Every time I play Roy, I wish I had something Falcon has (mostly initial dash and jab. Dash attack and bair too)

The only thing I really miss about Roy when I play Falcon is Blazer out of shield. And often I don't really need it, it would just get me a kill.

Not really an earth shattering assessment, but It's something I've noticed a lot these past 2 days

 

[Shaya]

I meant that Luigi's kit is pretty well versed for dealing with that, his zone of control is large and not many characters can keep him out of that optimal area.
He then forces 50/50s with great rewards.

But yeah, "doing nothing" isn't literal, you'll learn pretty quickly its true meaning from tournament experience.

 

[C0rvus]

There is no art to Roy. He is just a meathead with a club shaped like a sword. I will get around to using him but its just letting the reward do the work and no i dont think Roy is better. Roy is just easier to see results with.

Sorry if that hurts anyones feelings.

Actually Im not sorry. hah

This is my initial impression of the character as well. Is he good? I think so, he has the mobility, the very strong reward, and the disjoints that most characters would kill for. But he's way too basic for me to enjoy. Just charge in and get throw followups. His neutral isn't interesting, his punish game is linear, his moveset is very geared towards ground-based aggression and not much else.

Ryu is a breath of fresh air. A diverse, branching punish game and a strong general presence without the silly, easy neutral that most top tiers come with. He's a legitimately challenging character to The MU against him is a new sort of challenge where you need to really understand your character's boxing and footsie options before you can go head to head with him. It's like playing SF almost lol.

That said, no hate to players of either character; they both have left a very strong initial impression and I can't wait to see what they bring to the meta.


Also, Lucas is very solid. I initially saw him as a crappy Ness, since he cannot effectively use the tools he has in a similar manner. (Ness thrives on PK Thunder being a good projectile, and his good grab and very strong reward for getting said grabs.) Lucas's neutral and offstage game are areas I feel he has a lot of ways to boast a strong advantage over Ness; Zair approaches, PK Fire being a usable tool in neutral, PSI Shield stalling and edge-guarding, plus his 2 meteors. This kid is going places. However, his shield grab is very poor, and that hurts a lot in this game, not sure how good Nair OoS is.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

This is my initial impression of the character as well. Is he good? I think so, he has the mobility, the very strong reward, and the disjoints that most characters would kill for. But he's way too basic for me to enjoy. Just charge in and get throw followups. His neutral isn't interesting, his punish game is linear, his moveset is very geared towards ground-based aggression and not much else.

Ryu is a breath of fresh air. A diverse, branching punish game and a strong general presence without the silly, easy neutral that most top tiers come with. He's a legitimately challenging character to The MU against him is a new sort of challenge where you need to really understand your character's boxing and footsie options before you can go head to head with him. It's like playing SF almost lol.

That said, no hate to players of either character; they both have left a very strong initial impression and I can't wait to see what they bring to the meta.


Also, Lucas is very solid. I initially saw him as a crappy Ness, since he cannot effectively use the tools he has in a similar manner. (Ness thrives on PK Thunder being a good projectile, and his good grab and very strong reward for getting said grabs.) Lucas's neutral and offstage game are areas I feel he has a lot of ways to boast a strong advantage over Ness; Zair approaches, PK Fire being a usable tool in neutral, PSI Shield stalling and edge-guarding, plus his 2 meteors. This kid is going places. However, his shield grab is very poor, and that hurts a lot in this game, not sure how good Nair OoS is.

Lucas kinda sucks out of sheild whereas Ness's Nair out of sheild is arguably one of the best in the game. Lucas's Nair is just... eh out of sheild. And it's pretty much his only option.
But yeah Lucas definitely has a better neutral imo. It's just that Ness has a better everything else except offstage game. In terms of viability they're gonna end up pretty close to each other. Ness is better tbh but I'm gonna keep at the lab with Lucas for a while.

 

[Ffamran]

not really play stupid, since his sword is still a hell of a lot shorter than marths, so even though his sourspot is small, his actual sweetspot area is close enough for most fighters to hit him with their own aerials. I wouldn't say he plays stupid, he just gets more consistent reward out of his sweetspots than marth does, but he has to put himself in harms way a bit more than marth does to actually land the hit. Though due to his still mid-sized disjointed area, he isnt entirely unsafe. Really well rounded IMHO.

Roy's Sword isn't shorter than Marth's; it's just the way he swings his sword because of reverse-grip shenanigans. I swear his father would kick his *** for being stupid like that; Eliwood was a graceful swordsman. Anyway, if Roy had come back as a Melee Marth clone, but with all the specs he has now, Roy's range would feel the same as Marth's and he might have even felt stronger than he is now.

The thing is that Roy, Captain Falcon, and Fox sometimes gamble while fighting which is where the playing stupid comes in. They throw themselves in and overwhelm people, but they can also punish by using their overwhelming speed. It's an offensive gamble where you go all in and hope to reap rewards. High risk; high reward. That said, Captain Falcon is much safer, his jab is phenomenal, and the Capt. does have safer options and a killer Dash Attack and dash grab while Fox's very safe, especially with his aerials and has a quick confirm into anything with jab. Roy doesn't have that, but he has a disjoint to play it safer, an invincible Blazer, and his punish game might be much stronger. They all suffer from shields, but the Capt.'s dash grab and blinding speed helps.

The opposite to this who also gamble and play more with the right cards at the right time are Ganondorf, Zelda, and Falco. They suffer just like the three above where shields pretty much wreck them and they don't have safe options on shield and sometimes even on hit. Their slow mobility means they have to play the right cards or else. Still a high risk and high reward play style.

Contrast this to Sheik and Diddy. Low risk and high reward from playing a safe game because they are safe in general on pretty much everything with everything. They don't have to play stupid or gamble, they can do whatever they want and if that means letting their opponent live to 200% before killing them, well, they can.

 

[C0rvus]

Just some thoughts after reading about and playing as and against for a while:

Roy should honestly remain on the ground. People often forget how big a commitment jumping is in this game, and Roy's ground tools are better than most (high mobility, dash attack that kills, good jab, disjoints that allow you to space and punish foes for getting in close, etc.) Although he is a fast faller, his aerials don't really autocancel in any particularly useful manner, and the risk of using them outweighs the reward of landing them. Like, hitting a nair nets you some stage control, no real followups that I know of. The same thing can be accomplished with tilts, and they are much safer.

It's his reward from getting grabs that makes him more viable than Marth. Down throw leads to big damage, and up throw kills at a not-totally-ridiculous % range. Blazer is also much better than default Dolphin Slash since it kills and is a very good OoS move. Crescent Slash closes the gap quite a bit, though. Roy not having Shield Breaker means opponents will be more likely to rely on shields against Roy, which honestly may be a point in his favor, since he loves to get grabs. Not sure about his moves being safe on shield though... Marth, on the other hand really enjoys having that guard breaker option. Being able to open up an overly defensive opponent and having that passive threat makes his zoning/footsies game more potent.

I think both characters have a place in the metagame, but Roy is much easier to net results with. His reward is much stronger for a very small downgrade in range and a pretty big hit to offstage game. Marth is still more my style though. I need to be able to go off after my opponent to secure those early kills, and punishing an opening with a well-spaced tipper is too rewarding to pass up

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So Zero legitimately thinks Roy is top tier now. What are people's opinions on this?

My opinion?

Zero says a lot of things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Real talk the minute Ryus start playing like super reactively is when he's going to get absolutely horrifying.

SRKs on reaction in Smash sounds dumb...mostly cause it has the potential to be. Oh and yes Fair kicks copious amounts of ass on Ryu because it CAN be thrown out on reaction.

Oh and ofc figuring out his unique neutral, but I think really good reaction is going to be a large part of it, larger than it is for other chars, even.

 

[Ikes]

Lucas kinda sucks out of sheild whereas Ness's Nair out of sheild is arguably one of the best in the game. Lucas's Nair is just... eh out of sheild. And it's pretty much his only option.
But yeah Lucas definitely has a better neutral imo. It's just that Ness has a better everything else except offstage game. In terms of viability they're gonna end up pretty close to each other. Ness is better tbh but I'm gonna keep at the lab with Lucas for a while.

I think Lucas is only marginally better or just equal since he fares better when used aggressively. I find that alternating playstyles between cautiously aggressive and defensive is very effective.. Also, his PK fire is incredible at forcing opponents offstage, and sometimes even gimping, better than Ness' since it's got a longer reach and goes straight.

all in all I think Lucas is gonna be right next to ness on the tiers for a good long while.

Also, I was testing lucas' bair earlier and found some weird ledge jank

if you full hop fast fall his bair while facing away from the ledge, you can spike anyone trying to recover

sorry about the quality, dont have any recording hardware/software for my Wii U so it's from my phone

tested on lvl 1 CPUs and I figure it would work on the 1 frame window you have to hit players out of a ledge snap, also should work on anyone close enough to the ledge who hasnt snapped. Maybe it could be done out of a ledge trump by someone competent enough to pull it off? idk.

 

[Antonykun]

I think Lucas is only marginally better or just equal since he fares better when used aggressively. I find that alternating playstyles between cautiously aggressive and defensive is very effective.. Also, his PK fire is incredible at forcing opponents offstage, and sometimes even gimping, better than Ness' since it's got a longer reach and goes straight.

all in all I think Lucas is gonna be right next to ness on the tiers for a good long while.

Also, I was testing lucas' bair earlier and found some weird ledge jank

if you full hop fast fall his bair while facing away from the ledge, you can spike anyone trying to recover

sorry about the quality, dont have any recording hardware/software for my Wii U so it's from my phone

tested on lvl 1 CPUs and I figure it would work on the 1 frame window you have to hit players out of a ledge snap, also should work on anyone close enough to the ledge who hasnt snapped. Maybe it could be done out of a ledge trump by someone competent enough to pull it off? idk.

yes battlefield ledges are janky

 

[Thinkaman]

Lucas bair almost definitely doesn't reach the 1 frame vulnerability location; it's pretty low and off-stage. (Your video was just killing random people with no ledge invincibility.

 

[Ikes]

Lucas bair almost definitely doesn't reach the 1 frame vulnerability location; it's pretty low and off-stage. (Your video was just killing random people with no ledge invincibility.

I hit zelda as soon as she hit the ledge. I imagine she would have had invincibility there since CPUs follow the same built-in rules of the game.

yes battlefield ledges are janky

I plan on testing smashville and dreamland ledges as well, since the hitbox is off the ledge anyways, so i dont think the stage is at very important

 

[Thinkaman]

I hit zelda as soon as she hit the ledge. I imagine she would have had invincibility there since CPUs follow the same built-in rules of the game.

The built-in rules like not getting invincibility on successive ledge grabs without touching the stage, like she just did?