Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

That kinda..gives you alot of insight on how much importance this community places on reward alone and ignores neutral.

Almost not at all?

We have characters with great reward, no one actually gives a **** its like an after-thought. "Yeah your rewards great but bad neutral so forget ya kthx mid tier @ best."

 

[Ikes]

The built-in rules like not getting invincibility on successive ledge grabs without touching the stage, like she just did?

still, the one frame can still be exploited with any move that can hit the character. if a Lucas player times his bair right he can still hit the person snapping to the ledge because it's literally just a ledge grab frame where they're not invincible. you say it like it's impossible or something.

sure it may be unreliable but there's not much that can be done about it since his bair has such little endlag. any attempt at a ledge attack could be avoided with shield or just jumping away, so even if you miss the opportunity you still get a free escape, assuming you didnt do it much too late.

also having a nigh unpunishable method of killing off a ledge regrab isnt bad, especially if you dont even have to go offstage to do it.

Just tested it on Smashville and Dreamland vs Shiek, it spikes on both stages depending on your timing, since you could hit with either the third or fourth hitbox if you mess up or not

 

[Sinister Slush]

Late but, are people seriously finding out you can wavebounce specials grounded?
A-are Yoshi's really that ahead of the curve despite there being so little actual Yoshi mains?

 

[-RedX-]

I saw a Japanese Marth vine showing it off first.

 

[PUK]

still, the one frame can still be exploited with any move that can hit the character. if a Lucas player times his bair right he can still hit the person snapping to the ledge because it's literally just a ledge grab frame where they're not invincible. you say it like it's impossible or something.

No because during the ledge snap vulnerability the hurtbox is moved elswhere, lower beneath the ledge, and Lucas bair cant reach this place

 

[Ikes]

No because during the ledge snap vulnerability the hurtbox is moved elswhere, lower beneath the ledge, and Lucas bair cant reach this place

is this the case?

well that's pretty odd, I hadn't realized this.

still good for ledge trumps maybe? idk. I just mentioned it mostly in hope that some use might come of it.

it could probably still hit a few characters before they snap the ledge, since each character has a different ledge radius, from my experience.

 

[PUK]

But i think lucas's downsmash is big enough to take advantage of this mecanic

 

[Ikes]

But i think lucas's downsmash is big enough to take advantage of this mecanic

absolutely, it may not spike but from my experience (with it having a supposedly circular hitbox and the hitbox hitting behind him on the third pulse) I can only imagine it hits well below the edge.

This was a thought I had earlier, bair might be able to be used to cover ledge trumps and regrabs, but his down smash is already really good for covering initial ledge grabs.

though obviously the key difference here is that bair's spike will kill early at the ledge, but down smash wont, since it doesnt spike, and will only kill at actual kill %

 

[Nobie]

Well, he's definitely not his father who was much more methodical. Eliwood, fencer-type DLC character - as in narrow, but long hitboxes type of character -, please. Still, Roy's like a Captain Falcon with a sword. You go in and you go in hard; he's an all or nothing character.

My dream for Eliwood in Smash Bros. is that he comes with his Great Lord horse, and that you can get an extra jump by jettisoning it Super Mario World Yoshi style.

He has a great neutral.

He just doesnt have braindead neutral like Pika, Sheik and ZSS.

I think on a basic theory level, it's quite important that Ryu literally has more moves than anyone else in the game. Do you throw a jab, strong, or fierce fireball? Low short or Low forward? None of his moves are beat-alls (except for True SRK of course), but he likely has a move that will beat your move in any given situation.

 

[Signia]

I think the better question is how people are going to cope with Ryu doing nothing.

Smooth Criminal

And so, the Smash 4 meta finally reached it's logical conclusion.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And so, the Smash 4 meta finally reached it's logical conclusion.

Meh, I can still snipe you with lasers and gyros as a ROB player.

 

[meleebrawler]

And so, the Smash 4 meta finally reached it's logical conclusion.

For some reason when this happens in Street Fighter it isn't a bad thing.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Yo guys I think this needs to be a bit more known, especially whenit comes to Luigi's fireballs:
http://youtu.be/sY7tYE3v_Zc

 

[PUK]

Yo guys I think this needs to be a bit more known, especially whenit comes to Luigi's fireballs:
http://youtu.be/sY7tYE3v_Zc

is this new?
i mean did this appear after the patch?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Roy has some potential in his hit and run game. That mobility is legit.

I agree that he has similarities to Falcon in more than just one regard though Falcon looks overall more threatening than Roy so I can't see Roy go beyond low high tier as things stand. Character ain't bad though and I'm really curious to see what somebody like Neo can do with him.

Is he really the best FE character though? Marth's buffed jab is extremely hype and Ike looks just very competent all around. I couldn't tell which character is better than the other. Gonna be a matter of individual matchups [in which case Roy may actually have bigger issues than Ike and Marth].

 

[LimitCrown]

is this new?
i mean did this appear after the patch?

Crouch cancelling existed prior to any of the patches. It was described in one of the tips that you can read in the game. I estimated how much crouch cancelling reduced the amount of knockback and freeze frames dealt by attacks in the Mechanics & Techniques Discussion thread a few months ago.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still think Diddy is easily a Top 10 character, **** the haters.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Off topic, but I think as this game develops, that there will be only 2-3 true zoning characters, in a cast that will perform near 0-death punishes with more limited defensive options (punishing rolls, reading air-dodges, empty jumps into grab/jab mix ups to punish shielding) with super Intense minute spacing gameplay at high-top level since movement options are somewhat limited in this type of space.

 

[Shog]

Off topic, but I think as this game develops, that there will be only 2-3 true zoning characters, in a super punish-heavy cast. This will then produce a full circle back to smash 64 gameplay.

Is this good or bad? I liked the Smash 64 gameplay(except you get 5 stocked by better players way to easily T_T )

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Is this good or bad? I liked the Smash 64 gameplay(except you get 5 stocked by better players way to easily T_T )

It's not good or bad, it's simply a matter of preference. I like the change to that type of play, who knows. Maybe sheik will turn into brawl MK and rule this game at a top level 2 years in.

 

[deepseadiva]

still, the one frame can still be exploited with any move that can hit the character. if a Lucas player times his bair right he can still hit the person snapping to the ledge because it's literally just a ledge grab frame where they're not invincible. you say it like it's impossible or something.

You posted a video spiking sitting duck computers on the ledge with no invincibility and called it "new tech".

You should delete the video so as not to spread misinformation.

 

[Browny]

@Emblem Lord you seem to know a lot about this, so let me figure out something. Anyone else who has experience with traditional fighting games could help me out here too. I was going on earlier about people throwing out the word 'neutral game' without any understanding and using the term to justify why a character is good, in my opinion.

So today I saw this, upvoted a bunch on reddit

"Roy's neutral game is really great in my opinion. His tilts and even his neutral - A come in real handy. Even though his neutral is that simple forward swipe up, it comes out at a decent speed and I've been able to string some extra aerial combos together from it."

Is that correct?

My definition of the neutral game is the situation where both characters are in a standoff and its basically who can force the enemy to over-commit first. The best characters in neutral are characterised by having safe-on-block moves, projectiles and basically never have to commit to an unsafe approach while having really hard defense to get through.

Therefore, this would give Roy a poor neutral game since he has none of those. Having disjointed standing moves doesnt mean anything if you cant force the enemy to approach you.

How does roys neutral compare to sheiks?

I'm perfectly open to being wrong about how I see neutral game here. I just dont see how Roy is going to deal with sheik in neutral, and by that definition, has a poor neutral himself.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Roy can approach, which like Falcon, gives him a decent neutral. Not quite sure about how jab and tilts play into that.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Roy can just hover outside of your range with good movement

 

[Blobface]

Yo guys I think this needs to be a bit more known, especially whenit comes to Luigi's fireballs:
http://youtu.be/sY7tYE3v_Zc

I could see this actually helping a lot of heavies against Luigi, since their D-Tilts all have so much range. It'd be especially good for heavies since they get combo'd so hard by him.

 

[Zelder]

The secret meta with Ryu is hitting the A button, throwing out the hard kick accidentally cuz you held it too long, and killing your opponent. AND THEN PRETENDING LIKE YOU DID THAT ON PURPOSE

 

[mimgrim]

My definition of the neutral game is the situation where both characters are in a standoff and its basically who can force the enemy to over-commit first. The best characters in neutral are characterised by having safe-on-block moves, projectiles and basically never have to commit to an unsafe approach while having really hard defense to get through.

That is the general idea of the neutral, yes. It, of course, goes deeper then the base idea and there are multiple ways to get a player to over-commit and not necessarily through approaching.

Take for example, Greinja. On the surface his neutral might seem eh and he doesn't have the safest moves out there. But he has some of the best mobility in the game to where he wants to stay just outside of the opponents range, so you want to look like you are approaching even though you aren't. Doing this the Greninja waits for the opponent to over-commit since he (the Greninja) is at such a threatening space to the opponent and that with his god-tier mobility he he can capitalize off of the smallest mistake at that range.

While the properties of a character's moves are important to the neutral game, mobility is also super important (especially in a game like Smash).

Whether or not any of this applies to Roy is another story though.

 

[Smog Frog]

That is the general idea of the neutral, yes. It, of course, goes deeper then the base idea and there are multiple ways to get a player to over-commit and not necessarily through approaching.

Take for example, Greinja. On the surface his neutral might seem eh and he doesn't have the safest moves out there. But he has some of the best mobility in the game to where he wants to stay just outside of the opponents range, so you want to look like you are approaching even though you aren't. Doing this the Greninja waits for the opponent to over-commit since he (the Greninja) is at such a threatening space to the opponent and that with his god-tier mobility he he can capitalize off of the smallest mistake at that range.

While the properties of a character's moves are important to the neutral game, mobility is also super important (especially in a game like Smash).

Whether or not any of this applies to Roy is another story though.

if the mobility is the key thing, then is in the clear. he has roughly equal mobility to , air and ground. safety, however, is not matched.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

All it is two characters trying to hit each other lol and their ability to do so. Safe on block moves are notable given that you don't really lose anything for throwing them out if someone shields. There are more defensive options then shielding (walking, dashing, jumping, rolling, spot dodge, Counters, heavy armor, Super armor) so just being safe on block doesn't mean you win neutral but it helps. Sheik is 7th fastest dasher and the 5th fastest walker in the game, on top of things like crouching, her air speed, movement specials, and one of the best rolls in the game. Sheiks neutral isn't good just because she has poke moves, she has some of the best movement specs of the bes in general which let her not only approach, and force approach from needles (as well as aim for punishes off how one deals with her needles) but evasively move or engage with her movement. Plus girl has disjoints for no reason.

Roy doesn't really have much for pokes but he's got good movement himself, so he's alright in neutral.

Ps: For a tangent. Still rather fight Sheik then Zss who is also a fast PoS except Zss hits harder given Sheiks individual hits are legit wet noodles. Lol'd when Zero did what 15 attacks for 61% but no one ever questions how **** the damage output is because of Sheiks neutral game.

 

[Flamecircle]

Can someone explain to me why Roy's moves are apparently safer than Marth's? I read in the patch thread that their frame data on cloned moves was comparable.

 

[Smog Frog]

they arent. you would have to space moves for the tipper, which have low shieldstun and shield knockback. , on the other hand, has tippers that produce enough shieldstun and shield knockback to be safe.

 

[Asdioh]

So today I saw this, upvoted a bunch on reddit.

Friendly reminder that Reddit is literally full of casuals, who upvote anything For Glory related, and come out of the woodworks whenever a high level player makes a claim about X character being good or something, all saying they agreed the whole time etc.
It's a terrifying place, I just go there in the hopes of finding neat gifs! I occasionally see names I recognize from here posting reasonable stuff there, but the place is a lost cause.

if the mobility is the key thing, then is in the clear. he has roughly equal mobility to , air and ground. safety, however, is not matched.

It is really important. That's the main reason Kirby is considered to have a poor neutral. He has relatively fast and safe aerials and tilts, and good frame data on most of his moves, but his movement speed is so underwhelming that it's hard to surprise opponents by getting through their defenses unexpectedly, like you can with Falcon, Sheik, Sonic, etc.



Do you guys have any notable matches on youtube of the new DLC characters being played at a high level? I saw some good Roy and Lucas action on S@X last night, but only a little.

 

[Flamecircle]

they arent. you would have to space moves for the tipper, which have low shieldstun and shield knockback. , on the other hand, has tippers that produce enough shieldstun and shield knockback to be safe.

So basically, Roy isn't safer, it's just that being speedy helps him threaten?

I guess that reminds me of Falco and Fox where most of Falco's grounded moves are better/safer/stronger, but he's generally considered inferior due to not being able to close the distances.

 

[bc1910]

Been playing with Lucas a lot more. Hard to say whether he's as good as Ness or whatever, but this character is definitely not bottom 10 in my opinion. PK Fire is actually really good, with good spacing it's hard to punish even on powershield if your character's dash speed is not stellar. Run back > PK Fire is very nice, and of course you have wavebounce shenanigans with it which are really good if you SH towards your opponent, since they allow you to bait a defensive option and retreat. When your opponent catches on and tries to attack or shield, you can just hit them with Fair, Nair or even tomahawk grab if your spacing is good.

Zair is insane, but everyone seems to know that. I think a big part of what makes it good is that quite simply, its hitbox is pretty generous. Most Zairs in this game just miss for no reason. Trying to actually hit with Link's Zair is painful. The effictiveness of Zair and PK Fire alone make Lucas seem at least better than low tier to me.

"PK Hoo Hah" is very good, but it's DI-able. Lucas' Dthrow is interesting because he can act almost as soon as his opponent gets launched, but his slow and floaty double jump makes it hard to follow their DI on reaction if you act quickly. If you act too slowly, they can airdodge out of any true follow-ups. Lucas' Dthrow > Uair starts killing at around 115% but what's nice is his Uthrow will kill at around 140%, which isn't TOO much later. Bthrow and Fthrow can kill earlier than that near ledges. His grabs are still dreadful; I think he has the worst pivot grab in the game, with his dash and standing grabs being bottom 5. However, against any character with bad landing options you should be able to get a reasonable number of grabs. You can trap landings dings by using PK Fire and Zair to harass opponents on the way down. Once again I think this sets Lucas apart from many of the characters who are worse than him, he has actual landing traps that can lead to very high rewards.

EDIT: @ NachoOfCheese You may have missed the posts but Ampharos said he could be bottom 5, wedl put Lucas in his bottom 10 and various other players including Dabuz have expressed that they are underwhelemd with Lucas.

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With all this talk about the neutral game, I wanted to add that I think Greninja's Ftilt buff takes his neutral from "good" to "great". It gives him a fantastic tool in the neutral (fast, ranged, safe on block poke) which complements his mobility and can be used out of a backwards run. I really want to see some results from Greninja now because I think this buff can bridge gap he was struggling to cross between "viable" and "unviable".

His biggest weakness now is his poor OoS game, but I don't think it's bad enough to hold him back. The same goes for his supposedly poor frame data; his average frame data is poor, but actually the moves he relies on in neutral are perfectly fine frame-wise, even moreso now that Ftilt has low ending lag. His fastest move is f3 and he has plenty of moves with f10 startup or less.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Been playing with Lucas a lot more. Hard to say whether he's as good as Ness or whatever, but this character is definitely not bottom 10 in my opinion. PK Fire is actually really good, with good spacing it's hard to punish even on powershield if your character's dash speed is not stellar. Run back > PK Fire is very nice, and of course you have wavebounce shenanigans with it which are really good if your SH towards your opponent.

Zair is insane, but everyone seems to know that. I think a big part of what makes it good is that quite simply, its hitbox is pretty generous. Most Zairs in this game just miss for no reason. Trying to actually hit with Link's Zair is painful. The effictiveness of Zair and PK Fire alone make Lucas seem at least better than low tier to me.

"PK Hoo Hah" is very good, but it's DI-able. Lucas' Dthrow is interesting because he can act almost as soon as his opponent gets launched, but his slow and floaty double jump makes it hard to follow their DI on reaction if you act quickly. If you act too slowly, they can airdodge out of any true follow-ups. Lucas' Dthrow > Uair starts killing at around 115% but what's nice is his Uthrow will kill at around 140%, which isn't TOO much later. Bthrow and Fthrow can kill earlier than that near ledges. His grabs are still dreadful, but against any character with bad landing options you shouldn't have too much trouble getting grabs. You can trap landings by using PK Fire and Zair to harass opponents on the way down. Once again I think this sets Lucas apart from many of the characters who are worse than him, he has actual landing traps that can lead to very high rewards.

---------------------------

With all this talk about the neutral game, I wanted to add that I think Greninja's Ftilt buff takes his neutral from "good" to "great". It gives him a fantastic tool in the neutral (fast, ranged, safe on block poke) which complements his mobility and can be used out of a backwards run. I really want to see some results from Greninja now because I think this buff can bridge gap he was struggling to cross between "viable" and "unviable".

His biggest weakness now is his poor OoS game, but I don't think it's bad enough to hold him back. The same goes for his supposedly poor frame data; his average frame data is poor, but actually the moves he relies on in neutral are perfectly fine frame-wise, even moreso now that Ftilt has low ending lag. His fastest move is f3 and he has plenty of moves with f10 startup or less.

Who's saying Lucas is low tier? I thought we established that he's aight.
And sure he can Dthrow up air and Bthrow and Uthrow KO but what good is it if his grab is ass? So that's why I feel like his grab game is a bit overhyped. He really shines in spacing with Zair, and this will become more and more influential as the game develops. But yeah nobody is saying he's bad as far as I can tell >.>

 

[FullMoon]

Maybe now that Sakurai gave Greninja an actual F-Tilt he can give him an actual standing grab.

It's kinda sad that Lucas's tether is faster than it right now.

 

[Smog Frog]

Who's saying Lucas is low tier? I thought we established that he's aight.
And sure he can Dthrow up air and Bthrow and Uthrow KO but what good is it if his grab is ***? So that's why I feel like his grab game is a bit overhyped. He really shines in spacing with Zair, and this will become more and more influential as the game develops. But yeah nobody is saying he's bad as far as I can tell >.>

@Amazing Ampharos holds(held?) a REALLY low opinion on , dunno if thats the case now.

 

[David Viran]

Maybe now that Sakurai gave Greninja an actual F-Tilt he can give him an actual standing grab.

It's kinda sad that Lucas's tether is faster than it right now.

I would kill for a grab as fast as greninja's grab.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Made a quick video of that grounded wavebounce Neutral-B thing Thinkaman pointed out:

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's standing grab has the highest range of any non-tether grab but it's f14. It's like a pseudo tether that trades range for lower ending lag but the startup is abysmal. Most tethers are f12. ZSS' f16 tether is still a worse grab but f14 isn't much of an improvement, it's still reactable, Greninja's standing grab is bottom 5 in the game.

Fortunately he has one of the best dashgrabs to make up for it.