Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

I don't want to derail this topic with another hypothetical digress, but if it were up to me, Sheik needles would have less endlag, do significant bonus shield damage, and gain one Needle charge every time she lands any normal attack against a character.

...and cannot charge or gain Needles otherwise, on her own.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't want to derail this topic with another hypothetical digress, but if it were up to me, Sheik needles would have less endlag, do significant bonus shield damage, and gain one Needle charge every time she lands any normal attack against a character.

...and cannot charge or gain Needles otherwise, on her own.

I don't like this idea as much as Needles having less range, personally. Mario's Scalding FLUDD is pretty close to what Sheik's needles should have been if you ask me.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't want to derail this topic with another hypothetical digress, but if it were up to me, Sheik needles would have less endlag, do significant bonus shield damage, and gain one Needle charge every time she lands any normal attack against a character.

...and cannot charge or gain Needles otherwise, on her own.

I'm curious what the design goals are behind this change.

 

[Zelder]

If it were up to me, I'd...remove Shiek from the game! HAHAHAHA

*jetpacks away*

No but seriously, a character this fast shouldn't also be this good from a distance.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol no thanks Thinkaman.
End-lag is sufficient.

 

[Thinkaman]

Needles is a really satisfying move to use that fits Sheik's feeling, but we can't reward her with this tool for actively avoiding combat. Not with the speed to enable it.

It would be like if Little Mac could charge KO punch by running away, except worse because Needles is a ranged tool.

A single-use ranged trump card is an appropriate reward for Sheik engaging the enemy, not the opposite. It's also really cool and stylish as a combo finisher followup option, which this emphasizes.

Nerfing endlag doesn't fix the underlining problem of the move--it's an unreactable ranged tool. That isn't a thing that should exist, period.

 

[Flamecircle]

Wouldn't the best just be reduce it's range? It's mostly satisfying to confirm bouncing fish from.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wouldn't the best just be reduce it's range? It's mostly satisfying to confirm bouncing fish from.

A range nerf is surely the most effective simple solution. It's treating the symptoms, but at least it treats them rather well.

 

[PK Gaming]

Who tf cares who the worst character in the game is why does this discussion keep coming up and what purpose does it serve?

Cut that thought terminating garbage out. Don't try to forcibly control the discussion just because you don't like the direction it's heading in.

 

[Goesasu]

fire wall, speed thunder and gliding elwind makes robin an amazing character, you cant approach to him even sheik struggles. He is just unexplored trust me.

youtube app cant grt fast enough.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Is my idea about clanking the first Needle in a chain which creates a domino effect that stops the other Needles still on the table? =V

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How about we just nerf the startup of needles to the times of smash attacks (good startup for needles imo) and just increase the shield damage and regular damage? Seems simple enough.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Robin is bad and idk about Lucina yet. Her lack of sweetspot is highly unimpressive.

I think you know what I meant but yeah I can agree on that haha.

I guess I should say between Marth, Ike, and Roy, it's REALLY hard to pick one that looks better at this point cause they (at this period in time) all have had significant improvements.

 

[Blobface]

How about we just nerf the startup of needles to the times of smash attacks (good startup for needles imo) and just increase the shield damage and regular damage? Seems simple enough.

Wouldn't it just be free shield damage then?

What makes Sheik so polarizing is that she has the best tool for forcing approaches and loads of safety for snuffing approaches. Needles with increased startup would still force most characters to approach. A character with Sheik's general safety shouldn't be forcing approaches in general. They should be approaching.

 

[Ikes]

Is my idea about clanking the first Needle in a chain which creates a domino effect that stops the other Needles still on the table? =V

this would be good, but i think it could still be a little bit on the strong side. I'd say this, AND any move clanks needles, even the worst jab in the game.

is that too harsh?

 

[Zorai]

How do people think Ryu does vs. Sheik?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wouldn't it just be free shield damage then?

What makes Sheik so polarizing is that she has the best tool for forcing approaches and loads of safety for snuffing approaches. Needles with increased startup would still force most characters to approach. A character with Sheik's general safety shouldn't be forcing approaches in general. They should be approaching.

Then make it start at f12 or something. Increased startup= telegraphed

 

[NairWizard]

How do people think Ryu does vs. Sheik?

No one has a positive matchup vs. Sheik. Very likely no one has an even matchup vs. Sheik either (maybe Sonic, Rosalina, Fox? or they lose slightly...Kirby/MK have a small claim to an even matchup too). Ryu is not an exception to this rule.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Cut that thought terminating garbage out. Don't try to forcibly control the discussion just because you don't like the direction it's heading in.

It's headed here countless times and I want to know how it benefits anyone. Serious question. What purpose does it serve?

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, my thoughts on needles since watching Rain vs Choco (and rain vs others) is it's all the range's fault.
I've said this a few times here, but every time an enemy of Rain made an engaging movement and then backpedaled, they got done in for 10% and another fully charged set of needles.
Choco would dash forward, jump at a fair distance away and then choose to fall back because Rain wasn't within an optimal range. With the mobility that's behind ZSS, he could fall back an almost full stage length away and then get done on his landing (have to tip my hat to Rain for being perfect at this, I don't think I ever saw anyone successfully land into shield to avoid needle hits against him).

That's the stupidity of her neutral, having godlike CQC tools, with a very competitive mid-range game while having a long range tool that will punish ALL mid-range interactions WITHOUT FAIL. The only solution we see, which becomes apparent when Sheik is at a stock deficit, is never making commitments while being outside mid range and forcing Sheik to move forward. However Sheik's approach is legitimately garbage (when comparing the rest of her kit), this weakness is much like MK had in Brawl which tempered his dominance as most of the cast would be given percent leads against him naturally and then had much better attrition against MK's lack of projectile, no reliable clashing with enemy projectiles and average walk speed. Sheik doesn't really share those issues with MK (while having different ones of her own), at least 90% of the cast have no hope in hell of winning the war of attrition against Sheik when the entire stage is her *****.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I actually think Falco is one of the better characters against Sheik now that his N-air is a legitimately fair answer to Sheik's air game. He has the ground game, a reflector, and even pretty good combos and deep edgeguards to challenge Sheik. Previously his main weakness in the matchup was he had no answer to Sheik's aerial rushdown when N-air was too inconsistent.

 

[Ffamran]

I actually think Falco is one of the better characters against Sheik now that his N-air is a legitimately fair answer to Sheik's air game. He has the ground game, a reflector, and even pretty good combos and deep edgeguards to challenge Sheik. Previously his main weakness in the matchup was he had no answer to Sheik's aerial rushdown when N-air was too inconsistent.

He's slow as sin, Reflector gets baited out, and he can't out zone or counter zone her. His disadvantage and advantage are better now, but Sheik can still bait out and play games on Falco to combo him to hell.

 

[A2ZOMG]

He's slow as sin, Reflector gets baited out, and he can't out zone or counter zone her. His disadvantage and advantage are better now, but Sheik can still bait out and play games on Falco to combo him to hell.

Falco actually can land against Sheik at mid/long range unlike a number of characters when Reflector protects you from Needle land traps. That's a pretty big deal. Also trading Blasters against Needles is favorable, even factoring Sheik can duck under Blasters, she won't be charging Needles as efficiently against Blaster Shots at long range. At long range, Reflector is fast enough in neutral to react to Needles and reflect them.

Sheik does combo Falco but Falco's physics both help and hurt him on that regard. He can block and Jab Sheik out of F-tilt strings earlier than most characters and off the stage Falco sometimes goes too low for certain things to properly string.

From what little I've tried in this matchup, I legitimately feel pretty good. Falco's slower grab for me is the main annoyance especially when trying to shieldgrab things, but I feel Falco can pretty reliably keep up with Sheik's spacing, and has the reward to make it a competitive matchup.

 

[Shaya]

I've always had pretty alright luck with Falco because he has two tools that negate Sheik's needle wars, while having a similar potency CQC as Sheik.

Slowness and never getting back to neutral is kind of a thing, but there is a degree of feasibility in never reaching that point.

It's headed here countless times and I want to know how it benefits anyone. Serious question. What purpose does it serve?

Because we're in a day and age where patches are frequent and the biggest buffs comes to characters that are readily, audibly and LOUDLY stated as "bad" by the community. Our understanding of why they're weaker than others helps in many ways. My interpretation here may by jaded, but I never get why people want some rose coloured fluff discussion of only "character strengths" when these are pretty easy to observe on the surface by nearly anyone who can pick up a controller while the rest tends to require deeper analysis.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I actually think Falco is one of the better characters against Sheik now that his N-air is a legitimately fair answer to Sheik's air game. He has the ground game, a reflector, and even pretty good combos and deep edgeguards to challenge Sheik. Previously his main weakness in the matchup was he had no answer to Sheik's aerial rushdown when N-air was too inconsistent.

I'm all ears homie.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No one has a positive matchup vs. Sheik. Very likely no one has an even matchup vs. Sheik either (maybe Sonic, Rosalina, Fox? or they lose slightly...Kirby/MK have a small claim to an even matchup too). Ryu is not an exception to this rule.

Rosalina loses to sheik. It's like 6-4 sheik. It's a pretty hard MU for rosa. But it boils down to a couple of things mobility fair and edgeguarding. Sheik's fair is extremely hard for rosa to deal with. I don't think any of the top Rosalina players like the MU. Although, I only know dabuz's opinion which may have changed. But from my experience and watching dabuz vs vinnie or Xaltis vs master raven. It's not a good MU.

 

[BSP]

a long range tool that will punish ALL mid-range interactions WITHOUT FAIL.

But then the rest of the MU exists

 

[Ryu_Ken]

So basically from what I'm hearing, Sheik is the new Diddy of Sm4sh just because she's a combo machine who has little risk for an extremely high reward.
What do we have to do, make all her moves do 1% damage?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Because we're in a day and age where patches are frequent and the biggest buffs comes to characters that are readily, audibly and LOUDLY stated as "bad" by the community.

I would love to think that were true. Trust me. I would.

 

[Shaya]

But then the rest of the MU exists

I'm guessing you're referring to Hydrant?
With that in mind, I actually really wonder what Hydrant is used/good for. I'm sure we're all aware of air dodge hydrant or "lol try to juggle me on wifi" usages. And I think janky stuff like relying on the water to push things into position isn't a thing either.

But beyond edge guarding/anti-recovery drops, temporary air stall and feasibly slowing the game down momentarily (although I think this is dubious when water timing is fixed and sh ff games are often adequate and good characters can dash right through it) I tend to think most of Pac's power comes from his general floatyness, up-b zoning and fruit.

Back to not punishing mid-range interactions, I'm not sure how Pac does that. I wouldn't really think of him as a mid-range focused character (not saying his mid-range is bad or anything).

I would love to think that were true. Trust me. I would.

Correlation between buffs and bottom tier perception from Japanese lists seems hard to consider coincidental. The western sphere hasn't really made any solid attempts to do the same, but the variation in our opinions tends not be too far apart.

So basically from what I'm hearing, Sheik is the new Diddy of Sm4sh just because she's a combo machine who has little risk for an extremely high reward.
What do we have to do, make all her moves do 1% damage?

I don't think people make the direct comparison much, little of what made Diddy bonkers exists on Sheik (damage output, kill power, hitboxes/priority). It's a somewhat common understanding that Sheik sits in a precarious spot and her only overarching issue is Needle's power. Her reward isn't fantastic either.

 

[Blobface]

I would love to think that were true. Trust me. I would.

As annoying as it was, Samus's nerfs were a result of changes to general mechanics rather than direct nerfs.

Doesn't excuse U-smash still being U-trash though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I've always had pretty alright luck with Falco because he has two tools that negate Sheik's needle wars, while having a similar potency CQC as Sheik.

Slowness and never getting back to neutral is kind of a thing, but there is a degree of feasibility in never reaching that point.



Because we're in a day and age where patches are frequent and the biggest buffs comes to characters that are readily, audibly and LOUDLY stated as "bad" by the community. Our understanding of why they're weaker than others helps in many ways. My interpretation here may by jaded, but I never get why people want some rose coloured fluff discussion of only "character strengths" when these are pretty easy to observe on the surface by nearly anyone who can pick up a controller while the rest tends to require deeper analysis.

Well yeah, I never said I wanted that kind of discussion. I just wanted to know why we kept talking about it. And now I do. So thank you.

Anyways, I'm not sure how Falco would do in the Sheik matchup but I'm really glad at the very least they're making his moves function (up smash and Nair).
Now all they gotta do is get rid of the blind spot of Phantasm and make lasers less terrible and voila. Falco becomes viable enough to get some rep.

 

[Balgorxz]

So basically from what I'm hearing, Sheik is the new Diddy of Sm4sh just because she's a combo machine who has little risk for an extremely high reward.
What do we have to do, make all her moves do 1% damage?

keep sheik like that buff everyone else

 

[Woohoo982]

what would G&W and rob matchup against sheik would be

 

[Ryu_Ken]

keep sheik like that buff everyone else

That would be a bit problematic when you think about it, don't you think?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

That would be a bit problematic when you think about it, don't you think?

Don't worry. It's not like that would happen anyways, considering how they nerfed Diddy not once but twice after that whole mess.

 

[Nobie]

I'm sometimes bothered by when people say that there's no point in discussing the lower tiers, because they're not going to be a factor at tournaments.

I know that winning is important and all, but I think there's a kind of purely academic merit to actually hashing out how the 50th worst character in the game does against the 45th worst character in the game, even if it won't show up often. It's that sort of thinking that helps us to both examine how we think about the game, and takes things like tier lists away from being character selection guides like how so many people end up using them.

Also, re: the idea of neutral as baiting over-commitment, I'm reminded of this actually being a big criticism of Smash 4. Remember the earlier days (and some people still do this), where the issue was that you couldn't shffl the opponent without incurring a grab? According to this view point, it wasn't "fair" (no pun intended) that short hop aerials could be considered over-commitment, because over-commitment should be limited to defending and not attacking.

Anyway, I'm picking Infiltration as Ryu as Smash 4 EVO 2015 champion.

 

[Shaya]

keep sheik like that buff everyone else

I'd rather hit the thing producing problems and then buff her other things back to a point where she overall feels better for both her players and her opponents.
Because otherwise you need to ask, how do you buff characters to combat that problem?

Give everyone else god-tier low risk projectiles? Random/janky reflectors on people's jabs?
What about guaranteed kill options out of a throw from 50-60% onwards? That sure keeps Sheik at bay... "Yeah sheik can needle me about 50 times a match, but I only need to hit her 4 times and then grab her" *balanced*.

She has a broken tool, and while we can look back at some of Brawl's tools (Snake grenades, double bananas, ICs blizzard/ice blocks, Falco's lasers, wario's wheels) and think they're similar strength or not problematic, needles have significantly more static interactions compared to the rest of them, especially when you think of counterplay. The closest comparison is Falco's lasers, which required jumping, mild tech barriers and could be reacted to. It obviously takes skill to use Needles but at optimal implementation (as we see now) it's completely thoughtless flow charting.

 

[Thinkaman]

Anyway, I'm picking Infiltration as Ryu as Smash 4 EVO 2015 champion.

I'll take that bet!

 

[1337Kai]

Alright everybody, the votes have been tallied and I have the newest tier list from /r/smashbros for you all. There were no big changes in the poll or game really this month, so it will be interesting to see how people feel about the characters now that the patch has settled a bit and we've had some events..NOW HERE WE GO!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories.

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)
(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)
(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)
(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)
(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)
(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)
(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)
(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

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Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
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Which character do you think is the most overrated?

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3.

Which character do you think is easiest to use?

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2.
3.

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

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2.
3. /

Which character do you love to fight the most?

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Which character do you play as as most?

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[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

Is this including customs? If so these placements are SO off.