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Character Competitive Impressions

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Ryu_Ken

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I don't know why people think of such convoluted ways to nerf needles when all they need is a startup lag nerf. Shoutouts to an optional range nerf.
I actually thought about that before I posted, but then I realized that nerfing startup lag wouldn't do much at all and is pretty unnecessary (would make her pretty unbalanced like Diddy).
Jack diddly squat NEEDS to be nerfed in this game. Sheik's presence doesn't invalidate a single member of the cast, let alone a huge portion of the cast. COULD Sheik's needles be nerfed to be a bit healthier? Possibly; but just deal with the situation and understand what you can do about it because even Sheik as a whole isn't unhealthy.
I wasn't implying that they needed to be nerfed, just that the current state that they're in can be dealt with w/o the need of any nerfs. Reflectors and characters with quick projectiles can deal with Sheik's needles quite well while the rest of the cast would struggle against them.
Btw, Link and Falco are still waving at Sheik. I think they're really trying to get her attention...
 

Sodo

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Interesting idea, and I'm not perpetuating that we actually do this... it's just a thought. Still early for a list but at least a way to get some healthy discussion going...

Our conventional approach to competitive tier lists has been to rank every character at once based on viability. This is obviously what a tier list is intended to do, but I think we've kind of been going about it the wrong way. I'm a huge basketball fan, and I'm always interested in reading discussions on the greatest players across eras, how they rank against each other, etc. A website called RealGM creates a "Top 100" of the NBA/ABA's greatest every year, and their method is thought-provoking.

Generally, there is a panel that decides the four to six candidates that they think could/should be ranked #1. Usually the most knowledgeable, influential members of the community create the starter list. So, for our purposes, we would most likely start with Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Pikachu, etc, however many we think are actually contenders for #1. The number is usually five or six to keep discussion diverse. They start at the top, and for a designated period in time they vote on who they think is #1. Votes don't count without an explanation. Simply voting ZSS for #1 without an accompanying descriptor is nullified in the final vote check. If two characters are tied at the end, a one day discussion/voting period is had to decide who is more deserving of the spot before moving on.

The interesting part... only the characters that are currently in the rotation can be voted upon. So, if the list starts with Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, and Pikachu, you can't vote for Wario but you can nominate him to be allowed to be voted upon in the next voting period. So, a typical post would appear as such:

Vote: Sheik
(Discussion, reasons why Sheik is #1, blah blah blah)
Nominate: Wario

At the end of the voting period, Sheik wins #1 with ten votes and Wario was nominated six times, so our new list looks like this:

1. Sheik
2. (Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Pikachu, Wario)

Discussion then begins on who is #2. The nomination system provides a way for us to present a fresh face (and maintain a character count) to the rankings.Generally, they don't exactly win the next voting period but are at least available to vote on. We would repeat this process a number of times until every single character is ranked. This would allow a vast amount of time for discussion, presenting evidence, discuss counters/checks to characters, etc. We would basically be building a compendium of knowledge which would allow every character to be given a fair shot and everyone to have their opinions heard.

The current community tier list is definitely an appreciated effort and I like what they are doing, but it seems that discussion is sort of all over the place because any character can be voted on at any time (and without explanation). With the RealGM method, discussions are the groundwork of the threads they have, and very seldom do you see a post with less than multiple paragraphs. Seriously, it's bonkers how heated some of the discussions get. With five or six or seven characters to vote on rather than the entire roster, more in-depth discussion can be had and more accurate results can be procured from rankings.

Of course, no method is foolproof, and this does have limitations:

1. Patches are constantly changing characters and the metagame in general. Diddy was pretty unanimously one of the best characters in the game on release, but a discussion now would probably not see him at #1. A check or counter character to Diddy is no longer as valuable as they once were.
2. How many characters get voted upon per period? At RealGM they usually have five or six on the list at all times, but we may have to up that number because some feel their character may not have gotten a fair shake, or could have been voted to a higher spot if they were available to vote on earlier.
3. Customs on or off? How do we decide how this factors in?
 
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ILOVESMASH

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Reflectors aren't that good of a response to Sheik's needles because nearly all of them have quite a bit of startup while Sheik's needles come out too fast for most reflector users to react.
 

Luigi player

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Reflectors aren't that good of a response to Sheik's needles because nearly all of them have quite a bit of startup while Sheik's needles come out too fast for most reflector users to react.
They come out too fast to even react with shield xD (which is frame 1), so yeah... you can only predict it, unless you're really far away maybe. if you're near enough and shield Sheik can suddenly run up to you and grab you... can't even react to that. and then she gets combos and throws you off... :[
 
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Diddy Kong

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Where would you have placed Diddy in 1.0.7? Which characters (if any) do you think have moved above him?
I'd personally still put Diddy in 1.0.7 at #2, just slightly above Rosalina and Pikachu, but definitely under Sheik. I think Rosalina, Pikachu and possibly Luigi are better now. But Diddy is still extremely versatile, so I have a real hard time picturing the likes of Sonic, Fox, Mario, Captain Falcon, Villager or anyone else mentoined above him. F Air is still godly. Bananas are godly. Side B is awesome. And despite the U Air nerf, he can still land KOs with it. Otherwise, Banana > F Smash or Rocket Barrel Attack will solve things. And it's not like Diddy cannot damage people extremely quickly, almost as good as Sheik. So I still predict ZeRo winning everything with Diddy, because he's still good, but each nerf has been a heavy one so I hope they don't touch him further.
 

Ryu_Ken

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I still don't think Sheik's needles completely invalidate the reflectors. If you're not super close to Sheik and have good judgment, you can reflect them. It's all situation dependent really, whether you're off-stage coming on stage, trying to land, or if Sheik's jumping at you with them. Even looking at Sheik's frame data, its not too ridiculous to react to as long as you know the MU.
 

Zorai

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Sheik would guaranteed still be top tier, if not flat out still the best, even with a needle nerf (increased startup).
 
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NachoOfCheese

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This is part of why Kirby has a decent sheik matchup. He doesn't need to react to needles. He can crouch. And if he gets an inhale he can have 1.0 needles.
But I still don't think he wins the matchup because Sheik's fair beats pretty much everything and bouncing fish kills really early on Kirby. It's still winnable imo and this is important.
A couple patches ago this would not have effected Kirby's placement as much as it does now.
 

Firefoxx

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Diddy Kong has won more reported tournaments that matter (not locals, basically) from the beginning of 1.06 to now. Diddy has 9 such wins, while Sheik has 7. Luigi is third with 6, and Falcon and Fox are tied for 4th with 5.

This level of winning is actually fairly recent, as the last time I check this like 3 weeks ago, Diddy was quite a bit behind Sheik and Luigi.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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Wonder how needles would fair if they just dropped in dmg.
This is part of why Kirby has a decent sheik matchup. He doesn't need to react to needles. He can crouch. And if he gets an inhale he can have 1.0 needles.
But I still don't think he wins the matchup because Sheik's fair beats pretty much everything and bouncing fish kills really early on Kirby. It's still winnable imo and this is important.
A couple patches ago this would not have effected Kirby's placement as much as it does now.
Wait her fair beats what other then shield. Kirby's up smash is disjointed his back air does more damage and is an unfavorable trade for her given you can't shield in the air...her spacing requirements to be safe also allow a pivot f-smash to work. You can "beat" fair what's difficult is that it's only one option of many others she has and you'll naturally have to make a larger commitment then her to do so but as a floaty LW, the reward can justify the risk given Kirby's ability to fall out of the strings that give her a semblance of reward.
 
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Ryu_Ken

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reacting to needles is not the problem, the problem is the needles reacting to you
THANK YOU.
Aren't multijumps a joy given needles don't travel horizontally in the air...
Multijumps don't last forever. Plus, the fact that the needles travel diagonally AND the fact Sheik has really high/fast jumps doesn't make it a better option than running at her on the ground.
 

Smog Frog

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the more i think about it, the more i'm intrigued about how it would turn out. how would :4sheik: needles be if they functioned like :4lucas: pk fire? pk fire is a great tool for controlling space, but it has decent amount of lag, isnt transcendent, and moves slower.
 

Ryu_Ken

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the more i think about it, the more i'm intrigued about how it would turn out. how would :4sheik: needles be if they functioned like :4lucas: pk fire? pk fire is a great tool for controlling space, but it has decent amount of lag, isnt transcendent, and moves slower.
Well, Sheik's game would suffer significantly since her projectiles would clank and they would be easier to anticipate and reflect. I feel that it would be like the Ness MU where the opponent literally waits for Ness to throw the PK fire so that they can punish it.
 

Rafitak

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Interesting idea, and I'm not perpetuating that we actually do this... it's just a thought. Still early for a list but at least a way to get some healthy discussion going...

Our conventional approach to competitive tier lists has been to rank every character at once based on viability. This is obviously what a tier list is intended to do, but I think we've kind of been going about it the wrong way. I'm a huge basketball fan, and I'm always interested in reading discussions on the greatest players across eras, how they rank against each other, etc. A website called RealGM creates a "Top 100" of the NBA/ABA's greatest every year, and their method is thought-provoking.

Generally, there is a panel that decides the four to six candidates that they think could/should be ranked #1. Usually the most knowledgeable, influential members of the community create the starter list. So, for our purposes, we would most likely start with Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Pikachu, etc, however many we think are actually contenders for #1. The number is usually five or six to keep discussion diverse. They start at the top, and for a designated period in time they vote on who they think is #1. Votes don't count without an explanation. Simply voting ZSS for #1 without an accompanying descriptor is nullified in the final vote check. If two characters are tied at the end, a one day discussion/voting period is had to decide who is more deserving of the spot before moving on.

The interesting part... only the characters that are currently in the rotation can be voted upon. So, if the list starts with Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, and Pikachu, you can't vote for Wario but you can nominate him to be allowed to be voted upon in the next voting period. So, a typical post would appear as such:

Vote: Sheik
(Discussion, reasons why Sheik is #1, blah blah blah)
Nominate: Wario

At the end of the voting period, Sheik wins #1 with ten votes and Wario was nominated six times, so our new list looks like this:

1. Sheik
2. (Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Pikachu, Wario)

Discussion then begins on who is #2. The nomination system provides a way for us to present a fresh face (and maintain a character count) to the rankings.Generally, they don't exactly win the next voting period but are at least available to vote on. We would repeat this process a number of times until every single character is ranked. This would allow a vast amount of time for discussion, presenting evidence, discuss counters/checks to characters, etc. We would basically be building a compendium of knowledge which would allow every character to be given a fair shot and everyone to have their opinions heard.

The current community tier list is definitely an appreciated effort and I like what they are doing, but it seems that discussion is sort of all over the place because any character can be voted on at any time (and without explanation). With the RealGM method, discussions are the groundwork of the threads they have, and very seldom do you see a post with less than multiple paragraphs. Seriously, it's bonkers how heated some of the discussions get. With five or six or seven characters to vote on rather than the entire roster, more in-depth discussion can be had and more accurate results can be procured from rankings.

Of course, no method is foolproof, and this does have limitations:

1. Patches are constantly changing characters and the metagame in general. Diddy was pretty unanimously one of the best characters in the game on release, but a discussion now would probably not see him at #1. A check or counter character to Diddy is no longer as valuable as they once were.
2. How many characters get voted upon per period? At RealGM they usually have five or six on the list at all times, but we may have to up that number because some feel their character may not have gotten a fair shake, or could have been voted to a higher spot if they were available to vote on earlier.
3. Customs on or off? How do we decide how this factors in?
I really believe this guy is on to something
 

Ryu_Ken

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How come we don't have a back room yet?
Just curious.
 

san.

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This may seem drastic, but I'd prefer needles not being chargeable, then reducing the endlag and charge time by a lot, especially in the air. This will make it similar to Greninja's shuriken and Diddy's Peanut (being cancellable). I think the charging quality just adds to the camping ability, and should only be kept for attacks like charge shot. Sheik isn't Samus lol.
 

Ikes

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Can Ness/Lucas absorb Dr. Mario's pills? since they're not energy projectiles like Mario's are...
 

Sodo

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Well considering we don't have a back room or anything, I think so too.
How come we don't have a back room yet?
Just curious.
I'm relatively new to Smashboards, how is the Back Room decided? Is it quality of posts, tournament results, what's it based on? Because if you had a good mix of verified competitive players, stat geeks, and intelligent/reasonable debaters, you could most definitely construct a (mostly) accurate tier list. I would think you'd avoid theorycrafters to an extent but you always need one person thinking outside of the box haha.
 

Ffamran

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This may seem drastic, but I'd prefer needles not being chargeable, then reducing the endlag and charge time by a lot, especially in the air. This will make it similar to Greninja's shuriken and Diddy's Peanut (being cancellable). I think the charging quality just adds to the camping ability, and should only be kept for attacks like charge shot. Sheik isn't Samus lol.
Or they could base Sheik on Hyrule Warriors' design and have her use kunai or throwing knives. So, more damage per knife compared to per needle or senbon - each kunai does 5% up close and 2% far away -, but less can be stocked up - 3 max -, travel a bit slower, have less range - only half of FD, but in the air, infinite distance 'cause gravity -, and they're more visible. Oh, and they kill now, however, there's more startup and end lag - perhaps Sheik could throw each kunai if she stores them on the ground, but in the air, she just tosses them like Needles. Speculah. :p

Still, how far do Needles travel anyway? Too lazy to check. The whole, only the final Needle does knockback could work as someone like Ganondorf can walk through the other Needles and only feel knockback with the last one.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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I'm relatively new to Smashboards, how is the Back Room decided? Is it quality of posts, tournament results, what's it based on? Because if you had a good mix of verified competitive players, stat geeks, and intelligent/reasonable debaters, you could most definitely construct a (mostly) accurate tier list. I would think you'd avoid theorycrafters to an extent but you always need one person thinking outside of the box haha.
A lot of what you said is what the BR is supposed to be in practice.

But, y'know, **** works out differently around here. Hopefully they get it right this time.

Smooth Criminal
 
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GeneralLedge

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What if Sheik Needles traveled in a ground-hitting sort of 'sweep' forward instead of straight-ahead? Short/medium range would act the same as currently, but further away would require a higher needle charge to hit at all, and would hit only as many times as the range permits.

It would make aerial usage more interesting too.
 

Ryu_Ken

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What if Sheik Needles traveled in a ground-hitting sort of 'sweep' forward instead of straight-ahead? Short/medium range would act the same as currently, but further away would require a higher needle charge to hit at all, and would hit only as many times as the range permits.

It would make aerial usage more interesting too.
I don't really follow. Maybe a picture would help?
 

GeneralLedge

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That looks like it would have disgusting edgeguarding potential.
This slipped my mind.

Although actual utilization would require reading specific second-jump timing on your opponent (if at all), and the actual distance between needles may make aiming beyond the first one very difficult.

Then again, this all fits into sheik's mantra of casuals being bad and robots being gods. It just makes Needles less "obnoxious".
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Some ledge drop differences; not all ledge drops are created equally.



Can be hit by the average D-Tilt/D-Smash: Bowser Jr., Charizard, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Falco, Greninja, Jigglypuff, Link, Kirby, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Mega Man, Meta Knight, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordsman, Olimar, Pac-Man, Pikachu, R.O.B., Rosalina, Sonic, Toon Link, Villager

Can only be hit by moves hitting under the ledge: Fox, Ganondorf, Ike, Little Mac, Lucario, Lucas, Ness, Palutena, Peach, Robin, Roy, Sheik, Shulk, Wario, Wii Fit Trainer, Yoshi, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus

Basically cannot be hit by a grounded opponent: Bowser, Captain Falcon, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Mewtwo, Mr. Game and Watch, Pit, Ryu, Samus
 

Thinkaman

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Have you ever found yourself wondering how tier placement, popularity, tourney results, and patch changes relate to each other? Do you like pictures and colors? Well, today's your lucky day!



Hopefully no one catches on that this is all an elaborate ruse to post an old tier list again!

Edit: I used a no customs rankings; for customs, just mirror Palutena and WFT to the right side.
 
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Asdioh

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You didn't explain the colors so I'm guessing... gray is no change, blue is heavy buffs, green is slight buffs, and the few at the top are nerfs?
And Kirby's top 20 in the cast in top 8 placings, even though he's listed as bottom 1/3 in most tier lists? hmm
 

Ulevo

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The only issues I see with Sheik in general are that her forward air hit box is too big for what it offers and her ground Needle Storm cannot be reacted to. Though if I had to give her a tweak and could only afford one, I would adjust the needles so they come out slower on start up.
 

Thinkaman

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You didn't explain the colors so I'm guessing... gray is no change, blue is heavy buffs, green is slight buffs, and the few at the top are nerfs?
And Kirby's top 20 in the cast in top 8 placings, even though he's listed as bottom 1/3 in most tier lists? hmm
Yeah, deep blue is big buffs, light blue is medium buffs, green is small buffs, grey is no change, yellow is a small mix of small nerfs and small buffs, red/orange is people who got several medium nerfs, a jab buff, and are named Diddy Kong.


Edit: For all our complaints about Sheik (and I'm totally on board that train), current Sheik is a rather tame top character in the grand scheme of things.

Current Sheik < Previous Sheik < Previous Diddy Kong < Any top-tier in any previous Smash title
 
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