Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

This is the first I've heard of this, but if this is true and all claims to the contrary are placebo, then I will agree that he's still Top Tier.

I mean, this is just the mechanical explanation for what we're observing. It doesn't hit (as much) below Diddy anymore, because the hitbox is coming out one frame later, when he is actually starting the kick proper.

 

[David Viran]

Speaking from League of Legends experience: People complain way way way more about nerfs when spread across two (or more) patches, rather than the same nerfs at once. Basic psychology.

Diddy isn't just still high tier, he's still top by almost any definition. I have him at either #5 or #6 atm.

Diddy and Sheik have especially resilient, robust kits. You could nerf any of their tools into the ground and it would only matter half as much as any other character, because they can just use their other half dozen tools. Contrast with Luigi, ZSS, Fox, Ness, or Falcon--great characters who rely more intensely on specific moves that bring their moveset together.

If sheiks needles got nerfed to the ground it would hurt her alot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

One thing I can say for certain IMO.

Ryu's not great vs. projectiles but compared to the char I used to main (Doc), he gets camped by them a lot less. I think disjoints can kind of suck sometimes but I think he handles literally everything better than the last char I played, even Ryu's shield options are amazing.

In summary I'm not even going to throw out a tier position but I am going to say he's viable. I trust myself enough to say this, with all of the experience and time I put into Doc, Ryu feels much more rewarding, when he gets in it's ridiculous, etc. etc. viable for sure. Like Ryu's problems seem like very minor setbacks compared to who I played before him, haha.

Going to start experimenting with Cr. MK into Shakunetsu for forcing options, that sounds like fun.

 

[Thinkaman]

If sheiks needles got nerfed to the ground it would hurt her alot.

I'm actually not sure I agree, though this would have a large impact on a lot of matchups.

Contrast with taking away ZSS's Boost Kick. Now what does she do?

 

[NairWizard]

I mean, this is just the mechanical explanation for what we're observing. It doesn't hit (as much) below Diddy anymore, because the hitbox is coming out one frame later, when he is actually starting the kick proper.

While this makes sense, I had heard that in addition to the 1-frame delay in startup, the hitbox itself was nerfed throughout the move. If I'm mistaken (as appears to be the case), I take back any claims of Diddy being below High Tier. It is his most important tool.

also for reference n-air is frame 8, so if he lost his up-air escape it would be truly disruptive to his viability

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can anyone tell me what's happening here?

http://gfycat.com/GrandioseForkedCutworm

I was under the impression that you couldn't wavebounce on the ground.

 

[David Viran]

I'm actually not sure I agree, though this would have a large impact on a lot of matchups.

Contrast with taking away ZSS's Boost Kick. Now what does she do?

Yes it would change alot of MU because look at sheiks kirby MU he is considered to go even with her because he does not care about needles.

As for zss's boost kick. That would mainly hurt her oos game. Everything else would be fine.

 

[Lavani]

Can anyone tell me what's happening here?

http://gfycat.com/GrandioseForkedCutworm

I was under the impression that you couldn't wavebounce on the ground.

You definitely can.

 

[bc1910]

Taking away Flip Jump from ZSS would be much more harmful than taking away Boost Kick.

 

[Ffamran]

Diddy nair was nerfed to frame 4 (from 3) and given 2 more frames ending lag. AFAIK the hitbox itself is unchanged in every way from 1.0.6, though coming out 1 frame later in the animation affects the range accordingly.

Wait... I thought Diddy's Nair was frame 8.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait... I thought Diddy's Nair was frame 8.

I meant uair, not nair. Sorry!

 

[Asdioh]

You definitely can.

But how?!

 

[Ffamran]

I meant uair, not nair. Sorry!

Okay, so Diddy's Uair is frame 4 now? Not that bad... It's 1 frame compared to a 3 frame change to Falco's Uair which is noticeable, though subtle. Meanwhile... Falco's Fair startup... Seriously, nobody's checked exactly and it's killing me since it feels fast, but I don't know how fast. It's not frame 12, but if it's frame 6, then holy hell.

Also, Diddy's Uair being a sex kick and frame 3 was kind of ridiculous, but I don't know how it worked in Brawl despite being the same move since Brawl. Well, hit frames... well... Before the patch, Diddy's Uair was pretty much the same in startup in Brawl, a frame 3 Uair. Hitbox, power, damage, eh, I'm not sure. Personally, I would have liked Uair and Nair to switch frames. Why? Most Nairs are supposed to be a quick, get off me move or some move with good coverage, but when Diddy has a Uair that does almost the same thing, but kills, and is significantly faster, then Nair's kind of useless. If Nair was frame 3, then whatever and I could still see Diddy being able to use it like Uair because of the coverage, although the vertical range might be a bit shorter. As for Uair being frame 8, it could have been much more powerful without being broken or something like what Captain Falcon, Falco, ZSS, Luigi, and Mario's Uair are now. Never saw a point making Diddy's Uair frame 3 or frame 4 as a "fix".

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, what's the input? I knew you could standard B-reversal on the ground, but a full wavebounce? I dunno how to replicate this.

 

[Lavani]

But how?!

Yeah, what's the input? I knew you could standard B-reversal on the ground, but a full wavebounce? I dunno how to replicate this.

In the vine, it's B-sticked
( or ) >
I believe.

I can replicate it on 3DS without a C-stick by doing a soft press back so that I turn around but still get neutral B, then quickly pressing forward, but I think that would be really difficult to accurately do outside of training/in an actual match.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've never once been able to b-stick a neutral in smash 4 in 1.0x speed; diagonals don't work for me, no matter what.

 

[Space thing]

The instructions found in the vine are specifically to set C-stick to attack, press neutral B while in a running animation, and then to press the left stick in the direction you're facing + C-stick in the opposite direction at the same time. No B-sticking or diagonal inputs required. I'm sure B-stick probably works too though.

Honestly, not worth the effort IMO.

 

[Asdioh]

Diagonal C-stick (I use default controls so it's set to Smash) gives me Nairs and Jabs!
ALL. THE. TIME.
And it's the worst thing ever!
So I can see how it's possible to do with B-sticking, but I can't see it being easy to pull off consistently.

edit: oh. Still think it's dumb that accidentally diagonal Cstick gives me Nairs and stuff, wish I could turn that off somehow v_v

 

[Thinkaman]

B-stick doesn't work with diagonals in smash 4, trust me. It's not the same as A-stick.

 

[Ikes]

what are the tournament legal sizes for each mii?

 

[Unknownkid]

what are the tournament legal sizes for each mii?

Default unless you are talking about EVO Sets which is 25:00 (Height:Weight) for Gunner and Swordfighter and Brawlers get a Default Height/Weight Set and 00:00 Set as well.

Edit: Sorry. I forgot that Brawlers want Tiny Brawlers. Fixed for Accuracy

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I hear that it's specific to certain moves; some moves just give you multiple opportunities to turn yourself around. Marth and his clones have that for Neutral-B.

 

[Thinkaman]

OKAY, I figured it out.

Pressing a tilt-stick and hitting special on the same frame gets you a neutral special, regardless of normal stick position.

So you can be running forward, never let go of the control stick, and press away on the c-stick + special button on the same frame. Boom.

Works on ground and in air.

I hear that it's specific to certain moves; some moves just give you multiple opportunities to turn yourself around. Marth and his clones have that for Neutral-B.

Some specials you can reverse, some you can turnabout (which sometimes has an associated movement bonus), and some you can do both ("wavebouncing").

Wavebouncing side-specials is trivially easy with a b-stick.

Also, Lucas is the wavebouncing queen.

 

[Asdioh]

So in addition to pivoting (let's stop calling it "perfect" since it was just called pivoting in older games?) tilts, there's also grounded wavebouncing, so basically 2 good reasons to set your Cstick to Attack? >_< I've been trying to just stick with default controls though!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

OKAY, I figured it out.

Pressing a tilt-stick and hitting special on the same frame gets you a neutral special, regardless of normal stick position.

So you can be running forward, never let go of the control stick, and press away on the c-stick + special button on the same frame. Boom.

Works on ground and in air.

Sounds like Diddy and Sheik just got a legitimate wavedash backward; Needle Cancels only take seven frames, iirc.

 

[Zorai]

So Zero legitimately thinks Roy is top tier now. What are people's opinions on this?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

What options do grounded wavebounce give you? I'm having a hard time imagining it (and i'm on my cell so i can't see the vine)

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of Roy, how big is his sweet-spot compared to Marth's tippers?

 

[Smog Frog]

So Zero legitimately thinks Roy is top tier now. What are people's opinions on this?

its publicity. zero did this same exaggeration with , and is probably doing it with . zero also strikes me as not completely level headed, probably fueled by his ego once he realized he's basically unbeatable.

 

[Pyr]

So Zero legitimately thinks Roy is top tier now. What are people's opinions on this?

I don't care what he says if he doesn't have detailed analysis to back it up. He has so many knee-jerk reactions that he must of had his knee replaced by now. Did he provide any justification for his opinion? I'd be interested in seeing that if it exists.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What options do grounded wavebounce give you? I'm having a hard time imagining it (and i'm on my cell so i can't see the vine)

Depending on how well you carry momentum, it lets you slide backward varying distances with your Neutral-B directly out of a run.

Luigi could run forward and fireball forward while sliding backward. Things like that. Characters with cancelable Neutral-Bs, like charge moves, can cancel them and effectively get a Melee wavedash with less cooldown (actually not an exaggeration), but you have to be frame perfect with the Tilt Stick + B input.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just got back from a weekly. Went all Ryu and did BAD, but...everyone there said I had the strongest Ryu thus far. False was also there but after losing Round 1 as Ryu he went to Sheik. Booo False. So the things that gave me trouble were not projectiles. I just powershielded them. Sword characters were not that serious either. Bair took care of them or if I smelled that they would hit a button I would Hadouken. Hadouken is a poking tool and I used it as such. What gave me problems were when people RESPECTED me.

They stopped moving. They took it slow. They understood that I only needed a single jab to end them at 100%. However my losses I felt were never due to lack of options, but lack of ingenuity and understanding.

Ryu has the tools. And he has flaws. GOOD. You want him to have flaws. You want another Sheik? A char with stupid game design that has no truly exploitable weaknesses? Nah. Ryu is awesome from a game design point of view.

Also he can beat anyone in footsies. ANYONE. Yes, even Little Mac.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja and probably other characters with small crouches can duck under Ryu's Tatsu as long as he doesn't activate it right next to them as I just found out.

These kind of things are so pointless but still so fun to find out for some reason.

 

[NairWizard]

Just got back from a weekly. Went all Ryu and did BAD, but...everyone there said I had the strongest Ryu thus far. False was also there but after losing Round 1 as Ryu he went to Sheik. Booo False. So the things that gave me trouble were not projectiles. I just powershielded them. Sword characters were not that serious either. Bair took care of them or if I smelled that they would hit a button I would Hadouken. Hadouken is a poking tool and I used it as such. What gave me problems were when people RESPECTED me.

They stopped moving. They took it slow. They understood that I only needed a single jab to end them at 100%. However my losses I felt were never due to lack of options, but lack of ingenuity and understanding.

Ryu has the tools. And he has flaws. GOOD. You want him to have flaws. You want another Sheik? A char with stupid game design that has no truly exploitable weaknesses? Nah. Ryu is awesome from a game design point of view.

Also he can beat anyone in footsies. ANYONE. Yes, even Little Mac.

almost 100% agreed. Despite my pessimism with respect to Ryu, I don't think projectiles are a big deal at all for him, and disjoints even less so.

I think Ryu is good too, just too honest in neutral to be a Top Tier. The other top tiers like Sheik, ZSS, etc. can really take it slow and kill his chances of getting anything going in neutral.

If Ryu is to contend with them he has a long, long road ahead of him. Not in terms of developing his combo tree or mastering his intricate buttons or nonsense like that (anyone with a basic understanding of SF can do those things), but in terms of developing his neutral and figuring out matchups.

I have to say, though, EL, I think that Roy is better than Ryu at this point, and am disappointed that you didn't use him!

 

[Unknownkid]

Just got back from a weekly. Went all Ryu and did BAD, but...everyone there said I had the strongest Ryu thus far. False was also there but after losing Round 1 as Ryu he went to Sheik. Booo False. So the things that gave me trouble were not projectiles. I just powershielded them. Sword characters were not that serious either. Bair took care of them or if I smelled that they would hit a button I would Hadouken. Hadouken is a poking tool and I used it as such. What gave me problems were when people RESPECTED me.

They stopped moving. They took it slow. They understood that I only needed a single jab to end them at 100%. However my losses I felt were never due to lack of options, but lack of ingenuity and understanding.

Ryu has the tools. And he has flaws. GOOD. You want him to have flaws. You want another Sheik? A char with stupid game design that has no truly exploitable weaknesses? Nah. Ryu is awesome from a game design point of view.

Also he can beat anyone in footsies. ANYONE. Yes, even Little Mac.

So what is the gameplan next time? How are you going to overcome players Respecting Ryu?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pretty sure that's the problem; he loses to the same silliness that every other character does.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is no art to Roy. He is just a meathead with a club shaped like a sword. I will get around to using him but its just letting the reward do the work and no i dont think Roy is better. Roy is just easier to see results with.

Sorry if that hurts anyones feelings.

Actually Im not sorry. hah

 

[Ikes]

just a little speculation since I havent seen the move in play, but couldn't foot flurry be used as a means of shutting down most recovery moves? Since from what I understand, most(?) characters have a frame or two of vulnerability when/before snapping to a ledge. Couldnt foot flurry's stationary aerial positioning be used to hit opponents during these frames of vulnerability much easier than say, ganon's dair or moves like it? since it has a solid half second of activity.

also, couldnt it be used offstage for gimping better than most moves?

I understand feint jump is the standard but couldn't Foot Flurry also have a lot of utility? I'm not currently able to test these ideas but I will as soon as I can

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So I've hit the lab and noticed stuff about Lucas:
His double jump is pretty strange. At the top of it he just... stays there for a while. It's really noticeable when trying to grab the ledge. And this happens even when you fastfall. It's weird.
His D-tilt is also weird. On characters like Lucario it can true combo into itself and then into a jab combo because Lucario doesn't have anything fast enough to break it. But on most people his d-tilt seems punishable on hit and block.
Nair combos into itself. This is really fun to do. Double jump Nair-> up air is a true combo because of the momentum of the double jump. It can be done after a down throw if you get a grab for some reason. Seriously if Lucas had Ness's grab he'd break the game.

And finally, offstage side magnet is the new shine spike.

 

[Ffamran]

There is no art to Roy. He is just a meathead with a club shaped like a sword. I will get around to using him but its just letting the reward do the work and no i dont think Roy is better. Roy is just easier to see results with.

Sorry if that hurts anyones feelings.

Actually Im not sorry. hah

Well, he's definitely not his father who was much more methodical. Eliwood, fencer-type DLC character - as in narrow, but long hitboxes type of character -, please. Still, Roy's like a Captain Falcon with a sword. You go in and you go in hard; he's an all or nothing character.