Character Competitive Impressions

[DanGR]

I'm a big proponent of shielding a lot against characters without kill throws, but I think much of the hype for Jigglypuff comes from her her match-ups against the perceived top tiers right now. Take a look at both Rosalina and Sheik. What are they going to do against her? I understand that Rosalina outranges her, but Jigglypuff is incredibly safe/low-commitment, and can just float over Luma if she wants (kind of like Peach). Rosalina is tall and has a hard time guarding against all that shield pressure--she also lacks hitboxes diagonally above her. Angled f-smash is the best that she can get short of an aerial, and once she's in the air Jigglypuff can match her floaty fall speed but also has many more jumps. Jigglypuff is probably the best character for dealing with Rosalina in the air because she falls so slowly.

Sheik is going to . . . camp needles that will probably not even hit because Jigglypuff is so small? Sheik's f-air actually doesn't outrange most of Jigglypuff's aerials unlike her other attacks. Dash attack is too low to catch an aerial approach (Sheik angles her hands down). B-air and n-air are pretty good and bouncing fish is scary, I'll admit, but if Sheik wants to play the no-commitment game against Jiggs she's about 3 or 4 jumps short and 1 to 2 Jigglypuffs too tall (her crouch is good though; if only her d-tilt had more range).

Diddy is troublesome and I don't see how Jigglypuff deals with his u-air and f-air (especially that f-air), and I also think Ness' superior aerials and kill throw cause her massive problems. But having a good matchup against the perceived "top two" of the game is nothing to scoff at.

More theoretically: Jigglypuff's ground options shouldn't be taken lightly, either. Her jab is good, her tilts are decent, and her dash attack and DACUS are much better tools than they were in previous iterations of smash. Given her ability to jump out of these options so easily and abuse her aerial supremacy to get out of bad situations, I think she's being slept on (*cough* this is a rest pun *cough*)

I can't comment much on the sheik/diddy matchups, but all you have to do with rosalina is throw out hitboxes when you think jiggs will jump. It's really that easy. Up-angled fsmash, upsmash, uptilt, b-air, and star bits all deal with jiggs pretty easily by providing you with fast, low-cooldown disjoints that are difficult to get around because both airdodging and doing anything on the ground are poor options against her. Jiggs has to get past a wall of b-airs in the air, then pressure a shield without grabbing, and then punish an invisible roll once she's landed... all without getting hit once herself or else we're back to at best for jiggs a neutral position. I can't stress enough how many reads and unsafe followups the jiggs player has to perform in order to get in. It's just not happening very consistently. This is just my preliminary analysis before the wii-u version comes out, but I don't see the matchup changing much with c-stick aerials and finer spacing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Jesus christ that Peach infinite. Looks pretty situational and tough to do but wow, that's...incredibly silly.

Wouldn't surprise me if that somehow disappeared but I don't even know how you'd go about changing that.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Jesus christ that Peach infinite. Looks pretty situational and tough to do but wow, that's...incredibly silly.

Wouldn't surprise me if that somehow disappeared but I don't even know how you'd go about changing that.

Changing Peach's turnips so that it disappears on hit like Diddy's bananas do is one easy option.

 

[Kofu]

Gonna stop you there.

You know who has Brawl Ganon range? Ganon. Still.

WFT just does not have the same problem with grabs as Ganon does. Aside from Pac-man, nobody does.

Edit: Whups.

Yeah, I was talking about Wii Fit Trainer. Zelda's is good. I use Ganon in both games so I know his grab range is pretty bad. It seems slightly better in this game than Brawl, but that might be because a lot of grabs were nerfed in range.

 

[NairWizard]

Ah, the good ol' "just PS everything"

You can't react to her grab the same way you could in Brawl. It's somewhere in the 10 frames neighborhood now instead of 17. If ZSS does paralyzer from far away and you PS it she's already dashing up to you... her grab was barely withing the realm of human reaction time before, you sure as hell can't now. If you spot dodge her grab it's a read.

Quoting "just PS everything" is a strawman: I said that you can PS the paralyzer because she's so far away. Everything else you can regular shield. The standard way of getting in against projectiles is walk up PS. This isn't something difficult to execute or highly innovative: you can see projectiles coming and you can powershield them.

Reacting to the grab isn't the issue: the issue is the endlag of the move. Same issue that Pacman has, but less of one obviously. In terms of risk-reward, ZSS' grab option is high-risk, moderate-reward most of the time: in a kill scenario, it is high-risk, high-reward. It is not the kind of consistent option that you want to use in tournaments. It would be OK if ZSS were heavy like Yoshi, but she isn't--in addition, she's decently tall due to being a human character, so a lot of SH aerials can punish her grab too.

This is even worse in smash 4 because of the rage effect. If ZSS and her opponent are both at high percents and ZSS misses a grab and gets punished and dies for it, ZSS loses some of her kill power.

In this game I don't believe you should rely on risky kill moves. Throwing out a random Diddy f-smash in neutral is not the way to get a kill: that is a 50-50 option at best, and you can be punished incredibly hard for it. To kill, you need to set up your opponent to be in a disadvantaged situation where you can make a safer, 70-30 or better read. Going for a grab in a position where your opponent is likely to block is a safe option, and from there you get another safe option of trying to call the airdodge/aerial and hitting your opponent as he's falling down. ZSS can go for these grabs but it's much riskier: almost as risky as just going for that f-smash or d-smash read in neutral.


Re: Jiggs vs. Yoshi: I forgot about Yoshi. Another matchup where Jigglypuff might struggle. Eggs are a huge problem, though this is all theory and I haven't seen the matchup in practice. I think very positively of Jigglypuff at the moment, but Yoshi had escaped my consideration.

 

[Conda]

A big problem is that, when we start talking about a character, we always discuss their matchups with the perceived top 5-10. A huge amount of the cast is being ignored currently as we tunnel vision to yoshi, zss, rosa, diddy, sheik, greninja, and a few others. At best, its 10 characters.

We could start talking about DK, but the convo would be about how he matches up against those characters.

I understand its normal to do this and makes sense - theyre the most threatening characters currently and likely at the top end of the tier lists that will come to be. But we are ignoring a lot of other angles of discussion - we arent really trying to discover how other characters can reasonably become as equal a threat.

Basically, we're currrently discussing character competitive impressions with the feeling that a large portion of the cast is not a threat. We know most of the cast is reasonably balanced, yet really we feel they are lackluster as a result of being 'balanced'. If we discovered that a charcter had a bad matchup vs Tlink, we wouldnt care because we assume Tlink isn't someone to worry about.

We havent yet seen the metagame develop for the majority of the cast. With many character threads being deserts and nobody caring to dig deep, a lot of potential is still locked. Meta development is understandably very lopsided right now, but our discussion doesnt have to be.

 

[Terotrous]

Jesus christ that Peach infinite. Looks pretty situational and tough to do but wow, that's...incredibly silly.

Wouldn't surprise me if that somehow disappeared but I don't even know how you'd go about changing that.

The main thing that causes these infinites is that footstool puts you into a special grounded state where you're forced into a laggy wakeup that has vulnerability. They just need to fix it so you can use your normal grounded options and all of the infinites are gone.

 

[NairWizard]

I can't comment much on the sheik/diddy matchups, but all you have to do with rosalina is throw out hitboxes when you think jiggs will jump. It's really that easy. Up-angled fsmash, upsmash, uptilt, b-air, and star bits all deal with jiggs pretty easily by providing you with fast, low-cooldown disjoints that are difficult to get around because both airdodging and doing anything on the ground are poor options against her. Jiggs has to get past a wall of b-airs in the air, then pressure a shield without grabbing, and then punish an invisible roll once she's landed... all without getting hit once herself or else we're back to at best for jiggs a neutral position. I can't stress enough how many reads and unsafe followups the jiggs player has to perform in order to get in. It's just not happening very consistently. This is just my preliminary analysis before the wii-u version comes out, but I don't see the matchup changing much with c-stick aerials and finer spacing.

This is a fair point and I used this same point to argue that Rosalina wins the matchup vs. Peach earlier in the thread. But I have since reconsidered: I think that walling with Rosalina's aerials is a little easier said than done. They have awkward hitboxes/animations even though they have good range and disjoints, not quite as great at zoning as say Brawl Marth's. Most Rosalina players that I have seen don't use the walling tactic at all, but maybe in addition to changing Jiggs' game, the Wii U version will change the way that people will play Rosalina.

 

[DanGR]

The biggest reason you don't see rosalina players wall with aerials is because the more common, better characters are reeeeally fast on the ground and easily capable of punishing them. Jiggs isn't one of them. She sticks to the air.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Peach can also do this:

This harder to force than it looks, Diddy's in Brawl was a lot easier to make happen imo.

 

[Tomsta17]

I think Game and Watch is pretty good online, hes recieved a considerably good buff, and hes easy to control

 

[Terotrous]

So after playing a bit more Pac-Man I'm starting to think that he is only mid tier. His neutral game is quite strong, and he mauls anyone who has a poor recovery, but against characters with good recoveries (ie, most good characters) he has very limited kill options. None of his aerials have any kill power, he's basically limited to Smash Attacks, Side B, and Key, which are all kind of predictable, especially considering his grab is so terrible. I've found the best way to set up kills is to get the opponent off-stage, then toss the bell at the ledge as they recover. This takes away most ledge options and can get you run up UpSmash kills if you guess which one they'll do. Granted, setting up this situation is a battle in itself.

Melon and Apple can theoretically kill at very high damage (150%+), but if your opponent is living that long you'll have trouble winning.

I really wish he had a kill throw. Considering how horrible his grab is, he deserves one. That would help make his offense a bit more dangerous because then you'd at least sort of have to watch out for grab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A big problem is that, when we start talking about a character, we always discuss their matchups with the perceived top 5-10. A huge amount of the cast is being ignored currently as we tunnel vision to yoshi, zss, rosa, diddy, sheik, greninja, and a few others. At best, its 10 characters.

We could start talking about DK, but the convo would be about how he matches up against those characters.

I understand its normal to do this and makes sense - theyre the most threatening characters currently and likely at the top end of the tier lists that will come to be. But we are ignoring a lot of other angles of discussion - we arent really trying to discover how other characters can reasonably become as equal a threat.

Basically, we're currrently discussing character competitive impressions with the feeling that a large portion of the cast is not a threat. We know most of the cast is reasonably balanced, yet really we feel they are lackluster as a result of being 'balanced'. If we discovered that a charcter had a bad matchup vs Tlink, we wouldnt care because we assume Tlink isn't someone to worry about.

We havent yet seen the metagame develop for the majority of the cast. With many character threads being deserts and nobody caring to dig deep, a lot of potential is still locked. Meta development is understandably very lopsided right now, but our discussion doesnt have to be.

lolz. Speak for other crappy character forums.

Marth forums = first to have full frame data and first to have a thread dedicated to optimizing custom load-outs

Metagame unlocking is HOW WE DO!!!!!!

speaking of Marth....imma leave this here...cuz you know..controversy and ****.

This is from NAKAT...you know..currently top 2 in NJ

Mario is good and can handle Marth. Marth should bop Falcon when he is off stage.

Also those Side B's were because I wanted to kill you with it since that move is hype lmfao. I like to have a good time on stream so 80% of the time I am bs'ing around. That Mario game was legit especially since my greedy *** got gimped. I deserved it.

Mario is no where near bottom tier. He is definitely upper mid or bottom of high, but yea this isn't the right place for that.

Mario top tier son...DUH

*Returns to the war room in the Marth forums

 

[Shaya]

I haven't done full frame data on customs though :<, and then there's that whole "specials in the air has less lag than used on the ground thing" that's annoying.
(And we can't be the only one, right?)

And if my humble request to NAKAT to say hello didn't before, the facetious call out sure will

War room though? Okay, there's something "new" I need to mention, and seeing as you're already there~

 

[Jabejazz]

>Claim Mario is a below average character, frame data and damage shows a clear weakness.

>Okay

>NAKAT claims he's good

>Well **** guys, Mario's top tier.

C'mon. I'm willing to hear what makes Mario secretly better than what we think. Let's not jump the gun. You can be the best player in the world, when there's no meat I can chew at, I don't bite.

Your Ness is disgusting, NAKAT.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well Mario CAN do this to anyone Fox's weight or lower (Only from Top platform if they ain't Jiggs)

 

[popsofctown]

That will be useful for all the times my opponent runs up to the top platform of battlefield and starts shielding..

 

[SaltyKracka]

That will be useful for all the times my opponent runs up to the top platform of battlefield and starts shielding..

As one of the lightest characters in the game at 0%, remember!

 

[TTTTTsd]

I didn't say it was matchup defining lmao. For the record it works on Jiggs on the middle platforms (The fact that nobody noticed this means nobody watched the whole thing, go figure!), but it's just something funny I found that could help in incredibly situational situations, but I mean, hey!

It's also worked on Palutena and Falco (20% for Falco anyways, I'll check with more later.) I didn't think the remarks would be so...snide. I didn't tout it as the most useful thing ever, geez.

I just want to push forth the idea of looking for creative and/or stupid ways to kill with this character, and I think a 0% to death combo on the middle platform in a game like Smash 4, regardless of character weight, given this game's survivability, is a big deal, even if it is against the lightest. One poorly spaced aerial from Jiggs at fresh % and Mario grabs her on one of those center platforms (not even just the top LOL) and yeah, there you go. Find me another character who can do it this easy off a throw on the middle platforms and you'll have me. Keep in mind I am only referring to the Jiggs matchup.

TL;DR please watch the video as it works on the middle platforms in this specific MU as far as I've tested, always watch the whole thing before you comment. Oh yeah and don't act like I think this is a huge deal, it's just funny and potentially useful.

 

[A2ZOMG]

>Claim Mario is a below average character, frame data and damage shows a clear weakness.

>Okay

>NAKAT claims he's good

>Well **** guys, Mario's top tier.

C'mon. I'm willing to hear what makes Mario secretly better than what we think. Let's not jump the gun. You can be the best player in the world, when there's no meat I can chew at, I don't bite.
Your Ness is disgusting, NAKAT.

Mario has competitively winnable matchups against Rosalina, Yoshi, and Fox by design off the top of my head. He doesn't win any of these outright because his reward is mostly crap, but by design none of these characters are good at walling him out.

Well Rosalina CAN actually try to wall him out, just Mario gets past Luma easily and Rosalina's damage per hit surprisingly enough is often worse than Mario's when she doesn't have Luma, which in a way makes trading not nearly as awful for Mario. Mario however gets owned by standard juggle traps and edgeguards by Rosalina though, so he still has to play carefully.

Mario loses convincingly to characters like Sheik, Diddy, and ESPECIALLY Marth imo. Marth hard counters Mario in this game by virtue of superior midrange, hard to combo, and extremely deadly juggle traps and edgeguards. Marth just...blatantly overwhelms Mario with his way superior reward in favorable situations.

 

[Terotrous]

I think it's kind of interesting that two of the characters that A2ZOMG thinks are terrible, Mario and ROB, were top 2 at Shockwave last week, defeating Sheik, Rosalina, Little Mac, etc.

(I realize this is old but I just got fully caught up on it).

Honestly I still think ROB is very solid. I'm not seeing him having much trouble landing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I still think ROB is very solid. I'm not seeing him having much trouble landing.

Then it just means certain people haven't learned to take advantage of it, when ROB really didn't get anything to address his landing issues.

When I look at ROB, I see a character who is mostly only decent when he actually hits you with lasers (which have very clearly favorable reward on hit). Which are more telegraphed in this game than in Brawl. Without lasers, ROB is not a good character. But lasers in the first place are not reliable.

ROB has passable but not especially great pokes in neutral. He's also very large, floaty, and not good at juggling or edgeguarding low recoveries, and his best KO moves don't have very easy setups, and the changes to ledges hurt both his edge trapping and recovery significantly.

 

[Terotrous]

When I look at ROB, I see a character who is mostly only decent when he actually hits you with lasers (which have very clearly favorable reward on hit). Which are more telegraphed in this game than in Brawl. Without lasers, ROB is not a good character. But lasers in the first place are not reliable.

Neutral air is certainly also very favourable to land, it has guaranteed followups at some percents and gives good positioning at others. It also autocancels so it's a pretty safe move to use. I would also say that his jab and tilts are some of the best in the game, they're very fast and have good range and damage.

And of course, there's also Gyro, which is a useful tool for stage control and pressure. Laser is a good move, but it's far from the only good move ROB has.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Neutral air is certainly also very favourable to land, it has guaranteed followups at some percents and gives good positioning at others. It also autocancels so it's a pretty safe move to use. I would also say that his jab and tilts are some of the best in the game, they're very fast and have good range and damage.

And of course, there's also Gyro, which is a useful tool for stage control and pressure. Laser is a good move, but it's far from the only good move ROB has.

Laser is virtually the only reason you should be playing ROB, because it's THE tool he has that actually lets him control the game. Without it, you would be playing a character who has mostly terrible reward on hit, significant commitment on most moves, and poor options for escaping traps.

And the problem is ultimately, ROB's neutral game is not scary outside of his decent grab. Gyro requires specific positioning to set up to be really effective and ROB is hindered when people catch it. His laser at best functions as a punish and followup.

 

[Terotrous]

Laser is virtually the only reason you should be playing ROB, because it's THE tool he has that actually lets him control the game. Without it, you would be playing a character who has mostly terrible reward on hit, significant commitment on most moves, and poor options for escaping traps.

And the problem is ultimately, ROB's neutral game is not scary outside of his decent grab.

I still can't understand why you're undervaluing nair so much. Autocancel move with a great hitbox that leads to combos? Which character wouldn't be happy to have that?

Laser is good, but if you watch Oracle play it's not the cornerstone of his offense. ROB can still definitely use his good pokes and grab to go in on characters. What makes him good is the fact that he can either hang back with Gyro and Laser or go in as the situation calls for it. He's a good example of what I'd consider a "complete character" in that sense.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I still can't understand why you're undervaluing nair so much. Autocancel move with a great hitbox that leads to combos? Which character wouldn't be happy to have that?

Laser is good, but if you watch Oracle play it's not the cornerstone of his offense. ROB can still definitely use his good pokes and grab to go in on characters. What makes him good is the fact that he can either hang back with Gyro and Laser or go in as the situation calls for it.

N-air is like...20 frames startup.

It's a decent punish tool at best. Awful for neutral, very conditional for getting out of traps. N-air does not make ROB a good character.

ROB doesn't wall people with Gyro and laser. He's a character that has to mostly play conventional footsies, which he's only really average at best at doing. And without hitting lasers, he doesn't actually control the game that well.

 

[Terotrous]

N-air is like...20 frames startup.

It might be 20 frames (I suspect it's probably more like 15), but what matters more is the 0 frames cooldown on hit. Also, it's an aerial, so you can drift in and out during the startup. The startup really doesn't significantly impact the viability of the move.

It's a decent punish tool at best. Awful for neutral, very conditional for getting out of traps. N-air does not make ROB a good character.

Awful for neutral is just jokes. Would you say Charizard Nair is also awful for neutral? Because it's basically the same move (except with lesser reward on hit and slower) and it's basically the entirety of Charizard's neutral play. And before you say "well, Charizard is an awful character and that's all he's got", it's equally true in PM where he's a much better character.

I can't help but notice that you don't actually own Smash 4 yet, so I'm wondering just what you're basing your analysis of this character on. There's nothing wrong with going based on high-level match videos (high-level players are better than most of us, after all), but what's been shown in videos just doesn't match your analysis of the character at all.

I would really suggest watching these three videos for a good overview of the character:

Oracle vs Denti (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiFlpFNay0A

Oracle vs Bwett (Little Mac)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5_aUF82R6c

Oracle vs Jumpman (Mario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9UZ-bzSJAY


You are, of course, welcome to post videos of good ROBs getting bodied at neutral by other characters, but even in matches where Oracle has lost you can always see the the character has good stuff. I really just can't see this character being less than Upper Mid with his well-balanced toolset.

 

[Tagxy]

I would say ROB is pretty solid at applying pressure in the right conditions. He's sort of like a moving fortress that you dont want to allow to set up his zone, but at the same time can smack you for trying to jump in on him. His moves are fairly committed so its not the hardest thing to get inside against him.

Also hes definitely terrible off kilter in situation such as landing, perhaps a bit worse than average, but having a hard time landing is prolly how things should be for most of the cast.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It might be 20 frames (I suspect it's probably more like 15), but what matters more is the 0 frames cooldown on hit. Also, it's an aerial, so you can drift in and out during the startup. The startup really doesn't significantly impact the viability of the move.



Awful for neutral is just jokes. Would you say Charizard Nair is also awful for neutral? Because it's basically the same move (except with lesser reward on hit and slower) and it's basically the entirety of Charizard's neutral play. And before you say "well, Charizard is an awful character and that's all he's got", it's equally true in PM where he's a much better character.

I can't help but notice that you don't actually own Smash 4 yet, so I'm wondering just what you're basing your analysis of this character on. There's nothing wrong with going based on high-level match videos (high-level players are better than most of us, after all), but what's been shown in videos just doesn't match your analysis of the character at all.

I would really suggest watching these three videos for a good overview of the character:

Oracle vs Denti (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiFlpFNay0A

Oracle vs Bwett (Little Mac)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5_aUF82R6c

Oracle vs Jumpman (Mario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9UZ-bzSJAY


You are, of course, welcome to post videos of good ROBs getting bodied at neutral by other characters, but even in matches where Oracle has lost you can always see the the character has good stuff. I really just can't see this character being less than Upper Mid with his well-balanced toolset.

Charizard's N-air isn't 20 frames startup. Big difference.

I've watched videos mostly with Chibo's ROB if you want clarification (he uses some customs). He has more games where he wins, if anything. So I'm not ignorant that ROB is doing well in some tournaments.

I watched the first video of Denti just almost literally walking into hits that were coming from a mile away, and I honestly feel like as good as Oracle is, this isn't changing that not only are ROB's weaknesses very obvious, there is a lack of matchup experience in taking advantage of them.

Also the grand finals match between ROB and Mario was HILARIOUSLY bad. That's a grand finals match? Seriously? What. The. Hell. That match is like For Glory shenanigans. I don't want to count the number of times both players just made terrible choices and even got away with them.

 

[Terotrous]

Charizard's N-air isn't 20 frames startup. Big difference.

While Charizard has somewhat lesser startup (it's still not zero), ROB's spin is much quicker once it occurs. I'd want to see frame data on the two moves, as I'm pretty sure the time it takes for the hitbox to get to the front is about the same. ROB's Nair also autocancels much earlier than Charizard's Nair.

I watched the first video of Denti just almost literally walking into hits that were coming from a mile away, and I honestly feel like as good as Oracle is, this isn't changing that not only are ROB's weaknesses very obvious, there is a lack of matchup experience in taking advantage of them.

Matchup inexperience is definitely an issue with the game being so new (particularly for characters like ROB who aren't common), but at the same time matchup experience won't decide games if a character's gameplan is full of obvious holes. No one has the Kirby experience either, and yet Kirbykid hasn't seen the same results yet.

 

[A2ZOMG]

While Charizard has somewhat lesser startup (it's still not zero), ROB's spin is much quicker once it occurs. I'd want to see frame data on the two moves, as I'm pretty sure the time it takes for the hitbox to get to the front is about the same. ROB's Nair also autocancels much earlier than Charizard's Nair.



Matchup inexperience is definitely an issue with the game being so new (particularly for characters like ROB who aren't common), but at the same time matchup experience won't decide games if a character's gameplan is full of obvious holes. No one has the Kirby experience either, and yet Kirbykid hasn't seen the same results yet.

Let me restate something.

ROB is only a good character if you get hit by lasers.

People with matchup inexperience get hit by lasers. Thus, ROB appears good.

Lasers realistically are VERY easily powershielded, and ROB is not even close to favorable on block when he lasers.

 

[Judo777]

Laser is virtually the only reason you should be playing ROB, because it's THE tool he has that actually lets him control the game. Without it, you would be playing a character who has mostly terrible reward on hit, significant commitment on most moves, and poor options for escaping traps.

And the problem is ultimately, ROB's neutral game is not scary outside of his decent grab. Gyro requires specific positioning to set up to be really effective and ROB is hindered when people catch it. His laser at best functions as a punish and followup.

I'm not sure at all about in the new game, but in Brawl Robs gyro was WAY better than his laser. Gyro is how he controlled space. Granted from mid range neutral the setup were limited to a few, but from long range (or especially from non-neutral positions) gyro was probably robs best move in my most likely biased opinion.

 

[popsofctown]

I didn't say it was matchup defining lmao. For the record it works on Jiggs on the middle platforms (The fact that nobody noticed this means nobody watched the whole thing, go figure!), but it's just something funny I found that could help in incredibly situational situations, but I mean, hey!

It's also worked on Palutena and Falco (20% for Falco anyways, I'll check with more later.) I didn't think the remarks would be so...snide. I didn't tout it as the most useful thing ever, geez.

I just want to push forth the idea of looking for creative and/or stupid ways to kill with this character, and I think a 0% to death combo on the middle platform in a game like Smash 4, regardless of character weight, given this game's survivability, is a big deal, even if it is against the lightest. One poorly spaced aerial from Jiggs at fresh % and Mario grabs her on one of those center platforms (not even just the top LOL) and yeah, there you go. Find me another character who can do it this easy off a throw on the middle platforms and you'll have me. Keep in mind I am only referring to the Jiggs matchup.

TL;DR please watch the video as it works on the middle platforms in this specific MU as far as I've tested, always watch the whole thing before you comment. Oh yeah and don't act like I think this is a huge deal, it's just funny and potentially useful.

I did recognize that. I just didn't care because Jiggs is an even smaller proportion of the cast and even less likely to land on a plat and get grabbed.
This is the character competitive impressions thread, so combos that are at this level of narrowness and specificity are not relevant, so I'm going to be snide. It's amusing and relevant enough for a thread all about Mario or all about Jigglypuff, but not for a thread all about the whole roster.

I think maybe you underrate how hard it is to get a grab from a battlefield plat.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not sure at all about in the new game, but in Brawl Robs gyro was WAY better than his laser. Gyro is how he controlled space. Granted from mid range neutral the setup were limited to a few, but from long range (or especially from non-neutral positions) gyro was probably robs best move in my most likely biased opinion.

ROB can't glide toss in this game, and lasers in this game are MUCH more rewarding than Gyro outside of very positionally specific setups. ROB's laser defines his control game in Smash 4. Laser is what lets you maintain an advantage at several distances.

It would be a broken move if it actually was good in neutral.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I was opting to second rob partially because of his ground game but I revisited pit who has an ftilt which I am renaming "The Truth".

There are far more interesting ground games than normals. Robs grabs, laser and gyro stand out. You can talk about aerials but his Nair isn't his good aerial. Its his uair.

Problem with Rob is he lacks The Truth outside of roll punish which he has two moves which catch them and spot dodges rather well. That being said his Nair is kind of like Shulk. Its certainly usable but it's not fast so it not quite retaliatory at all unlike a sex kick

 

[Terotrous]

Also the grand finals match between ROB and Mario was HILARIOUSLY bad. That's a grand finals match? Seriously? What. The. Hell. That match is like For Glory shenanigans. I don't want to count the number of times both players just made terrible choices and even got away with them.

I was really just posting that for set 1. Set 2 was just Bowser Jr shenanigans so it's not really relevant to the discussion. I think Jumpman actually played set 1 really well. Even then, neutral air was still a major factor, and ROB puts out a lot of pokes as well. It's definitely not all just laser.

 

[Judo777]

ROB can't glide toss in this game, and lasers in this game are MUCH more rewarding than Gyro outside of very positionally specific setups. ROB's laser defines his control game in Smash 4. Laser is what lets you maintain an advantage at several distances.

It would be a broken move if it actually was good in neutral.

I see. As I said I am unsure. I will say however that in Brawl (and probably this game too I would bet especially with the lack of glide tossing) the gyro was actually a stronger tool not as a tossed item but actually spinning on the stage (like when shot). Again some slight bias but I was a pretty competent rob player in brawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was really just posting that for set 1. Set 2 was just Bowser Jr shenanigans so it's not really relevant to the discussion. I think Jumpman actually played set 1 really well. Even then, neutral air was still a major factor, and ROB puts out a lot of pokes as well. It's definitely not all just laser.

Yeah and honestly...Denti does not impress me. I never got the impression he put a lot of thought into his gameplan or ever really considered what options his opponent has. So if anything, the first match was Denti making bad choices and getting hit by stuff he had no reason to get hit by.

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah and honestly...Denti does not impress me. I never got the impression he put a lot of thought into his gameplan or ever really considered what options his opponent has. So if anything, the first match was Denti making bad choices and getting hit by stuff he had no reason to get hit by.

Denti won game 1 pretty solidly, and had some nice punishes. I mean, it's true that as a Sheik player you almost don't have to care who your opponent is, but I think he's generally got pretty good reads.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Denti won game 1 pretty solidly, and had some nice punishes. I mean, it's true that as a Sheik player you almost don't have to care who your opponent is, but I think he's generally got pretty good reads.

Denti looks like he's playing on a flowchart honestly. "If character is in X position I will do this move." And while flow chart play is not inherently bad, it was very evident that Denti's playstyle was linear and clearly not very safe. I don't think he's even trying to make reads. He's just throwing out stuff that he believes normally wins, but he clearly doesn't demonstrate good knowledge of the game in this set. And he got punished several times for just being outright reckless.