Character Competitive Impressions

[popsofctown]

Alright, I need someone to tell me about because people having been complaining about for the past day, ever since Zero mentioned the japanese using her so much. Also update on that; along with rain, nietono also quit Greninja for sheik also citing his inability to win unless he changes (granted both of these players did the same thing in Brawl too).

Do the Japanese use custom specials? Sheik's custom special utilization is pretty weak.

 

[Conda]

Let's not continue talking about other fighting games. not all of us can parttake.

Anywho --

Fox is agreed upon to be good, but I think its because he's basically well balanced yet can be used by good players well. Sheik is more powerful moveset wise and has more 'unfair' options, while Fox is decidedly fair in design. Falco is a beast too, but very slow on the ground. But they share the same 'fair and balanced' design philosophies.

I also think Toon Link is a character that has some of the most development potential. He's a character like Fox in that you've got many good tools, yet you have to stay versatile and depend on your ability to adapt to what's happening. He can do things and tricks no other character can - fire arrows, fast bomb kamikaze, etc. We havent begun adjusting to his possible playstyles and he is essentially fully untapped.

You arent overpowered in any area and can't rely on any specific strong move to give you the upper hand and change the pace of battle.

These characters feel like youre always in neutral because you're never really fully commiting, but focusing on evading and punishing etc. I see Fox not as a combo master, but as a chain chaser, making him similar to Tlink and such to me. You've basically got a fast character with solid moveset that you can sandbox with. My favourite kind of character to play.

Samus is similar, yet not fast, just heavy and with a more power-focused projectile game.

This character type has basically no cheese to take advantage of, and are instead fully skill based and dependant in the player. Theres likely little reason to main one over someone like Sonic or Rosa or Sheik, who have some scales that be tipped.

We're understandably not talking about this character type often because they're less shocking and powerful in the current meta, but being well rounded is a solid trait. With a C stick, characters with nothing to use as cheese will do much better and pose more of a conventional threat. Things will change.

 

[Tagxy]

So let me talk about range, disjoints, and metaknight. This also partially ties into why pikachu is often a misunderstood character and a bit difficult to use.

First thing to note is that range and disjoints are not the same thing. Range being an attribute that describes the overall length of reach, and disjoint describing the reach beyond a hurtbox. However typically we think of characters that have good disjoints as also having decent range, and this is typically true.

Now for some examples, Im gonna simplify things to just "good" and "bad" for the sake of explanation even though in reality theres a more complex spectrum (Im also ignoring other attributes not relevant here). Marth is an example of a character with good range and good disjoints. Wario is an example of a character with poor range and poor disjoints. DK is an example of a character with good range but poor disjoints. Im sure many are with me at this point, but whats often forgotten is that its possible for a character to have poor range but good disjoints.

Good range and good disjoint
Good range and poor disjoint
Poor range and poor disjoint
Poor range and good disjoint

One questions worth considering is how does a character with poor range take advantage of disjoints? It's certainly the least intutive of the four, but in a MU like Pika vs DK one way the MU works if DK is being particularly defensive with their range is with pikachu weaving in and out of of their attack range to coax them into tossing out a move, then punishing them with disjointed moves that outright beat their attacks. Pikachus small size and movement are very well suited towards this.

Metaknight might've taken a huge hit with his range, but compared to the rest of the cast he still has some solid disjoints he'll be able to take advantage of.

 

[MisterVisceral]

Fox is agreed upon to be good, but I think its because he's basically well balanced yet can be used by good players well. Sheik is more powerful moveset wise and has more 'unfair' options, while Fox is decidedly fair in design. Falco is a beast too, but very slow on the ground. But they share the same 'fair and balanced' design philosophies.

So are you suggesting that Fox is actually "fair and balanced"?

 

[PKNintendo]

@ Amazing Ampharos
Ultimately what I look for is food for thought (which I think a lot of the time we get here, this is probably the best thread on Smashboards right now). Perhaps going over Rosalina for the upteenth time is getting a bit old, I agree. But what about focusing energies elsewhere? What about collaborating all these opinions on each character / match up inferences into single places (think Brawl Character Discussions by the BBR... and that came to me just through typing, and that would actually be perhaps a really good idea if done right; GAH), paraphrased or "selected" for conciseness.

As I mentioned earlier in different words, we should be slicing up the elephant/divide and conquering the big primordial ooze we all like to throw our DNA into. I don't think asking the widespread community to "deal with it at all at once" will be that positive, but I could very well be wrong.

Agreed

Let's be honest here, what we ultimately want to see is informed opinion from experienced/intelligent users on the various smash characters. I couldn't care less what Sonicbuster756 thinks about X character, but posts from A2ZOMG, Amazing Ampharos, SFP, etc on character X would be absolutely intriguing. Even if their opinions clash or differ, there could merit to controlled discussions on specific characters.

I really want to see more of this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox is agreed upon to be good, but I think its because he's basically well balanced yet can be used by good players well. Sheik is more powerful moveset wise and has more 'unfair' options, while Fox is decidedly fair in design

Sheik doesn't have guaranteed KO setups like Fox does and his damage output is stupid. He lacks a distinctive weakness, unlike Sheik. The character honestly isn't "fair and balanced" - Falco doesn't really compare to him at all imo.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Agreed

Let's be honest here, what we ultimately want to see is informed opinion from experienced/intelligent users on the various smash characters. I couldn't care less what Sonicbuster756 thinks about X character, but posts from A2ZOMG, Amazing Ampharos, SFP, etc on character X would be absolutely intriguing. Even if their opinions clash or differ, there could merit to controlled discussions on specific characters.

I really want to see more of this.

Yes, I agree with this. Educated (well, EXTRA educated) opinions that clash against each other in a productive way push everybody forward, so I would love comparisons and exciting debate.

 

[Terotrous]

Yes, I agree with this. Educated (well, EXTRA educated) opinions that clash against each other in a productive way push everybody forward, so I would love comparisons and exciting debate.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there's no debate to be had over, say, Greninja. There's like a 100% consensus that Greninja is high tier or better. Similarly, there's also no debate over Olimar, everyone thinks he sucks.

I'm pretty sure the purpose of the exercise wasn't to determine who was the best, but to determine which characters are the most contentious. I can probably already guess who they are (Bowser, Zelda, Little Mac, etc), but there might be some characters that you don't suspect in there.

 

[MisterVisceral]

These guys. I think they haven't been getting enough love recently. I've seen people move them to mid-tier, even low mid-tier. I'd say they're high-mid tier at the lowest.

Pros:
Heavy while in kart, hard to knock around
Fairly fast approaches with kart
Nice projectile and melee options
Nice stops in Dtilt, dash attack and B
Tool-chests on tool-chests
Couple of reliable combos (SideB into Uair/Dair) (UpB explosion into Fair hammer)
Kart defense
Dtilt as a taunt

Cons:
Out-of-Kart vulnerability
Slowish attacks, broadcast kart startup

What are Koopa Jay's other weaknesses? I know they're there, just like everyone else's, but why does he keep getting moved down?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think the point he was trying to make is that there's no debate to be had over, say, Greninja. There's like a 100% consensus that Greninja is high tier or better. Similarly, there's also no debate over Olimar, everyone thinks he sucks.

I'm pretty sure the purpose of the exercise wasn't to determine who was the best, but to determine which characters are the most contentious. I can probably already guess who they are (Bowser, Zelda, Little Mac, etc), but there might be some characters that you don't suspect in there.

Greninja is absolutely high tier. I am not really convinced at this point (any longer anyway) that he is top tier, by the way.

I think he is a lot like Mr. Game and Watch from Brawl. He seemed to be super super top tier at first too, but eventually it was found that despite his high damage, great normals, and good kill moves (among other good traits of course) his gameplan pattern eventually became very... transparent. He's above you, he's going to dair. It's a good dair, but you know he's going to do it, because if he doesn't, he's trappable, and because of his light weight, easily killed off the top. His best defense is dair in this scenario... and so he's going to use it. And so on, and so forth. We discovered that his setups and gimmicks are unreliable and that he is easily walled out by better characters. He is certainly not a bad character, but having only a few answers to a number of situations made him seem more limited over time.

Greninja displays many of the same traits. I think he will fall off a bit as people get better at the game... but, there is no doubt that what is strong about him will continue to be strong and players will continue to see success with Greninja.

I am currently looking at different characters that display more consistent strength that is less susceptible to marginalization through player experience. For example, I think Peach is very, very good, maybe even top tier. She has improved dramatically and the things that traditionally give peach difficulty are less prominent in this game.

 

[mimgrim]

I do think the Koopalings are on the underrated side and that people are playing them pretty badly. Koopa Kart is pretty bad, to slow to be as useful as Spin Dash and lacks the options of Super Speed (in which Super Speed is still way faster). People keep trying to use the Mecha Koopas as a stage control tool by letting them walk around the stage instead of using them more like Diddy's Nanners or Link's/Tlink's bombs. I also believe most of their attacks are disjointed which has it uses and they have a good set of tilts and aerials.

 

[Terotrous]

He's above you, he's going to dair.

I actually think Hydro Pump Downwards might be an interesting option. Since it's fast and he can angle it it's hard to guess exactly where he's going to go.

Something like side, then down, is also possible.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I actually think Hydro Pump Downwards might be an interesting option. Since it's fast and he can angle it it's hard to guess exactly where he's going to go.

Something like side, then down, is also possible.

I was talking about Game and Watch from Brawl here... sorry if my wording was confusing.

 

[Terotrous]

I was talking about Game and Watch from Brawl here... sorry if my wording was confusing.

I guess they really are pretty similar then, because that also describes almost every Greninja I've played.

In any case, Greninja seems to be a pretty complete character. Good mobility, pokes, KO moves, recovery, etc. He's basically just got all the tools he needs to do well, which is why there's very little debate about him. We've been playing Smash for a while now and we know what general traits make a good character.

The real debate is over characters who don't fit the model of what makes a good character (ie, Bowser, since previously big body always equals bad). I think this rule is no longer true this time since projectile camping is so much weaker, but that's something that will have to play out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sheik doesn't have guaranteed KO setups like Fox does and his damage output is stupid. He lacks a distinctive weakness, unlike Sheik. The character honestly isn't "fair and balanced" - Falco doesn't really compare to him at all imo.

I wouldn't say he is without a weakness.

I do think he is strong though in this game despite the few nerfs he got in areas.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Similarly, there's also no debate over Olimar, everyone thinks he sucks

No he doesnt lol, Oli is k. He's not amazing, but hes not bad either.

For example, I think Peach is very, very good, maybe even top tier. She has improved dramatically and the things that traditionally give peach difficulty are less prominent in this game.

*cough* Swords *cough*

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I've been playing less and less Jr. cause his main playstyle (hyper-aggressive) is getting easier and easier to punish as players learn to play against him. Kart was overrated early on, I agree, but as a recovery or punish option it really rocks. I do also think that the Mechakoopas are easy to misuse, but ledgehopping into down-b then recovering with sweetspotted up-b is a pretty decent way to force enemies away from the ledge, or at least into the air where you can deal with them with that amazingly quick uair.

Up-B is also a really, really good killmove. Leaving the Kart on the ground and having enemies launched into your aerial hammer is really satisfying, highly damaging and very dangerous. His fastfall speed is also pretty decent to allow this to work as a sometimes reliable killer.

No he doesnt lol, Oli is k. He's not amazing, but hes not bad either.

I wouldn't say that having no killmoves pre-120% except the extremely lucky purple 'min offstage gimps makes him 'not bad', as well as having a VERY easily interceptable up-special.

 

[Tagxy]

Fox is still exploitable on recovery. Watching pikacopter gimp fox is the most hilarious thing. Dont know much else about him though.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm sorry, but anyone saying Olimar is k haven't played Olimar that much in this game or played him much in Brawl. Even ignoring all the nerfs he got from Brawl, the Pikmin AI in the game are even worse then they were in Brawl. There are way too many times that Olimar is just randomly desynched from his Pikmin to where he can't use them and the Whistle doesn't always bring them back.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Her grab is also really short, Brawl Ganon range if not worse

Gonna stop you there.

You know who has Brawl Ganon range? Ganon. Still.

WFT just does not have the same problem with grabs as Ganon does. Aside from Pac-man, nobody does.

Edit: Whups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gonna stop you there.

You know who has Brawl Ganon range? Ganon. Still.

Zelda just does not have the same problem with grabs as Ganon does. Nobody does, except probably Pac-man.

He was talking Wii Fit Trainer. I think everyone knows that Zelda's grab range is in fact good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Some food for thought with Ike (mainly at the people who keep putting him in bottom 5) http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/584573996?t=4h45m38s

And he wasn't even using the custom options

EDIT: outside of a counter custom apparently according to the announcers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Some food for thought with Ike (mainly at the people who keep putting him in bottom 5) http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/584573996?t=4h45m38s

And he wasn't even using the custom options.

As I've said before...Ike's movepool isn't terrible in this game. Yeah he lost some of his extreme strengths, so Ike can't just expect Jab to do the heavy lifting for him, but in exchange he has quicker spacing options in more ranges (tilts are all pretty good) and airdodge changes make Ike's juggle traps reliable. The universal nerfs to throw reward also actually leave Ike with one of the more rewarding grab games in Smash 4 as well, as Ike does now have better low percent throw combos, and at higher percents he has one of the best pummels in the game.

In general though I believe the main thing that hurts Ike is his lack of safe aggressive edgeguard options, which can be addressed with customs. On default settings I'd put him in the lower half of characters, as he's still vulnerable to both camping and juggling and can't really do much to people offstage.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Some food for thought with Ike (mainly at the people who keep putting him in bottom 5) http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/584573996?t=4h45m38s

And he wasn't even using the custom options

EDIT: outside of a counter custom apparently according to the announcers.

Timestamps don't work on twitch VODs.

Also, tier lists kind of don't really apply when one player keeps screwing up obvious things. That said, Ike's nair and potential ability to outrange her aerials seems to define his matchup against Rosa.

On seeing more, that whole set was defined by stages. Where the Ike definitely had things to work with on stages with platforms, he got destroyed on FD. Consequently, him winning the first match gave him the whole set.

...of course, that Rosa being absolutely terrible on Prism Tower was definitely a factor.

Skipping through quickly, he then proceeded to lose two matches against a Diddy even though said Diddy SD'd on his first stock in the first game.

I dunno man, overall I don't think this video proves the point you think.

 

[san.]

I dunno, Ike only needs one fair offstage to really end someone above 80.

 

[NairWizard]

There is a lot of talk about her lack of kill options in this thread, but I don't really see it. I think she's about as good in that department as Sheik, if not markedly stronger. Her Paralyzer at a distance combos to up-b, nair can combo to down-b (both the meteor and kill variants), back air kills at 110-130, up air can still kill off the top and combo from ground moves to do so. Not only does she have a lot of kill moves, she has a ton of ways to set them up at low risk to herself. I don't see this as a concern anymore at all.

The grab is the problem. Her kill options are fine, but that slow grab animation means that you can expect most of her kill options and shield them.

For paralyzer you can just walk forward powershield. For b-air you can shield or crouch under it for most characters, and some are just too short in the first place to hit with SH b-air. If you up-b and whiff you are eating a tough punish (and she's not heavy so she doesn't want to eat many punishes). What is she going to hit you with? Just don't spotdodge so you don't get hit by a rogue f-smash.

Think of Falco from Brawl here: he couldn't get a kill very easily even with DACUS and a decent f-smash and laser -> stuff because his grabs didn't set up for kills. He has options but you can't use them because they get shielded.

Sheik can f-throw bouncing fish you, or d-throw up-air. ZSS *could* do this by d-throw to up-air-frame-trap, but her grab is too punishable. Her hitboxes are way too small for consistent edgeguards, and side-b doesn't kill any more, so that's out too.

Basically, yes, she does have kill options. But none of them are safe. Sheik, Ness, Pikachu, Rosalina (thanks to Luma: otherwise she'd have trouble too), Sonic, Lucario, Diddy Kong, even Peach and Jigglypuff -- these characters have *safe* kill options. ZSS does not. It's going to be an uphill battle trying to kill, I think, against a player who knows what ZSS is capable of.

 

[DanGR]

I don't buy the Jiggs hype. It's hard to make up for being the lightest (and lightest by a good chunk), having the worst run speed, and no disjoints with little range. Yeah she can poke with aerials, but is that enough? Just like in Brawl, she can't threaten a grab very easily at all, so shielding still ruins most of what could have been a really solid kit. Rolling also got buffed. And it's even stronger as a defensive option against shield pressure against characters with horrible run speed- Jiggs has the worst. Any kind of trading is a bad trade for such a light character, so good luck consistently predicting and following rolls strictly in the air. The supposed high/top tiers mostly don't lack in projectiles, disjoints, range, or speed either. At best she has some decent matchups against the high/top tiers, but falls to inconsistency. I'm skeptical about the puffball.

 

[PKNintendo]

I think the point he was trying to make is that there's no debate to be had over, say, Greninja. There's like a 100% consensus that Greninja is high tier or better. Similarly, there's also no debate over Olimar, everyone thinks he sucks.

I'm pretty sure the purpose of the exercise wasn't to determine who was the best, but to determine which characters are the most contentious. I can probably already guess who they are (Bowser, Zelda, Little Mac, etc), but there might be some characters that you don't suspect in there.

Something like that. We just got a solid assessment on Greninja's viability in Smash. And furthermore, SFP just dropped a mega ton by stating that Peach might be top 5. What? Really? How? Go on...? There's also the Jigglypuff hype. I want a follow up on it.

I wanna hear about things like that. I don't want to hear about why SmashMaster86 thinks that "X" character might be top tier due to his limited experience on For Glory.

 

[Conda]

Kill throws add a lot of value to a character too. Even toon link, a character that really doesnt have trouble racking up damage or killing (like all aerials kill) has a kill throw in bthrow.

Look at Ness and what that kill option offers him in terms of viability. A lot of characters have kill throws that we for some reason aren't valuing similarly.

Ness's bthrow also has an intense vertical diagonal trajectory, so if the throw doesnt kill then your opponent can always recover. The kill throws with more horizontal trajectories are more valuable below kill % as they can still set up or gimp situations. Ness's isnt even the best anymore, as it has been nerfed to be more inline with the other kill throws.


Tlink's tether is super fast for a tether, and having a kill option you can always execute oos is amazing considering the rest of Tlink's kit.

 

[Terotrous]

And furthermore, SFP just dropped a mega ton by stating that Peach might be top 5. What? Really? How? Go on...? There's also the Jigglypuff hype. I want a follow up on it.

I don't think it's possible to distinguish between about 3-10 right now. If you're not Sheik / Rosalina, at best you're one of a number of characters who seem to be really good.

I think that the most interesting discussion is probably on the characters that we think are kind of middle-ish, because people haven't really looked at them too much.

 

[Buddy002]

These guys. I think they haven't been getting enough love recently. I've seen people move them to mid-tier, even low mid-tier. I'd say they're high-mid tier at the lowest.

Pros:
Heavy while in kart, hard to knock around
Fairly fast approaches with kart
Nice projectile and melee options
Nice stops in Dtilt, dash attack and B
Tool-chests on tool-chests
Couple of reliable combos (SideB into Uair/Dair) (UpB explosion into Fair hammer)
Kart defense
Dtilt as a taunt

Cons:
Out-of-Kart vulnerability
Slowish attacks, broadcast kart startup

What are Koopa Jay's other weaknesses? I know they're there, just like everyone else's, but why does he keep getting moved down?

I agree... I dropped Bowser Jr. because of a slightly hard learning curve, but have grown to like him. His mechakoopas are strong, you can drop one out, and if they connect they can set up combos. I find laying one down, then rushing down on the opponent really is a good option, as the opponent not only has one attack (Bowser Jr.) coming at him, but another in the mechakoopa. His dair is pretty reliable, has a large hitbox... and hits many times

 

[NairWizard]

I don't buy the Jiggs hype. It's hard to make up for being the lightest (and lightest by a good chunk), having the worst run speed, and no disjoints with little range. Yeah she can poke with aerials, but is that enough? Just like in Brawl, she can't threaten a grab very easily at all, so shielding still ruins most of what could have been a really solid kit. Rolling also got buffed. And it's even stronger as a defensive option against shield pressure against characters with horrible run speed- Jiggs has the worst. Any kind of trading is a bad trade for such a light character, so good luck consistently predicting and following rolls strictly in the air. The supposed high/top tiers mostly don't lack in projectiles, disjoints, range, or speed either. At best she has some decent matchups against the high/top tiers, but falls to inconsistency. I'm skeptical about the puffball.

I'm a big proponent of shielding a lot against characters without kill throws, but I think much of the hype for Jigglypuff comes from her her match-ups against the perceived top tiers right now. Take a look at both Rosalina and Sheik. What are they going to do against her? I understand that Rosalina outranges her, but Jigglypuff is incredibly safe/low-commitment, and can just float over Luma if she wants (kind of like Peach). Rosalina is tall and has a hard time guarding against all that shield pressure--she also lacks hitboxes diagonally above her. Angled f-smash is the best that she can get short of an aerial, and once she's in the air Jigglypuff can match her floaty fall speed but also has many more jumps. Jigglypuff is probably the best character for dealing with Rosalina in the air because she falls so slowly.

Sheik is going to . . . camp needles that will probably not even hit because Jigglypuff is so small? Sheik's f-air actually doesn't outrange most of Jigglypuff's aerials unlike her other attacks. Dash attack is too low to catch an aerial approach (Sheik angles her hands down). B-air and n-air are pretty good and bouncing fish is scary, I'll admit, but if Sheik wants to play the no-commitment game against Jiggs she's about 3 or 4 jumps short and 1 to 2 Jigglypuffs too tall (her crouch is good though; if only her d-tilt had more range).

Diddy is troublesome and I don't see how Jigglypuff deals with his u-air and f-air (especially that f-air), and I also think Ness' superior aerials and kill throw cause her massive problems. But having a good matchup against the perceived "top two" of the game is nothing to scoff at.

More theoretically: Jigglypuff's ground options shouldn't be taken lightly, either. Her jab is good, her tilts are decent, and her dash attack and DACUS are much better tools than they were in previous iterations of smash. Given her ability to jump out of these options so easily and abuse her aerial supremacy to get out of bad situations, I think she's being slept on (*cough* this is a rest pun *cough*)

 

[Terotrous]

I'm a big proponent of shielding a lot against characters without kill throws, but I think much of the hype for Jigglypuff comes from her her match-ups against the perceived top tiers right now.

Jiggs vs Yoshi seems absolutely atrocious for Jiggs though. Eggs are quite good at controlling the air, Yoshi is generally very safe, he can armor through wall of pain, and his vertical kill moves kill her ridiculously early.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The grab is the problem. Her kill options are fine, but that slow grab animation means that you can expect most of her kill options and shield them.

For paralyzer you can just walk forward powershield. For b-air you can shield or crouch under it for most characters, and some are just too short in the first place to hit with SH b-air. If you up-b and whiff you are eating a tough punish (and she's not heavy so she doesn't want to eat many punishes). What is she going to hit you with? Just don't spotdodge so you don't get hit by a rogue f-smash.

Think of Falco from Brawl here: he couldn't get a kill very easily even with DACUS and a decent f-smash and laser -> stuff because his grabs didn't set up for kills. He has options but you can't use them because they get shielded.

Sheik can f-throw bouncing fish you, or d-throw up-air. ZSS *could* do this by d-throw to up-air-frame-trap, but her grab is too punishable. Her hitboxes are way too small for consistent edgeguards, and side-b doesn't kill any more, so that's out too.

Basically, yes, she does have kill options. But none of them are safe. Sheik, Ness, Pikachu, Rosalina (thanks to Luma: otherwise she'd have trouble too), Sonic, Lucario, Diddy Kong, even Peach and Jigglypuff -- these characters have *safe* kill options. ZSS does not. It's going to be an uphill battle trying to kill, I think, against a player who knows what ZSS is capable of.

Ah, the good ol' "just PS everything"

You can't react to her grab the same way you could in Brawl. It's somewhere in the 10 frames neighborhood now instead of 17. If ZSS does paralyzer from far away and you PS it she's already dashing up to you... her grab was barely withing the realm of human reaction time before, you sure as hell can't now. If you spot dodge her grab it's a read.

Something like that. We just got a solid assessment on Greninja's viability in Smash. And furthermore, SFP just dropped a mega ton by stating that Peach might be top 5. What? Really? How? Go on...? There's also the Jigglypuff hype. I want a follow up on it.

I wanna hear about things like that. I don't want to hear about why SmashMaster86 thinks that "X" character might be top tier due to his limited experience on For Glory.

I think I said top tier, not top 5.... and I said maybe.

But anyway, Peach has great, great stuff. Everything you know and love about Peach still exists. The safe shield pressure, the early combos (although they have been toned down a lot), the turnips, the easy roll and spot dodge punishes... no, seriously. Peach can just throw out dair if she suspects a spot dodge or roll and unless she gets hard read she is going to be safe even if you shielded it. This is an even bigger deal in Smash 4 and at this point feels really valuable.

What she has now is a counter that deals 18% damage, early kills that are no longer unreasonably hard to set up, (including an upsmash that isn't sour spot on the side, so you can kill with it OOS in a lot of cases), ridiculous turnip gimmicks, a better up air that is just nasty through platforms, etc.

She isn't without her problems, for example I think she will probably suffer a lot when trying to take a lead back from a big deficit, but she can at least continue to pressure without worrying about trading... that alone makes that burden significantly less severe.

The reason I brought up Peach was because I think a lot of the current top tier "contenders" are a little gimmicky and Peach is a much more fundamental character who is solid in almost every aspect and has few weaknesses that can be exploited in the long-term against eventual solid play.

 

[-RedX-]

Peach can also do this:

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Amazing Ampharos

Nah, I really can't condone a full tier list voting.

Not an unexpected outcome. I think it would work out okay and be interesting (I may overtrust the maturity of our community?), but it's okay.

---

I think Peach is a huge threat in this game on paper, but she needs GC controller way more than most since she's just super technical in this game (float tricks, canceling landing lag with turnip throw, etc. is not terribly easy even on a good controller!). Likewise, I think Jigglypuff has the potential to be really, really scary, but you absolutely must be able to consistently angle Pound exactly where you want it and further must be able to consistently double jump while air controlling only turning around when you want to which is so overwhelmingly hard on circle pad that her off-stage game just feels impossible to use right now (the other multi-jumpers can be more relaxed about stopping air control for a moment due to their physics so they're a lot less hurt by circle pad than her). So those two I could see being huge on Wii U and I am quite sure both are generally high tier, but I dunno if it's really possible to see them do anything good on 3ds...

 

[Terotrous]

Peach can also do this

I want to see that done on someone other than Robin, as Robin is already known to be susceptible to that ZSS Infinite that only works on him.

 

[Mr. Johan]

What are the odds of that ZSS infinite working in the Wii U version though? Since the infinite works thanks to a bug exploit, it's unlikely to work on the version that's gone through much more debugging.

Same goes for Eggstant Transmission, and Ledge-Cancel Turnips.

That 0-Death however works fine because everything is working as intended. Doesn't make it any less intimidating though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I want to see that done on someone other than Robin, as Robin is already known to be susceptible to that ZSS Infinite that only works on him.

It has been tested and known to work on more characters than Robin. It hasn't been tested on the whole cast though AFAIK.

 

[Conda]

If youre gonna post a video, say what its about.