Character Competitive Impressions

[BSP]

So after playing a bit more Pac-Man I'm starting to think that he is only mid tier. His neutral game is quite strong, and he mauls anyone who has a poor recovery, but against characters with good recoveries (ie, most good characters) he has very limited kill options. None of his aerials have any kill power, he's basically limited to Smash Attacks, Side B, and Key, which are all kind of predictable, especially considering his grab is so terrible. I've found the best way to set up kills is to get the opponent off-stage, then toss the bell at the ledge as they recover. This takes away most ledge options and can get you run up UpSmash kills if you guess which one they'll do. Granted, setting up this situation is a battle in itself.

.

Put trampolines on the ledge too. Covers everything except ledge jump, which leads to the same thing. If they wait, drop a hydrant on their head.

Also, don't neglect Melon setups. At high damage, your opponent has to do something in response, and you can KO them for said response.

Melon and Apple can theoretically kill at very high damage (150%+), but if your opponent is living that long you'll have trouble winning.

I don't think 150% is very high in this game. Barring gimps or getting read hard, I can usually live to that and more as Mario, whose recovery is pretty bad.

I really wish he had a kill throw. Considering how horrible his grab is, he deserves one. That would help make his offense a bit more dangerous because then you'd at least sort of have to watch out for grab.

Bthrow isn't that bad for KO'ing, and Uthrow is decent too. Pac-Man also has a damage throw (Dthrow) that isn't his KO throw, so He doesn't have to stale his KO throw to put more damage on.

@ TTTTTsd didn't watch your video with sound, so sorry if you already covered it: what about vectoring down? Do you know if the AI was doing that?

Mario is mid tier at best, but should be lower honestly. He's got fast attacks and some unreliable combos, and that's about it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

*snip*

Only reason I posted it is cuz the more I test it on other chars at varying %s, the more it works. It's incredibly weird, situational, character specific at best (although it seems to work on floaties too besides Jiggs so there's that), but it's SOMETHING even if it's so minor and not game-changing. Was just trying to, well, contribute.

.
@ TTTTTsd didn't watch your video with sound, so sorry if you already covered it: what about vectoring down? Do you know if the AI was doing that?

This I can not definitively answer, I think the AI attempts to vector away from certain things but I set it to level 1 so it probably didn't vector at all. I speculate vectoring down can't save you only because this carries you to the edge/middle of the blastzone, at least from the top platform. Mid against Jiggs may be sketchier but it works on paper. I'd like people to test it more honestly. Also I think VI is dependent both on KB and % taken so it may be impossible to VI and survive but IDK.

Double post, delete please

 

[Terotrous]

Put trampolines on the ledge too. Covers everything except ledge jump, which leads to the same thing. If they wait, drop a hydrant on their head.

I've tried this, but it doesn't seem like it leads to a ton. Assuming they land on the trampoline, what's the setup afterwards? Just get more time to charge fruit? If I have the opponent offstage, my general preference is to toss fruit at them rather than set up the trampoline.

Also, don't neglect Melon setups. At high damage, your opponent has to do something in response, and you can KO them for said response.

The thing is it seems like for most characters, the answer is just avoid the melon. If Pac-Man throws the melon at ground level, at worst you take an aerial. If he throws it a bit above ground level (this is my preference), you're most at risk of dash attack shenanigans, which also doesn't kill.

Speaking of which, Pac-Man's dash attack seems unusually safe. It looks like it recovers almost instantly after the final hitbox, allowing him to do FTilt / DownSmash / whatever afterwards. It won't combo, but it's a mixup of sorts. Is there some reliable escape to this? I was trying to abuse it as much as possible to see if people would come up with an answer to it, but I virtually never got punished.

I don't think 150% is very high in this game. Barring gimps or getting read hard, I can usually live to that and more as Mario, whose recovery is pretty bad.

Maybe, but even then it's not totally trivial to land those fruits. I find Apple is a bit easier to land than Melon since it beats back rolls.

Bthrow isn't that bad for KO'ing, and Uthrow is decent too. Pac-Man also has a damage throw (Dthrow) that isn't his KO throw, so He doesn't have to stale his KO throw to put more damage on.

Yeah I basically always use Dthrow at midstage, or Bthrow to toss off the edge for gimping. None of his throws will kill at any reasonable percent though.

 

[Conda]

I was opting to second rob partially because of his ground game but I revisited pit who has an ftilt which I am renaming "The Truth".

There are far more interesting ground games than normals. Robs grabs, laser and gyro stand out. You can talk about aerials but his Nair isn't his good aerial. Its his uair.

Problem with Rob is he lacks The Truth outside of roll punish which he has two moves which catch them and spot dodges rather well. That being said his Nair is kind of like Shulk. Its certainly usable but it's not fast so it not quite retaliatory at all unlike a sex kick

Can you explain your thoughts on Pit's ftilt? We can't read your mind and figure out what The Truth is supposed to mean.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Denti looks like he's playing on a flowchart honestly. "If character is in X position I will do this move." And while flow chart play is not inherently bad, it was very evident that Denti's playstyle was linear and clearly not very safe. I don't think he's even trying to make reads. He's just throwing out stuff that he believes normally wins, but he clearly doesn't demonstrate good knowledge of the game in this set. And he got punished several times for just being outright reckless.

Which enforces the point that nobody is even remotely close to mastering this game yet. People are too quick to judge characters as if all of the top players are playing their respective mains/matchups optimally, when this clearly isn't the case.

Trela vs Denti is a great example of this (http://youtu.be/ipXpPPwrFMg?t=12m2s). Trela played amazing but lets be real here; Denti clearly had no idea what he was doing against Zard. I've already seen people jumping to conclusions by somehow suggesting that the MU is even or even favorable for Zard based off of that ONE set. No... just no.

Sorry for going off on a tangent there but I'm just getting irritated with people jumping to conclusions based on early meta/sub-optimal play.

 

[NairWizard]

Every character in this game has good ground options like dash, jab, roll, maybe a tilt or two (Palutena doesn't have good tilts but it's fine -- we have Super Speed/Lightweight). Being in the air was even further weakened in this game, so having strong aerials isn't quite as important as it used to be. That means that everyone in this game can compete and win a match.

ROB, Mario, etc., if they are bad, are only relatively bad. Either of these characters and others can still win a national, imo, if the players playing them are skilled enough. Both characters have fast options, and all the theory in the world isn't going to prevent them from landing those options with the proper spacing and decision-making.

There are three characters that I can't see winning a national: Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard. These characters are just so slow in executing most of their options. Slowness over time becomes a bigger and bigger weakness because people get faster and faster and able to react to things more quickly as a metagame develops and common options are more well known. I think that these three are the worst in the game because of the lack of consistency. I would much rather go up against the world's best Charizard than go up against the world's best Mario.

 

[BSP]

I've tried this, but it doesn't seem like it leads to a ton. Assuming they land on the trampoline, what's the setup afterwards? Just get more time to charge fruit? If I have the opponent offstage, my general preference is to toss fruit at them rather than set up the trampoline.

Free Bair/Nair/uair and reset the situation, plus the time to charge fruit.

The thing is it seems like for most characters, the answer is just avoid the melon. If Pac-Man throws the melon at ground level, at worst you take an aerial. If he throws it a bit above ground level (this is my preference), you're most at risk of dash attack shenanigans, which also doesn't kill.

I was thinking more offstage melon setups, where it's more of a present threat. If you're getting DA, you can probably also Side B them too.

Yeah I basically always use Dthrow at midstage, or Bthrow to toss off the edge for gimping. None of his throws will kill at any reasonable percent though.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I play Mario, so I don't know what reasonable KO percents are.

What's considered reasonable KO percent in this game for the most part?

 

[Conda]

I've tried this, but it doesn't seem like it leads to a ton. Assuming they land on the trampoline, what's the setup afterwards? Just get more time to charge fruit? If I have the opponent offstage, my general preference is to toss fruit at them rather than set up the trampoline.



The thing is it seems like for most characters, the answer is just avoid the melon. If Pac-Man throws the melon at ground level, at worst you take an aerial. If he throws it a bit above ground level (this is my preference), you're most at risk of dash attack shenanigans, which also doesn't kill.

Speaking of which, Pac-Man's dash attack seems unusually safe. It looks like it recovers almost instantly after the final hitbox, allowing him to do FTilt / DownSmash / whatever afterwards. It won't combo, but it's a mixup of sorts. Is there some reliable escape to this? I was trying to abuse it as much as possible to see if people would come up with an answer to it, but I virtually never got punished.



Maybe, but even then it's not totally trivial to land those fruits. I find Apple is a bit easier to land than Melon since it beats back rolls.



Yeah I basically always use Dthrow at midstage, or Bthrow to toss off the edge for gimping. None of his throws will kill at any reasonable percent though.

I currently dont think it can be punished. The reason why is because it seems like the design behind the move is that it is very easy to shieldgrab if you dont get hit - you can grab after any of pac's chomps as there is enough time. So because of this weakness, it has no endlag.

It could also be to enable endless an seamless pac-man chomping. For old time's sake.

 

[Terotrous]

Free Bair/Nair/uair and reset the situation, plus the time to charge fruit.

Sure, you can reset the situation, but I'd much rather have the chance at a kill, since most of Pac-Man's kills come from getting you off the stage and hitting you with something.

That being said, taking away the opponent's ledge options is definitely interesting. There might be some tricky lazy fruit setups you could do with this?

I was thinking more offstage melon setups, where it's more of a present threat. If you're getting DA, you can probably also Side B them too.

Oh yeah, Melon offstage is one of the main ways to maul people with bad recoveries. As for DA vs SideB, DA has that element of surprise to it, because when I'm running up to you, I'm not yet committed to a move. I could go for grab (even though Pac's grab is bad) or even just shield incase you stick out a move, and since the melon is there you can't jump out of the situation. The thing with Side B is once that pellet comes out, you know which move I'm doing and can just block.

Honestly, while people talk up Side B a lot, I can't find many ways to hit with it. A useful move for recovery, definitely, but not that solid as a kill move unless there's some setups I'm not seeing.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I play Mario, so I don't know what reasonable KO percents are.

What's considered reasonable KO percent in this game for the most part?

I would say 110-140%.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Maybe I'm alone here, but I play Mario, so I don't know what reasonable KO percents are.

What's considered reasonable KO percent in this game for the most part?

IMO

With aerials you want to be able to kill things at 130-140% even if they're not completely fresh.

With Smashes, depending on character, the ideal "decent" KO range when fresh can go anywhere from 80-120

With throws, KOing at 140 near the edge seems close to "average". About 150 vertically is not awful.

It's not that Mario lacks decent KO moves. Just unlike most characters he very specifically lacks good aerial KO moves, and his U-smash and D-smash are not exceptionally powerful and lack setups to compensate for having bad aerials for KOing. Which is especially a problem when your damage output is as terrible as Mario's.

In Brawl, I never complained about scoring KOs as Mario, because at least I knew that I didn't usually have to work too hard for the first 60% or so, and I knew that I had reliable ways of setting up KOs either through Jab cancel into D-smash/B-throw or U-smash oos as long as I played very patiently.

In Smash 4 though...Mario works hard just to deal like 20% to people. His KO options aren't stronger, and he doesn't have Jab cancels to force grounded setups like he did before.

 

[Terotrous]

It's not that Mario lacks decent KO moves. Just unlike most characters he very specifically lacks good aerial KO moves, and his U-smash and D-smash are not exceptionally powerful and lack setups to compensate for having bad aerials for KOing. Which is especially a problem when your damage output is as terrible as Mario's.

I would consider USmash's kill potential above average. Good hitbox too, wins a lot of exchanges.

 

[Conda]

Free Bair/Nair/uair and reset the situation, plus the time to charge fruit.



I was thinking more offstage melon setups, where it's more of a present threat. If you're getting DA, you can probably also Side B them too.



Maybe I'm alone here, but I play Mario, so I don't know what reasonable KO percents are.

What's considered reasonable KO percent in this game for the most part?

I consider 120-ish to be a good strength point for KO moves. If a move kills at 150, its not rrreeaaallyyy a killmove. If you can only kill at 150, for example, while someone else can KO at 100, then over the course of the match you are going to have to deal 100 more damage to win. Thats a whole stock to someone who can KO at 100.

If something kill at lower than 100 then its an exception and darn impressive and character defining.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would consider USmash's kill potential above average. Good hitbox too, wins a lot of exchanges.

It doesn't kill most characters until 120%. Which as I stated is a problem with Mario's terrible damage output. Brawl Mario at least actually racked damage pretty fast, but in this game, Mario almost seems forced to use U-smash for damage...given it's also one of his only moves that actually does good damage.

 

[NairWizard]

120 is the default strength point for KO moves. If a move kills at 150, its not rrreeaaallyyy a killmove. If you can only kill at 150, for example, while someone else can KO at 100, then over the course of the match you are going to have to deal 100 more damage to win. Thats a whole stock to someone who can KO at 100.

It also depends on your weight and damage options vs. your opponent's weight and damage options.

Killing at 150 is only worse than killing at 100 if it's easier to get that 100 than it is to get that 150. Some characters do much more damage than others, and some characters have better camping games than others.

If you're Sheik, having to do 160 to a character is much less of a daunting task than if you're Marth and you have to do 120. Luckily, Marth doesn't have to do 120, but you get the idea.

 

[Terotrous]

It also depends on your weight and damage options vs. your opponent's weight and damage options.

Killing at 150 is only worse than killing at 100 if it's easier to get that 100 than it is to get that 150.

Not quite. Don't forget the rage mechanic. The longer your opponent is living at high percents, the easier it is for them to kill you.

It doesn't kill most characters until 120%. Which as I stated is a problem with Mario's terrible damage output. Brawl Mario at least actually racked damage pretty fast, but in this game, Mario almost seems forced to use U-smash for damage...given it's also one of his only moves that actually does good damage.

I would classify 120% as pretty good for a vertical KO move. There's not much that kills off the top earlier without charge.

Keeping the move fresh is a bit of an issue though. I actually don't think Mario's damage output is that horrible (sure, his combos don't hit too hard, but he's not bad at landing stray hits), but UpSmash is definitely a good move that you would like to use fairly often.

 

[NairWizard]

Not quite. Don't forget the rage mechanic. The longer your opponent is living at high percents, the easier it is for them to kill you.

Rage affects/mitigates the difference but doesn't eliminate it (well, it might in certain matchups), though that's a good point to mention

Rage gives characters who are fairly heavy a bigger advantage over those who are fairly light, as well. Yoshi benefits quite a bit from Rage due to being heavy.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Can you explain your thoughts on Pit's ftilt? We can't read your mind and figure out what The Truth is supposed to mean.

Well, I'm just going out on a limb here but... Pit's ftilit is pretty great. It's range is obnoxious, deals a respectable 10% as a tipper (7% sour), and between that and the autocancel nerfs is generally why I stick to the ground more as Pit then I ever did in Brawl. Spacing Ftilits out of walk is legit. It kills at 163%ish from the center too when fresh, but I use it as my main spacing tool so it's usually stale.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Characters I think are better than ROB, and reasons why:


These characters are almost indisputably top characters. ROB realistically is not a top contender.


Greninja is Sheik with worse tilts and DA but arguably better projectiles and better Smashes. And then some funny things with Up-B which also give him a great recovery for deep edgeguards. That gameplan overall makes him a better character than ROB.


Marth does everything well aside from forcing people to not play conventional footsies like other top tiers. Hard to trap, good in neutral, and KILLS. ROB not only can't trap people as well as Marth, he doesn't even have anything that compares in terms of raw damage and knockback.


Still the same character with ridiculous mobility, great damage, pressure, and punishes. Though Jigglypuff now outclasses him.


Basically nobody except guys like Sheik, Yoshi, and Marth can dare to disrespect Mac in neutral.


Captain Falcon's tilts are about as good as ROB's except he has better mobility and actually is very good at juggling. He also even has better edgeguards than ROB with weak knee.


Duck Hunt's camping game actually leads to legitimate traps in neutral as well as negative state. He also has better Smashes than ROB and is a much smaller target making him CONSIDERABLY less vulnerable to fullhop spacing and traps.


Both these characters have better projectiles than ROB, and better tilts and Smashes. With multiple jumps they also get out of traps more easily and edgeguard better than ROB.


Falco has the best reflector in the game which also serves as one of the best pokes in the game period. His normals are all better than ROB's in terms of speed and damage while not losing in range, and he has a better recovery than ROB.


Peach is Peach and a ***** to trap and space against. She also massively outdamages ROB and is impossible for most characters to edgeguard reasonably. Plus Turnips.


Even though he's bad on the ground, he rarely needs to fight on the ground anyway when there's far fewer counters to his F-air spacing in this game. And nobody can dare to disrespect his B-throw or PK Thunder (watch Fsann play Ness).


Toon Link is still the same annoying bugger and camps better than ROB especially with buffed Bombs. Also a small target that runs fast.


This character not only gets out of almost all traps for free, she has strong and REWARDING footsies, deals with projectile zoning easily, and she KILLS you easily. ROB can't do any of that, except just be passable at footsies.


This character is kinda like ROB in that their pokes are decent but not exceptional, and they have projectiles that aren't super great in neutral but good for capitalizing. The difference is Bowser Jr, while he has a tether grab, he actually has LEGITIMATE item related shenanigans, WAY better combos, and WAY better edgeguarding.


And not counting the Miis, that's already half the cast in this game who I think are almost guaranteed to be upper tier characters. What about characters who AREN'T upper tier?




Link has Jab confirms into KO moves and can survive longer than ROB due to his faster falling speed while actually having a very strong recovery in this game. Plus Bombs and Z-air > Gyro.


Arcfire is STUPID. So is Thoron. Robin also actually edgeguards REALLY well while ROB is terrible at edgeguarding.


Yeah he got nerfed hard. His throw combos/traps are still REALLY GOOD (D-throw -> Tornado is seriously good. Tornado does mad legit damage). He's a MONSTER at edgeguarding, still has some gimmick juggle gimps off the top, and he can't be trapped easily due to his amazing Down-B.


His weaknesses are extreme, but really not too unlike ROB's. But his strengths are clearly better than ROB's. He's better in neutral than ROB and does way more damage.


She's a nerfed Marth, but still has the advantage of being hard to trap and dangerous when juggling and edgeguarding. And her normals are still better than ROB's in neutral.


Like Bowser, with a better D-tilt and Down-B for frame traps and the spammable B-air instead of Firebreath, command grab, and Up-B out of shield.


Has a good reflector, arguably the best grab reward in the game, and can't be trapped easily.


Can you see why I believe this character is not valuable competitively?

 

[Nabbitnator]

Every character in this game has good ground options like dash, jab, roll, maybe a tilt or two (Palutena doesn't have good tilts but it's fine -- we have Super Speed/Lightweight). Being in the air was even further weakened in this game, so having strong aerials isn't quite as important as it used to be. That means that everyone in this game can compete and win a match.

ROB, Mario, etc., if they are bad, are only relatively bad. Either of these characters and others can still win a national, imo, if the players playing them are skilled enough. Both characters have fast options, and all the theory in the world isn't going to prevent them from landing those options with the proper spacing and decision-making.

There are three characters that I can't see winning a national: Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard. These characters are just so slow in executing most of their options. Slowness over time becomes a bigger and bigger weakness because people get faster and faster and able to react to things more quickly as a metagame develops and common options are more well known. I think that these three are the worst in the game because of the lack of consistency. I would much rather go up against the world's best Charizard than go up against the world's best Mario.

Paletuna's tilts are a bit odd. Up tilt covers dive kicks, side tilt can get rid of projectiles and down tilt is pretty fast for a quick hit. She has at least 2 good tilts with decent options. As for the other three i think that they rely on set ups and fundamentals to do their work. I think as time goes on they will have some tech to migitate the slowness a little. I'm mostly talking about charizard in that regard.

On a side note what does everyone think about wii fit trainer? I feel like she is really good except for her range but she can trade some of that for what she can do during crouch.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Paletuna's tilts are a bit odd. Up tilt covers dive kicks, side tilt can get rid of projectiles and down tilt is pretty fast for a quick hit. She has at least 2 good tilts with decent options. As for the other three i think that they rely on set ups and fundamentals to do their work. I think as time goes on they will have some tech to migitate the slowness a little. I'm mostly talking about charizard in that regard.

I have to agree with SolidSense. Palutena's tilts are pretty awful. While they have solid dijoints, they are slow, but more damaging then that, the HUGE amount of commitment the have is disgusting. Your opponent has ALL DAY to do whatever they want to you if you whiff or they dodge/get out. I can't wait to have a c stick so I'll no longer accidentally do a tilt when I meant a smash with her...

 

[Nabbitnator]

I would rather do a tilt then a smash because her smashes have so much recovery for no reason.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There are three characters that I can't see winning a national: Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard. These characters are just so slow in executing most of their options. Slowness over time becomes a bigger and bigger weakness because people get faster and faster and able to react to things more quickly as a metagame develops and common options are more well known. I think that these three are the worst in the game because of the lack of consistency. I would much rather go up against the world's best Charizard than go up against the world's best Mario.

Ganondorf took 2nd in a 108 man Japanese tournament not long ago. I believe he has a chance of winning a national. You can argue lack of consistency is bad competitively, and that's exactly why Mario shouldn't win a national. His reward is heavily inconsistent.

The thing is, Ganondorf actually has good moves. Yeah, he has a problem in that almost all his moves aren't safe. But Ganondorf has an amazing D-tilt, Dash Attack, F-air, and U-air. Yes he's not GOOD in neutral, but thing is, basically everyone except possibly Sheik has to respect him. And Ganondorf is one of the few characters in the game who can basically kill you in two reads once you're not in neutral when moves like his D-air and F-air and U-air offstage just have LUDICROUS stock ending potential.

Also Charizard is clearly better than bottom tier. Good run speed, GREAT ground normals, aerials are not awful, Flare Blitz is GREAT for several things including getting past zoning and getting out of traps. Mario and Doc aren't as good as Charizard at dealing with zoning, don't have the same options to escape traps, and don't even have Charizard's reward.

 

[NairWizard]

Characters I think are better than ROB, and reasons why:


These characters are almost indisputably top characters. ROB realistically is not a top contender.


Greninja is Sheik with worse tilts and DA but arguably better projectiles and better Smashes. And then some funny things with Up-B which also give him a great recovery for deep edgeguards. That gameplan overall makes him a better character than ROB.


Marth does everything well aside from forcing people to not play conventional footsies like other top tiers. Hard to trap, good in neutral, and KILLS. ROB not only can't trap people as well as Marth, he doesn't even have anything that compares in terms of raw damage and knockback.


Still the same character with ridiculous mobility, great damage, pressure, and punishes. Though Jigglypuff now outclasses him.


Basically nobody except guys like Sheik, Yoshi, and Marth can dare to disrespect Mac in neutral.


Captain Falcon's tilts are about as good as ROB's except he has better mobility and actually is very good at juggling. He also even has better edgeguards than ROB with weak knee.


Duck Hunt's camping game actually leads to legitimate traps in neutral as well as negative state. He also has better Smashes than ROB and is a much smaller target making him CONSIDERABLY less vulnerable to fullhop spacing and traps.


Both these characters have better projectiles than ROB, and better tilts and Smashes. With multiple jumps they also get out of traps more easily and edgeguard better than ROB.


Falco has the best reflector in the game which also serves as one of the best pokes in the game period. His normals are all better than ROB's in terms of speed and damage while not losing in range, and he has a better recovery than ROB.


Peach is Peach and a ***** to trap and space against. She also massively outdamages ROB and is impossible for most characters to edgeguard reasonably. Plus Turnips.


Even though he's bad on the ground, he rarely needs to fight on the ground anyway when there's far fewer counters to his F-air spacing in this game. And nobody can dare to disrespect his B-throw or PK Thunder (watch Fsann play Ness).


Toon Link is still the same annoying bugger and camps better than ROB especially with buffed Bombs. Also a small target that runs fast.


This character not only gets out of almost all traps for free, she has strong and REWARDING footsies, deals with projectile zoning easily, and she KILLS you easily. ROB can't do any of that, except just be passable at footsies.


This character is kinda like ROB in that their pokes are decent but not exceptional, and they have projectiles that aren't super great in neutral but good for capitalizing. The difference is Bowser Jr, while he has a tether grab, he actually has LEGITIMATE item related shenanigans, WAY better combos, and WAY better edgeguarding.


And not counting the Miis, that's already half the cast in this game who I think are almost guaranteed to be upper tier characters. What about characters who AREN'T upper tier?




Link has Jab confirms into KO moves and can survive longer than ROB due to his faster falling speed while actually having a very strong recovery in this game. Plus Bombs and Z-air > Gyro.


Arcfire is STUPID. So is Thoron. Robin also actually edgeguards REALLY well while ROB is terrible at edgeguarding.


Yeah he got nerfed hard. His throw combos/traps are still REALLY GOOD (D-throw -> Tornado is seriously good. Tornado does mad legit damage). He's a MONSTER at edgeguarding, still has some gimmick juggle gimps off the top, and he can't be trapped easily due to his amazing Down-B.


His weaknesses are extreme, but really not too unlike ROB's. But his strengths are clearly better than ROB's. He's better in neutral than ROB and does way more damage.


She's a nerfed Marth, but still has the advantage of being hard to trap and dangerous when juggling and edgeguarding. And her normals are still better than ROB's in neutral.


Like Bowser, with a better D-tilt and Down-B for frame traps and the spammable B-air instead of Firebreath, command grab, and Up-B out of shield.


Has a good reflector, arguably the best grab reward in the game, and can't be trapped easily.


Can you see why I believe this character is not valuable competitively?

Not to antagonize you here, but I don't really get it. You listed positives that other characters have that ROB doesn't, but neglected to mention ROB's own positives vs. those other characters. For instance, ROB has a fast, multi-hit up-air that can kill, and a n-air that hits above him. Does Bowser have anything like that that can juggle? Bowser might be better in neutral (key word: might; ROB does have two projectiles, no matter how often you can shield laser: a Sheik who is jumping into a non-commital fair you won't be blocking your turn-around laser, for instance), but he definitely has a worst followup game and a far worse camping game. B-air is strong but Bowser is overall worse at gimping than ROB.

Palutena has "arguably the best grab reward in the game" but doesn't have a kill throw to her name, whereas ROB does. He also doesn't have the slow grab animation that she's unfortunately stuck with. His tilts are significantly better (Palutena's tilts have too much endlag on them). This analysis seems very one-sided to me, when you mention how much better Pit and Dark Pit's tilts are than ROB's but neglect to mention the case where his own tilts beat someone else's.

Pit and Dark Pit, by the way, have a much harder time finishing a stock than ROB does, even if they do more damage. Better tilts and smashes is not even true: ROB's up-smash and f-smash are better than anything Pit or Dark Pit have: the range on both is incredible even if they do less damage (is that true? I haven't tested the damage).

You don't even list any reasons why Meta Knight is superior to ROB: you list some of Meta Knight's good characteristics, and then stop. Same for Wario and a few others. And this doesn't look at matchups at all. I understand that you think Mario and ROB have significant weaknesses, but this is going a little overboard imo. You can't prove that more than half of the roster is better than these two characters with generic blanket statements like these.

 

[DanGR]

As far as looking at videos goes, most people can't control their characters on the 3ds very well. Can you guys even spotdodge or pivotgrab reliably yet? I sure can't with these wacky ass control sticks and R/L buttons. I played in a tournament match against a dude with a broken L and R button because a replacement controller costs $100 LOL. How about edgeguarding? I can't reliably FF off the ledge and back-air people because I'm so used to a c-stick. I'm going to get stage spiked. You know many top level players' videos I've seen where they don't even attempt juggle traps? Yeah that's probably because it's way easier to sit on the stage and catch them as they land with like 2 buttons and a read instead of jumping with an up input, then inputting an aerial to the left while moving to the right, and then fast-falling with down, and starting all over again with 3 more opposite direction inputs if they jump.

How about dash dancing? Pivot smashes? Jump canceled, b-reversed moves out shield?

My point is I think you're jumping the gun when you use videos of 3ds gameplay for anything other than looking at mechanics. You have no idea how comfortable denti is on a 3ds, for example. Wait till the gc is used before you make presumptions about skill.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not to antagonize you here, but I don't really get it. You listed positives that other characters have that ROB doesn't, but neglected to mention ROB's own positives vs. those other characters. For instance, ROB has a fast, multi-hit up-air that can kill, and a n-air that hits above him. Does Bowser have anything like that that can juggle? Bowser might be better in neutral (key word: might; ROB does have two projectiles, no matter how often you can shield laser: a Sheik who is jumping into a non-commital fair you won't be blocking your turn-around laser, for instance), but he definitely has a worst followup game and a far worse camping game. B-air is strong but Bowser is overall worse at gimping than ROB.

Palutena has "arguably the best grab reward in the game" but doesn't have a kill throw to her name, whereas ROB does. He also doesn't have the slow grab animation that she's unfortunately stuck with. His tilts are significantly better (Palutena's tilts have too much endlag on them). This analysis seems very one-sided to me, when you mention how much better Pit and Dark Pit's tilts are than ROB's but neglect to mention the case where his own tilts beat someone else's.

Pit and Dark Pit, by the way, have a much harder time finishing a stock than ROB does, even if they do more damage. Better tilts and smashes is not even true: ROB's up-smash and f-smash are better than anything Pit or Dark Pit have: the range on both is incredible even if they do less damage (is that true? I haven't tested the damage).

You don't even list any reasons why Meta Knight is superior to ROB: you list some of Meta Knight's good characteristics, and then stop. Same for Wario and a few others. And this doesn't look at matchups at all. I understand that you think Mario and ROB have significant weaknesses, but this is going a little overboard imo. You can't prove that more than half of the roster is better than these two characters with generic blanket statements like these.

I already argued. ROB is not a good character unless he hits you with lasers. And that lasers cannot be relied on in neutral.

He's passable in neutral, and his projectiles can be good for captializing. But his reward is bad otherwise.

Outside of low percent combos, ROB doesn't have a real way to land U-air due to his crappy physics. In general his ability to juggle you is extremely limited because he's really floaty and jumps high.

Pit and Dark Pit have F-smashes that are what, frame 6? That's better than what ROB has. Also ROB can only land U-smash either during edge trap situations or when you make a noticeable mistake.

The point is, there are characters who have more situations where they can captialize than ROB, generally do better damage per hit, and are better at escaping traps. ROB is a character with mediocre reward, average neutral, and very bad negative state.

If I can prove that a character has better reward than ROB, they're usually better than him except in cases where you have characters that are just clearly bad in neutral.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I would rather do a tilt then a smash because her smashes have so much recovery for no reason.

I rather do her jab, dash attack, or throw then any of her tilts in any of the situations they might apply. Those are actually good. In fact I can't think of any attack she has that's worse then her tilts.

My point about smashes was sometimes thanks to the 3DS I use tilts instead of a smash. Besides, her smashes are still kill moves.

 

[Terotrous]

Characters I think are better than ROB, and reasons why:


These characters are almost indisputably top characters.

There's definitely loads of room to dispute Pika and Puff. I'd take ROB over either of them easily. There's also no question that Greninja should be here. IMO, Little Mac, Toon Link, and Peach should also be up there on this list of good characters, but I would put ROB up there too. Duck Hunt might go here, it's hard to tell at this point.


I also agree that Marth is better than most people give him credit for. Even with nerfed range, he still hits very hard if spaced correctly and his hitboxes are still very favourable. He might have slipped to mid tier but he's certainly not trash.


Deyond that I disagree with almost all of the rest. For example, with Bowser Jr, in what way is his Mechakoopa better than the gyro? Since the Gyro stays put, it's easier to put it where you want it, and it's also easier to toss it somewhere where you can pick it up. I would also definitely disagree that Pit's arrows are better than Laser. He can use them more often, but they're not nearly as fast, safe, or advantageous on hit. I also obviously disagree about, say, Falco and Zelda, who IMO do almost nothing better than ROB does.

I already argued. ROB is not a good character unless he hits you with lasers. And that lasers cannot be relied on in neutral.

Except that while you keep saying this, you haven't really provided any reasoning why moves like Ftilt, Dtilt, Uair, DSmash and UpSmash are bad. Particularly considering you were praising other characters for clearly inferior moves.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's definitely loads of room to dispute Pika and Puff. I'd take ROB over either of them easily. There's also no question that Greninja should be here. IMO, Little Mac, Toon Link, and Peach should also be up there on this list of good characters, but I would put ROB up there too. Duck Hunt might go here, it's hard to tell at this point.


I also agree that Marth is better than most people give him credit for. Even with nerfed range, he still hits very hard if spaced correctly and his hitboxes are still very favourable. He might have slipped to mid tier but he's certainly not trash.


I disagree with almost all of the rest. For example, with Bowser Jr, in what way is his Mechakoopa better than the gyro? Since the Gyro stays put, it's easier to put it where you want it, and it's also easier to toss it somewhere where you can pick it up. I would also definitely disagree that Pit's arrows are better than Laser. He can use them more often, but they're not nearly as fast, safe, or advantageous on hit. I also obviously disagree about, say, Falco and Zelda, who IMO do almost nothing better than ROB does.



Except that while you keep saying this, you haven't really provided any reasoning why moves like Ftilt, Dtilt, Uair, and UpSmash are bad. Particularly considering you were praising other characters for clearly inferior moves.

ROB's F-tilt and D-tilt are okay. D-tilt sometimes causes trips, but that's it and otherwise ROB's pokes are just...pokes that do low damage. U-air is okay, but ROB has awful physics for actually juggling. U-smash while better is still a conditional move that only works for punishing mistakes. You have to get your opponent to throw out something unsafe on block or get a really good read on edgetrapping to land U-smash.

There also isn't much room to dispute Pikachu and Puff. Pikachu basically has the same advantages as Sonic except with more focus on a slow moving projectile and less focus on insane run speed. Jiggs is Jiggs, has a killer B-air, shield break Pound, and buffed Rest (the hitbox is better allowing easier crouch/oos punishes).

You can actually set up item toss shenanigans with Mechakoopas because they can spawn right next to you. That's why they're MUCH better than Gyro, whereas you need a lot of space in order to set up Gyro. It's not even a contest. Mechakoopas are WAY better than Gyro. ROB can only easily set up Gyro in situations where he's in the positive state, and he gets hindered when it's caught.

Pit arrows have faster startup and aren't really less safe on shields. And they aren't cooldown constrained. You really want to argue ROB's laser is better outside of capitalization situations?

Also, you really don't have room to disagree with Falco and Zelda being better ROB as far as I'm concerned. They have better normals than him, better recoveries, do more damage, and kill better than he does, and also deal with camping and zoning very easily. Their movepools are PLAIN better than his. It's not even an argument at this point.

 

[NairWizard]

Ganondorf took 2nd in a 108 man Japanese tournament not long ago. I believe he has a chance of winning a national. You can argue lack of consistency is bad competitively, and that's exactly why Mario shouldn't win a national. His reward is heavily inconsistent.

The thing is, Ganondorf actually has good moves. Yeah, he has a problem in that almost all his moves aren't safe. But Ganondorf has an amazing D-tilt, Dash Attack, F-air, and U-air. Yes he's not GOOD in neutral, but thing is, basically everyone except possibly Sheik has to respect him. And Ganondorf is one of the few characters in the game who can basically kill you in two reads once you're not in neutral when moves like his D-air and F-air and U-air offstage just have LUDICROUS stock ending potential.

Also Charizard is clearly better than bottom tier. Good run speed, GREAT ground normals, aerials are not awful, Flare Blitz is GREAT for several things including getting past zoning and getting out of traps. Mario and Doc aren't as good as Charizard at dealing with zoning, don't have the same options to escape traps, and don't even have Charizard's reward.

Mario's advantages over Ganondorf:
- he's smaller and escapes more easily from traps (d-air, cape stall, even a fireball while recovering in certain matchups)
- he has a projectile (yes, no matter how bad you say it is, fireballs can create pressure in some matchups: he's not forced to approach characters like *gasp* Ganondorf and Bowser)
- he can edgeguard with cape, FLUDD, or just quick aerials: Ganondorf's edgeguards are not as easy to hit with, though I'm willing to be persuaded to the contrary
- his ground moves are faster
- almost everything he has is safer on block
- his hits string together if not combo: you can get a grab read after landing a tilt on someone because you don't push him as far away
- his rewards for getting a throw on you are much better
- he doesn't have dead moves like warlock punch

Ganondorf's advantages over Mario
- he has a command grab
- he lives to higher percents
- the reward for landing his hits is greater
- he kills earlier
- he has more range on his moves
- safer on hit with most moves

How is it that you list how well Charizard can get out of traps but then neglect to mention it as an advantage for Mario over Ganondorf? Again, I don't mean to antagonize you, but I just don't think that this kind of one-sided analysis has much value for the development of the metagame or our understanding of competitive characters.

For the sake of brevity I'll skip the discussion about Charizard and the followup on ROB, and agree that Flare Blitz is indeed good (though saying that his aerials are not awful is quite a stretch imo: the landing lag on those moves is quite intense for what they do).

I am willing to be persuaded that Ganondorf, Charizard, and Ike have better strategies or tools that they can employ in order to win a national, and in fact it would be great to see a remedy to their sluggish play. I haven't seen it yet, though. Gungnir makes good reads. That's always been one of Ganondorf's strengths, even in Brawl: if you make a few good reads with Brawl Ganondorf you can kill your opponent super early or tack on a lot of damage. Just see the Ganon Gauntlet for an example of this.

 

[Terotrous]

ROB's F-tilt and D-tilt are okay. D-tilt sometimes causes trips, but that's it. U-air is okay, but ROB has awful physics for actually juggling. U-smash while better is still a conditional move that only works for punishing mistakes. You have to get your opponent to throw out something unsafe on block or get a really good read on edgetrapping to land U-smash.

DTilt is also extremely fast and has good range. USmash is also definitely scary on landings because it has a nice disjoint, most Dairs will lose and obviously so will air dodge. It's also very strong.

ROB does have some legitimate combos starting from Nair or UTilt. They aren't terribly long, but he hits hard so the damage is still decent.

There also isn't much room to dispute Pikachu and Puff. Pikachu basically has the same advantages as Sonic except with more focus on a slow moving projectile and less focus on insane run speed. Jiggs is Jiggs, has a killer B-air, shield break Pound, and buffed Rest (the hitbox is better allowing easier crouch/oos punishes).

Pikachu's biggest problem is that he lacks kill moves, USmash is basically his only one at any reasonable percent, FSmash seems to have lost power and Thunder no longer kills. He really needs to get 64 Bair back, like in PM.

Puff has been buffed a bit, but she's still a totally one-dimensional character. She has zero long range moves and her range is also pretty small, which is bad for a character who has extremely low defense. Rest combos likely aren't as legit as they looked at first thanks to vectoring. Space Animal Slayer no longer works.

You can actually set up item toss shenanigans with Mechakoopas because they can spawn right next to you. That's why they're MUCH better than Gyro, whereas you need a lot of space in order to set up Gyro. It's not even a contest. Mechakoopas are WAY better than Gyro.

I assume you're talking about the custom Mechakoopa? Because otherwise you have to face the ledge to get the koopa. Uncharged Gyro really doesn't need that much space.

Pit arrows have faster startup and aren't really less safe on shields. And they aren't cooldown constrained. You really want to argue ROB's laser is better outside of capitalization situations?

Definitely. Pit's arrows are about as fast as level 2 laser, but it's way more advantageous on hit. Level 1 laser travels like twice as fast and thus is a much more dangerous option at distance.

Laser does take time to recharge, but it's not really that long. He still usually has it when he needs it.

Also, you really don't have room to disagree with Falco and Zelda being better ROB as far as I'm concerned. They have better normals than him, better recoveries, do more damage, and kill better than he does, and also deal with camping and zoning very easily. Their movepools are PLAIN better than his. It's not even an argument at this point.

Uhh, please name any Zelda normals that are better than Rob's. All of his tilts are much better in terms of speed and priority. His USmash and Dsmash are also much better than hers, being faster and more reliable. FSmash is maybe debatable. Uair and nair are also much better, uair beats air dodge and comes out faster, and nair is just a much better move in general. Bair is maybe about the same, Zelda's is a little stronger but it's much less reliable. I'd probably rather have ROB Fair simply because it's different from backair. Dair is about the same too.

The only thing about Zelda that's maybe good is UpB and Grab. Forward B is still trash and Down B is even worse.


Falco does have some good normals (even then, Rob's tilts are clearly better and you can make a good case for his Smashes too), but where he crushes Falco is in the projectile game. ROB's laser is way better than Falco's (as jokey as that sounds), and he also has the gyro. I would also definitely take Rob Nair and Uair over Falco. Falco does have a great recovery now, can't really complain about that, but I disagree that ROB's is bad. It's still at least decent.


Besides, to look at it a different way, ROB was a decent character in Brawl, who performed well in many matchups and was mostly held back by Metaknight. He got nothing but buffs. I don't see how you get "garbage character with one good move" out of that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's advantages over Ganondorf:
- he's smaller and escapes more easily from traps (d-air, cape stall, even a fireball while recovering in certain matchups)
- he has a projectile (yes, no matter how bad you say it is, fireballs can create pressure in some matchups: he's not forced to approach characters like *gasp* Ganondorf and Bowser)
- he can edgeguard with cape, FLUDD, or just quick aerials: Ganondorf's edgeguards are not as easy to hit with, though I'm willing to be persuaded to the contrary
- his ground moves are faster
- almost everything he has is safer on block
- his hits string together if not combo: you can get a grab read after landing a tilt on someone because you don't push him as far away
- his rewards for getting a throw on you are much better
- he doesn't have dead moves like warlock punch

Ganondorf's advantages over Mario
- he has a command grab
- he lives to higher percents
- the reward for landing his hits is greater
- he kills earlier
- he has more range on his moves
- safer on hit with most moves

How is it that you list how well Charizard can get out of traps but then neglect to mention it as an advantage for Mario over Ganondorf? Again, I don't mean to antagonize you, but I just don't think that this kind of one-sided analysis has much value for the development of the metagame or our understanding of competitive characters.

For the sake of brevity I'll skip the discussion about Charizard and the followup on ROB, and agree that Flare Blitz is indeed good (though saying that his aerials are not awful is quite a stretch imo: the landing lag on those moves is quite intense for what they do).

I am willing to be persuaded that Ganondorf, Charizard, and Ike have better strategies or tools that they can employ in order to win a national, and in fact it would be great to see a remedy to their sluggish play. I haven't seen it yet, though. Gungnir makes good reads. That's always been one of Ganondorf's strengths, even in Brawl: if you make a few good reads with Brawl Ganondorf you can kill your opponent super early or tack on a lot of damage. Just see the Ganon Gauntlet for an example of this.

Mario I agree being a small character is a noticeable advantage. But he's not better at escaping traps than Ganondorf.

Ganondorf has aerial wizkick, which forces people to play respectfully when juggling him. Mario's Cape Stalling got nerfed in this game and no longer holds him in the air to nearly the same extent as it did previously, so Mario is just complete food to juggles and edgeguards while having no aerials that need to be respected.

Mario doesn't really edgeguard much better aside from having Fireballs. He doesn't have Ganondorf's ridiculous 6 frame U-air that also towards the end covers huge options behind and below him. He doesn't have Ganon's N-air or F-air or B-air either. Ganondorf hits you with ANYTHING offstage and you die, and his hitboxes are HUGE and quick.

Mario's ground moves may be fast, but they are not better than Ganondorf's. Mario doesn't have Jab cancel combos in this game, while Ganondorf's hits do like twice as much damage and have greater range. Ganondorf when he runs at you forces you to actually respect him somewhat in footsies because you aren't going to challenge his DA directly. Mario can't do anything like that.

Mario's hits stringing together...would be great if he had his Brawl damage output. But when you have a negative state as terrible as Mario's and can't afford to trade hits, that's just...not acceptable to not have frame tight combos.

Also Mario's throw reward isn't necessarily better. D-throw U-tilt only does 11 damage, and in most matchups nothing is actually guaranteed after that. Ganondorf does 13% with F-throw, and his D-throw U-air at low percents does 19%.

DTilt is also extremely fast and has good range. USmash is also definitely scary on landings because it has a nice disjoint, most Dairs will lose and obviously so will air dodge. It's also very strong.

ROB does have some legitimate combos starting from Nair or UTilt. They aren't terribly long, but he hits hard so the damage is still decent.



Pikachu's biggest problem is that he lacks kill moves, USmash is basically his only one at any reasonable percent, FSmash seems to have lost power and Thunder no longer kills. He really needs to get 64 Bair back, like in PM.

Puff has been buffed a bit, but she's still a totally one-dimensional character. She has zero long range moves and her range is also pretty small, which is bad for a character who has extremely low defense. Rest combos likely aren't as legit as they looked at first thanks to vectoring. Space Animal Slayer no longer works.



I assume you're talking about the custom Mechakoopa? Because otherwise you have to face the ledge to get the koopa. Uncharged Gyro really doesn't need that much space.



Definitely. Pit's arrows are about as fast as level 2 laser, but it's way more advantageous on hit. Level 1 laser travels like twice as fast and thus is a much more dangerous option at distance.

Laser does take time to recharge, but it's not really that long. He still usually has it when he needs it.



Uhh, please name any Zelda normals that are better than Rob's. All of his tilts are much better in terms of speed and priority. His USmash and Dsmash are also much better than hers, being faster and more reliable. FSmash is maybe debatable. Uair and nair are also much better, uair beats air dodge and comes out faster, and nair is just a much better move in general. Bair is maybe about the same, her's is a little stronger but it's much less reliable. I'd probably rather have ROB Fair simply because it's different from backair. Dair is about the same too.

Good luck landing U-smash on characters that actually have landing options. You'll get characters with bad mobility and landing options sure. That doesn't make ROB good.

ROB hits hard? Not really except on specific moves. He also does low damage per hit. That isn't much different from Pikachu except Pikachu has better juggles, traps, and WAY better neutral than ROB and absolutely can't be trapped by anyone. Also Jiggs doesn't need Rest combos when she actually can break shields this game, and when Rest out of shield has to be respected.

Also, facing the ledge to get a Mechakoopa is much less conditional than having the space to throw out Gyro, run up to it, and then grab it. Discounting that Bowser Jr gets a lot more out of Mechakoopa than ROB does out of Gyro, and isn't hindered to nearly the same extent when the item is caught by enemies.

Zelda has a better D-tilt than ROB that actually starts juggles instead of unreliable trip combos, and if it's outranged, it's not by a very serious amount. Both her Jab and F-smash have great range and are safer on block than ROB's options. Zelda and ROB have similar DAs and dashgrabs but Zelda gets more reward out of either (you can even confirm KOs off Zelda's D-throw sometimes with D-throw -> Up-B and her B-throw is also a better KO option than ROB's U-throw). Zelda unlike ROB can actually edgeguard, kills earlier in land trap situations and is actually better at chasing landings than ROB due to the options she can cover with Up-B. And she has a superior recovery and edgeguarding than ROB and because her D-air isn't stupid she can actually chase low recoveries.

Also, you argue ROB got buffs, when you discount that the physics engine is objectively TERRIBLE for him, and that his F-tilt is a LOT LOT worse in this game. ROB's game in Brawl worked well because of his GODLY F-tilt, and also because it was easy for ROB to get back to neutral in most matchups by airdodging. ROB actually walled characters very hard if he played well. Even Metaknight actually needed to think carefully before approaching ROB in Brawl, minus the fact ROB would never land on the ground after getting hit. The other thing that made ROB really dangerous in Brawl was the fact that several characters literally couldn't get up from the ledge against him if he played right. Which ROB can't do in this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Which enforces the point that nobody is even remotely close to mastering this game yet. People are too quick to judge characters as if all of the top players are playing their respective mains/matchups optimally, when this clearly isn't the case.

Trela vs Denti is a great example of this (http://youtu.be/ipXpPPwrFMg?t=12m2s). Trela played amazing but lets be real here; Denti clearly had no idea what he was doing against Zard. I've already seen people jumping to conclusions by somehow suggesting that the MU is even or even favorable for Zard based off of that ONE set. No... just no.

Sorry for going off on a tangent there but I'm just getting irritated with people jumping to conclusions based on early meta/sub-optimal play.

I still think people are horribly underrating Zard though.

Also lol at that Flare Blitz killing at 39%.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Can you explain your thoughts on Pit's ftilt? We can't read your mind and figure out what The Truth is supposed to mean.

Its probably in my top 10 for spacing tools. It should be taken as a whole with his kit however pits ftilt is straight counter aggression. Its not slow to come out covers significant range and let's him maintain the neutral game while removing and dettering their options. You want to grab but pit has ftilt. You want an aerial check the spacing required.
Shulks ftilt has length but not at all as safe or quick a response.

Can you explain your thoughts on Pit's ftilt? We can't read your mind and figure out what The Truth is supposed to mean.

Fantastic spacing tool. range is deceptively long because Pit steps forward into the attack he outranges Marths ftilt, and is faster than Shulks. The hitbox is a semi-circle frop the top of his head to the ground infront of him, disjointed with considerable range this denies on its own quite a few aerial approach options, because you can't get past the tilt with an aerial without a long disjoint of your own, there aren't many characters in this game that frankly can do so.
We could discuss how other characters have similar, Marths Ftilt, Shulks ftilt and utilt, D3's Ftilt can be another example.
They have a) Less reach and/or b) are more suspectible to punish and/or c) start-up too slow in comparison where Pit can use his ftilt on reflex to an approach. This makes a couple things harder
A) Empty approaches
B) Aerial approaches
C) Grab rushes
Quite frankly you'll find it more troublesome to deal with Pits Ftilt than Shulk,Marths or D3's. It's just a strong combination of Range and speed.

If you try an Empty approach on Shulk or DDD this can work because even though shulks Ftilt isn't one of the slower moves in his kit, it's still not a rather quick move and he can't throw Ftilts out to the degree Pit does because of the risk of punishment.
Aerial approaches end up the same way, except Shulk and DDD's hitbox's don't even cover a favorable angle to stop the aerials like Pits does. Marth certainly has the angle but he doesn't have the overall range to cover his bases because Pit steps forward, he's going to reach you before you can reach him. Essentially form a sphere of influence around a character to indicate when an opponent is in attack range, on a general level Pit is beating out Marth Horizontally in a way that covers Short hops in general. Full hops would warrant different options but you're given the time when reacting to a full hop to change those options.


C) just is a reinforcement of other issues, you throw out an attack against a grab but are worried about the lag if you made the wrong decision. Pits ftilt isn't as laggy by comparison. Pits got a great zoning game between Ftilt, arrows, Upperdash, Orbitars and his grab. His options to enemies above him aren't very strong, but few people want to come straight down on an opponent to make pits weaker options relevant.


It's the Truth because you have to check yourself and respect it alone, then you consider pits other options which are reinforced by him having the ftilt available to him. Pit's one of the hardest people to approach when he's just walking. He simply controls too much space around him and characters that can out-range that typically only do so with something that is straight up too laggy to be a healthy option.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

As far as looking at videos goes, most people can't control their characters on the 3ds very well. Can you guys even spotdodge or pivotgrab reliably yet? I sure can't with these wacky *** control sticks and R/L buttons. I played in a tournament match against a dude with a broken L and R button because a replacement controller costs $100 LOL. How about edgeguarding? I can't reliably FF off the ledge and back-air people because I'm so used to a c-stick. I'm going to get stage spiked. You know many top level players' videos I've seen where they don't even attempt juggle traps? Yeah that's probably because it's way easier to sit on the stage and catch them as they land with like 2 buttons and a read instead of jumping with an up input, then inputting an aerial to the left while moving to the right, and then fast-falling with down, and starting all over again with 3 more opposite direction inputs if they jump.

How about dash dancing? Pivot smashes? Jump canceled, b-reversed moves out shield?

My point is I think you're jumping the gun when you use videos of 3ds gameplay for anything other than looking at mechanics. You have no idea how comfortable denti is on a 3ds, for example. Wait till the gc is used before you make presumptions about skill.

Gurl I can't even short hop bair yet

hairflip

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also Mario's throw reward isn't necessarily better. D-throw U-tilt only does 11 damage, and in most matchups nothing is actually guaranteed after that. Ganondorf does 13% with F-throw, and his D-throw U-air at low percents does 19%.

0% or low %s in general, Mario's Uthrow can go into Dair (full jump Dair) and you can basically jump out of the last hit of Dair (it's really good) and combo into literally ANY AERIAL YOU WANT. You can even do another Dair and after that Dair you can do Super Jump Punch after that! (Also makes Explosive Jump Punch excellent) If you hit them with the hand that is behind Mario you can set up a Bair wall, adversely front hand lets you combo into Fair, yes, a registered combo into Fair. It also averages out at 20-30% damage which sets up Mario's Mid % options (IMO his strongest options) up pretty smoothly. I need more people to test if you can nair out of the Dair after Uthrow but I can't imagine anyone but like, Luigi can. Since Uthrow gives you a free Uair I can't imagine Dair takes that much more frames.

 

[A2ZOMG]

0% or low %s in general, Mario's Uthrow can go into Dair (full jump Dair) and you can basically jump out of the last hit of Dair (it's really good) and combo into literally ANY AERIAL YOU WANT. You can even do another Dair and after that Dair you can do Super Jump Punch after that! (Also makes Explosive Jump Punch excellent) If you hit them with the hand that is behind Mario you can set up a Bair wall, adversely front hand lets you combo into Fair, yes, a registered combo into Fair. It also averages out at 20-30% damage which sets up Mario's Mid % options (IMO his strongest options) up pretty smoothly. I need more people to test if you can nair out of the Dair after Uthrow but I can't imagine anyone but like, Luigi can. Since Uthrow gives you a free Uair I can't imagine Dair takes that much more frames.

I'm more worried about that being VI dependent but yeah, at 0% Mario's U-throw is decent. It's still very hard for Mario to get really good reward from throws, and it's not the same as someone like Ganondorf who can start trying to KO you as early as 70-80% with F-smash or 100% with aerials. In that respect, Ganondorf's throw game is hugely rewarding when he doesn't need many of them to put people at danger percents.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's still more rewarding than Ganon's throws. At high % Ganon throws are VI susceptible (since it scales based on % AND KB to my knowledge) and really unreliable, even D-Throw. D-Throw to Uair only works for so long. Also if Ganon tries to KO anyone with FSmash off of anything but the hardest of reads which is incredibly sketchy and requires perfect gameplay, good on them, because that will never happen unless someone is 100% opened up. Also Ganondorf's aerials BETTER KO better than Mario's because his air speed is not very good and neither are his movement speeds.

Danger %s against Mario are when his combo game actually gets good and when he can start converting hits together. He struggles at lower %s but once his stuff starts to put you in middling hitstun (let's say, 30-70% damage roughly, anything higher is a lot of KB) a lot of his stuff flows together a lot more smoothly, UAir chains are possible. This is just my opinion but I've been straight up in the lab with Mario for like 8 hours minimum testing crap and this is what I came up with.

 

[Jabejazz]

As far as looking at videos goes, most people can't control their characters on the 3ds very well. Can you guys even spotdodge or pivotgrab reliably yet? I sure can't with these wacky *** control sticks and R/L buttons. I played in a tournament match against a dude with a broken L and R button because a replacement controller costs $100 LOL. How about edgeguarding? I can't reliably FF off the ledge and back-air people because I'm so used to a c-stick. I'm going to get stage spiked. You know many top level players' videos I've seen where they don't even attempt juggle traps? Yeah that's probably because it's way easier to sit on the stage and catch them as they land with like 2 buttons and a read instead of jumping with an up input, then inputting an aerial to the left while moving to the right, and then fast-falling with down, and starting all over again with 3 more opposite direction inputs if they jump.

How about dash dancing? Pivot smashes? Jump canceled, b-reversed moves out shield?

My point is I think you're jumping the gun when you use videos of 3ds gameplay for anything other than looking at mechanics. You have no idea how comfortable denti is on a 3ds, for example. Wait till the gc is used before you make presumptions about skill.

Basedest comment of this thread.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I still think people are horribly underrating Zard though.

Also lol at that Flare Blitz killing at 39%.

He's definitely underrated and people are just now starting to figure that out.

No idea where he'll end up on the tier list but his overall toolset is extremely solid for a heavyweight.

 

[popsofctown]

He's definitely underrated and people are just now starting to figure that out.

No idea where he'll end up on the tier list but his overall toolset is extremely solid for a heavyweight.

Lots of zards I have played use Flare Blitz in neutral, which is.. unique. In a lagless environment, you can definitely shield it on reaction and get a damage profit. But latency added by online is enough that human reaction time can't handle it. It's close enough to the line beween reactible and not reactible that I think even local wirelesses probable small latency is relevant to its strength. I hope Charizard develops more towards an emphasis on using the other cool elements of his kits in a way that makes opportunities to -punish- with flare blitz plentiful, but I feel like it will take until the Wii U to see what that looks like.