Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Lots of zards I have played use Flare Blitz in neutral, which is.. unique. In a lagless environment, you can definitely shield it on reaction and get a damage profit. But latency added by online is enough that human reaction time can't handle it. It's close enough to the line beween reactible and not reactible that I think even local wirelesses probable small latency is relevant to its strength. I hope Charizard develops more towards an emphasis on using the other cool elements of his kits in a way that makes opportunities to -punish- with flare blitz plentiful, but I feel like it will take until the Wii U to see what that looks like.

Yeah, that's just For Glory shenanigans. Flare Blitz is good primarily for mobility and punishing commitments. It's conditional, but it has clear purposes.

Charizard's big thing is he seems to be a heavy that has a relatively easy time getting back to neutral. His pokes aren't quite as outstanding, but he has a great Jab and grab to make up for that.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Lots of zards I have played use Flare Blitz in neutral, which is.. unique. In a lagless environment, you can definitely shield it on reaction and get a damage profit. But latency added by online is enough that human reaction time can't handle it. It's close enough to the line beween reactible and not reactible that I think even local wirelesses probable small latency is relevant to its strength. I hope Charizard develops more towards an emphasis on using the other cool elements of his kits in a way that makes opportunities to -punish- with flare blitz plentiful, but I feel like it will take until the Wii U to see what that looks like.

As Zard's get better and people adapt you'll see less and less Flare Blitz usage, but even without it Zards punish game is very diverse.

If customs are embraced I wouldn't be surprised if Dragon Rush became the standard tbh. It's godlike in neutral.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Nah, Zard still sucks.

However I have given a lot of consideration into Zero Suit Samus's position in the meta. I have a feeling that although most here would agree she's in the top 5 characters cause of insanely good aerials and plenty of killpower, I think she'll die down to sit comfortably in the top 10.

The reason I suggest this is that she lacks any really strong tools to get her enemy in the air. Dash attack is good, but is blocked and countered easily, and her grab is predictable. On top of this, although her side- and up-smashes have good hitboxes the animations are quite laggy and so make them risky to use. My point is although ZSS seems scary, I think that as players learn to work against her she'll drop from favour a bit.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Nah, Zard still sucks.

This post sucks.

Can't take your opinions seriously if you don't want to take the discussion seriously.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah, Zard still sucks.

However I have given a lot of consideration into Zero Suit Samus's position in the meta. I have a feeling that although most here would agree she's in the top 5 characters cause of insanely good aerials and plenty of killpower, I think she'll die down to sit comfortably in the top 10.

The reason I suggest this is that she lacks any really strong tools to get her enemy in the air. Dash attack is good, but is blocked and countered easily, and her grab is predictable. On top of this, although her side- and up-smashes have good hitboxes the animations are quite laggy and so make them risky to use. My point is although ZSS seems scary, I think that as players learn to work against her she'll drop from favour a bit.

Tether grab buffs are the reason why I believe ZSS is scary. It just considerably reduces the risk of her trying to open you up when she isn't just guaranteed to be open to free Smashes when she tries to grab you. Though pushing her out of top 5 I might understand.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

This post sucks.

Can't take your opinions seriously if you don't want to take the discussion seriously.

Well I haven't seen any post from you which actually gives specific details on why he's any good. I think he sucks because he has mediocre range, laggy animations, interceptable recovery and no real buffs from Brawl, from what I can tell, aside from the splitting from Pokemon Trainer and giving him a different special which sucks unless you give him Dragon Rush (and even then on block it's not totally safe). I don't see many points in Zard's favour that can't be applied to a lot of other heavyweights this game like Ganon and DK.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If I think anyone is underrated atm It's Shulk. Granted I haven't exactly given him a standing review here with me saying his Jab is poor but the truth will set you free. Though looking at a lot of impressions/lists where is placed right at the bottom...

I don't really see him with any match-up qualms against most heavys. Vision counter for one is a considerable deterrent, however he also consistently outranges what everything but DDD and Ike in the heavy section? They're also the most susceptible to his M-art cancel given their weight allowing him better chains. He can eat Mac's stupid ass K.O punch up to what 60-80%?

His problems being slow start-ups, ending lag.

 

[Conda]

Tether grab buffs are the reason why I believe ZSS is scary. It just considerably reduces the risk of her trying to open you up when she isn't just guaranteed to be open to free Smashes when she tries to grab you. Though pushing her out of top 5 I might understand.

How about that Toon Link with Bthrow kill + fast as heck tether grab. Hooie!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well I haven't seen any post from you which actually gives specific details on why he's any good. I think he sucks because he has mediocre range, laggy animations, interceptable recovery and no real buffs from Brawl, from what I can tell, aside from the splitting from Pokemon Trainer and giving him a different special which sucks unless you give him Dragon Rush (and even then on block it's not totally safe). I don't see many points in Zard's favour that can't be applied to a lot of other heavyweights this game like Ganon and DK.

His range isn't great depends on the move, or doesn't matter in some cases.

Laggy also depends on the move, but given how he is a read character and will be relying sometimes on super armor to win out trades I think this is more or less where his kit is.

His recovery can be intercepted but it's still godlike in terms of raw distance. Flare Blitz is literally his best move by far.

He's better than Brawl for one main reason, fatigue doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I made a post about Zard like 50 pages ago which I think describes him well enough:

Zard's fine as is, yeah. His up B is a decent kill/recovery move, neutral b is super underrated, especially to cover landings, down b is amazing for getting out of pressure situations, and side b is possibly the best long range punish move in the game. Also, Zard's nair offstage is AMAZING for edgeguarding, his fair is basically a carbon copy of Bowser's fair, which we all know is good, his tilts all have great range, and he's actually decently mobile too. His only real problem is he doesnt have too much safe on block and hes not great at approaching safely. Other than that he's fine.

Shulk is good, feel like he'll always be a solid mid tier.

And Toon Link is great, high tier at least.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I don't think I've seen more than like 2 tournament sets with Puff yet.

But hey, this is an undisputed top tier character right?

I play a bit of Puff too (and in Melee). When did we come to this consensus that she is God tier? Or is it all just "omg GCC" hyp(e)otheticals?

 

[The Real Gamer]

I don't see many points in Zard's favour that can't be applied to a lot of other heavyweights this game like Ganon and DK.

Well for starters DK and Ganon aren't top 10 in mobility which makes them much more prone to being projectile camped.
Neither have Flare Blitz, which is self explanatory.
Neither have reliable ways to escape juggle combos, while Zard has a great tool for that in Rock Smash.
Zard's grab range is superior.
Better recovery options.
I'd argue Zard's offstage game is superior/more versatile thanks to Flamethrower, multiple jumps, a strong/long reaching Bair (not sure if it's longer than DK's though), and Dragon Rush. Hell even Flare Blitz is a strong offstage tool on Omega stages with walls.
Neither can kill confirm off of their jab.

Those are points I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well for starters DK and Ganon aren't top 10 in mobility which makes them much more prone to being projectile camped.
Neither have Flare Blitz, which is self explanatory.
Neither have reliable ways to escape juggle combos, while Zard has a great tool for that in Rock Smash.
Zard's grab range is superior.
Better recovery options.
I'd argue Zard's offstage game is superior/more versatile thanks to Flamethrower, multiple jumps, a strong/long reaching Bair (not sure if it's longer than DK's though), and Dragon Rush. Hell even Flare Blitz is a strong offstage tool on Omega stages with walls.
Neither can kill confirm off of their jab.

Those are points I can think of off the top of my head.

eh, with customs ganon can be a lot more mobile and work around being camped better.

Not disagreeing with things you brought up about Zard but still.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well for starters DK and Ganon aren't top 10 in mobility which makes them much more prone to being projectile camped.
Neither have Flare Blitz, which is self explanatory.
Neither have reliable ways to escape juggle combos, while Zard has a great tool for that in Rock Smash.
Zard's grab range is superior.
Better recovery options.
I'd argue Zard's offstage game is superior/more versatile thanks to Flamethrower, multiple jumps, a strong/long reaching Bair (not sure if it's longer than DK's though), and Dragon Rush. Hell even Flare Blitz is a strong offstage tool on Omega stages with walls.
Neither can kill confirm off of their jab.

Those are points I can think of off the top of my head.

Charziard can also kill second jumps/recovery off stage pretty well with the one custom option he had for Neutral B. The one that changes it to a really long range one. Personal experience with it is only online against friends, but that custom option is a gimping machine for me. And if it doesn't gimp them, I'm tacking on extra damage the whole time. I can't think of any other character that can reach that far while still being safe on stage, that rapidly outside of Ness' Up B custom.

I don't know if I would call Rock Smash a good tool for escaping juggles though. It doesn't get SAFs on start up. Its an option, but I don't know if I would call it a reliable option.

Dragon Rush is pretty amazing as a side note.

 

[Pudgy Monk]

Nah, Zard still sucks.

However I have given a lot of consideration into Zero Suit Samus's position in the meta. I have a feeling that although most here would agree she's in the top 5 characters cause of insanely good aerials and plenty of killpower, I think she'll die down to sit comfortably in the top 10.

The reason I suggest this is that she lacks any really strong tools to get her enemy in the air. Dash attack is good, but is blocked and countered easily, and her grab is predictable. On top of this, although her side- and up-smashes have good hitboxes the animations are quite laggy and so make them risky to use. My point is although ZSS seems scary, I think that as players learn to work against her she'll drop from favour a bit.

Doesn't ZSS's blaster help alleviate that though? It allows for a deadly midrange set-up that often forces one to either shield or risk being grabbed, and her dthrow can easily lead into a variety of aerial combos. As you said, her grab is rather predictable at times and pretty easy to punish, but ZSS has a lot going for her, including what you mentioned but also a great jab and decent spacing tools. I've had problems using ZSS against Sheik, but even later I can't imagine her having more than a few bad matchups as the meta game goes along.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Doesn't ZSS's blaster help alleviate that though? It allows for a deadly midrange set-up that often forces one to either shield or risk being grabbed, and her dthrow can easily lead into a variety of aerial combos. As you said, her grab is rather predictable at times and pretty easy to punish, but ZSS has a lot going for her, including what you mentioned but also a great jab and decent spacing tools. I've had problems using ZSS against Sheik, but even later I can't imagine her having more than a few bad matchups as the meta game goes along.

The blaster is good indeed, but as a Shulk main I have literally zero problem with it as nair out-prioritises it, and I'm sure a lot of other characters have move to a similar effect (although I haven't tested). And yeah, she's still a scary character to play against but I think there are worse to worry about.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Charziard can also kill second jumps/recovery off stage pretty well with the one custom option he had for Neutral B. The one that changes it to a really long range one. Personal experience with it is only online against friends, but that custom option is a gimping machine for me. And if it doesn't gimp them, I'm tacking on extra damage the whole time. I can't think of any other character that can reach that far while still being safe on stage, that rapidly outside of Ness' Up B custom.

I still haven't messed around with FC enough, but I could definitely see it being another lethal offstage tool depending on the MU.

I don't know if I would call Rock Smash a good tool for escaping juggles though. It doesn't get SAFs on start up. Its an option, but I don't know if I would call it a reliable option.

Not reliable in all juggle scenarios, but it definitely forces your opponent to respect it at least.

Dragon Rush is pretty amazing as a side note.

It's so goooooood!! I get offstage gimps with it all the time.
http://youtu.be/qH053DojVS4?t=1m12s
http://youtu.be/jV9Vuo5Fb4U?t=32s
http://youtu.be/7YSJjQl7BHM?t=52s

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Charziard can also kill second jumps/recovery off stage pretty well with the one custom option he had for Neutral B. The one that changes it to a really long range one. Personal experience with it is only online against friends, but that custom option is a gimping machine for me. And if it doesn't gimp them, I'm tacking on extra damage the whole time. I can't think of any other character that can reach that far while still being safe on stage, that rapidly outside of Ness' Up B custom.

I don't know if I would call Rock Smash a good tool for escaping juggles though. It doesn't get SAFs on start up. Its an option, but I don't know if I would call it a reliable option.

Dragon Rush is pretty amazing as a side note.

That fireball cannon is bad. You have to commit to three slow blasts. You lose the ability to land with neutral B. Being able to screw over second jumps is cool, but charizard already has a massive offstage kit, while he needs the approach of flamethrower most of the time.

Dragon Rush is amazing, but I'm starting to think that flare blitz will be important. Kill opponent half a stage away on a good read. Losing a long distance KO move can really hurt, even if its replaced by a less punishable move.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I think choosing b/t Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz is going to be heavily MU dependent. Once people get used to Zard they won't leave nearly as many openings for long range Flare Blitz reads (which means less projectile spam which works in our favor).

They're both so damn good though... Can't go wrong with either. <3

 

[Pudgy Monk]

I feel like flare blitz will singlehandedly keep Charizard from purgatory.

 

[KenMeister]

I kind of feel like everyone and their mother has beaten on this like a dead horse but, I keep seeing low opinions on Dr. Mario. I will admit his isn't amazing or anything, but I don't think he's bad. Is there a reason he has negative standings outside of having slower mobility than Mario and one of the worst recoveries in the game? I remember someone mentioning Mario isn't great because of bad damage output and fares poorly in trades, but does Doc face that problem as well, or is the % difference in attack power good enough to not matter?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I kind of feel like everyone and their mother has beaten on this like a dead horse but, I keep seeing low opinions on Dr. Mario. I will admit his isn't amazing or anything, but I don't think he's bad. Is there a reason he has negative standings outside of having slower mobility than Mario and one of the worst recoveries in the game? I remember someone mentioning Mario isn't great because of bad damage output and fares poorly in trades, but does Doc face that problem as well, or is the % difference in attack power good enough to not matter?

At times...I think Doc is better than Mario just simply because his B-air is GROSS compared to Mario's. Like, Doc B-air is a RIDICULOUS move. 6 frames, 14%, kills at like what, 125% if fresh?

But then I look at his run speed and realize...yeah, with that level of mobility and poor hitboxes he's not accomplishing much usually. At least Ganondorf has scary hitboxes that you don't want to challenge. Not the case with Doc.

 

[popsofctown]

Custom Doc has one of the best recoveries in the game.

 

[g0rilla]

I think 75 pages of mario discussion is enough guys.

 

[The Real Gamer]

You can't stop the Mario theorizing.

You can only hope to contain it.

 

[Shaya]

Let's just all agree that Mario is somewhere between high tier and bottom tier, and that Doctor Mario is unique enough with his own traits to feasibly be in a different position (potentially even vastly different) than his original.

Anyway, can't really blame anyone in particular about us going back to Mario all the time. There are only so many people in here who are able to give insight on their characters with as much enthusiasm as A2. But I think it's A2s fault that every time he talks about any character, he starts comparing them to Marios, and when someone questions that (not your faulT) you go on a short-essay spree to repeat yourself for the umpteenth time. I really humbly request A2 that you start just... linking back to other posts you've made answering the same question/saying the same thing rather than constantly recycling the same mario-discussion-flowchart.

Please.

 

[g0rilla]

Love ya Shaya

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think we should just STAHP with Mario altogether. Maybe go on about Doc, maybe not. I think it's important to move on, so I'm about to go on about Falcon

I absolutely love him in this game, they did so much to him, I'm glad I stuck with him for all this time and it didn't blow up in my face! He feels super good. Great dash grab, good combo game, solid pressure and offensive options, and that Dtilt sends at such a disgustingly good angle (especially against Little Mac.) I think he's got a bright future.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Amazing how little adjustments to his movekit and slight tweaks to the feel of the game can propel a character from the abyss up to a high-tier contender.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think we should just STAHP with Mario altogether. Maybe go on about Doc, maybe not. I think it's important to move on, so I'm about to go on about Falcon

I absolutely love him in this game, they did so much to him, I'm glad I stuck with him for all this time and it didn't blow up in my face! He feels super good. Great dash grab, good combo game, solid pressure and offensive options, and that Dtilt sends at such a disgustingly good angle (especially against Little Mac.) I think he's got a bright future.

I think the only question I have about Falcon, is what he can do against Sheik, Peach, and Pikachu. Those matchups look disgustingly hard for him from what I've seen.

I really humbly request A2 that you start just... linking back to other posts you've made answering the same question/saying the same thing rather than constantly recycling the same mario-discussion-flowchart.

Please.

Just to troll you, I won't do exactly that. Instead I'm going to link a post from @ItsRainingGravy for my sig.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Falcon's gonna struggle a bit against Pika due to...well, short hitboxes : (. Peach I don't have enough experience with, IDK about Sheik either, but he seems to be pretty favorable overall against most of the cast. I would say projectiles are an issue but his run speed and dash grab can literally PUNISH them if you do it right and that is just...terrifying.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Amazing how little adjustments to his movekit and slight tweaks to the feel of the game can propel a character from the abyss up to a high-tier contender.

Htstun is sooo huge for Falcon. The death of hitstun (not 100%, I know better than to say that) from Melee to Brawl was the death of Falcon.

Combos are so huge for him, and as a big fan of Falcon, I'm happy both he and them are back to a respectable level.

And Raptor Boost killing is just... Awesome.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Falcon's gonna struggle a bit against Pika due to...well, short hitboxes : (. Peach I don't have enough experience with, IDK about Sheik either, but he seems to be pretty favorable overall against most of the cast. I would say projectiles are an issue but his run speed and dash grab can literally PUNISH them if you do it right and that is just...terrifying.

Projectile camping isn't really a problem for Falcon. It's just I feel the characters I mentioned edgeguard Falcon well and can be difficult for him to grab or approach with aerials.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't think I've seen more than like 2 tournament sets with Puff yet.

But hey, this is an undisputed top tier character right?

I play a bit of Puff too (and in Melee). When did we come to this consensus that she is God tier? Or is it all just "omg GCC" hyp(e)otheticals?

Yay the first post I've read of the 3000 not either summarising the mario is not top tier (which is all that's been achieved), or overrating ZSS.

Mostly seems to be theory crafting that Jiggz match ups against percieved best characters aren't too bad. But as you mentioned, and I've noticed, there's very little representation at top level play so it's hard to argue that that theory relates itself to those match ups. That and she feels a lot better than the brawl version (which really isn't saying much) and people get a bit carried away when that happens.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yay the first post I've read of the 3000 not either summarising the mario is not top tier (which is all that's been achieved), or overrating ZSS.

Mostly seems to be theory crafting that Jiggz match ups against percieved best characters aren't too bad. But as you mentioned, and I've noticed, there's very little representation at top level play so it's hard to argue that that theory relates itself to those match ups. That and she feels a lot better than the brawl version (which really isn't saying much) and people get a bit carried away when that happens.

Brawl Jigglypuff was an extremely underrated and decent character. Was not realistically bottom tier especially if we factor that she is one of few characters that could use Diddy's banana's better than he could, and also had some broken things like edgestalling and fastfall airdodging to the ground. On top of fundamentally SAFE spacing and very good edgeguarding and above average out of shield options. Only thing she didn't have was safe KO setups, and would have probably been better than Wario if she did have that.

Now she did lose fastfall airdodging to the ground and edge stalling, but in this game she can break shields viably, which is something not even Melee Puff could do. So now she's a solid character that actually has some really extreme and low counterplay advantages.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I'd like to see more Kirby and Ness discussion to be honest. The only insight I get is from the Kirby section, and it feels like not many of us even use him. It's incredibly frustrating when you're using somebody and most battles seem very uphill, or when you're looking for advice, but there doesn't seem to be much info on the match ups or strategies. In most of these posts, it looks like nobody even considers Kirby a threat? Seem like the only times he's gotten discussed here is when I brought him up.

 

[Shaya]

Amazing how little adjustments to his movekit and slight tweaks to the feel of the game can propel a character from the abyss up to a high-tier contender.

His range/priority have been heavily buffed. His fast normals, the likes of his forward smash (not saying it's a reliable move or whatever) are like 3 swords length+ in range. Up air is near infallible. Back air is amazing.
I think he will struggle a lot with shorter characters, his jump heights and mobility specifics seem to just shaft him naturally against such characters. His short hop game just naturally doesn't pressure when it's only neutral air, and his ground game 'working' comes from people having to be careful about what he does in the air.

No edge hogging = good.
Having an extremely high damage spread when other previous high tiers (and some still in this game) all live with sub 10% is pretty big.
Not being comparatively slower on his landing lag is a huge buff (much like what I feel about Ike's aerial landing lag spread).
The lag of his attacks and their range have all been buffed, he outranges your character most likely and outspeeds them too. His kill power is in the sub 100% spread on many attacks, that makes him obnoxiously potent.

In short... Falcon had
All of his moves damage / knock back increased considerably.
Didn't have these moves landing lag doubled like others.
All of his range / priority was buffed considerably.
Start up and ending lag on most other moves tweaked heavily in his favour.

Pick any Brawl character and give them this and you'll be feeling fear... oh wait
(And )

But yeah, in terms of numbers only, Falcon must be close to the most buffed character in this game. Like, I know bowser exists, but eh.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Also, side note, can we stop comparing characters to their Brawl/Melee counterparts in this in an effort to get an idea of their viability in Smash 4?

I mean like, this is Smash 4, not Brawl, Melee, 64, or PM. Sure, someone might be better than their Brawl counterpart, but that does not mean that they are good. If everyone gets better by X amount, then no one gets better by X amount.

Really now. Puff being better than Brawl Puff does not automatically mean that Puff IS good. Let's talk about what Smash 4 Puff does well compared to things like rushdown characters, fast fallers, floaties, etc., or her matchups, and NOT how Brawl Puff is v. Brawl Diddy and how that translates to Smash 4.

Ugh.

EDIT: Note, I'm not saying we should stop talking about buffs, nerfs, etc. I'm saying we should stop making a connection of buffs, nerfs, etc. to actual viability. Like "X is a decent character in Brawl, and he got a little added here and there, so he is a good character now!" sort of stuff.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The point is, people who believed Jigglypuff was magically bad in Brawl don't know what they're talking about, because that's a very VERY inconsistent and BAD analysis of tools.

Realistically, Jigglypuff was already a mostly complete character before, and any buffs she got from there were guaranteed to make her insane. The main nerf to the character is she doesn't stall out games quite as viably, but her neutral, which was already very good, got WAY more threatening.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

The point is, people who believed Jigglypuff was magically bad in Brawl don't know what they're talking about, because that's a very VERY inconsistent and BAD analysis of tools.

Realistically, Jigglypuff was already a mostly complete character before, and any buffs she got from there were guaranteed to make her insane.

Okay? I still don't see what that means for this game.

Everyone got new tools, new tools as a whole (newcomers) were added. This changes everything. Just because I can't SHL with Falco anymore doesn't mean Falco is bad (Note, Melee Falco main here and I love playing both incredibly different versions who are both very solid.)

Stop saying that because characters got better that they are good. Let's keep things contained here.

EDIT: Also.... 3k post in the thread HYPE