Character Competitive Impressions

[mimgrim]

Okay, time for bias-mobile 101 being used as the basis for debate. Bare with me.
This is a personal list of 15 characters in this game which I feel are either very strong, have polarising (or new mechanics we haven't learned to deal with) match up strengths or are seemingly popular/common in tournament thus far (or some combination of all three).

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Phew, that was really hard. I know some common popular picks like Greninja and Fox are not there, and as many people know from my opinions I think etc are all good and feasibly top 15. But that doesn't matter.
Wait.. why over Fox? Have you seen his reflector? Shuts down several characters in the cast to possibly hard-counter levels with just a single move (Olimar especially, Villager). If you're a character with a projectile reliant game, I wouldn't be surprised if you struggle dealing with him.
is all new jank, and it was hard for me to think whether or not Duck Hunt kinda takes his cake in terms of relevancy. Both feel like they've dropped off the Earth tournament wise other than first week impressions.

Otherwise, let's not argue too much about that 15 if we can avoid it. I think it's pretty diverse in covering a lot of things.

So, how do you think about your character in relation to the above 15?

I could pick a name out of the hat if you'd like, if we all try go through the door at the same time, things could be bad.

If I actually had a character, I would answer. But I'm still messing around with them all and still don't have much of an idea of who I am going to play in this game.

And boring.

So one perspective I've been adopting is thinking in terms of moves with character bodies attacked. Metaknight was actually a glide, a tornado, a shuttle loop attached to a kirby. Shaya brought up Dancing Blade is a top 5 Brawl move. I was curious if people had other top move contenders in this game.

I was thinking:

Luma Shot
Timber
KO Punch
Needles
Aura Sphere

Super Speed.

The move is just cray cray.

I seriously don't get the underrating Palutena keeps on getting tbh. Even ignoring her custom moves she is still a good character. One of the best grab games in the game, one of the best Jabs, extremely good set of aerials, can beat out any attack with Dash Attack or Bair, good mobility, she is good at making walls, and Usmash is an insane anti-air option. Even her default Special have some nice quirks to them. Auto Reticle has absurd range, verticle distance is super insane and horizontal distance is a little over half of FD, Reflect is one of the best reflectors in the game most likely (it's pretty big, moves foward, lasts a fair amount of time, and will slow down characters/stop them from moving), Wrap is an excellent recovery with great distance both vertically and horizontally while being a good juggle escape. Factor in custom moves though. She gets Explosive Flame which ignores shield, Super Speed which increases her options to an amazing amount, Jump Glide or Rocket jump which are both just as solid as wrap in their own right, and Lightweight or Celestial Firework with the first making her already good mobility even better and gives her even better follow-ups out of throws and the latter has intangibility at start-up.

 

[thesage]

Let me talk about Ness since there hasn't been that much discussion. (as I'm writing this I'm seeing more people talking about him lololol)

I'll just go over his moves first:

First the specials:
Normal pkt is probably going to be the one chosen the most. It's good for juggling, ok recovery, and can kill if you are good at setting up land traps. You can also semi combo into pkt2. Lucas' pkt is good for edgeguarding as well as the best recovery. Super useful in the Rosalina matchup. Rolling pkt is the most troll move. You can somewhat juggle with it, but only if your opponent is super floaty, and pkt2 kills super early. Recovery is pretty bad.

Normal pk fire can be gotten out of by jumping, footstooling Ness when he comes for a followup, jabbing Ness when he comes for a followup, countered, etc. Ness can read what the opponent is going to do and punish accordingly, but I still think it's a bit risky. Lucas' pk fire is great for spacing and edgegurading. It actually can kill if fresh around 140% from the center of the stage. It's really hard to space this with 3ds controls though. The other pk fire has a LOT of hitstun and damage, but really risky to use. High risk high reward move, but I think his f-smash already covers this kind of move. I think it's range and the fact that it's not safe on shield makes this a bad move to use. Might be useful in the Rosalina matchup since it's the delete Luma button. I think Lucas' pk fire will be the go to move except for normal pk fire in certain matchups (Charizard?).

Lucas' psi magnet is 100% better than the default. Vacuum psi magnet might be useful in techchases, but Ness has better options anyways so I never use it.

Pk freeze is bad. Pk flash is a situational edgeguard. Rising pk flash might be useful against Rosalina since she likes to recover high against Ness and Ness probably will not be using default pkt for this matchup. Otherwise normal pk flash is the best.

U-smash comes out very fast (the hitbox starts immediately after the charging animation while the yoyo is still in his hands) and sets up for juggles. It has a lot of endlag, can clank with aerials like in brawl still (wtf sakuraiiii), and is not safe on shields unfortunately.
F-smash kills early, but is slow and has no range.
I suck at using d-smashes in this game since I am used to crouch canceling them. It sends out at a near horizontal angle, but has a lot of endlag.

D-tilt can trip, but has almost no range. F-tilt is a quick gtfo tool. Utilt is anti aerial and sets up into aerials nicely, doesn't hit grounded opponents though.

His aerials are all pretty good. Uair is good for juggles and killing, and has a better animation than brawl. Fair is good for combos and spacing, but is NOT SAFE ON SHIELDS AT ALL. Nair is quick, decent knockback, and good priority. Bair is fast, can ko, and has decent range. Dair is slow but has really good range for a meteor.

His grab game is good. B-throw for killing. U-throw to set up juggles. D-throw to set up combos/traps. F-throw for setting up edgeguards (RIP Little Mac).

Also I expect him to improve with the Wii U version since aiming pkt is a HUGE ***** with the 3ds. Like you have no idea how much harder it is.

Shiek and Greninja will probably cause some problems due to their projectiles, speed, range, and edeguarding. Neither of these characters can be effectively pkt juggled due to their dairs, so taking Lucas' pkt is probably a good option here. Lucas' pk fire is also a good choice to help with spacing (plus Greninja has a counter...).

Little Mac is easy for Ness. F-throw sets up edgeguards amazingly. Two pkts remove Little Macs Ko punch.

Have yet to play against a good Bowser or the Miis.

Zamus may also cause problems, but I feel like she genuinely has a very hard time landing a kill move on Ness.

Ness destroys Samus and Luigi with pkt juggles; this has been a factor in these matchups since melee, but now that Ness is actually a complete character these matchups are harshly in his favor.

I really don't want to comment on any more matchups since I either don't have that much experience, or I think certain custom moves would change the matchup significantly (DK sez hi).

I do like the fact that Ness flows together. He has nice options in midrange, close range, and even from a distance. He's good at setting up juggles (all of his up moves, u-throw, dash attack), continuing them, and ending them. You can even do fancy frame traps into pkt2 since it's easier to punish landing lag in this game. His b-throw is a solid ko option. Sh double nairs are good at shield pressure. Fair can set up some nice combos and edgeguards. He has some pretty solid edgeguarding tools at well. You can outplay people trying to cheese his recovery, or pick Lucas' pkt, and/or blast yourself into the side of the stage to get another chance to recover. Ness just flows really nicely and has decent options for every situation. I don't see him as a TOP tier, but he has enough options that unless another thing like infinite grab specific to him is discovered that he could be viable for tournaments. Nakat has been doing a good job at demonstrating that. Fow has beaten some high level streamers.

 

[deepseadiva]

I seriously don't get the underrating Palutena keeps on getting tbh.

Like five people here play something else besides For Glory.

 

[thesage]

Like five people here play something else besides For Glory.

Allisbrawl ladder is where it's at.

 

[deepseadiva]

Allisbrawl ladder is where it's at.

How is THAT going really? Online in this game is a lot more legit.

It'd definitely be really interesting to see win data from that.

 

[mimgrim]

Like five people here play something else besides For Glory.

Even limited to default set I don't get why she is still so underrated. I just don't see how a character with a great Jab, grab game, aerials, and mobility makes a bad character. Not to mention she is able to beat out any attack with 2 of her attacks. I just don't see it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well for Yoshi Id currently say:

< : Yoshi pretty much straight up outclasses Bowser in every situation
> : A close MU, but Diddy just has a better combo game, stronger set ups, and his naners are still great at neutral with high pay off. Side/Up b also make it hard to keep the pressure on in some situations.
< : Eggs and mobility are a bit too much for DH imo. Probably a solid +1 for the dino.
< : Our mobility and egg lay mix ups generally trump his footsies and Yoshi's OoS options are great in this MU. Prob like a +1 Yoshi
< : Yoshi's mobility, egg lay, and great neutral game allow him to contend with Mac onstage, and Yoshi kinda bodies Mac when he gets momentum. +1 or +1.5 Yoshi.
> : Could be even, but Yoshi's lack of kill options tend to make Lucario just straight up ridiculous lol.
? : Never played against one, but I feel like its probably even.
= : Ah, the classic Yoshi v Ness match up, practically the same its always been, just Ness got better combos and a better grab release, and Yoshi got a better shield. The neutral game is slightly in Yoshi's favor, the combo/juggling game is pretty even since Ness can combo Yoshi for tons of damage, and Yoshi can juggle Ness pretty well, but Ness kills WAY easier than Yoshi, and much earlier too.
< : Robin is just too slow and eggs + mobility is too much for him.
< : Yoshi's neutral game is better, Yoshi can easily handle Luma with tons of aerials that put him into tumble and top notch mobility, and Rosy's floatiness makes her easy to juggle and find kills on. Probably Rosy's hardest match up in the game actually.
> : Needles wreck our neutral and we just cant kill her.
= : One of the few characters who can consistently punish our landings, but we're also one of the best characters at punishing his landings. Literally one of the most ridiculous match ups in the game with full stage punishes from both sides for days.
< : Villager's keepaway doesnt work well and Yoshi's egg lay outranges most of his shenanigans.
> : Joshy wins
> : Hard for Yoshi to catch/juggle and punishes Yoshi well. Not a horrible match up, its actually really close, but ZSS has too much speed and has better traps.

 

[Kofu]

I don't really use Palutena but I do have this to offer. A prominent Ganon (I think it was @ Ray_Kalm ) mentioned that Palutena was the same character archetype as him. I don't completely see it but I assume that he means that, like Ganon, she can capitalize off of mistakes and openings I'm the opponent's game very and dangerously well with damage strings and big (?) hitboxes. Several of her ground moves are slow like his, too, but I don't think that's what he meant.

I think Palutena is a much better character than Ganon, by the way since she actually has mobility (among other things).

 

[KevJames]

Although Palutena does have mobility, I feel that the early metagame is focused a lot on footsies and whoever can hit the other first after a spotdodge/roll/airdodge to the ground. Good footsies involves good tilts, which Palutena does not have. Sure, she has her ridiculously fast jab, but people will realize that its probably her only quick ground option out of pressure and adapt around that.

 

[Shaya]

Well for Yoshi Id currently say:

< : Yoshi pretty much straight up outclasses Bowser in every situation
> : A close MU, but Diddy just has a better combo game, stronger set ups, and his naners are still great at neutral with high pay off. Side/Up b also make it hard to keep the pressure on in some situations.
< : Eggs and mobility are a bit too much for DH imo. Probably a solid +1 for the dino.
< : Our mobility and egg lay mix ups generally trump his footsies and Yoshi's OoS options are great in this MU. Prob like a +1 Yoshi
< : Yoshi's mobility, egg lay, and great neutral game allow him to contend with Mac onstage, and Yoshi kinda bodies Mac when he gets momentum. +1 or +1.5 Yoshi.
> : Could be even, but Yoshi's lack of kill options tend to make Lucario just straight up ridiculous lol.
? : Never played against one, but I feel like its probably even.
= : Ah, the classic Yoshi v Ness match up, practically the same its always been, just Ness got better combos and a better grab release, and Yoshi got a better shield. The neutral game is slightly in Yoshi's favor, the combo/juggling game is pretty even since Ness can combo Yoshi for tons of damage, and Yoshi can juggle Ness pretty well, but Ness kills WAY easier than Yoshi, and much earlier too.
< : Robin is just too slow and eggs + mobility is too much for him.
< : Yoshi's neutral game is better, Yoshi can easily handle Luma with tons of aerials that put him into tumble and top notch mobility, and Rosy's floatiness makes her easy to juggle and find kills on. Probably Rosy's hardest match up in the game actually.
> : Needles wreck our neutral and we just cant kill her.
= : One of the few characters who can consistently punish our landings, but we're also one of the best characters at punishing his landings. Literally one of the most ridiculous match ups in the game with full stage punishes from both sides for days.
< : Villager's keepaway doesnt work well and Yoshi's egg lay outranges most of his shenanigans.
> : Joshy wins
> : Hard for Yoshi to catch/juggle and punishes Yoshi well. Not a horrible match up, its actually really close, but ZSS has too much speed and has better traps.

So you think Yoshi loses to ZSS, Sheik, Lucario, Diddy. Even with Ness and Sonic?
I'm honestly not certain Yoshi beats Falco this game. Not sure how well he deals with void reflector as a massive transcended priority poke, but you could be very right about the OoS options.
In short, this character's only threats are other top tier characters?

 

[HiNiTe]

It's really hard to discuss about because she is seriously hindered by the 3DS. It's no doubt, she practically needs a C-Stick. Spacing aerials and using Pound diagonally is essential to her game. But her buffs are observable at least.

And yeah I have to agree that 's hardest matchup would have to be , but it's not totally out of her favor since we all know she has an incredible amount of tools.

 

[Z'zgashi]

In short, this character's only threats are other top tier characters?

 

[Signia]

Who is actually considered to be good at killing? Every character is being said to have trouble finishing off opponents, including the top tier favorites. I feel like that's something important that we're overlooking. Who actually has kill power that's either super strong or really safe?

./

 

[Z'zgashi]

Who is actually considered to be good at killing?

 

[Sinister Slush]

So you think Yoshi loses to ZSS, Sheik, Lucario, Diddy. Even with Ness and Sonic?
I'm honestly not certain Yoshi beats Falco this game. Not sure how well he deals with void reflector as a massive transcended priority poke, but you could be very right about the OoS options.
In short, this character's only threats are other top tier characters?

Almost the entire reason Falco destroyed Yoshi in brawl was because no OoS options, phantasm, his great aerials, and Jab.

We have OoS options, but since I do not own the game yet I have no idea on many characters core or even minor changes outside of tidbits I've been hearing the past couple months. Unfortunately Falco is one of those characters I not only heard nothing of but isn't brought up much in this thread.

 

[DanGR]

Falco is pretty garbz, imo. Maybe he can fare decently well against most the cast, as some people would argue- I don't think so- but even then he doesn't have anything that really stands out to me as a legitimate reason to play him at a competitive level over other similar, better characters. Does he win any matchups that sheik doesn't also win? What's his niche? Is there any point in using him besides liking his personality or some ****?

edit: seems I need some Shaya educatin.

 

[Shaya]

My dirty little favourite kill set up for Marth is jab them on the ledge get up and then due to not being able to grab the ledge during hit stun like in previous games, FORWARD SMASHHHHHHHHH TIPPAR.

Falco is slowly but surely growing on me as an all-around good to great character with perhaps only a deficiency against Rosalina. Every thing else tough in this game is either negated heavily by the reflector (9% 4 swords length transcended priority lolmove that deletes things) or as I'm slowly learning, is really really easy to combo into a kill move with like zillion different moves (every day it's like +1 "oh so at this percent, this leads perfectly into full hop back air or up air and they die to it, LEL LELLEL"). Today it was side b being legit combo fodder on anyone towards the end hitbox of it from 80%+ onwards. You have to start being careful about certain moves leading into kills against Falco as low as 60%.

So yeah, my general thoughts on Falco are
"when does the kill set ups ever stop?". I can't believe my early impressions of this ****** was "pretty good moves that can do things, but doesn't have the gel nor capabilities, heavily held back by being unable to get the kill, much like in Brawl". Which then turned into "pretty good, but has issues with some rush down characters (who lol, cannot kill) but has really solid damage plus true combo kill set ups, I'm starting to think he'll be almost like Melee-Marth level of percent-centric game play and importance".

Into... now. I probably have more issues with Palutena (super speed with invincibility moves is pretty balanced when you also have the best grab range and best grab game) on Falco than I do ... every currently perceived top tier bar Rosa. The real question I'm starting to wonder is, who shouldn't I be using Falco against in this game? I know there are more, this character isn't balls-to-the-walls amazing, but there is a lot of magic to be had here that I'm yet to see on that many other characters.
#AnotherDecadeOfSpacieDominancePlease

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So yeah, my general thoughts on Falco are
"when does the kill set ups ever stop?". I can't believe my early impressions of this ****er was "pretty good moves that can do things, but doesn't have the gel nor capabilities, heavily held back by being unable to get the kill, much like in Brawl". Which then turned into "pretty good, but has issues with some rush down characters (who lol, cannot kill) but has really solid damage plus true combo kill set ups, I'm starting to think he'll be almost like Melee-Marth level of percent-centric game play and importance".

Into... now. I probably have more issues with Palutena (super speed with invincibility moves is pretty balanced when you also have the best grab range and best grab game) on Falco than I do ... every currently perceived top tier bar Rosa. The real question I'm starting to wonder is, who shouldn't I be using Falco against in this game? I know there are more, this character isn't just balls-to-the-walls amazing, but there is a lot of magic to be had here that I'm yet to see on that many other characters.
#AnotherDecadeOfSpacieDominancePlease

Duh, Falco is way underrated. Shaya please start listening to me more with regards to character balance, you might learn something

#shotsfired

#<3

#(pleasedontwarnme)

On a serious note, the only two characters I am reasonably sure will be top tier in a year are Sheik and Diddy. Rosalina and Greninja are relying right now on people not knowing the optimal way to approach the match-ups and are getting away with a ton of nonsense. I am more confident in Rosalina's long-term viability than Greninja's. ZSS has a lot of problems and I think she has been significantly overrated by everybody now, myself included. But it is possible that the GC controller will give ZSS players the precision they need to avoid trades and actually you know, use back air, which is so, so hard to use on the 3DS.

Also? Heavy characters are super dumb in Smash 4. They kill early, never die, trade for days, and have a million safe moves on the ground. Oh you tried to punish my fully charged whiffed/blocked fsmash? LOL np ftilt ECKS DEE xDDD. Ganon, Zard, Dedede, DK, you name it, all of them are really difficult to play against. You'll have a 60% dominating lead, take a few hits and end up off-stage near the blast-zone wondering what the **** just happened.

 

[thesage]

Also? Heavy characters are super dumb in Smash 4. They kill early, never die, trade for days, and have a million safe moves on the ground. Oh you tried to punish my fully charged whiffed/blocked fsmash? LOL np ftilt ECKS DEE xDDD. Ganon, Zard, Dedede, DK, you name it, all of them are really difficult to play against. You'll have a 60% dominating lead, take a few hits and end up off-stage near the blast-zone wondering what the **** just happened.

The rage mechanic makes this an even bigger problem than before. Characters that can confirm kills will probably shoot up the tier list. This is why I don't think Zamus will be top tier.

Can we talk about Shiek? I honestly don't see what she cannot do, it seems like she has an amazing answer for everything. She has some issues killing, but her edgeguarding is so good, and bouncing fish is really dumb. Is bouncing fish really safe on shields? Does this mean we should side step it like Diddy's side-b?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Mii Brawler and Lucario have plenty of killing power.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

top 10 in no particular order imo:

I think Wario or Greninja should be up there ... maybe even both. Wario is pretty stupid.

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For Fox:

- solid advantage. Nair is really good in this matchup because it can hit Bowser's massive hitbox from all sorts of janky angles and lead into Fox' bread and butter combos from like any %. Basically everything Fox can do to deal massive amounts of damage will probably work against Bowser. Fox has pretty reliable kill options making rage something that Fox isn't something that you will see a good Fox fall prey to a lot. I think rage is kinda huge for Bowser [if not ultimately his saving grace] because he can get some fraudulent kills out of nowhere. Fox has pretty solid control against that though.

- even matchup imo. Diddy has lost a lot of his horizontal zoning capabilities that made the matchup difficult for Fox in Brawl. With bananas nerfed and Fox' sideB receiving a solid buff, Diddy cannot simply overwhelm Fox or force him to play Diddy's game. Diddy does a lot of horizontal zoning now, something Fox really shines in [the pun though!]. Fox can compete with the new design of Diddy Kong on even terms in pretty much every situation and their overall strengths and weaknesses in neutral, advantaged and disadvantaged position seem to be fairly equal.

- looks kinda bad for Falco from my experience [I play both characters and have played the matchup from either side]. Falco lacks the mixup options in close range to really threaten Fox with his footsie game, especially since Fox' escape options are better than Falco's like all across the board. Better damage output, better kill power and a similar but almost globally better movepool with overall better character attributes for Fox make this matchup look solidly in Fox' favor

- though Lucario's gameplay changed a good bit from Brawl Fox can play it in a somewhat similar fashion. That's not to say that it's still as solidly in Fox' favor as it used to be but Fox still wants to use his projectiles and shine in tandem with solid shield pressure as Lucario still lacks dangerous OoS options. And Fox ability to get the kill at the right time can make live hard for Lucario. At the same time, Lucario's improved keepaway game makes live harder for Fox as well. I'm not sure if it's even or possibly in Fox favor by a small bit but I definitely think Fox is one of the most consistent characters to deal with Lucario.

- right now, I'd have to say it's a slight advantage for Rosie just because the character naturally seems very overpowering. I can't really go into more detail than that right now because both the Rosalina as well as the anti-Rosalina metagame needs to envolve.

- even. TKD speculated on this matchup possibly being in Fox' favor because she struggles at getting the KO and it seems like Fox may have a handful of offstage shenanigans that could work. But in the end Fox and Sheik look like characters that can do pretty much the same stuff to each other and lead to the same results. Seems pretty much completely skill based between them two.

- Sonic wins this one I think. Nair and autojab don't consistently beat spindash anymore and with the increased lag on lasers we don't really have a straight answer to Sonic's approaching abilities. It's a mix of good spacing and making use of Fox' mobility that allows him to still deal with it though, it's just more difficult and risky now. Being able to kill out of grabs is always hard to deal with but I think the one thing that makes this matchup really hard for Fox is Sonic's ability to escape the traps and follow-ups that Fox needs to unleash his damage output.

- after playing against the best Villager in Europe a couple of times I think Fox wins this matchup. It's a bit annoying because playing against the Villager is like having to destroy a damn brickwall. Patience - vast amounts of patience - is what you need to beat him. Villager's ability to reset to neutral is just silly and lame but you gotta get used to it if you want to win it. It's more effective than it seems. You can kinda give him a taste of his own medicine if you get a lead and start to reflect and shield all the **** he throws at you while he genereally fails at approaching.

- Yoshi is the one stupid character in this game that does a lot of things better than Fox and none of them worse. Breaking defenses and getting in on your opponent? Yoshi does it just as well as Fox does. Getting reliable kill set-ups? Yoshi does it just as well as Fox does. Grab game? Yoshi is better. Offstage game and gimps? Yoshi is better. Midrange zoning? Yoshi is better. This character can just do whatever Fox does and it goes to show in the direct matchup which I think Yoshi solidly wins so far. I've made only bad experiences at it.

- could be even or could be slightly in Fox' favor. Imagine the ZSS vs Fox matchup in Brawl except without the dsmash shenanigans and you're somewhat close to how the matchup works now. There really isn't anything too deep or complex about it, it just seems a bit like ZSS' punish game isn't as potentially devastating anymore. Other than that the matchup doesn't feel like it has changed all that much.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Also? Heavy characters are super dumb in Smash 4. They kill early, never die, trade for days, and have a million safe moves on the ground. Oh you tried to punish my fully charged whiffed/blocked fsmash? LOL np ftilt ECKS DEE xDDD. Ganon, Zard, Dedede, DK, you name it, all of them are really difficult to play against. You'll have a 60% dominating lead, take a few hits and end up off-stage near the blast-zone wondering what the **** just happened.

This is always the most fun part about playing heavys IMO. No matter how much damage you take all you need is a few solid reads to turn the tide, and nobody benefits from the rage mechanic more unless your name is lucario.

There's no greater feeling of being at 150+% and killing your opponent at 60% with a well placed fsmash. <3

 

[Jabejazz]

Also? Heavy characters are super dumb in Smash 4. They kill early, never die, trade for days, and have a million safe moves on the ground. Oh you tried to punish my fully charged whiffed/blocked fsmash? LOL np ftilt ECKS DEE xDDD. Ganon, Zard, Dedede, DK, you name it, all of them are really difficult to play against. You'll have a 60% dominating lead, take a few hits and end up off-stage near the blast-zone wondering what the **** just happened.

Your mad is showing.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Well since nobody else will do Pac, I will attempt to. Most of my experience is on For Glory. I have a few friends that main a couple of these characters so I know more about these matchups than others, however, I'm not gonna say these guys are pros by any means and nor am I. I also have practically no experience with customs due to the fact I a) haven't unlocked them all and b) am trying to just get the hang of the base character before I look at the 60 or so different combinations of special moves.

So for the ones I have played outside of FG

>> Wow, this matchup just hurts. I have tried a variety of stages and none of them seem to make it any less painful. I cannot consider any way of possibly overcoming this MU without just purely being a large margin better than the opponent. Eggs neutralise the hydrant and bonus fruit, ground pound is quick and basically punishes you for hitting Yoshi into the air and his attacks are all so quick. Practically unwinnable.
< Neither my friends Diddy, nor any FG Diddy has given me any trouble. Even if its close, I still feel utterly in control with this matchup. Sure Diddy has good range, aerials and decent killing power but he just doesn't strike me as unpredictable and as such, I never feel like I am about to lose. I honestly cannot understand the big deal about him being top tier tbh. Although, I havent really played against him with anyone else so I guess I cant really say.
≥ Fairly even MU I would say, maybe slightly in Ness' favour. Ness can combo really well and punish hard, however, some of Pac's moves can be hard for Ness to deal with. It's hard to really say too much about this matchup without playing actually, it just feels kinda even.
< Falco struggles against Pac simply due to Pac's aerial mobility. Orange also goes straight through the laser which basically means that Falco cannot spam his laser too much. Deflector can be nicely baited and punished with key and I just don't see anywhere that Falco beats Pac. Not that it is unwinnable though, Falco is still able to punish Pac well if he whiffs a laggy move. Plus his smashes are all much faster than Pac's in terms of start up
> Phew this is hard work. I have come close to beating my friends Rosalina and Luma twice, but the matches drag on ridiculously (A 3-stock match lasted over 10 minutes). The key to this MU with Pac is being 110% careful and never over-committing. Camping is basically a necessity and is the only way to come even close to winning. Definitely not unwinnable like Yoshi, but you have to play a near-perfect game to come close to winning.

Basically FG only

≤ I would say this matchup is in Pac's favour simply because of the bonus fruit. Orange is handy in this MU and melon and key have pretty insane priority which can help too. Obviously the only thing holding Pac back in this MU is Bowsers shear power. His punishing ability is amazing so you have to be on your toes, however I think Pac wins it. Just.
< As long as you don't get caught in a bad spot with the hydrant, this MU is pretty good for Pac. Bonus fruit are really good in this MU once again and Power Pellet is great for gimping Mac. Like Bowser, Mac has amazing punishes, however, his gimpability is just so much higher so I feel this is a better for Pac.
≤ Again, have not had as much trouble in this matchup as others seem to. As such, I am a little bit confused as to why people rate her so highly but I just never seem to have too much trouble against Sheik. If I need to charge bonus fruit, I just go outside the range of her needles. Pac's ftilt comes out pretty quickly and his dash is great. Obviously Sheik has combos and is quite fast, but I still have not lost to as many Sheiks as I would have expected given how highly she is rated. Would say slightly in Pac's favour based on my XP.
/? I have played this MU a bit, and on a flat stage it can be painful simply because of Lloid spam. I think I have developed an answer to it, however, I have stayed away from FG lately and don't really know any Villager mains.
< Pac is great at punishing Lucario and the few I have played I have not had too much trouble with. I do realise his aura mechanic is super important this time around, but that doesn't excuse how slow his dash is. Pac is just too quick on the ground and in the air for Lucario to hit him too much. Add in the fact Bonus Fruit can just absorb the aura sphere, I cannot see Lucario having an advantage here.
> ZSS just has too much speed for Pac to deal with. Despite Pac having quick attacks himself, Zamus can just do it so much better. Have not beaten too many Zamuses but I usually come close. Definitely in her favour but not horrible by any stretch.
= Insanely fun matchup that I find to be very even. Sonic is incredibly quick and in your face whereas Pac likes to control the stage and kind of ambles around, for want of a better word. Like a clashing of opposing playstyles really. As such, I would say its fairly even as I have won and lost games against Sonics. He does struggle to kill Pac which is exploitable, however, it can equally be hard to land Pac's killers on Sonic. Landing lag punishing is pretty much the go to. I would say even as Sonic's speed can be very overwhelming and he does have some nice combos.

Have not played enough to know but will give impressions based on playtime with the characters.

> Zoning game will be too strong for Pac to deal with. Zipping in between all the projectiles will be tough. Pac is better in the air though so he has that advantage, but I cannot see this going too well for the yellow guy.
< I haven't played against a Mii Gunner but I have played as one a fair bit and I do not rate it at all. It is so hard to recover and landing a hit can prove challenging at times. I am sure this will be more than accentuated by the fact that Pac is fast in the air.
/< I haven't played against any Robins at all really. I have to say though, I cannot imagine this match would go down too well for them. Robin is so slow on the ground I cannot imagine them being able to overcome Pac-Man's jab, tilts and dash attacks.

I am happy to discuss these with any of you, of course. I am probably totally wrong, I mean I am not fantastic at this game, but I am pretty dedicated with my Pac and I really feel I understand the character's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Jahordon]

Maybe I'm just a bad player, but I've been winning a lot less with Diddy now that opponents know to spot dodge bananas and his monkey flip. With those two options pretty easily averted, Diddy feels a lot less threatening. I still think he's a good character, but not in the top 5 like some people were claiming.

I think Yoshi is absolutely nuts. Lives forever, combos well, kills early, has a great projectile, and has probably the best MU against the character everybody thinks is the best in the game (Rosalina).

 

[SonicZeroX]

So since we seem to be taking custom moves into account now, can we talk about DK? DK without custom moves seems like a pretty good character with some standout weaknesses but with custom moves EVERYTHING CHANGES.

Kong Cyclone is like Metaknight's tornado BUT EVEN BETTER IN EVERY WAY. Metaknight's tornado is safe and can rack up damage, but it didn't kill and if you were good enough you could still hit him out of it.

Kong Cyclone meanwhile:
Has full super armor so you can't hit him out of it. (unless it's actually heavy armor I haven't tested it that much)
Is completely safe on stages with platforms. No landing lag whatsoever if you land on a platform. You also fly around with it like MetaTornado so it's just super safe.
Has a windbox that sucks you in. This combined with the armor lets it beat out pretty much everything from spotdodges to rolls to airdodges to attacks.
It KILLS even when stale. This is the most ridiculous thing. Not only can you use it to rack up damage, even after spamming it a hundred times staleing it to death IT CAN STILL KILL.

It's still early so maybe there's some form of counterplay, but otherwise this may be the single most powerful move in the game. It. does. everything. It's offensive, it's defensive, it racks up damage, and it kills. At least 100% spamming tornado with Metaknight is still gimmicky and can be beaten, with DK it seems like a fully legitimate strategy.

It's worth noting that it loses a lot of usefulness on platformless stages like FD, but because of how competitive stage picking works you can easily play around that.

 

[Conda]

So since we seem to be taking custom moves into account now, can we talk about DK? DK without custom moves seems like a pretty good character with some standout weaknesses but with custom moves EVERYTHING CHANGES.

Kong Cyclone is like Metaknight's tornado BUT EVEN BETTER IN EVERY WAY. Metaknight's tornado is safe and can rack up damage, but it didn't kill and if you were good enough you could still hit him out of it.

Kong Cyclone meanwhile:
Has full super armor so you can't hit him out of it. (unless it's actually heavy armor I haven't tested it that much)
Is completely safe on stages with platforms. No landing lag whatsoever if you land on a platform. You also fly around with it like MetaTornado so it's just super safe.
Has a windbox that sucks you in. This combined with the armor lets it beat out pretty much everything from spotdodges to rolls to airdodges to attacks.
It KILLS even when stale. This is the most ridiculous thing. Not only can you use it to rack up damage, even after spamming it a hundred times staleing it to death IT CAN STILL KILL.

It's still early so maybe there's some form of counterplay, but otherwise this may be the single most powerful move in the game. It. does. everything. It's offensive, it's defensive, it racks up damage, and it kills. At least 100% spamming tornado with Metaknight is still gimmicky and can be beaten, with DK it seems like a fully legitimate strategy.

It's worth noting that it loses a lot of usefulness on platformless stages like FD, but because of how competitive stage picking works you can easily play around that.

If we are only ever going to talk about a character and their custom moves because they showed up on a live stream recently, then this discussion is going to continue moving and evolving slowly.

But yes, DK is one of the many characters who are actually awesome that we are for some reason completely ignoring.

 

[Remzi]

On a serious note, the only two characters I am reasonably sure will be top tier in a year are Sheik and Diddy. Rosalina and Greninja are relying right now on people not knowing the optimal way to approach the match-ups and are getting away with a ton of nonsense. I am more confident in Rosalina's long-term viability than Greninja's. ZSS has a lot of problems and I think she has been significantly overrated by everybody now, myself included. But it is possible that the GC controller will give ZSS players the precision they need to avoid trades and actually you know, use back air, which is so, so hard to use on the 3DS.

Being able to space bairs is THE reason I'm not concerned with ZSS falling out of top tier. Her shield pressure goes to another level once we can use bair on shield safely.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I thought this might be a really perfect place to share this. On /r/smashbros we did an "Upvote/Downvote Tier List" where people could upvote characters they thought were good and downvote those they thought were bad while discussing all of the characters. If that isn't a huge list of impressions on competitive characters I don't know what is!

We plan on doing one of these each month to see how competitive impressions of characters change over time as well, this should be a cool scientific experiment of sorts. Here are our results for this month:

Spoiler

Remember this is obviously not a perfect tier list by any means. This was just a way to rank and discuss the characters in an interesting setting. We're hoping to do this each month and get people's impressions of characters over time. Consider it a cool way to watch our game develop month to month.

If you want to see the thread that inspired this check it out.

 

[kackamee]

Okay, time for bias-mobile 101 being used as the basis for debate. Bare with me.
This is a personal list of 15 characters in this game which I feel are either very strong, have polarising (or new mechanics we haven't learned to deal with) match up strengths or are seemingly popular/common in tournament thus far (or some combination of all three).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Phew, that was really hard. I know some common popular picks like Greninja and Fox are not there, and as many people know from my opinions I think etc are all good and feasibly top 15. But that doesn't matter.
Wait.. why over Fox? Have you seen his reflector? Shuts down several characters in the cast to possibly hard-counter levels with just a single move (Olimar especially, Villager). If you're a character with a projectile reliant game, I wouldn't be surprised if you struggle dealing with him.
is all new jank, and it was hard for me to think whether or not Duck Hunt kinda takes his cake in terms of relevancy. Both feel like they've dropped off the Earth tournament wise other than first week impressions.

Otherwise, let's not argue too much about that 15 if we can avoid it. I think it's pretty diverse in covering a lot of things.

So, how do you think about your character in relation to the above 15?

I could pick a name out of the hat if you'd like, if we all try go through the door at the same time, things could be bad.

What makes Pikachu closer to top 15 than Mario to you? I haven't seen as much Pikachu play but to me it seems Mario has just as much combo potential, slightly better ranged aerials, and easier to land kill moves, in exchange for a slightly worse recovery and projectile.

Also why Mii Gunner? What tools does it have to make it top 15? I haven't come across any Gunners at all, so I honestly have no idea.

My opinions on in relation to the characters you listed:

Metaknight is one of the few characters I actually think is low tier. His kill moves have pretty long startup (except shuttle loop), his range is pretty bad, his attacks do very little %, and he's really light. He's definitely not helpless though, he can still apply good pressure, he's extremely quick, and having 6 jumps makes him still one of the best offstage fighters in the game. I find that a lot of matchups with MK require you to look for a good way to get your opponent offstage for a potential gimp, or to at least rack up as much damage as you can before getting them back on stage.

I personally don't think many characters actually fall into anything below mid tier yet, save for a few including MK. That being said, I do think MK has some strangely favorable matchups against some of the cast.

> :
Bowser just has too much range on MK. He can out range him with tilts, aerials and smashes. MK has to work really hard to get in on Bowser and will get punished extremely hard for any missed attempts. Tornado is good for reading rolls, but if you fail to hit, it is a free F-tilt (sometimes an F-Smash if bowser is close/fast enough) for Bowser.
MK's kill moves are too unsafe to use against Bowser, so I feel the best way to kill him is through gimping, which can actually be quite hard with the range nerfs on his aerials.

> :
I only feel that Diddy slightly wins this matchup. He has slightly better maneuverability in the air than MK and his F-air and B-air are a bit quicker and farther reaching. I do feel like it's easier to grab Diddy than he can grab you, due to MK's ability to stay in the air for a long amount of time. From my experience, Diddy has a hard time finishing the kill on MK, while MK can gimp Diddy relatively easily. Diddy's edge in this matchup is that he racks up damage faster and he's hard to approach for MK.

> :
Metaknight just has no way to approach. Duck Hunt can just wall him out with cans and guns and pigeons, and if MK makes it close, he has enough time to run to the other side and repeat. Tornado does go through pigeons (I think) and is effective vs the gunman, but it has too much end lag to be a proper approach on Duck Hunt. Duck Hunt is relatively easy to gimp, but getting him offstage is extremely difficult.

= :
This matchup is really fun to me. With nerfed lasers, MK's speed advantage really helps his approach. MK's dash attack and D-Throw setup for really good combo/follow up potential at all %'s on Falco. In close range, Falco can easily outpoke MK with his tilts and reflector, but it's risky for him to go air-to-air with MK. Falco also has a way easier time getting kills can MK in this matchup, but I think MK can get % on Falco quickly and cover many of his options with proper timing and F-airs.

> :
I think Little Mac is probably the best character in the game. His F-tilt is unpunishable and MK has no way to approach him and he can't force Little Mac to approach. If you can get him offstage, it's easy gimps, but grabbing Little Mac with MK is pretty hard, if he's spacing properly.

>
Lucario squashes MK like a butterfly. MK can do tons of % to Lucario, but after a while, Lucario can just space with Force Palm and Aura Sphere and MK won't be able to land a kill move at all. MK is a lot faster than Lucario which is very good in this matchup for getting through his wall, but once you're in, your kill moves have too much startup to hit, and Lucario is almost ungimpable with boosted Extremespeed.

<
MK can rush Ness down and doesn't have to be afraid of anything. Ness' F-air beats MK out in the air, but MK can out maneuver Ness' mixups I feel, and one good grab can get Ness off stage where he is easily gimped. Ness' N-air can potentially shut down most of MK's approach options, however, especially OOS. The main thing MK has to look out for is getting grabbed, but I think MK is pretty good at avoiding that in general.

> :
Robin's wall is just too solid I think. His fire + thunder + Levin aerials leave no room for MK to approach him anywhere. Robin is also really hard to gimp and he hits extremely hard. MK can apply really good pressure to Robin once he eventually gets in though, and it's hard for Robin to escape due to being pretty slow. But overall Robin can just wall out MK with ease.

= :
I know this one might seem weird, but I think MK can just rush Rosalina down. Her aerials kinda shut down an aerial approach, but they are laggy enough to be able to punish if she whiffs. MK has a pretty easy time hitting Luma away and keeping pressure on Rosalina so she can't get Luma back. The only thing is that MK has to get in A LOT. Rosalina outranges MK very easily and will often just ftilt him away and go back to the other side of the stage. She can also kill him pretty early with Luma's help, due to MK being really light, but I don't find it hard to kill Rosalina with MK either.

> :
I don't think this one needs much explanation. She's better in the air, she's better at approaching (even though she doesn't need cause of needles), she has better range, better damage, better...everything. Except recovery.

< :
I think MK out damages Sonic. I think tornado is especially good in this matchup for racking up % and apply pressure. Sonic has a really tough time landing kill moves on MK, while I think killing Sonic is not too hard. I think they are about even in the air, but if Sonic is above MK, Sonic has no great way to land without being punished. I don't think MK has much trouble avoiding getting hit by Sonic, but his Homing Attack is pretty good at catching MK in the air.

< :
To me this is a lot like Metaknight vs. Duck Hunt, except not as bad for MK. While Villager can wall him out, I think it's easier to get past Villager's wall than DH. Villager is also a bit easier to gimp, but he/she also does more damage. Villager's F-tilt is pretty godlike for poking and spacing, but toe-to-toe, MK has better tilts and pressure than Villager can avoid. Villager has a hard time killing MK as well.

> :
Yeah. Yoshi just has better everything too. His eggs make it hard to approach from the air, his aerials are quick, hard hitting, and far reaching. His tilts are just as good as his aerials. He can now jump OOS which makes it ever harder to approach him from the ground. And he's super heavy which makes it extremely hard to kill him, while Yoshi has no trouble at all killing MK.

> :
ZSS is just too quick for MK. Her aerials have too much range and speed for MK to deal with. Metaknight has a pretty tough time approaching Zamus from any angle. MK even has a hard time juggling ZSS due to her down B. MK can try to play defensive and get pokes on her to rack up %, but he'll have a hard time landing a kill move without a hard read.

I thought this might be a really perfect place to share this. On /r/smashbros we did an "Upvote/Downvote Tier List" where people could upvote characters they thought were good and downvote those they thought were bad while discussing all of the characters. If that isn't a huge list of impressions on competitive characters I don't know what is!

We plan on doing one of these each month to see how competitive impressions of characters change over time as well, this should be a cool scientific experiment of sorts. Here are our results for this month:

Spoiler

Remember this is obviously not a perfect tier list by any means. This was just a way to rank and discuss the characters in an interesting setting. We're hoping to do this each month and get people's impressions of characters over time. Consider it a cool way to watch our game develop month to month.

If you want to see the thread that inspired this check it out.

Falco, Palutena and Charizard are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too low in my opinion.
Toon Link is still better than Link, I think. ROB is too high, Megaman and Pac Man should be switched.
Kirby is too low. Marth and Shulk should be switched, Fox should be C+ tier at least I think.
Peach might be a bit too high.
This is actually kinda solid imo. I think it's not too bad of starter list.

 

[Jabejazz]

So since we seem to be taking custom moves into account now, can we talk about DK? DK without custom moves seems like a pretty good character with some standout weaknesses but with custom moves EVERYTHING CHANGES.

Yeah, his custom moves are really nothing to scoff at. Also his side B that completely wrecks shields is pretty cool.

 

[popsofctown]

I thought this might be a really perfect place to share this. On /r/smashbros we did an "Upvote/Downvote Tier List" where people could upvote characters they thought were good and downvote those they thought were bad while discussing all of the characters. If that isn't a huge list of impressions on competitive characters I don't know what is!

We plan on doing one of these each month to see how competitive impressions of characters change over time as well, this should be a cool scientific experiment of sorts. Here are our results for this month:

Spoiler

Remember this is obviously not a perfect tier list by any means. This was just a way to rank and discuss the characters in an interesting setting. We're hoping to do this each month and get people's impressions of characters over time. Consider it a cool way to watch our game develop month to month.

If you want to see the thread that inspired this check it out.

Bottom tier Mii Gunner and E tier Mii Brawler seems to show a suspicious amount of For Glory bias in the list, which would make me want to assume custom specials didn't influence the list heavily either.

 

[MisterVisceral]

Personally I'm pretty glad the heavies are getting their buff in this game. It's not to the point where an unskilled player can just choose a heavy and hand it to a skilled player playing a lightweight. Heavies just cater to a different playstyle. Some people may not be good at capitalizing on mistakes like heavy fans are, and people who use heavies may not be best at playing quickly and consistently.

I think the buffing of heavies in this game makes it balanced and allow for different ilks of players to access success.

 

[popsofctown]

I actually think the heavies seem to create a really fresh, dynamic rock-paper-scissors circle in the character roster that will make it really balanced.

Paper: Balanced character, has some big smashes and some projectiles and does pretty decently in neutral and has nice payoffs. BJr, Falcon, Marth.
Scissors: Super fast character whose mobility and projectiles are through the roof and can really dominate neutral, but only allowed to do 3% per hit and kill a toothpick. Beats balanced characters because they win interactions so consistently and that outweighs the slightly worse payoffs. Sheik, Pikachu, Greninja, Jiggs
Rock: Heavy characters with a weak neutral game and juggling ability that get huge payoffs for winning an interaction. They roughly the same number of interactions to the Scissors that the Papers do but they get such a bigger reward for that minority of the time they win an interaction that they have an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
They lose to the papers because the payoff discrepancy is much smaller but the interaction dominance is about the same.
Bowser, DK, D3


In short, I think heavies can counter nimble characters due to their ability to "give up" on winning interactions very consistently and capitalizing hard when they do.


Maybe I'm just optimistic. This wasn't really a thing in Brawl because the spritely little Scissors just got huge payoffs against the rocks from comboing them to death and gimping them, but with all the hardcoded permission-to-combo-denied stuff in this game the heavies bite back.

 

[BSP]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, how do you think about your character in relation to the above 15?

I could pick a name out of the hat if you'd like, if we all try go through the door at the same time, things could be bad.

I'd say, without a doubt, Mario's worse than everyone in that list except possibly Bowser.

MU wise, I haven't played all of them against good people, but I do think he loses to Sonic, Falco, Diddy, Lucario, Yoshi, ZSS, and possibly Ness. For everyone else, I'm either not sure or don't know enough about it to make a fair judgement.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

i dont see the rps in that fashion.
If theres an archetype advantage its in zoning/range right now, more than weight class.

 

[Conda]

I thought this might be a really perfect place to share this. On /r/smashbros we did an "Upvote/Downvote Tier List" where people could upvote characters they thought were good and downvote those they thought were bad while discussing all of the characters. If that isn't a huge list of impressions on competitive characters I don't know what is!

We plan on doing one of these each month to see how competitive impressions of characters change over time as well, this should be a cool scientific experiment of sorts. Here are our results for this month:

Spoiler

Remember this is obviously not a perfect tier list by any means. This was just a way to rank and discuss the characters in an interesting setting. We're hoping to do this each month and get people's impressions of characters over time. Consider it a cool way to watch our game develop month to month.

If you want to see the thread that inspired this check it out.

It's fun and all, but the biggest problem with meta discussion now is how blind a lot of discussion is. I never hear talk on certain amazing characters. Tunnel-vision-ing things more is a ludicroudly bad idea. 90% of people here are literally watching the 2-3 stream channels that show tournaments and are drawing their conclusions based off of them. Look above at the recent DK post to see proof.

Tournament results are important, but they're so limited now that we can't draw everything based on them. We have to be able to think a bit, now just repeat the same preconceptions.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't really use Palutena but I do have this to offer. A prominent Ganon (I think it was @ Ray_Kalm ) mentioned that Palutena was the same character archetype as him. I don't completely see it but I assume that he means that, like Ganon, she can capitalize off of mistakes and openings I'm the opponent's game very and dangerously well with damage strings and big (?) hitboxes. Several of her ground moves are slow like his, too, but I don't think that's what he meant.

I think Palutena is a much better character than Ganon, by the way since she actually has mobility (among other things).

What I meant was, Palutena has the same archtype as Ganon.

An archtype is the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based.

Palutena was based off of the archtype of Ganon. Ganon has, like many others, his own unique archetype. Captain Falcon has a different archetype than the two, but shares similar move designs as Ganondorf.

Palutena was designed off Ganondorf's model, and that model design in itself is pretty horrible.

This doesn't mean that Palutena will share Ganon's playstyle, she has different move designs and requires a different method of play, but some of her moves do function in a similar manner as Ganon's.