Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

I agree the loss of bucket breaking was big. I think Ftilt was buffed a lot to be more of the anti-zoner/wall thing, while dtilt seems to be more focused on precise poking (although it isn't as good at this as one would like).

Everyone's landing lag in the game was nerfed pretty much. I think a character who's landing lag on aerials are mostly the same from Brawl is comparatively a buff (Ike says hello).

Down Throw tech chase was kinda character dependent nonsense in some cases, and newb-destroying in other. Obviously still an amazing option, as it is a true tech chase where you have frame advantage, but some of it's "strengths" people recall I feel are cheese related rather than being real. Otherwise, new down throw is probably one of the best throws out there (Up-B out of it seems pretty guaranteed as you pointed out).

And really, Bair has no landing hitbox at all in any scenario anymore? Must be just how I time the landing usually then, as that "final turtle bite" seemed like it was still there to me in some scenarios. But I would tend not to want to land with back air in this game. It's a super horizontal disjoint move that is amazing to aim at any height of someone's body, and if they're not shorties, the situations where you can hit their shield and still be in the air/drifting during and afterwards are pretty diverse. In Brawl, G&W had the best turning aerial acceleration (i.e. best aerial weaving in the cast by A LARGE MARGIN), that strength still seems to be there, which is what makes back air as shield pressure when you maintain yourself in air as pretty reliable from experience.

Things that feel buffed to me that make G&W feel awesome are:
Forward Tilt, Jab, Up Air, forward air, chef. Up air seems to hit horizontally a lot wider than before, bucket for actual bucket usages (and the amount of aerial momentum you can shift around with the bucket is really good anti-jungle + fast positional mix up).

Things that are around the same or slightly weaker but still feel pretty great to use (properly)
Back air, neutral air
forward smash (this thing out of turns/pivots is amazing, are you sure it doesn't have more comparative range/disjoint this game than others?); the upwards angle of it is also not to be underestimated,
Up-B: Heavy custom is wet-dream material.
Up Tilt... hits twice in this (I thought it was only once in Brawl), close to the ground in front of him [in comparison to other games where it won't hit any grounded opponents ever, not reliable in that scenario though]

Now slowfall down air is "gone", but you can still get that affect if you down air during any momentum (from being hit), kinda like Tink's down air. So you can have a stalling down air into a proper fast fall down air. Considering fast fall cancelling is in this game, I think people are just not used to what different variations they can achieve yet.

All the match ups I mentioned originally were ones which I definitely feel G&W has a niche for, and I'm confident in taking my G&W into tournament against any Rosalina or Lucario at a lower level (or maybe even same level or better if I'm frustrated) and have a very very fun time watching my opponent struggle.

 

[deepseadiva]

IMO most of his nerfs are fairly minor or are only nerfs from a particular perspective.

IMO those are huge nerfs.

Maybe he's all around a great character. But as an opponent, not having to worry about forever smashes, him living for forever, crazy dtilt, and dthrow not being DUMB anymore...

I'm definitely much more calm versus him. xD

 

[Kofu]

I could be wrong on BAir losing its landing hitbox, but if it's there it's not as good as it was in Brawl. But I agree, it's still a phenominal aerial poking tool, even if it doesn't poke shields quite as well as it used to.

FSmash is still good, it just lacks the hitbox wall it used to have. I haven't really experimented with the its disjoint too much but it's really solid.

UTilt needs to hit grounded opponents better. In most situations I'd rather just use an aerial to hit someone above me, but if both hits connect it does a solid 14%.

Chef needs to be mentioned, too. The airdodge lag allows the move to apply more pressure on landing foes than it used to, and the pan still semi-spikes. The normal version of the move seems overall quicker to me, and its customs provide two different options for spacing that can change the way G&W controls the air in front of him

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Hitting someone with a chair in this game feels almost as satisfying as hitting someone with a chair in real life. Playing GnW feels great in this game.

 

[Signia]

Regarding a community list (or rather, "character competitive impressions" regulars' tier list), I think since not all of us know about every character, we're gonna end up with something that isn't very useful. We seem to avoid saying who are low tiers either, probably for good reason.

So I think an interesting way of doing it, that would make decisions easier and more manageable would be with gradual dividing of character groups in half, where one half is better than the others.

So then, to start, which characters belong in the top half? My vote:



It was tough leaving out:

 

[Iron Kraken]

Regarding a community list (or rather, "character competitive impressions" regulars' tier list), I think since not all of us know about every character, we're gonna end up with something that isn't very useful. We seem to avoid saying who are low tiers either, probably for good reason.

So I think an interesting way of doing it, that would make decisions easier and more manageable would be with gradual dividing of character groups in half, where one half is better than the others.

So then, to start, which characters belong in the top half? My vote:



It was tough leaving out:

Overall my top half list would look very similar.

I'm curious though, what do you think holds Mario back? I've been thinking that Mario is a bit above average in Smash 4, but I haven't actually played the character much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Overall my top half list would look very similar.

I'm curious though, what do you think holds Mario back? I've been thinking that Mario is a bit above average in Smash 4, but I haven't actually played the character much.

His damage per hit just sucks. And his combos don't actually properly link, which allows people to either jump out or interrupt them with quick N-airs.

Adding the fact that Mario doesn't have great survivability (easily juggled and edgeguarded), he REALLY does not want to trade, because he loses that way against the vast majority of the cast. And he can't easily score early KOs, and his edgeguarding while neat isn't amazing given his short recovery prevents him from making really aggressive plays offstage.

Regarding a community list (or rather, "character competitive impressions" regulars' tier list), I think since not all of us know about every character, we're gonna end up with something that isn't very useful. We seem to avoid saying who are low tiers either, probably for good reason.

So I think an interesting way of doing it, that would make decisions easier and more manageable would be with gradual dividing of character groups in half, where one half is better than the others.

So then, to start, which characters belong in the top half? My vote:



It was tough leaving out:

Falco, Duck Hunt, and Toon Link are better than Link, ROB, and Bowser. Other than that I don't have anything else to argue.

 

[Signia]

Overall my top half list would look very similar.

I'm curious though, what do you think holds Mario back? I've been thinking that Mario is a bit above average in Smash 4, but I haven't actually played the character much.

I don't know. I just don't think Mario is better than any of the characters I have listed. It's also based on trusting all the Mario discussion that's gone on already. Apparently he's not the combo monster he's supposed to be. Yep, you set off A2ZOMG again.

 

[deepseadiva]

There needs to be a rule you can't mention any of the characters on your profile in this thread.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Haha fair enough, I missed out on the discussion on Mario apparently and I was just curious. Those all seem like legitimate reasons.

 

[Empyrean]

I don't really have the game yet (waiting for Wii U) but I'd like to weigh in on the community tier list idea. I think it would be more harmful for the short term as the Smash community doesn't exactly handle tier lists all that well. With so many new players joining the community, it might give the wrong idea and some might think it's supposed to be a guide on who to play or something. A similar thing happened with the Clash tournaments preliminary tier list for PM not too long ago. Many new players took it as gospel whereas it received harsh criticism from the core community.

There's already an unhealthy amount of people running about repeating top players' (Zero, Nakat, etc) character impressions as fact. So imho, this might only make matters worse.

 

[Iron Kraken]

There needs to be a rule you can't mention any of the characters on your profile in this thread.

That seems like a pretty terrible rule. Who is more qualified to discuss a character than the people who know them best?

Yeah, I get that you're worried about bias, but bias will always be an issue to some extent like it or not. Ultimately we just have to trust that some kind of wisdom emerges from among the many voices.

For my part, I was a Toon Link main in Brawl, but I never considered him more than an average character. I just played him because I liked him. I take no pride in my main being a top tier character, that's just silly. So when I say that from everything I can gather I think Rosalina is a top tier character, I like to think that i'm not being biased. It's just my honest assessment of her.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That seems like a pretty terrible rule. Who is more qualified to discuss a character than the people who know them best?

Yeah, I get that you're worried about bias, but bias will always be an issue to some extent like it or not. Ultimately we just have to trust that some kind of wisdom emerges from among the many voices.

For my part, I was a Toon Link main in Brawl, but I never considered him more than an average character. I just played him because I liked him. I take no pride in my main being a top tier character, that's just silly. So when I say that from everything I can gather I think Rosalina is a top tier character, I like to think that i'm not being biased. It's just my honest assessment of her.

In Rosalina's specific case, I don't think anyone will seriously dispute that she's top tier material as of now. I mean really.

Actually, are there any puppet fighters that haven't ended up being really good? My fighting game knowledge isn't terribly broad so I'm not sure if there exists a bad puppet fighter.

 

[Signia]

In Rosalina's specific case, I don't think anyone will seriously dispute that she's top tier material as of now. I mean really.

Actually, are there any puppet fighters that haven't ended up being really good? My fighting game knowledge isn't terribly broad so I'm not sure if there exists a bad puppet fighter.

In the same game, Soul Calibur 5, Viola is considered to be the best, and ZWEI considered the worst. Both puppet characters. Both considered to not be very good at the start. Upon research, Viola was found to be near broken, and ZWEI was found to be gimmicky, but not that bad, since the game is pretty balanced. Then again, they might not quite qualify as puppet characters, since you can't attack the puppets? Idk, what's relevant is that they cause there to be independent attacks during recovery animations, or hitstun animations, allowing for special offensive or defensive options.

Pretty sure Carl Clover from Blazblue was only sorta good in one version?

 

[A2ZOMG]

There needs to be a rule that you have to actually be able to count and do basic addition to participate in this thread.

Fixed.

I will not tolerate people spreading misleading nonsense such as "Mario easily gets people to 80-100 in two reads". Like, having a basic understanding of elementary school math would instantly tell anyone that this is completely false. You don't need to main the character to see this. There's literally enough videos on the internet to tell you that Mario's U-air only does 7% and his U-tilt does not properly link. Yet...people somehow managed to come to a different conclusion.

In the same game, Soul Calibur 5, Viola is considered to be the best, and ZWEI considered the worst. Both puppet characters. Both considered to not be very good at the start. Upon research, Viola was found to be near broken, and ZWEI was found to be gimmicky, but not that bad, since the game is pretty balanced. Then again, they might not quite qualify as puppet characters, since you can't attack the puppets? Idk, what's relevant is that they cause there to be independent attacks during recovery animations, or hitstun animations, allowing for special offensive or defensive options.

Pretty sure Carl Clover from Blazblue was only sorta good in one version?

Yeah see, the problem with puppet characters is they can never be balanced. Either they're completely ridiculous or they're absolutely pointless, because you can't fundamentally play fair with a character that is designed to either allow you a second input source of attacking while already committing, or cover options that the rest of the cast absolutely is not supposed to.

Carl as I heard was legit S tier in BBCT, then he was pointless, and supposedly in Japan he's broken again in CP but nobody wants to play him.

 

[Gea]

JJBA, the game with basically half of the characters having "puppets," gets utterly dominated by a character without a stand that directly enters the field.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In the same game, Soul Calibur 5, Viola is considered to be the best, and ZWEI considered the worst. Both puppet characters. Both considered to not be very good at the start. Upon research, Viola was found to be near broken, and ZWEI was found to be gimmicky, but not that bad, since the game is pretty balanced. Then again, they might not quite qualify as puppet characters, since you can't attack the puppets? Idk, what's relevant is that they cause there to be independent attacks during recovery animations, or hitstun animations, allowing for special offensive or defensive options.

Pretty sure Carl Clover from Blazblue was only sorta good in one version?

FWIW I define a puppet fighter as a character that can control a second entity and have that entity fight on their behalf. So Rosalina is a puppet fighter since she can control Luma, but Olimar is not since his Pikmin are just glorified ammo for his moves. Ice Climbers are weird since their desynchs are probably unintended but I'll count them anyway based on what you can do with them. (Or I would if they were in the game...)

 

[PKNintendo]

I don't think there is a character like the former top tiers in smash 4. I believe Rosalina to be the best character in the game, but Yoshi and Sonic are really close, Villager is really in their league (I still feel people are really, massively sleeping on this guy and the absurd power of Timber Counter), and none of them are really that far ahead of the rest of the generally high tier characters. Rosalina is also not really that hard to challenge air to air; her aerials are amazing for following up and are definitely good overall, but she's so floaty and her aerials have really long commitments so it's often easy for the other player to whiff punish her by using their own aerial mobility or by coming at her from angles she covers poorly (the only diagonal she easily covers is the one in front of her and above; on the other three diagonals she has weak coverage, and in general for defensive use below, I'm just completely unimpressed with her dair). I don't actually feel like Rosalina has an easy winning algorithm in general; she's really good mostly for the sheer diversity of tactics she can employ and her sheer adaptability at being able to handle all kinds of crazy situations (as a complete contrast to ICs, her helper is something she can choose to use in a ton of different ways as opposed to a babysitting job). There's no one straightforward and simple plan of abusing a few strong moves or tactics that will get her wins even against lower tier characters, and that makes her an interesting top tier.

I've been thinking though; we've been really scattered in here, and smash Wii U is getting close. I think most of us do have internal tier lists that, while probably all individually inaccurate, would average to a good sense of public perception on the balance and might allow us to have more directed discussion (see where we believe average opinions to be most wrong and look into those characters more). Would people be opposed to forming a preliminary community tier list by a bunch of us just putting forth our individual lists and averaging them? I'd probably want to make a separate topic for the process so this one wouldn't be clogged by that kind of discussion killer (and yeah, I have the details of the format worked out if we go ahead with it), but I think the information that could provide would be interesting and could really help us frame this discussion going forward. Thoughts?

Hell no, I'd be all for it.

I'd love to see your informed thoughts and opinions on the cast. Even if it isn't objectively accurate, we could use it as a springboard for other topics.

It beats aimless discussion and pointless semantics.

 

[san.]

Jigglypuff's jab2 reach is quite peculiar, seems to be longer in reach than her dtilt. It seems pretty ridiculous to me considering the nature of her character.

 

[Shaya]

Secret revelation: Jigglypuff actually has the best footsies.

 

[Thinkaman]

Many have asserted that Rosalina has nowhere to go but up, since she is so complex and almost certainly has many tricks waiting to be discovered. I don't full agree. (Disclaimer: Yes, Rosalina is a really strong character, and yeah she probably has more tricks waiting to be discovered than anyone.)

Normally, extra complex characters only get better with time. There is more room to discover new strengths, new ways to access existing strengths, and more ways to cover their weaknesses.

The last part is probably most important.


Think back to ICs. They didn't become S-tier overnight when their infinites were discovered. They became S-tier after ICs players slowly evolved optimal strategies and play patterns to protect Nana and fish for grabs safely.

Fighting Nana is like 80% PvP, 20% PvE. Once you get her separated, it's momentarily a one-player game; might as well be Guitar Hero. If ICs didn't have any tricks, they would have gotten worse as the community mastered the latter 20%. But, their tricks in the former 80% give them room to grow, room that ultimately outweighs the one-play AI punish minigame; in the hands of a good player, separating Nana so you can play Guitar Hero against her is a huge mountain to climb. Good luck.

I think fighting Luma is like 40% PvP, 60% PvE. Luma can't shield, can't really be recovered when hit off-stage, doesn't require off-stage commitment, is sometimes deliberately/mechanically separated from the player.

Virtually any shield pressure threatens Luma in a very serious way. Any character in the game can trade being grabbed for killing Luma--not that this is a good idea, but it showcases how fundamentally different Luma is as an obstacle than Nana.


This isn't touching on how formidable Rosalina is or isn't on her own, or how well she can stall for Luma respawns. I'm just saying that the structure of her puppet system is such that bilateral game mastery does not seem nearly as advantageous for her as it was for ICs.

Jigglypuff's jab2 reach is quite peculiar, seems to be longer in reach than her dtilt. It seems pretty ridiculous to me considering the nature of her character.

San: Revolutionizing the Jigglypuff jab/d-tilt meta.

 

[kackamee]

Spoiler

I don't think there is a character like the former top tiers in smash 4. I believe Rosalina to be the best character in the game, but Yoshi and Sonic are really close, Villager is really in their league (I still feel people are really, massively sleeping on this guy and the absurd power of Timber Counter), and none of them are really that far ahead of the rest of the generally high tier characters. Rosalina is also not really that hard to challenge air to air; her aerials are amazing for following up and are definitely good overall, but she's so floaty and her aerials have really long commitments so it's often easy for the other player to whiff punish her by using their own aerial mobility or by coming at her from angles she covers poorly (the only diagonal she easily covers is the one in front of her and above; on the other three diagonals she has weak coverage, and in general for defensive use below, I'm just completely unimpressed with her dair). I don't actually feel like Rosalina has an easy winning algorithm in general; she's really good mostly for the sheer diversity of tactics she can employ and her sheer adaptability at being able to handle all kinds of crazy situations (as a complete contrast to ICs, her helper is something she can choose to use in a ton of different ways as opposed to a babysitting job). There's no one straightforward and simple plan of abusing a few strong moves or tactics that will get her wins even against lower tier characters, and that makes her an interesting top tier.

I've been thinking though; we've been really scattered in here, and smash Wii U is getting close. I think most of us do have internal tier lists that, while probably all individually inaccurate, would average to a good sense of public perception on the balance and might allow us to have more directed discussion (see where we believe average opinions to be most wrong and look into those characters more). Would people be opposed to forming a preliminary community tier list by a bunch of us just putting forth our individual lists and averaging them? I'd probably want to make a separate topic for the process so this one wouldn't be clogged by that kind of discussion killer (and yeah, I have the details of the format worked out if we go ahead with it), but I think the information that could provide would be interesting and could really help us frame this discussion going forward.

Thoughts?

I think it's important to have a general ruleset before placing characters in tiers. You can get a general feel for how good/bad a character is by playing them, but if I were to make a specific tier list I'm sure it would change based on stages allowed, customs, # of stocks, etc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

JJBA, the game with basically half of the characters having "puppets," gets utterly dominated by a character without a stand that directly enters the field.

Stands are not puppets. Yes, I know what Stand rushing is. It costs meter, and the pressure options it gives you generally speaking are nowhere nearly comparable to what actual puppetry does.

And the top 3 in All Star Battle all use Stands. None of them are puppet characters, but still break the rules with things like being able to act during hitstun and ludicrous meterless damage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Actually certain stands have puppet functionality, or in some essence, the idea of it. D'Bo, for instance, is a puppet character. Remote controlling stands in CPS3 JoJos also exists, and there's even something like Star Platinum's Star Finger when using Jotaro where you hold the button and release it for activation.

Really there's only one "true" puppet character and that is D'Bo. But the game has a lot of puppet-esque controls.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Buuuuuuuuuuuut

Hol Horse is pretty dumb. In the original JJBA, anyways. Digressing, tho'.

I'm just not digging the complexity = higher yield. Insofar as puppet characters go, they really need to have a good kit that goes along with the rest of their shenanigans. That's why characters like Zato and Relius are good beyond their respective puppets, and why CARL CLOVER, aside from the damn clap loop WITH HIS PUPPET, was booty.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TTTTTsd]

LMAO yeah Hol Horse is good (the hanged man bull**** is strong with this man), along with Young Joseph who can do virtually anything without a stand.

But that's not the point, the point is that puppet characters wildly swing around but I think JoJos is the only game where they've ever been mid tier to my knowledge and that's cause it's a game full of other puppet-likes. D'Bo holds his own in low-mid IIRC and he's a puppet character.

I guess it's just their design being counterintuitive when a lot of fighting games are built for 1v1 and you have a 2 in 1 character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Personally, I think we should postpone any formal, organized community tier fun-and-games until at least the WiiU version comes out.

That reminds me, someone mentioned the GCN controller and the effect it will or will not have on various characters. Let's talk about that!

Good controls are like custom moves. Everyone gets at least slightly better; options can only help in a nominal sense, never hurt. But some obviously benefit way more than others.

GCN controller's higher precision and additional buttons/stick are most helpful for the following inputs:

• Movement-independent aerials
• DACUS
• Reliable diagonal ANYTHING (most applicable to specials)
• Pivot f-smashes
• Robin smash-aerials
• Reverse/turnabout/wavebounce specials

I think the following characters will benefit most:
Several Super Speed cancels are really input-intensive
Important pivot f-smash, potent DACUS, smash aerials
Lives and breathes aerials and air movement, CRITICAL diagonal inputs on Pound; has an important DACUS too
Highly technical character revolving around floating aerials

I think the following will benefit a lot:
Ganon's limited option set benefits more from new tools than anyone else; he gets a DACUS, strong pivot f-smash, and presumably a massive shutter-step f-smash like in Brawl
Huge DACUS, a few input-intensive tricks
DACUS, critical to space with aerials, input-intensive monado cancels

 

[A2ZOMG]

LMAO yeah Hol Horse is good (the hanged man bull**** is strong with this man), along with Young Joseph who can do virtually anything without a stand.

But that's not the point, the point is that puppet characters wildly swing around but I think JoJos is the only game where they've ever been mid tier to my knowledge and that's cause it's a game full of other puppet-likes. D'Bo holds his own in low-mid IIRC and he's a puppet character.

I guess it's just their design being counterintuitive when a lot of fighting games are built for 1v1 and you have a 2 in 1 character.

That's not really what puppetry is about though. Stands more function as extra moves, as opposed to extra resources that exist independent of the main character. And Stand Rushing is analogous to standard meter burn pressure strings in other fighters, given it costs meter anyway.

And as I stated, true puppet characters are either extremely good, or extremely pointless, where your alternate resource (the puppet) can be commanded to go to a location mostly of your choosing to control space there and do moves. There's only two outcomes for this type of playstyle. Either it actually covers options well and then it's broken, or the main character is so terrible they can't make real use of it in the first place and they're pointless.

 

[Thinkaman]

And as I stated, true puppet characters are either extremely good, or extremely pointless, where your alternate resource (the puppet) can be commanded to go to a location mostly of your choosing to control space there and do moves. There's only two outcomes for this type of playstyle. Either it actually covers options well and then it's broken, or the main character is so terrible they can't make real use of it in the first place and they're pointless.

I mean, there's clearly some intermediate value where they work, which is true for essentially all mechanisms.

It's just very difficult to find that appropriate value for such a complicated system.

 

[TTTTTsd]

D'Bo's stand functions do not cost meter. They cost it if he's hit (it's more of a stand HP thing) but that's no different than RosaLuma's Luma having HP. D'Bo is, as I said, a "true" puppet character by every definition of the word. His entire gameplan is around his own normals and controlling that puppet separately during or before them, along with positioning.

I suppose remote stands might count too but they're not pivotal to the character as much as D'Bo's puppetry is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean, there's clearly some intermediate value where they work, which is true for essentially all mechanisms.

It's just very difficult to find that appropriate value for such a complicated system.

I'll be honest, I find that Rosalina is noticeably better balanced than other puppet characters I'm aware of, more because the true puppet aspects of her character are relatively minor. It primarily gets obnoxious if you don't have a throw that simultaneously hits Luma easily, which then forces you to just play almost blindly aggressively to kill Luma. But in terms of pressure and space control, even though Luma can be used for remotely, that isn't usually the best strategy given this isn't a traditional fighter with high low mixups.

Luma is better played like a normal Stand from the JoJo fighting games, rather than as a strict puppet imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll be honest, I find that Rosalina is noticeably better balanced than other puppet characters I'm aware of, more because the true puppet aspects of her character are relatively minor. It primarily gets especially obnoxious if you don't have a throw that simultaneously hits Luma easily, which then forces you to just play almost blindly aggressively to kill Luma.

I've found myself able to get away with a lot of insta-throws that don't necessarily hit Luma, but displace Rosalina (and thus Luma) quickly enough to protect me.

We'll see if this holds true, but it seems like way more characters are safe on insta-throw than against Nana's jabs or smashes.

Aside: Nothing makes you feel more "I AM THE WORST SMASH BROS PLAYER OF ALL TIME" than instinctively trying to shield-grab Luma.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've found myself able to get away with a lot of insta-throws that don't necessarily hit Luma, but displace Rosalina (and thus Luma) quickly enough to protect me.

We'll see if this holds true, but it seems like way more characters are safe on insta-throw than against Nana's jabs or smashes.

Aside: Nothing makes you feel more "I AM THE WORST SMASH BROS PLAYER OF ALL TIME" than instinctively trying to shield-grab Luma.

I'm of the opinion that Rosalina should always punish you for grabbing her if Luma is nearby and you don't have something like Mario's B-throw. But on the flipside, yeah. Getting punished for trying to break Rosalina's defenses isn't nearly as severe as what the ICs could do.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Honestly, Rosy doesnt feel like a full fledged puppet character, she's more like a mid range zoner who just so happens to have two separate hitboxes/hurtboxes that occasionally separate from each other.

I dont really know a better way to put it, she's not really all that complex (although she has a lot of cool **** she can do if you know where to place Luma), she just... Idk, I cant put it into words without it not sounding right lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly, Rosy doesnt feel like a full fledged puppet character, she's more like a mid range zoner who just so happens to have two separate hitboxes/hurtboxes that occasionally separate from each other.

I dont really know a better way to put it, she's not really all that complex (although she has a lot of cool **** she can do if you know where to place Luma), she just... Idk, I cant put it into words without it not sounding right lol.

She's a JoJo stand user without the traditional fighting game meter bar. Yes you can get low commitment remote pressure, but that is not the basis of your main strategy, and your Stand more serves as additional moves.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Never played JoJo's, but based off what little of the series Ive seen, that could be what I mean lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm of the opinion that Rosalina should always punish you for grabbing her if Luma is nearby and you don't have something like Mario's B-throw. But on the flipside, yeah. Getting punished for trying to break Rosalina's defenses isn't nearly as severe as what the ICs could do.

Yeah; this is true of both punish window and magnitude.

Attacking a Rosalina Shield and a IC shield(s) could not be more different!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah; this is true of both punish window and magnitude.

Attacking a Rosalina Shield and a IC shield(s) could not be more different!

Sorta on topic. Ganondorf vs Rosalina is a very lulzy matchup. I mean, Rosalina's control is SO GOOD that Ganondorf's best option just ends up being playing hyper aggressively to the point of what would appear to be insanity. Which surprisingly enough seems to be able to work just on the basis of Ganondorf's raw reward and swatting Luma away while attacking.

 

[Shaya]

I would consider Rosalina just the single giant Captain Olimar, with a single giant pikmin instead of [heh] 3.
(Aligns a lot more with "mid range zoner" classing than puppeteer)

Most of the scenarios that exist for Rosalina and Luma are kinda just remind me in every way of managing Olimar in Brawl. A slew of mid range, "third party awareness in mind" mechanics and strategies. Managing the pikmin chain to get the right pikmin with the right corresponding attacks at the right time, but you didn't really have to care or play in a way that cares for their fate at all (when you use a purple pikmin attack, you know it will have that amazing effect, even if it somehow dies a moment later or is now at the back of a chain so you can't use it again as easily, it's just a matter of time, rather than a "we're screwed" (Ice Climbers/Most puppeteers). The most effective move choices for Rosalina are all telegraphed given any scenario, much like Brawl Olimar, but are too potent to matter. The match up for another player is about embracing the "third party awareness" just as well as your opponent, knowing exactly the same scenarios/setups that they know and use and taking the various lulls that exist (a poorly placed luma / killed vs suddenly avoided best use case of purple/blue/yellow and you now have 4/5 more usages before you start playing scared again).

Olimar had this, best case scenario of having a perfect pikmin chain, that realistically not many characters had any way to deal with, at all. The RNG for this was frustrating, but if Olimar suddenly has 3 yellows, and a few blues/purples for free, you're basically robbed of a match (or 2 or more of your stocks), his best case scenarios had no lulls in them (by any measurable means) and you got dominated by it; taking many risks to end their stock so they had to start again. I don't think there is the same amount of opportunity for Rosalina to become that fortress (the capability to do so doesn't exist from what we've seen), it's all about forcing Rosalina to play her cards a little (knowing what her best options are) and then taking advantage in the short periods of time before she can get back to her best case scenario/optimal position again.

It's no coincidence that Dabuz, a long-time contender for best Olimar in NA has transitioned so easily and with great success using Rosalina. Rosalina's design has taken away a lot of the uncertainty/RNG that existed within Olimar's play patterns, giving you slightly more control but otherwise achieving much of the same scenarios as he was capable of in Brawl; with the weakness of size being complementary to Olimar's weakness in recovery, with no MK or ICs around to completely nullify their 'puppets' and a projectile/item absorber, it's pretty obvious why the new Olimar is seen as #1 this game.

 

[Katy Parry]

Has Zelda been discussed at all?

Her roll cancel pivot grab seems like it might bump her up a few notches in my opinion. All her specials seem pretty useful this time around. Din's, Phantom, and FW all kill extremely well.

I think once the Wii U version is out, she'll be much easier to handle. Myself as a Zelda main use the C-Stick for a LOT of my moves, especially my aerials.