Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Has Zelda been discussed at all?

Her roll cancel pivot grab seems like it might bump her up a few notches in my opinion. All her specials seem pretty useful this time around. Din's, Phantom, and FW all kill extremely well.

I think once the Wii U version is out, she'll be much easier to handle. Myself as a Zelda main use the C-Stick for a LOT of my moves, especially my aerials.

I've been arguing Zelda for mid tier for quite a while. Honestly in this game, if you're difficult to trap, you automatically aren't low tier. And not only does Zelda have an extremely solid recovery that also gets her out of juggles and edge traps very easily, Zelda hits HARD too, and the potential for her Up-B to KO makes her land trapping way more scary.

tl;dr, Zelda survives long, and hits hard. It's a good combination of traits. And she's even got GREAT moves for footsies and a reflector that has invul frames. She's just primarily bad at dealing with really highly mobile characters.

 

[Katy Parry]

I've been arguing Zelda for mid tier for quite a while. Honestly in this game, if you're difficult to trap, you automatically aren't low tier. And not only does Zelda have an extremely solid recovery that also gets her out of juggles and edge traps very easily, Zelda hits HARD too, and the potential for her Up-B to KO makes her land trapping way more scary.

tl;dr, Zelda survives long, and hits hard. It's a good combination of traits. And she's even got GREAT moves for footsies and a reflector that has invul frames. She's just primarily bad at dealing with really highly mobile characters.

That's exactly how I feel. I have trouble with characters like Sonic and Greninja, but again I feel if I had proper controls, I'd do better. So would everyone, but I feel I could react and punish more easily.

In the 3DS version, I RARELY use kicks because I have no C-Stick for them.

Also, I feel like her teleport is much faster, and while it can be blocked easily, I usually land it as a counter attack out of hitstun. I don't know if anyone else does this. But for example, if someone hits me with an FSmash, I wait out the hitstun, double jump and cast Farore's simultaneously AWAY FROM THEM (so I use the momentum of my second jump to get the proper spacing, then I actually teleport to them and hit with the reappearance.

Down tilt is excellent for leading into a grab on characters like Bowser, as well as leading into an Fsmash.

EDIT: Not to mention Din's again, but its like she has a controllable fair if you sweetspot it. I've landed a lot of kills on opponents who just flubbed their air dodge.

Releasing Phantom early for use of the second swing works incredibly well if the opponent has used their second jump already recovering.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The system I was planning to use for a preliminary community list was basically a GPA style system in which you'd tier characters about like this:

S: Overpowered (distorts metagame, "unfair" in power)
A: Tournament Staple (very good character but "fair")
B: Strongly Viable (not a disadvantage to the user but not notably strong either)
C: Somewhat Viable (a disadvantage to the user but not a severe one)
D: Barely Viable (possible to win but a severely flawed character)

With theoretical but assuredly unused SS (Broken/Ban-worthy) and F (Worthless) tiers (S tier is IMO not worth using in this game either, but some others may disagree). You have + and - grades possible for being on the high end or the low end of one of these viability spectrums and you just put all 51 characters into one of these groups and compute the average across everyone the same way you'd compute a GPA in school so if I put Ike in B, san puts Ike in A, and Thinkaman puts Ike in B+, Ike would have (3.0 + 4.0 + 3.3) / 3 = 3.43 as his ranking if we were the only three who posted. I'd also say that it actually is kinda necessary that everyone be ready to place all 51 characters; character viability is always, always relative to all of the other characters so if you have "no clue" about even one character to the point you can't even form an educated guess on that character's viabilty you pretty much know nothing about any character since you don't know if that one character is the one that changes everything (maybe that one character hard counters everyone you think is good and is hard countered by everyone you think is bad; if you are at least sure that's not true, you know enough to place them in this system).

To clarify on the purpose, I don't really think we can form a reasonably accurate list, but that's not really the point. Our current discussion is scattershot and isn't really conveying much to anyone beyond the fact that some people think every character is good other than maybe Olimar who seems to be pretty poorly defended (probably justifiably, Olimar seems quite poor in this game). Some list, no matter how flawed, would be a discussion point. As an example, perhaps it would put Shulk at some sort of a lousy C average and then some of us (like me) who think Shulk is a very strong character would know that's an important character to focus on in the conversation going forward instead of us spinning our wheels about whether we think Rosalina is top tier or very top tier when we actually all seem to agree that Rosalina is some variety of a very good character and the fine point of precisely how good she is is probably something we can't reasonably know for a long time. We would, however, all have to be a bit willing to embarass ourselves by posting tier lists we all know will be proven very wrong in the upcoming years, and seeing some of the people I suspect would produce relatively insightful lists say they wouldn't want to be a part of it does worry me that it might be unsuccessful and might leave me looking stupid when a lot of you guys aren't willing to do the same to yourselves. I suppose fear of looking stupid by posting something on smashboards that a lot of people might disagree with has never stopped me before though...

Since it would also be a total topic derail, I suppose this also qualifies as a question to any of our red-named friends of whether it would be acceptable to make a separate topic in the competitive forum for it. Actually discussing these 51 character lists in the formation process would be so impossible as anything other than an ugly, worthless discussion for so many obvious reasons; a zero discussion vote and then bringing the discussion here of the final results seems best to me (and since we don't actually care if the results are accurate to game balance, only accurate to popular opinion on game balance, it's okay if we don't get to talk people down from poorly formed lists). Zero discussion posting of a few dozen individual's tier lists (or more, who knows how many would care to join in) would kill this topic super dead, and I wouldn't want to do that since scattered as we are we have had quite a few interesting discussions here anyway. So yeah, when I put it like that, am I clear to do that, and would some of you guys be willing to take the plunge and maybe look stupid? I'll put it up in the next ~12 hours if I'm cleared, and I'll drop this thought process otherwise.

 

[ZombieBran]

Has Zelda been discussed at all?

Her roll cancel pivot grab seems like it might bump her up a few notches in my opinion. All her specials seem pretty useful this time around. Din's, Phantom, and FW all kill extremely well.

She's not too rare of a topic in this thread.

I wouldn't put her in bottom tier but I certainly feel like I have a bit of handicap using her sometimes.

Din's is not as bad as it felt initially. Sure you won't be using it like other projectiles (or even landing it often) but it's pretty handy against characters who have terrible recoveries and can barely afford to air dodge it.

Phantom could use a bit more kill power. It's not all that bad but it requires too much of a commitment for the reward and does nearly nothing against certain characters. The ability to hold the charge would make it vastly more useful and then I'd be able to stomach the fact that it can be reflected.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's exactly how I feel. I have trouble with characters like Sonic and Greninja, but again I feel if I had proper controls, I'd do better. So would everyone, but I feel I could react and punish more easily.

In the 3DS version, I RARELY use kicks because I have no C-Stick for them.

Also, I feel like her teleport is much faster, and while it can be blocked easily, I usually land it as a counter attack out of hitstun. I don't know if anyone else does this. But for example, if someone hits me with an FSmash, I wait out the hitstun, double jump and cast Farore's simultaneously AWAY FROM THEM (so I use the momentum of my second jump to get the proper spacing, then I actually teleport to them and hit with the reappearance.

Down tilt is excellent for leading into a grab on characters like Bowser, as well as leading into an Fsmash.

EDIT: Not to mention Din's again, but its like she has a controllable fair if you sweetspot it. I've landed a lot of kills on opponents who just flubbed their air dodge.

Releasing Phantom early for use of the second swing works incredibly well if the opponent has used their second jump already recovering.

I've seen skilled players land Zelda kicks as if it were easy, and kicks still can kill you at like 50% when fresh lol. Not trying to downplay how hard it is, just kicks are relevant.

I think more importantly though, Zelda's superior recovery means she's potentially one of the scariest edgeguarders in the game. Her aerials all have good range, including her D-air, and even the weak meteor on D-air can be lethal. Considering how deep Zelda can edgeguard, yeah. It's something underrated on her right now.

As for Up-B, and aside from the fact it's an amazing tool for punishing landings, thing is, the situations you SHOULD be using Zelda's Up-B aren't ones where your opponent should ever be in a position to block it. That's where Zelda's Up-B is legit one of the best moves in the game. It's a top tier move for MOBILITY and PUNISHING.

The only times your opponent should be blocking Zelda's Up-B are basically if you're just throwing it out when you're not at a KO percent to ensure that your opponent stays honest. And your opponent has to respond differently depending on which direction you teleport.

The fact you have Up-B means your opponent can't ever commit to Smashes, and they also can't really chase Zelda in the air when any time they jump at you, that means you get back to the ground for free. It's only really annoying to land against someone like Little Mac or Sonic, who would easily punish anyone else's landing pretty brainlessly, making them outliers.

As for footsies, Zelda also has F-smash, Jab, Dash Attack, and FINALLY grab. F-smash is always safe on block, Jab is like mini-Fsmash with much faster startup and combo potential (from missed techs) instead of KO potential. Zelda's DA is both extremely fast and has a huge hitbox, which forces respect from people. And Zelda's grab still has excellent reward overall, and has normalized speed.

I think the main thing that's hard to understand about Phantom is that it's legitimately a safe midrange tool with the assumption that you specifically are using it to pressure people who are trying to stay outside of your DA range. That's what I think is cool about the move.

 

[ZombieBran]

Zelda's new d-air is a goddess-send. As is FW. Nayru's is great, invincibility and extremely fast start-up. 11% is not bad in a game where damage for the rest of the cast has been largely nerfed,

The issue is, she's still Zelda. Meaning slow mobility with a default Dins' that still can't force approaches.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda's new d-air is a goddess-send. As is FW.
Nayru's is great. Invincibility and extremely fast start-up.

The issue is, she's still Zelda. Meaning slow mobility with a default Dins' that still can't force approaches.

I thought the real problem with Zelda was she has been traditionally been trolled by game engine mechanics, and she finally is put into an engine that actually has synergy with her tools and gameplan (with some individual buffs and tweaks that she clearly also benefits from).

Her gameplan is not PERFECT, and it shouldn't be. The point is it WORKS and has a win condition with fair trade offs, and she has uses competitively. She probably beats Lucario, for instance.

 

[ZombieBran]

I thought the real problem with Zelda was she has been traditionally been trolled by game engine mechanics, and she finally is put into an engine that actually has synergy with her gameplan.

Her gameplan is not PERFECT, and it shouldn't be. The point is it WORKS and has a win condition with fair trade offs, and she has uses competitively.

Brawl Zelda was odd. All those on-paper buffs but worse than ever because the game's physics hated her.

It works but it feels incomplete.

Someone here grouped her in the gunners group out of brawler/swordfighter/gunner. I'm inclined to agree that's what they were aiming for but Dins' is not a proper projectile. She feels like she was designed as a gunner except she actually plays better as a heavy hitting brawler. That is a problem with mobility this bad. RC Pivot grab helps somewhat.

But yeah, her footsies work. Trades are nearly always in our favor and that really cannot be understated.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brawl Zelda was odd. All those on-paper buffs but worse than ever because the game's physics hated her.

It works but it feels incomplete.

Someone here grouped her in the gunners group out of brawler/swordfighter/gunner. I'm inclined to agree that's what they were aiming for but Dins' is not a proper projectile. She feels like she was designed as a gunner except she actually plays better as a heavy hitting brawler. That is a problem with mobility this bad. RC Pivot grab helps somewhat.

But yeah, her footsies work. Trades are nearly always in our favor and that really cannot be understated.

I'd be really salty if Zelda had a very consistent approach. This is exactly the type of thing we don't need on a character who has a good recovery and reset to neutral. Getting a viable grab without extreme runspeed if you ask me makes the gameplan complete without being cancerous.

Zelda in this way is a character who promotes skilled, but rewarding gameplay. You are forced to play traditional footsies very well with her to be successful, but you get many opportunities to do so (because you can't be trapped), and the times you DO get in successfully are huge.

Whereas like...Pikachu and Sonic. They just break the rules of this game so hard it makes me sick. Just...the risk of trying to even hit them in the first place is ******** because there's no really viable way to reactively punish them.

 

[NairWizard]

Honestly, in this game, if you're difficult to trap, you automatically aren't low tier.

Agree with this. I predict that the rise of potent edgeguarding characters like Pikachu and Greninja (especially with the GCN controller) will also mean the rise of characters with a teleport, mainly Zelda and Palutena (I guess Sheik too...).


On Rosalina: I believe that Rosalina will beat characters who rely on a combo or trap game to win. Luma disrupts many setups and forces the opponent to either use hit-and-run tactics or to go completely aggro and make lots of reads: the former is overall a weak and slow strategy for many trap-heavy characters (you won't rack up damage fast enough), and the latter is high-risk, high-reward, so it lacks the kind of consistency that high-stakes tournaments demand (you want 70-30 options that result in small to moderate gains or small to moderate losses rather than 50-50 options that result in immediate wins or losses, basically). Characters like Diddy and Greninja have to give up some of the tools that make them so dangerous and commit to weaker tactics in order to beat Rosalina.

Meanwhile, I believe that characters who excel at hitting hard and then backing off again (aforementioned hit-and-run tactics) will have a good chance against Rosalina: Peach with her float, for example, is very adept at doing this safely and although earlier in this thread I suggested that Rosalina is advantaged in this matchup, I now believe that over time Peach will gain an advantage. Sonic and Fox are also good at playing this game. Zero Suit Samus is not bad at this tactic in this iteration either, I believe: her combos seem weaker overall but she can get in and get out quite well with paralyzer and dash attack.

 

[ZombieBran]

I'd be really salty if Zelda had a very consistent approach. This is exactly the type of thing we don't need on a character who has a good recovery and reset to neutral. Getting a viable grab without extreme runspeed if you ask me makes the gameplan complete without being cancerous.

Zelda in this way is a character who promotes skilled, but rewarding gameplay. You are forced to play traditional footsies very well with her to be successful, but you get many opportunities to do so (because you can't be trapped), and the times you DO get in successfully are huge.

Whereas like...Pikachu and Sonic. They just break the rules of this game so hard it makes me sick. Just...the risk of trying to even hit them in the first place is ******** because there's no really viable way to reactively punish them.

I don't want her to have a great approach, it doesn't fit her character or kit. A way to consistently force approaches would make her complete. She's designed as a punisher but the fact she can often be forced to approach undermines that severely. It's not as bad in this game, but without the new FW she'd be in really dire straits right now.

Her reward is good but not equal to the risk. If they shaved off some end lag from her moves, she'd be much better. That awful land lag on nair is counter intuitive to the combo oriented design it seems to have been given.

Fighting Smash 4 Sonic and Pikachu as Zelda are some of the least fun experiences I've ever had in Smash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Agree with this. I predict that the rise of potent edgeguarding characters like Pikachu and Greninja (especially with the GCN controller) will also mean the rise of characters with a teleport, mainly Zelda and Palutena (I guess Sheik too...).


On Rosalina: I believe that Rosalina will beat characters who rely on a combo or trap game to win. Luma disrupts many setups and forces the opponent to either use hit-and-run tactics or to go completely aggro and make lots of reads: the former is overall a weak and slow strategy for many trap-heavy characters (you won't rack up damage fast enough), and the latter is high-risk, high-reward, so it lacks the kind of consistency that high-stakes tournaments demand (you want 70-30 options that result in small to moderate gains or small to moderate losses rather than 50-50 options that result in immediate wins or losses, basically). Characters like Diddy and Greninja have to give up some of the tools that make them so dangerous and commit to weaker tactics in order to beat Rosalina.

Meanwhile, I believe that characters who excel at hitting hard and then backing off again (aforementioned hit-and-run tactics) will have a good chance against Rosalina: Peach with her float, for example, is very adept at doing this safely and although earlier in this thread I suggested that Rosalina is advantaged in this matchup, I now believe that over time Peach will gain an advantage. Sonic and Fox are also good at playing this game. Zero Suit Samus is not bad at this tactic in this iteration either, I believe: her combos seem weaker overall but she can get in and get out quite well with paralyzer and dash attack.

If Mario had his damage output from Brawl, I'd readily argue he beats Rosalina given he actually has a fairly easy time getting around Luma with B-throw/D-air and has good aerials for shield pressure.

But yeah. Mario got nerfed.

Heavies vs Rosalina are weird, because yeah. She craps on them for trying to play safe, which forces them to play ham.

Oh also, you forgot Metaknight. His Down-B was never a bad move honestly, just now in this game the attack actually serves a purpose.

I don't want her to have a great approach, it doesn't fit her character or kit. A way to consistently force approaches would make her complete. She's designed as a punisher but the fact she can often be forced to approach undermines that severely. It's not as bad in this game, but without the new FW she'd be in really dire straits right now.

Her reward is good but not equal to the risk. If they shaved off some end lag from her moves, she'd be much better. That awful land lag on nair is counter intuitive to the combo oriented design it seems to have been given.

Fighting Smash 4 Sonic and Pikachu as Zelda are some of the least fun experiences I've ever had in Smash.

I can see what you're getting at, but part of me also thinks that I don't want old school Falco to return to this game either. Falco couldn't be camped, forced everyone to approach, and was plainly stupid to fight up close. Also pretty cancerous honestly.

 

[Kofu]

I'll preface this post by saying that Zelda is not a character that I use well at all. She is far too reactive and defensive a character for my tastes. She's probably the only one I've seen where trying to play an offensive game will get you punished every time. That's not to say that I don't play defensively ever, but I just can't see Zelda approaching.

Anyway, can someone explain to me the concept of footsies to me, since I clearly don't understand it if Zelda can do them well. In my mind, footsies are edging your way in by carefully spacing and throwing out attacks until you're either where you want to be or you dealt a little damage to the opponent. Zelda's not a character I can see doing that well, not when she lacks mobility and an effective aerial approach. Her ground game is solid, I admit, but it's not enough in a game where shieldstun is lower than ever.

I respect her defensive game, however, as she is difficult to approach and can punish improperly spaced attacks dangerously well. She's also very good at killing, and the game's mechanics--most notably the effectiveness of air-to-ground trapping and the removal of SDI--favor her game plan. But as soon as you get an advantage on her, it's a harder battle for her to regain control than it was for the opponent to get in.

As an aside, I feel she fits the archetype of a swordfighter than a gunner or brawler better with her disjointed attacks and precision-based gameplan.

 

[ZombieBran]

There would need to be radical changes to Dins' for it to be as useful as Falco's old lasers. I just want less end lag on it and/or faster detonation. She's also not nearly as great in CQC as Falco was/is so I don't think that'd be an issue.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll preface this post by saying that Zelda is not a character that I use well at all. She is far too reactive and defensive a character for my tastes. She's probably the only one I've seen where trying to play an offensive game will get you punished every time. That's not to say that I don't play defensively ever, but I just can't see Zelda approaching.

Anyway, can someone explain to me the concept of footsies to me, since I clearly don't understand it if Zelda can do them well. In my mind, footsies are edging your way in by carefully spacing and throwing out attacks until you're either where you want to be or you dealt a little damage to the opponent. Zelda's not a character I can see doing that well, not when she lacks mobility and an effective aerial approach. Her ground game is solid, I admit, but it's not enough in a game where shieldstun is lower than ever.

I respect her defensive game, however, as she is difficult to approach and can punish improperly spaced attacks dangerously well. She's also very good at killing, and the game's mechanics--most notably the effectiveness of air-to-ground trapping and the removal of SDI--favor her game plan. But as soon as you get an advantage on her, it's a harder battle for her to regain control than it was for the opponent to get in.

As an aside, I feel she fits the archetype of a swordfighter than a gunner or brawler better with her disjointed attacks and precision-based gameplan.

Footsies is midrange wars, the game of outspacing your opponent, and trying to be better at commanding respect of your options. Several things influence respect, including range, mobility, safety, and reward.

Zelda effectively has like Marth's D-tilt except it STARTS COMBOS. That's ****ing good.

Her F-smash is completely safe on powershield. Jab is also always safe on block and forces missed techs which confirm hits into DA and it stuffs so much ****. Plus they buffed her grab, which combined with her amazing DA means you can't mindlessly turtle against her.

Against people who try really hard to space outside of your DA range, that's when you throw out Phantom. Which is safe on block to clarify.

You have to WORK to get in. That's fine, because you should always be killing people much earlier than they should be killing you (unless your opponent is Bowser or Ganondorf) because absolutely nobody in this game will ever land Smashes on Zelda except as a ridiculously hard read in footsies.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I have yet to play vs. a Zelda I would consider halfway threatening, so I don't have much to say about her.

The only character in the game I consider outright bad as of this post though is Dr. Mario.

There are a lot of characters I think people are sleeping on too. San has already said a lot about Jigglypuff, for example, but I think she is massively good and enormously underrated by most of you atm.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have yet to play vs. a Zelda I would consider halfway threatening, so I don't have much to say about her.

The only character in the game I consider outright bad as of this post though is Dr. Mario.

There are a lot of characters I think people are sleeping on too. San has already said a lot about Jigglypuff, for example, but I think she is massively good and enormously underrated by most of you atm.

Jiggs I agree is likely top 5 or so. Char is legitimately more stupid than her Melee self, minus she doesn't get to ledge camp and her airdodge shenganigans are much weaker this game. She has unfair KO power, spacing, shield break potential, and Rest. Yeah. So she hits your shield like twice, does Pound, and BOOM. You're dead now.

 

[Katy Parry]

Thank you for the insight on Zelda. It makes me super excited for Wii U tournaments.

What are you thoughts on her RC pivot grab though, A2ZOMG?

 

[Tagxy]

Alright, I need someone to tell me about because people having been complaining about for the past day, ever since Zero mentioned the japanese using her so much. Also update on that; along with rain, nietono also quit Greninja for sheik also citing his inability to win unless he changes (granted both of these players did the same thing in Brawl too).

In the wake of this news suddenly certain top players have talked about how amazing sheik is and have been citing Mr. R as an example of a good sheik, and say moves like bouncing fish and fair arent punishable moves. Granted these are the same players who jumped on (and apparently have since abandoned) the diddy bandwagon a few weeks ago.

Cant say i know much about this character at all and wouldnt necessarily mind her being great, but I feel like characters such as and who outspace sheik in the air and air to ground would give her a hard time. Other characters with similar attributes to sheik tend to be smaller, in fact sheik is rather large for a fast character. Anyways, moreso looking for people's thoughts on sheik or vs sheik who know stuff about her.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thank you for the insight on Zelda. It makes me super excited for Wii U tournaments.

What are you thoughts on her RC pivot grab though, A2ZOMG?

Hard to say, although it's legitimately one of Zelda's best anti-air options. Something which she does lack.

Alright, I need someone to tell me about because people having been complaining about for the past day, ever since Zero mentioned the japanese using her so much. Also update on that; along with rain, nietono also quit Greninja for sheik also citing his inability to win unless he changes (granted both of these players did the same thing in Brawl too).

Suddenly certain top players have topped onto the top wagon who've been citing Mr. R as an example of a good sheik, and say moves like bouncing fish and fair arent punishable moves. Granted these are the same players who jumped on (and apparently have since abandoned) the diddy bandwagon a few weeks ago.

Cant say i know much about this character at all and wouldnt necessarily mind her being great, but I feel like characters such as and who outspace sheik in the air and air to ground would give her a hard time. Other characters with similar attributes to sheik tend to be smaller, in fact sheik is rather large for a fast character. Anyways, moreso looking for people's thoughts on sheik or vs sheik who know stuff about her.

Emblem Lord summed it up the best way. Sheik never needs to do anything unsafe to be at an advantage.

Everyone has to respect Needles, especially since they cannot be beaten by powershielding.

If you aren't aware, Sheik has often been regarded as one of Marth's hardest matchups in Melee, a game where Marth had MORE RANGE. And this is because everyone also has to give Sheik's Dash Attack and Dash Grab a huge amount of respect when approaching her. If you whiff anything, she punishes you. Marth also legitimately cannot safely retreat fullhop F-air against Sheik, who literally has enough mobility to chase and punish it.

Basically to sum it up, Needles and amazing run speed + out of dash options means Sheik has one of THE best neutral games by design. Absolutely nobody is ever safe from it, and Sheik doesn't actually need to do much of anything to force people into unfavorable strategies.

 

[Tagxy]

I've actually been mostly playing melee the past year, and use marth against sheik in melee because its better than pika, but nair is a better "safe" option against sheik (even though you still need to be careful). The worst part of that MU is the chaingrab that leads to immediate follow ups and potentially death. There's also a belief lately that the MU might not be as bad or close to 50-50 as marths metagame reaches higher levels. In that game sheik tends to lose to crouch cancel, but aerials are also less safe simply because of how fast you fall and have little time to retreat against certain characters (aka marth also has a hard time vs crouch cancel)

I agree about most of what you said though, just think that MU is overrated in melee and is also weighed heavily by the chaingrab. I dunno, characters without projectiles have to respect those with them regardless, and they work more like a charge shot then a normal projectile even if you cant powersheild them.

Oh, also jiggs destroys sheik in melee.

 

[Kofu]

Footsies is midrange wars, the game of outspacing your opponent, and trying to be better at commanding respect of your options. Several things influence respect, including range, mobility, safety, and reward.

Zelda effectively has like Marth's D-tilt except it STARTS COMBOS. That's ****ing good.

Her F-smash is completely safe on powershield. Jab is also always safe on block and forces missed techs which confirm hits into DA and it stuffs so much ****. Plus they buffed her grab, which combined with her amazing DA means you can't mindlessly turtle against her.

Against people who try really hard to space outside of your DA range, that's when you throw out Phantom. Which is safe on block to clarify.

You have to WORK to get in. That's fine, because you should always be killing people much earlier than they should be killing you (unless your opponent is Bowser or Ganondorf) because absolutely nobody in this game will ever land Smashes on Zelda except as a ridiculously hard read in footsies.

Thanks for the explanation of footsies; it sounds like I had the right idea of them. I had just never considered defending against the approacher to be a part of it, either.

I've fought enough good/decent Zelda players to know the effectiveness of a lot of these moves (especially DTilt) but it's still something I'd argue because of her struggle to be on the offensive end, but she does seem legitimately better in this game.

I'll give my arguments up, though. I just don't understand/hate characters who are defensive by design, Zelda being one of them, Brawl Olimar being another (and Snake kinda?). I would honestly prefer playing against MK or Diddy than I would Olimar. I don't even know if it was the designer's intention to make Olimar defensive, but his metagame sure developed to become that way.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks for the explanation of footsies; it sounds like I had the right idea of them. I had just never considered defending against the approacher to be a part of it, either.

I've fought enough good/decent Zelda players to know the effectiveness of a lot of these moves (especially DTilt) but it's still something I'd argue because of her struggle to be on the offensive end, but she does seem legitimately better in this game.

I'll give my arguments up, though. I just don't understand/hate characters who are defensive by design, Zelda being one of them, Brawl Olimar being another (and Snake kinda?). I would honestly prefer playing against MK or Diddy than I would Olimar. I don't even know if it was the designer's intention to make Olimar defensive, but his metagame sure developed to become that way.

I think Zelda's design is ultimately fair. She gets amazing normals, but specifically doesn't get the benefit of consistent air spacing or insane dash speed to mix up her offense. She also has above average survivability, meaning even though she struggles to get in, she gets plenty of opportunities to figure out her opponent. Then from there her gameplan falls into place when looking at Zelda's capitalization game, which is her other strong point.

She could be arguably lame to play against when she's ahead, because she IS hard to approach and trap. But again, I believe that it's acceptable on a character who needs to work hard to approach. I absolutely detest Pikachu and Sonic, in contrast for breaking this rule.

Part of me wants to establish an S tier so we have a competitive standard for banning the top tiers in side events because the main problem with the balance in this game...like it has been for the past two games, is top characters getting tools that clearly shouldn't be allowed from a game design stand point. Sonic and Pikachu in theory can't be hit and can't be reacted to. Rosalina...has puppet shenanigans. Lucario has aura. Diddy and Sheik have EVERYTHING. Yeah like...a metagame without those characters would frankly be more strategically interesting.

 

[Tagxy]

Also worth noting sheiks neutral game in melee was good but not amazing. Ill have to verify that but Im pretty sure its true. It was snakish in a sense. Even as pikachu (or when I watch it at top level play), I never felt I had a hard time landing hits only that once I was hit I might as well put my controller down and check the time while I took my lumps.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also worth noting sheiks neutral game in melee was good but not amazing. It was snakish in a sense. Ill have to verify that but Im pretty sure its true. Even as pikachu (or when I watch it at top level play), I never felt I had a hard time landing hits only that once I was hit I might as well put my controller down and check the time while I took my lumps.

Well yeah. Nobody's neutral game in Melee matters once we talk space animals. Especially Falco. *shudders*

And you just reminded me, my Melee main is your 2nd worst matchup.

Also as much as I think Smash 4 top tiers have questionable design choices...they really are a lot less bull**** than Brawl/Melee top tiers. Much fewer instances of easy gimps/insane damage combos, so the top tier in this game overall doesn't just simply touch you once and demolish you.

 

[Shaya]

@ Amazing Ampharos

Nah, I really can't condone a full tier list voting. There's a good reason why I'm such a hard ass about them as it is. I do agree that it would have to be a voting only topic and it's more about a tally and discussing the results afterwards. However it's just crazy to think anyone here has an idea about 51 characters in relation to each other. There's also the dual scenario where we have tournaments with customs legal and tournaments without them legal skewing people's opinions. I probably have a rough idea about most of the characters in this cast based on their normals and a rough look at their specials, but definitely not all the custom variations, considering the amount of depth/strategies/implementations I'm still finding with various customs I've played with for tens of hours already I really cannot even dare to think about the cast in an optimal fashion, so then it bumps back down to customless, which isn't giving us a proper vision of the most viable instances of any given character. Logic loop ad infinitum ... I guess.

Then we get to the S-D and things get complicated, what if I want to rate 51 characters as S? I wouldn't, nor would anyone else, but your descriptions/categories may not actually accurately describe the viability spread in this game, and otherwise people may feel the need to "fill" space for categories they don't even believe those characters fit in. The implication you can do B+ or B- makes things even further convoluted.

Ultimately what I look for is food for thought (which I think a lot of the time we get here, this is probably the best thread on Smashboards right now). Perhaps going over Rosalina for the upteenth time is getting a bit old, I agree. But what about focusing energies elsewhere? What about collaborating all these opinions on each character / match up inferences into single places (think Brawl Character Discussions by the BBR... and that came to me just through typing, and that would actually be perhaps a really good idea if done right; GAH), paraphrased or "selected" for conciseness.

As I mentioned earlier in different words, we should be slicing up the elephant/divide and conquering the big primordial ooze we all like to throw our DNA into. I don't think asking the widespread community to "deal with it at all at once" will be that positive, but I could very well be wrong.

Cant say i know much about this character at all and wouldnt necessarily mind her being great, but I feel like characters such as and who outspace sheik in the air and air to ground would give her a hard time. Other characters with similar attributes to sheik tend to be smaller, in fact sheik is rather large for a fast character. Anyways, moreso looking for people's thoughts on sheik or vs sheik who know stuff about her.

Marth? Eh, we've got good tools but the speed though (and needles... mostly/probably) makes a sick, decrepit monster. Who knows, maybe we can just dolphin slash through all of her **** on our shield again. My abilities to play that match up would have no real solid basis on what it could be in the future. All I have ever happen is I get wrecked and either then kill her first because lol tippers as sheik tries to finish me, or she just times me out.

Meanwhile... JIGGLYPUFF? Holy **** yes, what does sheik do against this cretin? Camp it really really hard. Could see jiggs developing the evil tools to annihilate her. Her Neutral air shield trapping into her competent CQC is like.... something I don't think is fair.

 

[Kofu]

I don't think Zelda's broken, I just really dislike the concept.

The balance in this game has so far been rather impressive, though, with only a handful of characters being deemed bad. That could definitely change, but as it is at least half the cast is being called usable, amazing, slept-on, decent, impressive, powerful, great, contender for top/high tier, or other synonymous descriptors.

From my perspective, the characters most likely to be bottom tier are Wii Fit Trainer, Dr. Mario, and the Mii Swordfighter. I'm undecided on Mario, Luigi, Ganon, Samus, Ike, and Meta Knight (lol those hitboxes). That being said, custom specials may change a lot of this; I'm unfamiliar with most. Honestly, I think the most interesting part of this game's development will be seeing how people use, apply, and adapt to the custom moves (and seeing if Japan ever adopts them, haha).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think she's broken, I just really dislike the concept.

The balance in this game has so far been rather impressive, though, with only a handful of characters being deemed bad. That could definitely change, but as it is at least half the cast is being called usable, amazing, slept-on, decent, impressive, powerful, great, contender for top/high tier, or other synonymous descriptors.

From my perspective, the characters most likely to be bottom tier are Wii Fit Trainer, Dr. Mario, and the Mii Swordfighter. I'm undecided on Mario, Luigi, Ganon, Samus, Ike, and Meta Knight (lol those hitboxes). That being said, custom specials may change a lot of this; I'm unfamiliar with most. Honestly, I think the most interesting part of this game's development will be seeing how people use, apply, and adapt to the custom moves (and seeing if Japan ever adopts them, haha).

Wii Fit Trainer isn't terrible. Excellent recovery (SideB is half the reason you should almost always make it back to the stage as WFT), great projectiles, aerials are all very good and can be buffered out of SH Airdodge, and WFT also gives no ****s about crossovers. Plus she inexplicably has the least laggy airdodge landing in the game according to frame data from the Japanese.

Range is sorta bad on several of her ground moves, but damage isn't awful, especially with Deep Breathing. Sun Salutation is like a slightly weaker Samus Charge Shot, which frankly makes it amazing.

WFT is the true beginner Jack of All Trades character imo. Plays the game extremely conventionally, but isn't really bad at anything. She sorta has Mario's problem in midrange, but her projectiles are better and she also generally gets more reward than he does.

 

[Tagxy]

Yeah Im not trying to say sheik is bad which I guess is how its coming across, I just dont see the SS tier. And I think at least one character (if not a couple) will simply give her a hard time by their designs.

And you just reminded me, my Melee main is your 2nd worst matchup.

Then you must main falco, which is his second worst after fox. Could be ICs potentially.
#shinesaltbutitsalsotrue

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah Im not trying to say sheik is bad which I guess is how its coming across, I just dont see the SS tier. And I think at least one character (if not a couple) will simply give her a hard time by their designs.

Then you must main falco, which is his second worst after fox. Could be ICs potentially.
#shinesaltbutitsalsotrue

Okay, you might have a point, but I'm gonna be real. Mario vs Pikachu in Melee is pretty braindead easy for Mario. iirc chaingrab to like...80-90%? And then it ends with F-smash/U-smash KO? Yeah like, it's basically Sheik all over again. You get touched once and you're not near platforms? Yeah, you're dead.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Something I would ask is that when evaluating a character, try not to let the gap between where their attacks are visually and where they are in reality affect your viewpoint much. Metaknight really is a perfect example of this... There's a lot of "lol his hitboxes" but if his sword was just stubbier to begin with, you'd likely not be saying that at all.

His ranges were probably reduced after they were initially mapped to his model to make him feel more balanced. This happens in a lot of fighting games and it happens all the time. Having your range lower than it appears visually is not a fault in the character. His range is what it is.

 

[Shaya]

The thing about that is that his sword is legitimately shorter than the visual affect that follows them. Look at a single shot/frame of any of those videos going "lol metaknight", see where his sword ends? See about 33% more being added to it by a visual effect? People get hit by his sword, and take damage. It's just a misleading visual.

Could very well be a scenario where they just changed the sword model (which wouldn't require any re-writing of hitboxe data at all, its just a radius and a centre point of any given labeled "bone") but the after effect affect wasn't modified. But it's not really a complicated thing at all to have fixed that up, so short of oversight, I just assume it's all apart of making things "pretty", at the chagrin of every single player.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The thing about that is that his sword is legitimately shorter than the visual affect that follows them. Look at a single shot/frame of any of those videos going "lol metaknight", see where his sword ends? See about 33% more being added to it by a visual effect? People get hit by his sword, and take damage. It's just a misleading visual.

Could very well be a scenario where they just changed the sword model (which wouldn't require any re-writing of hitboxe data at all, its just a radius and a centre point of any given labeled "bone") but the after effect affect wasn't modified. But it's not really a complicated thing at all to have fixed that up, so short of oversight, I just assume it's all apart of making things "pretty", at the chagrin of every single player.

My point is this: if his range is short, it's short. Comparing it to the visual indicator doesn't really make it worse than if it lined up with the visual.

I think we both probably agree it's much to do about nothing, though.

I want to bring up Zero Suit because I haven't in a while. Tagging @ Shaya because he already saw this post and I'd like him to read my edit.

There is a lot of talk about her lack of kill options in this thread, but I don't really see it. I think she's about as good in that department as Sheik, if not markedly stronger. Her Paralyzer at a distance combos to up-b, nair can combo to down-b (both the meteor and kill variants), back air kills at 110-130, up air can still kill off the top and combo from ground moves to do so. Not only does she have a lot of kill moves, she has a ton of ways to set them up at low risk to herself. I don't see this as a concern anymore at all.

What I am more concerned about is the size of her hitboxes. Zero Suit's damage output is lower than it was in brawl in almost every case, from neutral positions to best-case scenario. The only situation it increased is from paralyzer, where you can now get about 30% from a combo. The smaller hitboxes make it easier to trade with her... this is not good for ZSS, who will lose all of these trades. She now must rely more than ever on whiff punishes and baiting. She is as low-commitment as ever, but it is just harder to land things cleanly now. Back air is active for like never, it's ridiculous.

As cliché as it is, I'm really hopeing the GC Controller helps here by giving me more precision... and making it easier to fast fall with bair. It's also possible I'm just doing it wrong. This is me we're talking about.

 

[Meru.]

Can somebody please explain me how ZSS has trouble killing? I fought against a ZSS today and she didn't seem to have much trouble killing. Admittedly he was a much better player than I was in general and he has played waaaay more than I have, but she seems to have more than enough solid set-ups to kill. Her Paralyzer to Up B for one is just ridiculous, even with holding down it kills pretty early. On top of that Up B is also a reliable OoS option. Then she has her Down B which is way faster than it looks, kills really early and catches you more often than would like to admit. And after than she still has her Fsmash for hard reads... or she just KO's you from the top wih Uair since her jumps are high and Dthrow > Uair is amazing... or she kills you with Fair off stage since she's super fast... or she just does Bair since that also happens to kill... She seems full of options.

 

[Jahordon]

I don't think Pikachu can completely about being hit like you make it sound. Quick attack has lag and is punishable--using it back and forth is almost like using Falco's side b to get around the stage in melee.

Pikachu does have good combo game, but he can't mill very well. Those are the same problems that Shiek has. Why are people not praising Pikachu as they are Shiek?

Also, Yoshi seems to be ignored. He combos well, kills easily, lives forever, has a great jab, dash attack, and projectile. I don't see the flaws in Yoshi, but I do see them in some of the other top characters. Am I overestimating Yoshi and Pika?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can somebody please explain me how ZSS has trouble killing? I fought against a ZSS today and she didn't seem to have much trouble killing. Admittedly he was a much better player than I was in general and he has played waaaay more than I have, but she seems to have more than enough solid set-ups to kill. Her Paralyzer to Up B for one is just ridiculous, even with holding down it kills pretty early. On top of that Up B is also a reliable OoS option. Then she has her Down B which is way faster than it looks, kills really early and catches you more often than would like to admit. And after than she still has her Fsmash for hard reads... or she just KO's you from the top wih Uair since her jumps are high and Dthrow > Uair is amazing... or she kills you with Fair off stage since she's super fast... or she just does Bair since that also happens to kill... She seems full of options.

She doesn't really have trouble killing.

 

[Terotrous]

We would, however, all have to be a bit willing to embarass ourselves by posting tier lists we all know will be proven very wrong in the upcoming years, and seeing some of the people I suspect would produce relatively insightful lists say they wouldn't want to be a part of it does worry me that it might be unsuccessful and might leave me looking stupid when a lot of you guys aren't willing to do the same to yourselves

You've been here a while now, you should know that there's never any shortage of volunteers to post stupid tier lists.

I will do my part if the topic gets opened.

 

[Jabejazz]

Pikachu does have good combo game, but he can't mill very well. Those are the same problems that Shiek has. Why are people not praising Pikachu as they are Shiek?

But we are. Sheik is just easier to optimize than Pikachu is, and has shown more results than the latter. But Pikachu's assets are undeniable, some even refer to them as being "cancerous". Take that as you will.
But he's indeed really good.

Also, Yoshi seems to be ignored.

How? Everyone and their mother already acknowledges he's a top character.

 

[Kofu]

Wii Fit Trainer isn't terrible. Excellent recovery (SideB is half the reason you should almost always make it back to the stage as WFT), great projectiles, aerials are all very good and can be buffered out of SH Airdodge, and WFT also gives no ****s about crossovers. Plus she inexplicably has the least laggy airdodge landing in the game according to frame data from the Japanese.

Range is sorta bad on several of her ground moves, but damage isn't awful, especially with Deep Breathing. Sun Salutation is like a slightly weaker Samus Charge Shot, which frankly makes it amazing.

WFT is the true beginner Jack of All Trades character imo. Plays the game extremely conventionally, but isn't really bad at anything. She sorta has Mario's problem in midrange, but her projectiles are better and she also generally gets more reward than he does.

I was tired when I made the post and you're probably right; she's not exceptionally bad but there's very little about her that stands out, and honestly I don't see much potential for the character for the long-run.

Her specials are good, but the bigger problem lies in her normals, and her specials/customs don't really help much. Her ground game is pretty bad. To start, her DA is one of the least impressive I've seen, actually halting her instead of moving her forward and is pretty easily punished. Her grab is also really short, Brawl Ganon range if not worse (the throws themselves are good though). The range on her tilts are pretty bad, and hitting behind her doesn't really help with the situation. Most of her moves hit high, too, making it easy for short foes to avoid the majority of her attacks.

Her aerials are good, can't really argue that. She also really struggles to kill. If I can't kill below 120% against Jigglypuff without Deep Breathing, there's a problem Her smashes hit reasonably hard but are hard to land, especially USmash, which probably shouldn't land against any opponent who knows what they're doing barring hitting through platforms.

I really don't think she's a beginner-friendy character with her weird hitboxes and difficulty killing. Good WFT mains will probably learn how to use where the hit boxes appear and what to do with them. Lower airdodge lag is a nice boon regardless.

Her taunts and ability to do push-ups off the stage are amazing though. SSS tier.

@ Supermodel From Paris

I agree that a lo of the lampooning of MK's range has to do with the fact that it doesn't match up with his sword visual at all, but the fact remains that bad range is bad range, and people would still complain about UT even if Galaxia matched up with the hitboxes. He has short range and not much else to compensate for it.

 

[Conda]

-delete this please