Character Competitive Impressions

[DunnoBro]

We can't mention that DHDs recovery is among the easier ones in the game to to tag as Ness PK2 without the risk of getting blown up if you miss due to its slow initial lift in tandem with no hitbox.

Almost all the DHD set use the quicker recovery with hitboxes though.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Almost all the DHD set use the quicker recovery with hitboxes though.

Because they acknowledge the qualms in his original special.
Customless environments aren't friendly to the dog, but I especially remember this watching Apex and seeing DHD's recover infront of players for free while they're both in the air because no one waits for it.
Given his recovery height you wouldnt likely get a kill off of it so long as they tech, but it was often free damage that was passed up that wasn't hard to perform.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Man, I've been playing for a while and I've believe that he isn't as bad as most people believe. He's pretty underrated, I just want ish his Up-Smash can kill better also his maybe a some tuning on is tilts.

Also I haven't been seeing any players in tournaments or online either, is she bad or forgotten?

I think Peach is pretty clearly good, or more accurately she has the tools to be good. Floating aerials, turnips, a good recovery, plus a sleep-inducing counter if customs are on. Its just that she requires a lot of work and thus lacks representation and results.

I think her biggest weakness is swordsmen and other characters with disjoint on basically everything?

 

[Champ Gold]

I think Peach is pretty clearly good, or more accurately she has the tools to be good. Floating aerials, turnips, a good recovery, plus a sleep-inducing counter if customs are on. Its just that she requires a lot of work and thus lacks representation and results.

I think her biggest weakness is swordsmen and other characters with disjoint on basically everything?

Shulk would do her in pretty well. Hopefully someone take her to new heights like when people found out about Luigi.

 

[FimPhym]

All this talk about duck hunt! About 12 hours ago I was debating whether or not it was too gushy to post to tell everyone to check out the duck hunt matches on the vgbootcamp YouTube channel. I didn't make the connection that I've seen DunnoBro post here plenty before.

So @ DunnoBro I gotta say, that zig zag can play is so insanely cool. It looks so nuanced and improvisational. At the moment if someone asked me why to play with customs, my new top reason is it would be criminal to not see good duck hunt play with zig zag can. What a pointless loss that would be.

Also love to see a distinct type of zoning. It makes me all fuzzy inside any time I see sharply different characters face off in tournament, and not just the tried and true core of "fast rushdown character with a decent projectile to create openings". Custom DK vs DHD was cool as hell.

Sorry for gushy post, thanks. Sorry.

 

[ToonKake]

@ ToonKake
I would recommend you ask that question to your fellow sonic mains as opposed to this thread (especially considering how many people here feel about Sonic)

(Sigh) figures..... -.-

 

[Champ Gold]

(Sigh) figures..... -.-

Anybody has a problem with Sonic should deal with it considering there are even worst characters

Spoiler

Oh hi, Link

 

[bc1910]

Link is among the easiest characters to deal with in the game. Especially after the jab nerf.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Anybody has a problem with Sonic should deal with it considering there are even worst characters

Spoiler

Oh hi, Link

Spoiler

A good Villager is impossible to deal with if you think Link is a problem.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby's neutral B is a legitimately great move after the patch - if it hasn't been one before already. Not only does Kirby get to copy amazing moves like Shadow Ball, Needles, Monado Art, Can, Bonus Fruit or Paralyzer but it's also a pretty good mix-up option. Not on the same level as Bite or Egg Lay but definitely very useful.

I tended to use Inhale pretty unsafely pre-patch, so I really notice the difference now. There are so many situations I'd get punished in for using it, so being able to get out of those situations on reflex is really useful.

 

[Radical Larry]

What? GW has one of the best recoveries in the game. It is invincible going up, has a hitbox, glides for days, can be cancelled by any attack, and can get you on to the ledge from near blast zone.

To add on, his egde-guarding is fantastic. He can go super deep with multiple great offstage kill options in the form of dair, fair, and bair. In this, he benefits greatly from stellar aerial mobility.

He can also do this:http://youtu.be/oDvk3PMTVH0
Music 10/10
That crouch 0_O

But his aerials after recovery are predictable and his edge-guarding ON stage is kind of below average.

 

[Project Quarantine]

But his aerials after recovery are predictable and his edge-guarding ON stage is kind of below average.

True, but edge GUARDING is technically keeping them away from the ledge, motivated by the fact that your opponent's goal is often to reach the ledge. Not to be confuesd with onstage ledge get up reactions (unless you were referring to the one frame vulnerability ledge grab, which is covered by dash attack VERY well).

Semantics aside, his recovery is still far above average in this game due to the previously stated reasons.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Also I haven't been seeing any players in tournaments or online either, is she bad or forgotten?

Crow is in NorCal and is pretty good, seems to frequent Come on and Ban (search showdowngg on youtube) and does well. Also theres always been Drk.Pch who has a lot of tech videos on youtube but IDK about tourneys.
Speaking of Come On And Ban, some pretty decent Mewtwo play from Trevonte there. Hope he keeps it up.

 

[Shaya]

Also I haven't been seeing any players in tournaments or online either, is she bad or forgotten?

Peach

Pink Fresh ᶩ¹ᶪ Slayerz ᶩ²ᶪ LLOD ᶩ²ᶪ

Umeki (うめき) ᶩ³ᶪ
​

I'm not sure if Pink Fresh is active still? But I hear/see Slayerz come up in SoCal results, LLOD frequents Xanadus still I believe, and Umeki has good results and you could probably find more of him out there, one recent set against Yoshi (aiba) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFEpckLh4vw

Peach seems to maintain at least one weakness from Brawl still, and that's approaching/forcing confrontation. Everything else about her is very very strong, she's one of the true sleepers towards the high-tier area of the game. She also has one of the highest skill floors for any character with technical and mechanical prowess essential to even have a neutral game worth more than dust.
I don't know if she has any notable good match ups that we can pinpoint as accurate (because you just don't see them anywhere) but on the weight of history's past she likely boasts advantages on; in Brawl she had competitive match ups with too. Her float can allow her to negate some staple horizontal tools characters rely on like Needles or Bananas, feasibly negating a bit of Spin Dash woes too. I'm not sure how the match up would go but I'd bet Peach annihilates Luma with ease. She goes about roughly even with ZSS. Slayerz knocked NAKAT's Ness and/or Fox (not sure) out of winners at Final Battle pre-apex too and lost to ESAM 0-2 after low percent suicides both games while being ahead.

 

[Radical Larry]

True, but edge GUARDING is technically keeping them away from the ledge, motivated by the fact that your opponent's goal is often to reach the ledge. Not to be confuesd with onstage ledge get up reactions (unless you were referring to the one frame vulnerability ledge grab, which is covered by dash attack VERY well).

Semantics aside, his recovery is still far above average in this game due to the previously stated reasons.

Admittedly, his recovery is good, but he can still be struck in air during the parachute, so of an opponent is nearby or has a projectile, getting to his elevation, G & W has to think of another plan of action than just simply trying to attack. There are characters with longer disjoints that can punish his follow-ups after recovery.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach actually had a pretty terrible matchup against Diddy in Brawl. Like, her tournament record against Diddy was downright awful. I don't know how good she is in smash 4 though, a lot of people claim that she's somewhere between over-average and amazing for which I haven't heard any good reason yet.

 

[Shaya]

Towards the end she definitely fell victim to Forward Air revolution (much like Luigi did who people thought went even with him at some point). But at the same time the Peach players all quit/stopped traveling (or weren't in regions where there were diddys). I'm not sure if Illmatic actually had any sets taken over gnes, but practically no one on the face of the Earth was taking sets from gnes in his prime without inventing new stupid ways to time him out.

 

[Ffamran]

This just brought up a question: since most characters retain their core functions - play style and moveset -, aren't most of the MUs going to be a bit similar? So, take Falco vs. Meta Knight. Falco had trouble with Meta Knight if I remember correctly and it was made worse in Brawl by how Meta Knight functioned in Brawl. Well, Meta Knight isn't insane anymore, but it's still pretty much the same MU, right? Except made worse on Falco's part of not having a decent projectile, no sex kick to help his disadvantage, and a slower Dair that makes it harder to catch Meta Knight and spike him.

The other question: can one move determine a MU? I'm not taking about stuff like Diddy's Uair or Sheik's Fair; I'm talking about broken stuff like Brawl Falco's Blaster or Brawl Meta Knight's er... Mach Tornado and I guess, Brawl Triple D's chaingrab. Like, if you took away one of those moves, how much will change?

 

[90007000]

I feel that Diddy is still top tier.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This just brought up a question: since most characters retain their core functions - play style and moveset -, aren't most of the MUs going to be a bit similar? So, take Falco vs. Meta Knight. Falco had trouble with Meta Knight if I remember correctly and it was made worse in Brawl by how Meta Knight functioned in Brawl. Well, Meta Knight isn't insane anymore, but it's still pretty much the same MU, right? Except made worse on Falco's part of not having a decent projectile, no sex kick to help his disadvantage, and a slower Dair that makes it harder to catch Meta Knight and spike him.

The other question: can one move determine a MU? I'm not taking about stuff like Diddy's Uair or Sheik's Fair; I'm talking about broken stuff like Brawl Falco's Blaster or Brawl Meta Knight's er... Mach Tornado and I guess, Brawl Triple D's chaingrab. Like, if you took away one of those moves, how much will change?

I think Falco losing lasers would be the biggest blow. Since you're losing a control tool for neutral.

 

[Shaya]

Falco's match ups in Brawl were really heavily defined by him getting a free 40-80% on everyone every stock. He otherwise was still mechanically exceptional (landing lasers were positive on shield enough to guarantee a 50/50 of jab or grab). He suffered being unable to really force kills. His dash attack allowed him to be top 5 mid-rangers in the game which was where most of his "true" power lied in neutral.

MK/Falco was one of the closest to even match ups MK had. What made things a lot harder for Falco was being trapped by tornado (while recovering or from getting off the ledge, no other character really made it this hard for him) and his fall speed/etc making him pretty prime combo/frame trap fodder; when you consider strings into aerial shuttle loops semi-spiking Falco into the depths, it was always possible for MK to take Falco's stock at any percent.

Falco lost dash attack, lasers, jab, chain grab. Recouped by COMBAWZ and still solid-ish grab game in relation to the rest of the cast.
Meta Knight lost Tornado for his prime anti-falco usability, range - but falco lost his best mid range/CQC tools and shuttle loop gimps and a ton of safety on shield.

I think too much has changed between the two to really aptly gauge where the match up is now from how it was in Brawl.
Other characters, not so much.

 

[Cassio]

Since a few people are mentioning pika, guess Ill give a little post-patch spiel.


Comments:
Neutral
The most well rounded good character and usually the most options available to him in a given (similar) situation. For this reason, I believe his neutral is best in the game (better then sheiks, though she may be more dominating in certain aspects). Maybe its better to say its the most adaptive.

Punish
His punish game is pretty strong. In particular, the spike hits of his multihit moves hint at big potential for pretty long strings (ending combos with fair-spike > grab > being combod more).

Killing
He has some solid kill set ups, but also doesn't mind being patient and waiting for a late kill (uthrow and aerials) or getting a good read with a smash attack or offstage aerial.

Strengths and Weaknesses
His weaknesses include being light and having below average aerial mobility. He excels in just about every other area, but not as much in any given area as more niche characters (Jack of all trades, master of none).

Placement
I don't think he's the best character. He has to worry about losing to characters like Ganon and Lucina. Other good characters either aren't as light as a balloon or have a more dominating defense (or both) and can more consistently deal with hard hitting characters in rage. Pikachu can deal with them too, but not as consistently as a more offense oriented character.

Pikachu could be anywhere from 1st - 12th best character so its hard to say conclusively, but what can be said is that he is viable. With customs, he's more arguably the best character.

Semi-related, looks like theres finally confirmation of what I tested before (but not as thoroughly), pikachu has the best rolls and spot dodge in the game (toon link and fox too). And apparently second best airdodge after mewtwo.
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-data-comparison-charts.401480/

Slayerz...lost to ESAM 0-2 after low percent suicides both games while being ahead.

Slayerz got fair spiked offstage game 1, and Peach's terrible verticle recovery caused her to be gimped. I dont remember an SD game 2, but I do remember it didnt end close and an SD could explain why.

 

[Megamang]

I think Falco losing lasers would be the biggest blow. Since you're losing a control tool for neutral.

He did lose his good lasers, which did hurt a lot.


EDIT: Pikachu stuff, yay!

Does he really have trouble with ganon? My friend switches off ganon to deal with my chu (customs off, with customs he always stays ganon). It seems a little uphill without Tjolt camping, but playing campy with tjolt has always let me breeze by ganons in bracket. That said, never faced a truly good ganon in tournament... but im surprised pika would have trouble with a slow character with no reflectors or projectiles.

I guess being able to win the d-tilt war is a pretty big plus for gudorf.

 

[Superbat]

@Seagull Joe This guy has Mayweather as his in game tag in Xanadu. Im dying XD

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's match ups in Brawl were really heavily defined by him getting a free 40-80% on everyone every stock. He otherwise was still mechanically exceptional (landing lasers were positive on shield enough to guarantee a 50/50 of jab or grab). He suffered being unable to really force kills. His dash attack allowed him to be top 5 mid-rangers in the game which was where most of his "true" power lied in neutral.

MK/Falco was one of the closest to even match ups MK had. What made things a lot harder for Falco was being trapped by tornado (while recovering or from getting off the ledge, no other character really made it this hard for him) and his fall speed/etc making him pretty prime combo/frame trap fodder; when you consider strings into aerial shuttle loops semi-spiking Falco into the depths, it was always possible for MK to take Falco's stock at any percent.

Falco lost dash attack, lasers, jab, chain grab. Recouped by COMBAWZ and still solid-ish grab game in relation to the rest of the cast.
Meta Knight lost Tornado for his prime anti-falco usability, range - but falco lost his best mid range/CQC tools and shuttle loop gimps and a ton of safety on shield.

I think too much has changed between the two to really aptly gauge where the match up is now from how it was in Brawl.
Other characters, not so much.

Meta Knight vs. Falco was the first thing that came to mind. Still, it could be possible that one move defined an entire matchup and that some matchups are pretty much the same even with some changes because of the core design of the characters. Falco being a fast faller with bad air speed still lets Meta Knight combo him to hell and back and Mach Tornado is still a formidable move that still ledge traps people to few options, but it's not as insane in Brawl. The main difference between Mach Tornado and Falco's Blaster is what happened: Mach Tornado was toned down while Blaster was stripped down to barely functioning even at basic play.

I don't know the matchup of Ike vs. Falco in Brawl, but let's give a hypothetical and really basic look at it. Let's say Falco shut down Ike with Blaster from a distance and put in way too much damage for it to be considered fair. Ike still made up for having strong, disjointed attacks, but Falco still had the advantage of being a faster attacker, being able to wall people out, and other stuff like chaingrabbing, gatling combo, etc. Now, Falco can't do that. His ability to rack up damage from afar is gone, Ike's air speed is increased, ledge hogging is gone, chain grabbing is gone, Falco's fast Dair spike is gone, Falco Phantasm became less safer because of the hitbox issue, but all of Ike's strengths remain. Falco has to play Ike's game now where Ike outranges, out-powers, and even out-speeds Falco's grab and horizontal mobility.

I'm not saying that Ike completely crushes Falco now, but I'm asking if one move can define a matchup. This game is very balanced compared to past, official games, so there probably won't be dominations in stupid ways. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised of Rosalina still gives Falco trouble in SSB5 because of her core design pretty much invalidating Falco's options; the nature of her disjoints, floatiness, and Luma alone already clashes with Falco's design as a fast faller with bad air speed, and strong close up game.

And if core designs just end up making MUs similar like perhaps Fox vs. Sonic or Mewtwo being tall and light still lends to similar issues between Melee and SSB4.

He did lose his good lasers, which did hurt a lot.

They were way too good and now they're way too bad. Melee was the middle ground where without wavedashing and wavelanding, Falco spamming lasers like that would be more like Wolf spamming lasers or Luigi spamming Fireballs.

 

[Cassio]

EDIT: Pikachu stuff, yay!

Does he really have trouble with ganon? My friend switches off ganon to deal with my chu (customs off, with customs he always stays ganon). It seems a little uphill without Tjolt camping, but playing campy with tjolt has always let me breeze by ganons in bracket. That said, never faced a truly good ganon in tournament... but im surprised pika would have trouble with a slow character with no reflectors or projectiles.

I guess being able to win the d-tilt war is a pretty big plus for gudorf.

I guess the good new for pika is you probably wont see many top level players invest a lot of time into beating pikachu with Ganon or Lucina. But even if pikachu [potentially] wins these MUs, he still has to worry about them more then other characters would have to. If youre trying to rank one viable character among other viable characters, consistency becomes a relevant metric in assessing the current metagame.

 

[Djent]

What if Pikachu takes Wave over Jolt vs. Ganon? I figure Dropkick + Dark Fists together make edgeguarding an unreliable and risky way to kill him. So the additional chance to confirm an early FSmash or HSB kill could be worthwhile. What say you all?

Also, some interesting upsets going on @ Xanadu. Techei > Average Joe & GimR, plus Feel Tension > Kenny.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Meta Knight vs. Falco was the first thing that came to mind. Still, it could be possible that one move defined an entire matchup and that some matchups are pretty much the same even with some changes because of the core design of the characters. Falco being a fast faller with bad air speed still lets Meta Knight combo him to hell and back and Mach Tornado is still a formidable move that still ledge traps people to few options, but it's not as insane in Brawl. The main difference between Mach Tornado and Falco's Blaster is what happened: Mach Tornado was toned down while Blaster was stripped down to barely functioning even at basic play.

I don't know the matchup of Ike vs. Falco in Brawl, but let's give a hypothetical and really basic look at it. Let's say Falco shut down Ike with Blaster from a distance and put in way too much damage for it to be considered fair. Ike still made up for having strong, disjointed attacks, but Falco still had the advantage of being a faster attacker, being able to wall people out, and other stuff like chaingrabbing, gatling combo, etc. Now, Falco can't do that. His ability to rack up damage from afar is gone, Ike's air speed is increased, ledge hogging is gone, chain grabbing is gone, Falco's fast Dair spike is gone, Falco Phantasm became less safer because of the hitbox issue, but all of Ike's strengths remain. Falco has to play Ike's game now where Ike outranges, out-powers, and even out-speeds Falco's grab and horizontal mobility.

I'm not saying that Ike completely crushes Falco now, but I'm asking if one move can define a matchup. This game is very balanced compared to past, official games, so there probably won't be dominations in stupid ways. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised of Rosalina still gives Falco trouble in SSB5 because of her core design pretty much invalidating Falco's options; the nature of her disjoints, floatiness, and Luma alone already clashes with Falco's design as a fast faller with bad air speed, and strong close up game.

And if core designs just end up making MUs similar like perhaps Fox vs. Sonic or Mewtwo being tall and light still lends to similar issues between Melee and SSB4.


They were way too good and now they're way too bad. Melee was the middle ground where without wavedashing and wavelanding, Falco spamming lasers like that would be more like Wolf spamming lasers or Luigi spamming Fireballs.

I would think Ike vs falco was bad for Ike in brawl. One move can change a MU especially if it's a move like Falco's lasers. Having disjoints helps but you have to remember when falco camping it doesn't matter. The worse your mobility the harder it is for you to get in.

 

[(Buddha)]

Hey guys, what do you all think about Olimar? I think his grab game is amazing.

 

[Blobface]

@ Cassio Most Ganon's feel that the Pika matchup is actually bad for Ganondorf. Do you think he's actually a bad matchup for Pika or do you think he's just dangerous to Pika since he can kill him so easily?

@ DunnoBro Do you think Duck Hunt might benefit from the implementation of Footstool Jablock combos? I'd imagine he'd be good at setting them up, and guaranteed Smashes would help his kill power considerably.

Out of curiosity, were footstool setups a thing back in Brawl? I know Jab locking was, but what about footstools? I'm wondering if hitstun will have a significant effect on the usability of footstools.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I would think Ike vs falco was bad for Ike in brawl. One move can change a MU especially if it's a move like Falco's lasers. Having disjoints helps but you have to remember when falco camping it doesn't matter. The worse your mobility the harder it is for you to get in.

Last time I saw it I think it was posted at 4-6 once Ikes figured out the Bthrow -> Dash Attack combo stuff and just generally got better at the MU.

Been years since I last bothered keeping up with the Brawl stuff though. I just remember that the only really horrible MU for Ike was MK. There were a few other ones that looked horrible at the start, but time proved that actually weren't that bad. Jab canceling went a looooong ways for making up damage taken from afar.

As for the MU in SSB4... I don't really know. The Falco vs Ike discussion on the Falco board had like 4 posts. I don't think anybody really has a clue on that one. One post suggested evenish, but that was about it....

Laser changes are a pretty big deal for Falco for sure though. I'm not sure even keeping his old Dair would have saved him from his awkward current location.

 

[Cassio]

Djent Im not as familiar with customs but I think I agree with you.

@ Cassio Most Ganon's feel that the Pika matchup is actually bad for Ganondorf. Do you think he's actually a bad matchup for Pika or do you think he's just dangerous to Pika since he can kill him so easily?

@ DunnoBro Do you think Duck Hunt might benefit from the implementation of Footstool Jablock combos? I'd imagine he'd be good at setting them up, and guaranteed Smashes would help his kill power considerably.

Out of curiosity, were footstool setups a thing back in Brawl? I know Jab locking was, but what about footstools? I'm wondering if hitstun will have a significant effect on the usability of footstools.

Moreso dangerous. To elaborate, I used Ganon and Lucina as examples of a certain type of character.

 

[allshort17]

@ Cassio
Out of curiosity, were footstool setups a thing back in Brawl? I know Jab locking was, but what about footstools? I'm wondering if hitstun will have a significant effect on the usability of footstools.

Sure they were. Pika and Diddy had infinites based around them that players actually performed in tournaments.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Man, I've been playing for a while and I've believe that he isn't as bad as most people believe. He's pretty underrated, I just want ish his Up-Smash can kill better also his maybe a some tuning on is tilts.

Also I haven't been seeing any players in tournaments or online either, is she bad or forgotten?

There are peach players, there just isn't a lot of us.

 

[Ffamran]

As for the MU in SSB4... I don't really know. The Falco vs Ike discussion on the Falco board had like 4 posts. I don't think anybody really has a clue on that one. One post suggested evenish, but that was about it....

Laser changes are a pretty big deal for Falco for sure though. I'm not sure even keeping his old Dair would have saved him from his awkward current location.

I keep mentioning in the OP of the MU discussion you can ask for fights and that playing with each other would be great for the MU and for fun, but nobody bothers.

Ratios, I don't care for, but even then, Falco usually gets slightly disadvantaged and even at best. Little Mac's discussion seems to suffer from For Glory Little Mac clouds and it's the only one where Falco players feel is 60:40 and two people even said if you throw Little Mac off the stage, he's done because Falco's a good edgeguarder. This assumes Falco's slow grab can catch Little Mac and this assumes a Little Mac who's an idiot.

His old Dair wasn't a throw this move out and hit everyone because it's that stupid. I'm looking at you Luigi Nair interrupters. Anyway, his Dair needed to be set up which in Melee and PM, you could do with Reflector and I don't really know what you could do in Brawl other than abuse Blaster's auto-cancel and stall the opponent to set up a Dair. The fact it was a fast was what made it good, but it was also a strong spike too. That was a bit unnecessary. A frame 5 spike that powerful? Two options if you want to keep it as a spike: slow and powerful like pretty much everyone's spike or weak and fast which I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Other options would be to completely change his Dair which people might complain... and they will. Even if it was kept as is, people would complain because complaining is just something people do.

It's having double the startup on Dash Attack, the end lag on Blaster, grab made slower by 2 frames, slower than Ganondorf's, and Bair being Wolf's in animation wrecked Falco's kit. There was no real reason for Dash Attack to be that slow, Blaster wasn't balanced/fixed when stuff like Sheik's Needles exist, Luigi's Fireballs can fire the quickly while dealing more damage (up close), and customs projectiles such as Fox's Impact Blaster, Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit, Link's Quickfire Bow, and Toon Link's Piercing Arrows are considered Falco lasers, but better, grab is ridiculously slow for its range, and Bair isn't that good when you factor in Falco's air speed and losing a front hitbox to make his disadvantage less painful. These minor changes would take a small overhaul to fix Falco since Bair would have to be reanimated and the other moves would probably would have to be reanimated to fit the changes in hit frames. The time the developers can make other fans happy by making DLC characters, stages, and modes completely outweighs anything that can be done to fix Falco. Even landing lag changes could be considered too much, "wasted" work. Adding knockback and damage might actually break Falco more than fix him.

I would not be surprised one bit that if Wolf returns, he'll keep his old Bair and Falco's is kept as is. Or Wolf gets Falco's old Bair to mix things up which would be a literal kick in the face since Wolf would, if he's Brawl Wolf ported over and tweaked, have two moves to help his disadvantage: Nair and Bair and even Fair and Blaster.

Also, apparently, I'm the genie who shows up at the mere mention of Falco's name on Smashboards and not Shaya.

 

[Megamang]

Djent Im not as familiar with customs but I think I agree with you.

Moreso dangerous. To elaborate, I used Ganon and Lucina as examples of a certain type of character.

Like, you can suddenly find yourself in losers bracket/eliminated if you get killed by an enraged ganon/lucina at silly low % due to pika's weight?

Ive always felt that ganon has a good time in tournament because of this effect, even if someone would usually beat you, a few reads can totally change the game.

 

[TriTails]

Pretty dang sure Luigi's N-air was even more insane in Brawl. Y'all need to thank the good Mr. Sakurai for nerfing it or else D-throw to N-air is the new Hoo Hah.

 

[HeroMystic]

A lot of stuff that came from Brawl was either nerfed or taken away completely so Luigi can't really boast about that.

And I'm pretty sure Luigi would prefer having his guaranteed Jab to Up-B back I feel.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Jab to UpB is still kinda guaranteed though.

 

[Pyr]

And I'm pretty sure Luigi would prefer having his guaranteed Jab to Up-B back I feel.

Why you gotta make me feel these feels? =(