Character Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

If there were any buffs or nerfs given, it would be:

Sheik's F-Air goes down to 3% damage and does more vertical knockback.
Sheik's N-Air goes down to 8% damage.
Rosalina's U-Air and U-Tilt have no knockback near the end of the move.
Diddy Kong's F-Smash is as slow as Sheik's.
Ganondorf gets better air and ground speed.
Ganondorf's grab armor on F-Spec comes back.
Link gets his infinite back.
Doc jumps higher and moves faster in air.

Pretty much sums up what I'd like to see.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

.......I don't think sheik is as easy to "handle " as people are suggesting.

 

[san.]

I'm was gonna say it's hard to believe a character who's fastest ground move is a frame 5 dtilt could have "one of the best boxing games" but I realized Palutena gets by on her even slower *** jab.

I don't know about "best boxing games" when Falcon, Fox, Mac, Rosalina, Yoshi, all the Mario brothers are in that group.

Sheer reward and ease of use. Same reason why you didn't list ZSS with a frame 1 jab compared to these characters with frame 3 jabs. Distance-speed-safety ratio is what I looked at. I should've just said close quarters footsies then. Swordsman has one of the better walks in the game as well. Walk->powershield->dtilt(retains some distance from slide) will punish many options in the game. Many jabs are also active at max reach 1 frame after their initial hitbox comes out.

I dunno what Palutena does, hers seems pretty crappy to me outside of grab setups during customs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Her jab is pretty good actually but there's a whole lot of damn good jabs in this game. I wouldn't rank it among the highest but it has good range, connects very reliably, deals good damage and is pretty safe on block.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

you get a choice between . , , and to remove from the game. who would you pick and why?

I'm a DK main and he kinda ruins the game for me. Well, so do the other ones, but it's Sonic. At least when I fight Sheik she deals actual damage when she camps, so that's something right? Olimar is chill, we don't see nearly enough of him, and Rosalina is unique and cool. Satan Lucifer the embodiment of cancer -i mean- sonic, on the other hand, simply takes everything ridiculous about this game (defensive playstyle and stupid rolls) and shoves it in my face.

 

[Megamang]

I'd take out shiek; I think any character with no bad matchups is bad for a game's growth.


That said, we aren't sure she doesn't have bad MUs yet, so... lets talk about that.

I want a pocket Shiek counter for myself, since I have been eliminated only by shieks, CFs, and pre-patch diddies... Who does she struggle with the most?

I heard that lucario was good, and It make sense to me... He benefits the most from her main flaw! I should be killing her with Force Palm at like 40% before she can finally finish me off! Well, when I went lucario I spent the entire game chasing needles or losing horrifically in neutral; I don't think he is the answer.. a character needs to be able to force her to trade, or to kill her early, or to kill her in neutral... so who does any of the first two, because I don't think the second can be answered by anyone.

I actually like ZSS a little for the MU, since you kill so much earlier and relatively safely with bair.

 

[Antonykun]

how about we don't talk about removing someone's favorite character?

 

[Quickhero]

how about we don't talk about removing someone's favorite character?

Moreover, let's stop complaining about these characters for days on end and just move on.

It's been at least 3 days that we've been complaining "zomg CF/Sonic/Sheik/Luigi/Diddy is so OP nerf him!" when we have got seldom actually productive to character growth done and instead have just been acting like this game deserves changes immediately. Deal with these characters like you would with any other fighting game, just constantly begging for patches doesn't do anything except degenerate the community and halters the metagame from evolving.

Once in a while, a few QQ posts are understandable, but not for such a long time where it just becomes irrational.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I want a pocket Shiek counter for myself, since I have been eliminated only by shieks, CFs, and pre-patch diddies... Who does she struggle with the most?

For what it's worth Sonic has a couple of notable wins against Sheik. Specifically, 6wx has beaten Nietono at Apex and Komorikiri has beaten Rain this weekend so even after having his bthrow nerfed Sonic seems to do ver much fine against Sheik.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I just want to talk about the lesser characters in the game for a bit. How about custom ike or duck hunt. How do they fair?

 

[ZarroTsu]

A bad Sheik MU off the top of my head is (theoretically) , and a Charizard beating Sheik has happened even rather early in the game's meta iirc.

My poor-man understanding is Charizard's great rage benefits combined with his ability to recover from long distances with Flare Blitz, which Sheik really wants to avoid contact with. Also Rock Smash, and especially custom Rock Smash with frame 1 super armor.

Also for obvious reasons, and I could argue /'s ability to avoid her utility moves like needles via floatyness/ducking. Probably also ?

Disclaimer: I have seen very few sheik matches in lieu of being awol since 1.0.6/7.

 

[bc1910]

I agree. Complaining about a character is one thing, at least it leads to discussion and a few people who point out ways to deal with problematic characters. But "who would you remove from the game" is a terrible conversation thread lol. Like truly truly awful.

Anyway, Duck Hunt is going to be plagued by his terrible kill options for the foreseeable. Even his Uair doesn't actually get kills all that early in my experience. I think fixing his smashes so they actually connect properly would be a start but even then they're all slow and predictable with weird hitboxes.

 

[Mario766]

Custom Ike still has neutral issues and nothing helps his disadvantage state. Close combat and tempest help a ton and paralysis counter is a kill confirm into up tilt at higher percents.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

More over, let's stop complaining about these characters for days on end and just move on?

It's been at least 3 days that we've been complaining "zomg CF/Sonic/Sheik/Luigi/Diddy is so OP nerf him!" when we have got seldom actually productive to character growth done and instead have just been acting like this game deserves changes immediately. Deal with these characters like you would with any other fighting game, just constantly begging for patches doesn't do anything except degenerate the community and halters the metagame from evolving.

Once in a while, a few qq posts are understandable, but not for such a long time where it just becomes irrational.

Thank you.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Megamang]

how about we don't talk about removing someone's favorite character?

I agree. Complaining about a character is one thing, at least it leads to discussion and a few people who point out ways to deal with problematic characters. But "who would you remove from the game" is a terrible conversation thread lol. Like truly truly awful.

Anyway, Duck Hunt is going to be plagued by his terrible kill options for the foreseeable. Even his Uair doesn't actually get kills all that early in my experience. I think fixing his smashes so they actually connect properly would be a start but even then they're all slow and predictable with weird hitboxes.

Yea, I think I answered wrong. I don't mean like, they can't play their favorite character anymore haha, I was thinking remove as in I don't ever have to face one in bracket. And is it anymore wrong to remove someone's character than it is for some people to not be able to really play their character because they lose to needles and fair? Regardless, I agree it was a question bound to cause some controversy.

As for DHD, I don't really have as much trouble killing with him as people seem to suggest, but I don't think my practice partners know the matchup at all. Not to go back to begging for patches, but he needs his smashes fixed, and I think it will actually happen since that is more of a bug fix than a balance issue and they have shown they are trying to fix those (falco's u-smash, dancing blade, link's u-smash, etc.) That said, a keep-away character who is projectile based should have a little trouble killing, since a keep away character who can throw you or jab you to death once you make it in is a little silly. Basically, I'm saying that I'd rather they fix his smashes, and perhaps buff his keep away (or people will optimize it, which is awesome!) than give him a strong ability to kill. It just fits his character more, imo, to keep them away till a wayward move kills them at 190%, than to have him have an aerial killer on par with falcon.

 

[Smog Frog]

lets talk about how well would do in a dominated meta

 

[Asdioh]

lets talk about how well would do in a dominated meta

I agree, would do very well in a dominated meta, especially if people keep complaining about tall fastfallers like , so they both become more common.
Easy-as-pie 40-50% combos, ducking under significant moves, being ungimpable while having superior KO power, wake up sheeple

But seriously if people want a Sheik counter, I dare you to practice some Kirby (especially assuming customs are on) and see how easy it is.
As for relevant results... MikeKirby beat Vinnie recently? That's really all I know about, nobody plays Kirby.

Not even sure why I talk about Kirby so much, it's obvious from my avatar that I'm a Captain Falcon main.

 

[Smog Frog]

I agree, would do very well in a dominated meta, especially if people keep complaining about tall fastfallers like , so they both become more common.
Easy-as-pie 40-50% combos, ducking under significant moves, being ungimpable while having superior KO power, wake up sheeple

But seriously if people want a Sheik counter, I dare you to practice some Kirby (especially assuming customs are on) and see how easy it is.
As for relevant results... MikeKirby beat Vinnie recently? That's really all I know about, nobody plays Kirby.

Not even sure why I talk about Kirby so much, it's obvious from my avatar that I'm a Captain Falcon main.

=/=

 

[NachoOfCheese]

nobody plays Kirby.

You plays Kirby. That's all that matters XD
Btw, do you guys remember back when we were sure that Kirby was among the worst characters in the game?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You plays Kirby. That's all that matters XD
Btw, do you guys remember back when we were sure that Kirby was among the worst characters in the game?

Please don't lump me in with the rest of yall....

 

[TheZyzyva]

More over, let's stop complaining about these characters for days on end and just move on?

It's been at least 3 days that we've been complaining "zomg CF/Sonic/Sheik/Luigi/Diddy is so OP nerf him!" when we have got seldom actually productive to character growth done and instead have just been acting like this game deserves changes immediately. Deal with these characters like you would with any other fighting game, just constantly begging for patches doesn't do anything except degenerate the community and halters the metagame from evolving.

Once in a while, a few qq posts are understandable, but not for such a long time where it just becomes irrational.

While I agree posts that only go so far as to QQ are largely pointless, I personally enjoy it when we can articulate those feelings and form a solid reasoning for our complaints. Taking an in-depth look at what exactly makes a character so strong or frustrating is actually very pertinant to this thread. Analysis is very important, whether it be positive or negative. Granted not everyone takes the time to put together such well written arguments, but such is the case for all the discussions in here it seems.

Now if you would like to discuss something else go ahead and speak your mind and share your own thoughts; engage with us. Coming in to complain about us complaining though seems more detrimental to the thread than all the QQing taking place.

Side thought: Ness might actually drop in the customs on meta, as the windbox specials seem tailor made to gimp him. Dont even need to stop pk thunder, just move Ness 20 feet away from it.

 

[Firefoxx]

In all our discussions about how overpowered every single top tier is we (or maybe just I) missed default Villager winning a trip from Japan to EVO

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...-dogura-kindevu-misse-eita-rf-kyoku-and-more/

This tournament actually had a pretty interesting top 16. Also, I think I'm finally ready to stop being surprised when I see villager do well

 

[Antonykun]

as this meta goes on I'm starting to see more and more in the good of other characters like Swordfighter who used to (and still is sometimes) the butt of jokes is actually really good at footies with his jabs and D-tilts

 

[TheZyzyva]

as this meta goes on I'm starting to see more and more in the good of other characters like Swordfighter who used to (and still is sometimes) the butt of jokes is actually really good at footies with his jabs and D-tilts

I feel like every character has a redeeming quality like this iteration. For the "bad" characters it seems like theyre not bad because they lack any real strength, or even have major flaws (although some certainly do), but mostly from those strengths not coming together in a way that A) covers their flaws and B) results in a consistant winning strategy.

For example, Puff is designed as an aerial glass cannon. Her game plan is to weave in and out and land opportunistic blows while avoiding as much damage as possible. However, while she has stellar aerial mobility, its still not enough to avoid as much damage as she needs to in order to cover that lightweight weakness, making her gameplan largely unreliable. Which is what makes most the low tiers what they are, unreliability.

Inversely, you can look at the good characters and see how their gameplan works so well in their favor.

 

[GimR]

Xanadu is awesome, but I think some people see it as the "premier Smash 4 scene" simply because of the slick production and funny commentary for what's really just a glorified weekly. Look at APEX '15 results, very little, if any, MD/VA rep at the top. Boss, the Joes, GimR n' the boyz are all great but I think on a national scale other regions have them beat.

Boss and Joe are actually national level players. They kind of got screwed at Apex. I think Boss lost to Nario and aMSa but still got 75th. Also I was awful at this game when Apex happened (And I didn't enter). MD/VA is becoming a very strong region. Look at ConCon's recent win against Zero. From watching him play I think Boss is a better Luigi, he's just never played Zero before I don't think. Boss doesn't like to travel too much though :/

 

[bc1910]

Kirby's still kinda bad but my opinion of him is going up. He's pretty safe from my personal bottom 5.

@ TheZyzyva I think you're right, most characters have some kind of redeeming quality. Like Game & Watch who otherwise seems pretty tragic has a great Uair and of course random 9s. Zelda is the only character who I struggle to find a redeeming quality for, her lightning kicks might qualify but they're just way too hard to land.

It's been said before that Zelda would be ridiculous if her lightning kicks were easy to land, and while I don't know if that's true it would certainly give her a unique threat that would force you to respect her in the air.

 

[GimR]

Nope, GimR pulled this off before the patch. People asked GimR, I don't remember if TKbreezy or Logic or whoever asked him since I think it happened 1-2 weeks ago, but GimR's voice wasn't really caught, so it wasn't really confirmed if was a guaranteed setup, but the commentators kept mentioning and wondering if it was guaranteed. I'm not sure if the matches have been uploaded yet and I don't follow Mr. Game & Watch much. I wonder if Shaya knows...

It's guaranteed on most top tier characters, problem is it's like 15% window that changes due to rage. I really have to guess until someone makes a thread that researches all rage percents on all characters T.T

 

[TheZyzyva]

Kirby's still kinda bad but my opinion of him is going up. He's pretty safe from my personal bottom 5.

@ TheZyzyva I think you're right, most characters have some kind of redeeming quality. Like Game & Watch who otherwise seems pretty tragic has a great Uair and of course random 9s. Zelda is the only character who I struggle to find a redeeming quality for, her lightning kicks might qualify but they're just way too hard to land.

It's been said before that Zelda would be ridiculous if her lightning kicks were easy to land, and while I don't know if that's true it would certainly give her a unique threat that would force you to respect her in the air.

I actually went to the bathroom after posting that and thought 'crap wait no Zelda exists!' Even she has strong individual moves though, Faores and Nayrus are both solid, and some wicked strong normals, but they arent cohesive at all. She just doesnt come together and have anything of a gameplan. Wonky is the best way I can describe her.

And whoa GimR sighting! Keep putting work in man, I love watching GDubs in action! Always rooting for you to do well.

 

[Ffamran]

It's guaranteed on most top tier characters, problem is it's like 15% window that changes due to rage. I really have to guess until someone makes a thread that researches all rage percents on all characters T.T

GimR demands research! We shall fulfill.

The only board I remember researching and I think completed their rage research was the Zelda boards. @BJN39, did it get finished?

Edit: For the lazy people who can't be bothered with clicking on links...

I saw a thread like this in the Palutena boards, so I figured it'd also be helpful for us since Zelda can kill extremely early even without rage. All moves were tested on Mario at the center of Battlefield (Wii U), fresh, with no DI. The exceptions are uair, which was tested on the left platform, and bthrow, which was tested on the right edge of the stage. This was done because bthrow is a great rage kill move at the edge, but not from center stage. Bair, fair, ftilt, dsmash and dash attack are all sweetspotted.

| Elevator | Bair | Fair | Uair | Fsmash | Dash Attack | Bthrow | Ftilt | Usmash | Dsmash
Zelda 0% | 71% | 89% | 93% | 114% | 116% | 174% | 141% | 151% | 126% | 166%
Zelda 100% | 52% | 75% | 76% | 98% | 98% | 137% | 116% | 125% | 106% | 140%
Zelda 150% | 36% | 68% | 68% | 88% | 89% | 120% | 99% | 112% | 93% | 129%
Difference 0-100% | 19% | 14%| 17% | 16% | 18% | 37% | 25% | 26% | 20% | 26%
Difference 0-150% | 35% | 21% | 25% | 26% | 27% | 54% | 42% | 39% | 33% | 37%

If there's any other moves you guys want tested, let me know. If anyone else wants to help, that'd be great as well <3

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Pally's got a thread too: http://smashboards.com/threads/palutena-rage-research-thread.391116/#post-18573062. I don't think it was ever completed, though...

All testing was done on Diddy kong in Vs mode so the results can be slightly different from character to character. Percents listed is when a attack would kill diddy kong with no DI. Uair was tested on Battlefield side platform while Final destination was used for everything else. If you want a move I didn't test then simply request it.

| Uair | Bair | Fsmash | Dsmash | Usmash | bthrow | Dthrow
Palutena 0% | 127% | 95% | 54% | 81% | 93% | 110% | 807%
Palutena 100% | 108% | 83% | 45% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 685%
Difference | 19 | 12 | 9 | 11 | 13 | 20 | 122

So what that all said just look at dthrow, dthrow has SUPER CRAZY rage effect on it which explains why such a good combo move isn't that good.

Bonus info:

I also tested grab pummeling a bit against level 9 cpus as Palutena here were my results

25% 1 hit into dthrow works
70% 2 hit into dthrow works
125% 3 hits into dthrow works

 

[Gunla]

GimR demands research! We shall fulfill.

Greninja also has rage %s and the like, though it's not 100% done. Props to @KERO for doing this, and while it has a WIP, it's still pretty good data.

Here's the link if anyone's interested.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Meanwhile I am secretly holding a negative opinion of DHD despite his achievements.
How is the duo actually perceived.

 

[Djent]

In all our discussions about how overpowered every single top tier is we (or maybe just I) missed default Villager winning a trip from Japan to EVO

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...-dogura-kindevu-misse-eita-rf-kyoku-and-more/

This tournament actually had a pretty interesting top 16. Also, I think I'm finally ready to stop being surprised when I see villager do well

WOW, Ranai has always done well (frequent 2nd/3rd finishes) but I think this is his first big win.

For anyone who still doesn't know, this is the guy who did this and this. Amazing to see what he can do now that he 1) practices and 2) actually has a main.

 

[Megamang]

...

Side thought: Ness might actually drop in the customs on meta, as the windbox specials seem tailor made to gimp him. Dont even need to stop pk thunder, just move Ness 20 feet away from it.

Its funny, I think you are the first person to post their character is worse in the customs meta. That isn't a jab either, im glad that people have faith in their characters' abilities/ what they have gained from customs.

So, besides the nebulous "jank", what customs do you guys feel are a threat to your character/top tiers? Personally I like that shiek didn't get some BS kill move to complete her kit. Those are the scariest to me as a pika/ZSS main. Although Heavy Skull Bash definitely falls in the category of BS kill moves, I prefer not to die to them.


Also, do you guys think really strong kill moves (Heavy Skull Bash for example) being around helps or hinders lightweight characters? I don't really know what to think. On one hand, dying really early is a weakness of the lightweights, and more crazy kill moves makes living harder. But on the other hand, truly powerful kill moves might "even the playing field" so to speak, as the heavy characters also die early. Now that I type this, I think the latter is a stronger factor and characters living to 150%+ is the main threat against the super-lightweights, but im still torn.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ness gets destroyed by Kong Cyclone. I have no idea what Sakurai was thinking when he made that move to be quite honest. It's as brainless Brawl Mach Tornado and I actually feel bad when I net KOs with it. It's that stupid.

 

[Trifroze]

I think all these KO% tests should apply DI. Otherwise moves with strong horizontal knockback are going to look stronger than what they really are in practice, whereas moves that have a perfectly diagonal knockback are going to look weak. DI is really easy to apply just by yourself in 1/2 or 1/4 speed as long as you have two controllers, and I'm sure we all do because Wii U.

Also in my opinion, everything should be tested from the center of the stage except uairs from jump height, throws from the edge of the stage, usmashes from their sweetspot if it's slightly up in the air, and meteors at stage height (opponent hanging on the ledge) because those are generally the areas where the moves have the most use. I vouch for Mario/Omega.

Would be nice to get this standardized and see the differences of every character. I was actually doing this with the five strongest moves of every character with the exception of accounting for only 1 meteor per character if they have several and ignoring moves that hit on frame 30 or later, but this takes very long and it took me 2 hours to finish only three characters. Might as well paste it here:

Spoiler

Ganon:

Down Air (meteor): 18%
Up Smash: 73%
Custom Up B 2: 75%
Forward Smash: 80%
Aerial Down B: 96%

Captain Falcon:

Down Air (meteor): 43%
Forward Air: 87%
Up Smash: 92%
Forward Smash: 101%
Side B: 121%

Little Mac:

Up Smash: 88%
Forward Smash: 102%
Up B: 109%
Down Smash: 133%
Forward Tilt: 151%

 

[ToonKake]

okay here iz wut chu do furst u have 2 use the spinerncharge den u use da springer and den da downairz

Da Trolling is real ..... -.-

 

[Cassio]

ConCon beat Larry with Luigi in Brawl (smash 4 of course too), and went last game last hit with FOW including a 3 stock game. Hes always been the better luigi, though theres unavoidable regional bias both ways.

 

[Ffamran]

I think all these KO% tests should apply DI. Otherwise moves with strong horizontal knockback are going to look stronger than what they really are in practice, whereas moves that have a perfectly diagonal knockback are going to look weak. DI is really easy to apply just by yourself in 1/2 or 1/4 speed as long as you have two controllers, and I'm sure we all do because Wii U.

This would be great, but yeah, the issue with two controllers. What about taking into account bad DI? Like, say a move sends you straight up, should we take into account of DI'ing up for mistake purposes? So, someone tries to do an Uair or Utilt, but gets launched straight up the moment they move their analog stick up. It would serve as a, "If you screw up, then you really screwed up", marker.

Also in my opinion, everything should be tested from the center of the stage except uairs from jump height, throws from the edge of the stage, usmashes from their sweetspot if it's slightly up in the air, and meteors at stage height (opponent hanging on the ledge) because those are generally the areas where the moves have the most use. I vouch for Mario/Omega.

Personally, I'd rather go with Luigi, Villager, or min weight Mii since they're right at the middle right now as there's currently 56 characters and they're ranked 23 which is the middle, but whatever. I used Pit for the Falco's KO percents since Mewtwo wasn't there and he, Dark Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer were the closest to the middle. I don't know why Mario's slightly heavier in this game than being dead on average weight. I wonder if say, we used Jigglypuff, Mario (or whoever), and Bowser for KO percents and average the data up instead if see if that's more accurate. It'd take a lot of time, but less than going through all the characters and averaging all of that up.

 

[Antonykun]

@ ToonKake
I would recommend you ask that question to your fellow sonic mains as opposed to this thread (especially considering how many people here feel about Sonic)

 

[|RK|]

I agree, would do very well in a dominated meta, especially if people keep complaining about tall fastfallers like , so they both become more common.
Easy-as-pie 40-50% combos, ducking under significant moves, being ungimpable while having superior KO power, wake up sheeple

But seriously if people want a Sheik counter, I dare you to practice some Kirby (especially assuming customs are on) and see how easy it is.
As for relevant results... MikeKirby beat Vinnie recently? That's really all I know about, nobody plays Kirby.

Not even sure why I talk about Kirby so much, it's obvious from my avatar that I'm a Captain Falcon main.

Also, you have needles? So do we (esp. if we're talking jumping inhale).