Character Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

MK doesn't struggle to kill at all. He has true combos into SL that kill at around 100% off a Dthrow (very easy to DI), Dash Attack (harder to DI, easier to avoid) or Fthrow from a dashgrab (hard to DI). It's very easy for him to get kills in my experience. One of the things that gives him a lot of potential.

What you say is true, but I was mostly trying to respond to why it is fair/unfair that these characters have good projectiles. The problem with Sheik is that her needles are so safe, fast and disruptive yet she's also a great rushdown character with safe attacks, long combos and strings and a solid grab game. Her only flaws are kill power and light weight, the former which is exaggerated and compensated by edgeguarding and setups into U-smash and Bouncing Fish and the latter which is compensated by a great recovery and general evasiveness.

I'm not saying that Sheik is an outright terrible design though, but that kind of design just makes her very likely to come out on top.

Oh I see what you're saying. I expect she was given needles because they wanted to give her a projectile since Zelda had one and they sort of fit her character (they had almost nothing to work with in terms of a moveset for Sheik). As for how strong they are though, I do think it's difficult to justify how strong they end up being, but on paper/from a development standpoint I can see why they act the way they do. The devs probably think/thought they were balanced by high ending lag and causing low damage, even when fully charged. They're right to an extent because Sheik's needles aren't actually that good for camping, she can't really spam one needle at you. However what isn't offset by lag/low damage is, as you said, the sheer speed and disruptive nature of the needles. The fact that they cause proper hitstun with transcendent priority also makes them really powerful for shutting down approaches.

In terms of whether she deserves to have such a powerful projectile it's hard to say. She probably doesn't because even if she can't outright camp with needles they still force approaches and trying to approach a character who's defense is as good as Sheik's (due to her frame data) is not fun. And it's not like she can't approach herself.

Oh yeah her design isn't terrible at all. She's your basic fast combo character. But needles add this weird extra dimension where she can be disruptive from anywhere rather than up close where she should be strongest and that's the problem with her design.

 

[Magik0722]

IMO Sheik is definitely manageable for

Think you should remove wario from that list. She is considered by pretty much all wario mains to be his worst MU.

 

[Yikarur]

Sheik is not managable for Fox.
Actually I think Sheik isn't really "managable" for anyone actually because she is a fortress no one can pass with the most broken projectile in the game and a really broken neutral game. I don't think she has a single dead even match-up.
If "managable" means like -1 (45:55) I think Diddy, Pikachu and Yoshi might be possible but Yoshi is completely shut down by needle camping so I don't think you can count that one too.
The Sheik MU is close to unwinnable for Fox if the Sheik knows the MU.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheik is not managable for Fox.
Actually I think Sheik isn't really "managable" for anyone actually because she is a fortress no one can pass with the most broken projectile in the game and a really broken neutral game. I don't think she has a single dead even match-up.
If "managable" means like -1 (45:55) I think Diddy, Pikachu and Yoshi might be possible but Yoshi is completely shut down by needle camping so I don't think you can count that one too.
The Sheik MU is close to unwinnable for Fox if the Sheik knows the MU.

this isn't year 5 of sm4sh, it's month 6. Nobody knows their MUs to a T. Sheik's problem of killing could turn out to be a major weakness and if it's not, then there is no way on earth that she burries any character right now.

 

[Cassio]

I wouldn't stress out about it. Last week considering that diddy wasn't top 2 or that he had exploitable weaknesses was crazy cause zero still used diddy. then concon beats zero and everyone warms up to the idea.

I think it's possible sheik separates herself from other characters but more likely because of consistency as opposed to a MU spread. She has less to worry about as far as getting "upset" then other good characters do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik is perfectly manageable for both Fox and Wario. She may be one of their worse matchup but they still have a very, very realistic shot at beating her at like any level of play. Might be an uphill battle but calling them "not manageable" is a huuuuuuuuuuuuge stretch.

 

[meleebrawler]

Needles are just overrated to me. Yeah, they're fast and good at disrupting, especially on a character
already naturally good at those things, but they really don't do much other than making you lose your temper
and/or complain on forums. The worst they can do is maybe steal jumps during recovery and interrupt charged attacks.
No followups outside of point-blank, low damage and of course no hope of ever killing. The customs can actually do
some threatening things (shield damage for penetrating, setups with paralyzing), but they both sacrifice range.

I've mentioned this a lot when talking about her: the key to fighting Sheik is to never lose your cool, no matter how much
she hits you. After the patch Bouncing Fish is probably her best kill move so it's a pretty safe bet she'll try to use that
if you're offstage and wants to kill. Any other kill moves she has are only likely to hit if you get flustered and make dumb mistakes.

Still, as long as needles continue to disrupt people, they will continue to complain. The only nerf I see for needles
making people happy is having them cause no hitstun whatsoever (I forget, can Bowser tank needles?).

 

[Radical Larry]

@ meleebrawler At low damages, Bowser can tank a lot of things; needles is one of them (from what I've tested so far). Also, Sheik's Bouncing Fish can be clanked and lose to a lot of aerials, even a well-timed Knee of Justice.

 

[Sleek Media]

Shiek is completely broken. What is there to even discuss? She is strong at all ranges, has outstanding frames, transcendent projectile, ungimpable recovery, virtually no lag on anything, tons of safe on shield attacks, and enough range in the neutral to out space actual disjointed attacks.

Oh, but she "has problems killing". Yeah, when was the last time you survived to 200 against her? 150? So what, she kills 10-20% later than most characters. That really makes up for being a fortress of fairs.

 

[Browny]

ZSS's downb is stupidly safe and gonna get nerfed.

So is bouncing fish (again).

I cant be bothered complaining about those moves since their just gonna get nerfed.

I love balance patches.

 

[Smog Frog]

is it practical for to reflect needles? confusion has the silliest reflect hitbox(it reflects even when the move is CLEARLY over)

 

[warionumbah2]

I hope this gets patched: The game

 

[Shaya]

Everyone's worst match up may be Sheik, not necessarily means unmanageable (please; Olimar, Pikachu, Diddy, Fox, ZSS still exist! There must be a few who still despise Rosalina... somewhere? ... other than New York)

But I personally think Sheik does very low damage per hit, she may be easiest/most consistent character to combo with in comparison to everyone else right now (ha ha, said the Zero Suits or Marios), her over reliance on bouncing fish for the kill is a problem. Needles are frustrating but I don't really feel they're broken... 's lasers were considerably better and I spent my entire Brawl career walking and power shielding these things; I get it's visually harder now, but learning the timing from the audio release isn't unfeasible (although a lot tournament LCDs not having sound is a REAL RAGE WORTHY bummer). Yes I do think they're unfair in the context of this game, but it's really all about mindset and your tournament's time limits (because that's honestly the majority of my Sheik fear, getting timed out by her, even less fear of forcing the kill on her now she can't bair punish for stocks for-ever)

Zero Suit's Flip Jump is the best burst mobility special in the game, I will guarantee it. But it has a significantly higher skill cap than bouncing fish and a lot more risk. Quick Attack is probably most usable though, hmm....

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think the only moves that need a nerf are ZSS's down-b, Luigi's down-throw, and Yoshi's n-air.

ZSS's down-b is probably the safest special in the game right now, and Luigi's d-throw can do 70% off of follow ups, and Yoshi's n-air is too fast and strong and big, especially since he has the best movement speed in the game.

I'm a Kirby main so my opinion might be biased (50:50 b o y z) but I don't think Sheik is that bad. Her damage output and killing is garbage tier, and closing off stocks is important in this game.

 

[bc1910]

^Luigi Dthrow doing 70% is pure hyperbole from a (really funny) parody video. He has to make a lot of reads to get that much off a single grab. I don't see why Dthrow should be nerfed when it's actually quite manageable for a lot of characters and nerfing it bad would probably make Luigi... well, I don't want to say useless, but he relies massively on that throw to be threatening at all.

Sheik is hardly broken lmao. If you play a character who she can just slap around the whole match then it's gonna feel that way but she is far from impenetrable. A wide variety of characters can keep up with her. Best character? Maybe. Broken? Give me a break.

Oh, flip jump? That move is stupid. Just really really dumb. But it's actually very punishable if you know how to deal with it. It's a lot less janky than moves like Spin Dash; the Sonic mains will never admit it but Sonic gets so many options from that thing that every punish is a guess.

 

[Shaya]

Please guys, just because we can combo/string into down-b which has a spike from the likes of nair, bair, fair, up air (dang it, down air would work) or three of our throws, doesn't mean it needs to get nerfed.
We don't have a real grab, remember?
Forward tilt too you say? That's meant to be a secret.

However if you're complaining about it used in neutral or as her get out of jail card? Roll ins or [much better] jump air dodges are very good, even on reaction. Get her to do that automatic and cannot be avoided without immediate use of her kick foot stool jump (hence, jump air dodge covers BOTH) she is completely ****ed until she lands. Did someone say Ganon Up Tilt Punishes? God forbid, but it's feasible.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sheik isn't broken, as she is completely beatable, but the optimal method of playing her is unfavorable for many players, including Sheik mains themselves. This is why you see a lot of aggressive Sheiks that are willing to take risks instead of the optimal campy Sheiks who will annoy you to death.

Sonic mains are pretty much the same way. Both Sheik and Sonic are completely capable of putting this game into a crawl and camp you to death, but most players are not willing to go that far.

 

[Hippieslayer]

so what is everyones view on the Bowser Jr I've been using him lately and trying to find a few mains since I'm slowly getting into the tournament scene (last one I went to at a anime con I got 4th in) and I feel like he is alot better then people give him credit for his down b is great for setting and forcing a player to react, his neutral a and side a are good for keep away, his side b is good for setting up air moves, his air attacks have alot of disjointed attacks making them safe to edge guard with and get early edge kills, and his smashes while laggy have alot fo killpower to them.

I am just saying I'm not saying I think he is S tier but when used well I think he can be in the A tier personally

He seems to suffer against characters which can rush him down. Shiek in particular. I don't know if customs might help him out with that. Anybody got some input on that?

 

[Nabbitnator]

ZSS's downb is stupidly safe and gonna get nerfed.

So is bouncing fish (again).

I cant be bothered complaining about those moves since their just gonna get nerfed.

I love balance patches.

zss' down b is easily punishable if you anti air correctly. If you block her on shield you can attempt to get yourself in an advantageous position. It gets her out of bad positions but it takes skill to make the move work.

 

[mimgrim]

Needles are just overrated to me.

Not really, at least in the context of Smash 4. They easily have a claim to best/one of the best projectile in them game. Whether or not they are broken , in the context of Smash 4 (not compared to projectiles in past Smash games because LOL Needles have nothing on some of the projectile that lived in Brawl or even Melee or Project You Know What), is up to interpretation.

I do find it silly that a character such as Sheik has access to them though.

Sheik isn't broken, as she is completely beatable, but the optimal method of playing her is unfavorable for many players, including Sheik mains themselves. This is why you see a lot of aggressive Sheiks that are willing to take risks instead of the optimal campy Sheiks who will annoy you to death.

Sonic mains are pretty much the same way. Both Sheik and Sonic are completely capable of putting this game into a crawl and camp you to death, but most players are not willing to go that far.

One of these days I will make it to a Smash 4 tournament and do this to you in a FRIENDLY.

 

[Nu~]

Sonic mains are pretty much the same way. Both Sheik and Sonic are completely capable of putting this game into a crawl and camp you to death, but most players are not willing to go that far.

I've had sonic mains do this to me.
Forces me to counter camp even harder then them.

Sonic removal from smash when?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

^Luigi Dthrow doing 70% is pure hyperbole from a (really funny) parody video. He has to make a lot of reads to get that much off a single grab. I don't see why Dthrow should be nerfed when it's actually quite manageable for a lot of characters and nerfing it bad would probably make Luigi... well, I don't want to say useless, but he relies massively on that throw to be threatening at all.

Sheik is hardly broken lmao. If you play a character who she can just slap around the whole match then it's gonna feel that way but she is far from impenetrable. A wide variety of characters can keep up with her. Best character? Maybe. Broken? Give me a break.

Oh, flip jump? That move is stupid. Just really really dumb. But it's actually very punishable if you know how to deal with it. It's a lot less janky than moves like Spin Dash; the Sonic mains will never admit it but Sonic gets so many options from that thing that every punish is a guess.

Have you ever played Luigi? Any big character can get combo'd to 70. If a Luigi reads the DI properly he can get 50% easy, and that's not the only thing that makes him good.

 

[HeroMystic]

One of these days I will make it to a Smash 4 tournament and do this to you in a FRIENDLY.

You have to get the stock lead first.

That said, I've already experienced that because my practice partner mains Sonic, and when I made a comeback, he said he could've just camped me, so I took the challenge and told him to camp as if his life depended on it.

It's impossible for Mario to make a comeback vs Sonic on Smashville. Kind of doable on FD and BF, but it's incredibly read-based and going from frame data alone, extremely unlikely. If Mario can't catch a campy Sonic, then a lot of characters can't either. Pretty much leaves ZSS, Falcon, Sheik, Pikachu(who counters this style imo), Pac-man, and Rosalina. That's a really small number.

 

[bc1910]

You have to get the stock lead first.

That said, I've already experienced that because my practice partner mains Sonic, and when I made a comeback, he said he could've just camped me, so I took the challenge and told him to camp as if his life depended on it.

It's impossible for Mario to make a comeback vs Sonic on Smashville. Kind of doable on FD and BF, but it's incredibly read-based and going from frame data alone, extremely unlikely. If Mario can't catch a campy Sonic, then a lot of characters can't either. Pretty much leaves ZSS, Falcon, Sheik, Pikachu(who counters this style imo), Pac-man, and Rosalina. That's a really small number.

Fox and Greninja can probably catch a campy Sonic as well, both run fast and have good projectiles. Sonic beats Greninja regardless though, he can't necessarily camp him but can abuse his awful OoS game better than anyone except maybe Sheik. Not sure about the Fox/Sonic MU.

Have you ever played Luigi? Any big character can get combo'd to 70. If a Luigi reads the DI properly he can get 50% easy, and that's not the only thing that makes him good.

Have you ever learned to DI the combos properly and mix up your defence? It doesn't matter who you use, Luigi is not getting a consistent 70% off a down throw vs a competent player. Possible yes, nerf-worthy no.

I would much rather buff the throw combos (read: combos, not kill confirms) of other characters than nerf Luigi's.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi's D-throw combos are a BnB but they're not the only thing he has. If any of you watched Mr. ConCon you would spot he was using every trick in the book to get a lead on Diddy and only started to go full on aggression on Game 5 when he made a solid 2-stock on ZeRo.

While I believe Luigi's mobility is a crippling flaw, it's undeniable he's basically the CQC master of this game. His D-Throw combos aren't what make him good (though it certainly helps), it's his ability to demand respect vs other CQC characters. It's likely why Diddy is now disadvantageous vs Luigi because he can't blow him up with U-throw > U-air and has to play against him like any other short-ranged character. If you can't camp Luigi it's likely you have an uphill battle against him.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not really, at least in the context of Smash 4. They easily have a claim to best/one of the best projectile in them game. Whether or not they are broken , in the context of Smash 4 (not compared to projectiles in past Smash games because LOL Needles have nothing on some of the projectile that lived in Brawl or even Melee or Project You Know What), is up to interpretation.

I do find it silly that a character such as Sheik has access to them though.

It's just that when I face Sheik, I don't think "I really gotta watch out for those needles", it's just something
that can happen and just have to deal with. They can definitely be difficult to dodge, but they're certainly not constant.
Trying to mash them out gets you a fire rate and damage output that makes Falco's Blaster seem godlike in comparison
(and on a side note, nothing will ever come close to Falco's short-hop double lasers from past games in terms of obnoxious
projectiles, as they could legitimately stop you from moving much at all). Even Dedede's Gordos can bypass needles
(not to say that she can't easily deflect with other moves, but you get the idea).

A camping Sheik is extremely unintimidating, and I find it hard to believe she can just run the clock reliably
against most of the cast, only the slow moving ones are susceptible. Bouncing Fish can be punished if it doesn't
land (especially on the ground) and her air speed is mediocre. Needles just disrupt and tack on token damage,
nothing else.

 

[Shaya]

I've been saying for a long time that you should not play Sonic on Smashville. That moving platform and his mechanics allow him to always line up the platform in a way he can abuse. It's pretty ridiculous actually.

I was once a 209% ZSS with an 80% sonic on their smashville counterpick with 8 seconds left on the clock and got a clutch back air. Catching him on that stage with that platform in mind was just not practical and I got really lucky. Meanwhile first game was like a 50 second two-stock.

As as uncanny as it sounds, Final Destination tends to be the best stage for me personally to deal with run away tactics. I think because there's a whole lot of focus on positional advantage during game play and platforms usually only get in the way of keeping someone trapped or in a terrible position (backed into a corner).

 

[bc1910]

Luigi's D-throw combos are a BnB but they're not the only thing he has. If any of you watched Mr. ConCon you would spot he was using every trick in the book to get a lead on Diddy and only started to go full on aggression on Game 5 when he made a solid 2-stock on ZeRo.

While I believe Luigi's mobility is a crippling flaw, it's undeniable he's basically the CQC master of this game. His D-Throw combos aren't what make him good (though it certainly helps), it's his ability to demand respect vs other CQC characters. It's likely why Diddy is now disadvantageous vs Luigi because he can't blow him up with U-throw > U-air and has to play against him like any other short-ranged character. If you can't camp Luigi it's likely you have an uphill battle against him.

I wouldn't be so quick to say Diddy is now disadvantageous vs Luigi, it's REALLY early days after the patch. And to be fair that 2-stock involved a Luigi Up B that could have gone horribly wrong, but since it connected ZeRo was clearly flustered and allowed Concon to build a VERY quick 89% extra credit on his second stock with no problem. That's how I saw it at least, because I saw ZeRo making mistakes in neutral (basically being more predictable) that he never usually makes otherwise. But yeah, it's definitely something to consider as part of Luigi's deadly CQC game. It's far easier to abuse his mobility than try to challenge him up close.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

As someone who mains a character that gets butchered by Sheik (customs off, anyway), the only thing I'd change about her are needles. I'd give them just soft hitstun ala Fox's D-air multi-hit instead of actual knockback/the ability to take you off the ground.

F-air is incredibly strong sure, but as long as you don't try to hard punish it and instead guess what she'll do next, you'll at least be able to function. Outside of her combos, Sheik gets garbage reward off of hit, so a few wrong guesses shouldn't cost you much.

Course, maybe I'm just seeing the game through Ganon Glasses™, where 2 hits = 10+ hits from Sheik.

I played against one of the top Sheiks recently, and 1 very minor mistake (an unsafe jab or dtilt, for instance) will lead into a huge and virtually unavoidable chain of attacks leading to death or very near death. We just don't have an answer to fair at all, honestly. You can't punish it or shield grab it. Once Sheik gets in front of you, she can keep the pressure on your shield going with fair, and all you can really do is roll away from the pressure and give up stage control.

 

[PUK]

a frame 7 move can punish shiek fair on shield, because zelda JC upB can do it. So boost kick, luigi upB, MK upB all can do it to i think.

 

[Pazzo.]

This game seems to continue to show resistance to a 'broken' character.

Diddy was close, but even in his powerful-pre-patch form, he was't unbearable. Luigi is good with D-Throw, but he'll have one heck of a time trying to move in the first place. Even Sheik, lauded for her combo game, is light and has problems killing.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

a frame 7 move can punish shiek fair on shield, because zelda JC upB can do it. So boost kick, luigi upB, MK upB all can do it to i think.

Well, I mean in the context of Ganondorf's toolkit.

 

[Trifroze]

Just a quick thought, when did inferior kill power ever hold a character back in Smash if all their other assets were amazing? I remember the same arguments being made about MK way back in 2008. He has really good frame data and range, amazing priority because of his sword and ungimpable recovery. But he's light and can't kill that well compared to most others. And then 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 happened.

 

[David Viran]

No mispace is safe from boost kick.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shiek is completely broken. What is there to even discuss? She is strong at all ranges, has outstanding frames, transcendent projectile, ungimpable recovery, virtually no lag on anything, tons of safe on shield attacks, and enough range in the neutral to out space actual disjointed attacks.

Oh, but she "has problems killing". Yeah, when was the last time you survived to 200 against her? 150? So what, she kills 10-20% later than most characters. That really makes up for being a fortress of fairs.

• Sheik has weak trades, but strong combos/strings for damaging wracking and a handful of kill set-ups.
• Some characters fall out of these combos/strings early if they fell into them at all (hi Jigglypuff).
• Rage breaks her combos/strings and lets her opposition kill earlier.
• Sheik often builds her enemies into rage...
• Honestly with the reality of Jump squat in tandem with start up many Dash Grabs are of comparable start-up speed to her actual F-air...and go through shields entirely, this coming as well at times from characters who are *faster* then her. (Why hello Falcon) and as such harder to actively roll/dodge/re-position/attack when it can't be shielded *period*.

Yeah Sheik has needles, a handful of kill-set ups and great movement specs. However you get to do this song and dance with her because of her not killing particularly well. The stock longevity just means more trade opportunities on top of the every once in awhile neutral victory. Given the earlier kill numbers of other characters in tandem with Rage (some of them being kill throws). With her B-air being nerfed to boot? Eh.

Like I've said before, a Sheik dominated meta wouldn't even be a problem.

Just a quick thought, when did inferior kill power ever hold a character back in Smash if all their other assets were amazing? I remember the same arguments being made about MK way back in 2008. He has really good frame data and range, amazing priority because of his sword and ungimpable recovery. But he's light and can't kill that well compared to most others. And then 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 happened.

When rage was built in, penalizing low-kill power by increasing the potency of high-kill power, and breaking the combos that are commonly associated with low-kill power moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

I played against one of the top Sheiks recently, and 1 very minor mistake (an unsafe jab or dtilt, for instance) will lead into a huge and virtually unavoidable chain of attacks leading to death or very near death. We just don't have an answer to fair at all, honestly. You can't punish it or shield grab it. Once Sheik gets in front of you, she can keep the pressure on your shield going with fair, and all you can really do is roll away from the pressure and give up stage control.

No denying that Sheik can easily get lengthy combos off of mistakes at low percents, but they don't come
anywhere close to killing you unless she carries you off the stage and you waste your jumps trying to escape
(another case of getting flustered against Sheik leading to stupid early death by her standards).
As for fighting fair, you just have to stay light on your feet and keep trying to maintain a position where she
can't oppress you too much with it. Just sitting in a shield when Sheik is closing in is asking for it.

Well, I mean in the context of Ganondorf's toolkit.

Dark Fists.

Otherwise, just Uair whenever she approaches from the air, you'll generally come out on top even in trades.
And Usmash is super scary too.

Just a quick thought, when did inferior kill power ever hold a character back in Smash if all their other assets were amazing? I remember the same arguments being made about MK way back in 2008. He has really good frame data and range, amazing priority because of his sword and ungimpable recovery. But he's light and can't kill that well compared to most others. And then 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 happened.

In 64 almost everyone had 0-deaths, so it was a matter of who had the easiest time getting them, and that was Pikachu
(having an infinite range Thunder with no air dodging helps too, along with a get-out-of-jail Quick Attack also granting him one of the only two good recoveries in the game).

In Melee Fox's shine just gave ludicrous combos and semi-spikes, and his Usmash and Uair were downright vicious
on top of all his L-canceled aerials and fast falling speed granting unrivaled pressure and combos. An oddity in that he was
quite vulnerable when hit unlike other top tiers but his offense was just so good and hard to counter that it made little
difference in skilled hands.

Brawl Meta Knight may not have been the absolute best at getting kills, but he was still pretty darn competent at it
with the uber-fast uair juggling people off the top, his spammable dsmash, the vicious Shuttle Loop and of course
his amazing gimp game (one of the few things mostly intact from Brawl), particularly with dair. All those options being ridiculously
safe to go for so he could easily get kills even if they didn't always come as early as others.

In short, all the past top tiers have at least been somewhat competent, if not the best at getting kills, on top of
everything else they may have had.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Eh, up-air doesn't cut it, and dark fists, while helpful, both depends on customs being on and is a read against a character as fast as Sheik. You can save your jumps all day, but even if you live, you are still boxed into a corner without any reliable options.

Upsmash is fine in neutral for trying to keep the Sheik at bay, but when she gets in--and she will get in--you won't be getting any uses out of it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fact: Mario's F-air is his worst move in his toolkit (F-tilt comes in second place).

Yet, we can still do stuff like this.

The fact it's on Luigi makes this more relevant to the discussion.

Also, apparently Socal holds the opinion that Mario is Top 5 in this game. I strongly disagree but I'm interested in the opinion of others from this thread.

 

[Asdioh]

Just a quick thought, when did inferior kill power ever hold a character back in Smash if all their other assets were amazing? I remember the same arguments being made about MK way back in 2008. He has really good frame data and range, amazing priority because of his sword and ungimpable recovery. But he's light and can't kill that well compared to most others. And then 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 happened.

Wasn't this literally Brawl Sheik's problem? She was a good character that had little kill power.

Fact: Mario's F-air is his worst move in his toolkit (F-tilt comes in second place).

Yet, we can still do stuff like this.

The fact it's on Luigi makes this more relevant to the discussion.

Also, apparently Socal holds the opinion that Mario is Top 5 in this game. I strongly disagree but I'm interested in the opinion of others from this thread.

@DtJ XeroXen is da bess

 

[mimgrim]

It's just that when I face Sheik, I don't think "I really gotta watch out for those needles", it's just something
that can happen and just have to deal with. They can definitely be difficult to dodge, but they're certainly not constant.
Trying to mash them out gets you a fire rate and damage output that makes Falco's Blaster seem godlike in comparison
(and on a side note, nothing will ever come close to Falco's short-hop double lasers from past games in terms of obnoxious
projectiles, as they could legitimately stop you from moving much at all). Even Dedede's Gordos can bypass needles
(not to say that she can't easily deflect with other moves, but you get the idea).

A camping Sheik is extremely unintimidating, and I find it hard to believe she can just run the clock reliably
against most of the cast, only the slow moving ones are susceptible. Bouncing Fish can be punished if it doesn't
land (especially on the ground) and her air speed is mediocre. Needles just disrupt and tack on token damage,
nothing else.

Sheik's air speed isn't mediocre. It's above average (she is tied at 11th with Megaman, Duck Hunt, and Falcon; http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ ). Mediocre/average is more along the lines at Little Mac aerials.

No Sheik worth their salt is going to legitimately going to use BF in the neutral, it's use is as a combo finisher and an escape tool while in disadvantage.

Sheik NEVER has to approach thanks to Needles, this is even true against character with a much larger focus on a projectile game, and she can handle being approached extremely well, better then when she approaches, thanks to her extremely safe kit.

A good camping Sheik is ****ing scary. Stop playing against bad ones.

Fact: Mario's F-air is his worst move in his toolkit (F-tilt comes in second place).

Yet, we can still do stuff like this.

The fact it's on Luigi makes this more relevant to the discussion.

Also, apparently Socal holds the opinion that Mario is Top 5 in this game. I strongly disagree but I'm interested in the opinion of others from this thread.

I could see him as MAYBE being POTENTIALLY top 10, though I think top 15 is probably more likely.

Mario being a more given a more focused play-style of a speedster who wants to get in rather then a jack of all trade, master of none helped him out a lot and compliments him much better, I think.