Character Competitive Impressions

[Browny]

Just lol. Thats like saying Brawl Ganondorf was a good character that had little mobility.

No, she was a mediocre character because of her little kill power.

 

[Sleek Media]

Once again, I ask: how often do you survive to 150% against Shiek? How about 200%? What constitutes "having trouble killing" on this board?

 

[Asdioh]

Once again, I ask: how often do you survive to 150% against Shiek? How about 200%? What constitutes "having trouble killing" on this board?

I often survive to 150+ as one of the lightest characters in the game. This rarely happens against anyone besides Sheik.

Just lol. Thats like saying Brawl Ganondorf was a good character that had little mobility.

No, she was a mediocre character because of her little kill power.

Reread the question? Brawl Sheik was blatantly held back by weak KO moves, otherwise her kit was very good.

 

[Radical Larry]

If you guys hold Down on the control stick and jump, you don't go into fast fall. However, whenever you perform any attack with the C-Stick, you immediately go into fast fall. Why is this? Has it been discovered already? And if so, is there already a name for it?

Those questions aside, people need to be using SHFFFC (Short Hop Fast Fall Frame Cancel) more often with Ganondorf since it can allow him to FC with some ease with his aerials. If people can master that, then Ganondorf could be more viable.

Once again, I ask: how often do you survive to 150% against Shiek? How about 200%? What constitutes "having trouble killing" on this board?

I survived at around 400% with Ganondorf, so Sheik has some fairly weak KO power. I'm not kidding either, the Sheik player basically just toyed with me until I just ended the match with Flame Choke on her.

I often survive to 150+ as one of the lightest characters in the game. This rarely happens against anyone besides Sheik.

Reread the question? Brawl Sheik was blatantly held back by weak KO moves, otherwise her kit was very good.

Smash 4 Sheik's KO moves are still weak, aside from Bouncing Fish, Vanish and Up Smash, which are basically her strongest moves. I know for a fact that Sheik's normal moveset was nerfed to horrid standards compared to Brawl. (Her Brawl normal moveset was far better to use)

 

[Browny]

Reread the question? Brawl Sheik was blatantly held back by weak KO moves, otherwise her kit was very good.

Yes but that argument applies to every character

Sonic was a good character blatantly held back by lack of fast KO moves
DK was a good character blatantly held back by DDD
Luigi was a good character blatantly held back by range

If a character is good, they dont need excuses to cover up their flaws, they prefer to win matches.

Brawl sheik was mediocre because she lacked kill power. She couldnt win matches because of her lack of kill power. She couldnt win matches because she was mediocre.

if A=B and B=C then A=C

 

[san.]

Brawl Sheik also had poor air speed and a pretty punishable recovery.

Just kill power is something like Brawl Sonic (who also had generally mediocre frame data attacks) or Peach.

 

[Radical Larry]

Brawl Sheik also had poor air speed and a pretty punishable recovery.

Just kill power is something like Brawl Sonic or Peach.

Still applies quite well to this game if I remember correctly. She can only move around great if she uses Bouncing Fish, which ironically enough, can be punished. Once Bouncing Fish gets punished, you'll need luck to get back on stage as it can only be used once in air.

 

[mimgrim]

Still applies quite well to this game if I remember correctly. She can only move around great if she uses Bouncing Fish, which ironically enough, can be punished. Once Bouncing Fish gets punished, you'll need luck to get back on stage as it can only be used once in air.

Sheik's air speed isn't mediocre. It's above average (she is tied at 11th with Megaman, Duck Hunt, and Falcon; http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ ). Mediocre/average is more along the lines at Little Mac aerials.

Literally just posted it on the the page before this one.

>_>

 

[meleebrawler]

Sheik's air speed isn't mediocre. It's above average (she is tied at 11th with Megaman, Duck Hunt, and Falcon; http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ ). Mediocre/average is more along the lines at Little Mac aerials.

No Sheik worth their salt is going to legitimately going to use BF in the neutral, it's use is as a combo finisher and an escape tool while in disadvantage.

Sheik NEVER has to approach thanks to Needles, this is even true against character with a much larger focus on a projectile game, and she can handle being approached extremely well, better then when she approaches, thanks to her extremely safe kit.

A good camping Sheik is ****ing scary. Stop playing against bad ones.

Well, there's a difference between the "camping" used when looking for opportunities to attack (defensive play), as
opposed to the kind used to maintain a lead until the clock runs. In the former regard I'll admit she can be pretty effective
(and I'm not disputing her position at all). Still, no matter how badly she's winning or losing, she still has to engage
in close combat fairly frequently which is never without risk, even for someone like Sheik. I may have underestimated
her air speed, but it's still relatively easy to follow and she only has Bouncing Fish as a burst mobility option, so only
very slow characters have trouble catching one who is determined to stay away.

tl;dr: Even if Sheik "never has to approach", she definitely can't stall as well as others and still generally
has to engage in close combat. She's just fortunately very good at that.

 

[Radical Larry]

Literally just posted it on the the page before this one.

>_>

Well honestly, her aerial speed may be the 11th place, but it's not that good still. Sheik has those extremely high jumps, so I guess that's the reason I see her aerial speed as a tad bit slow.

 

[san.]

Smash 4 Sheik's air speed is great.

Brawl's on the other hand...

Maximum Air Speed

1. Yoshi (1.32)
2. Jigglypuff (1.27)
3. Wario (1.22)
3. Wolf (1.22)
5. Captain Falcon (1.18)
6. Sonic (1.11)
7. Donkey Kong (1.08)
7. Mr. Game & Watch (1.08)
7. Squirtle (1.08)
10. Lucas (1.05)
11. Bowser (1.03)
11. Marth (1.03)
11. Zero Suit Samus (1.03)
14. Charizard (0.99)
14. Lucario (0.99)
14. Samus (0.99)
14. Zelda (0.99)
18. Ness (0.96)
19. Mario (0.94)
19. Snake (0.94)
19. Toon Link (0.94)
22. Ike (0.92)
23. Pikachu (0.91)
24. Falco (0.89)
24. Fox (0.89)
24. Peach (0.89)
24. Pit (0.89)
24. R.O.B. (0.89)
29. Ganondorf (0.85)
29. Kirby (0.85)
29. Sheik (0.85)
32. Diddy Kong (0.83)
33. Olimar (0.82)
34. Link (0.81)
35. Ice Climbers (0.77)
36. Ivysaur (0.75)
36. Meta Knight (0.75)
38. Luigi (0.73)
39. King Dedede (0.66)

 

[deepseadiva]

Fact: Mario's F-air is his worst move in his toolkit (F-tilt comes in second place).

Yet, we can still do stuff like this.

The fact it's on Luigi makes this more relevant to the discussion.

Also, apparently Socal holds the opinion that Mario is Top 5 in this game. I strongly disagree but I'm interested in the opinion of others from this thread.

Yaaas and share so many of the same exemplary traits. Glad people are finally realizing this aint Brawl.

Why do people shun though? I'm honestly not informed about him, but why do people usually rank him so low after the two brothers? Is it just the lack of invincibility on the upb??

 

[mimgrim]

Well honestly, her aerial speed may be the 11th place, but it's not that good still. Sheik has those extremely high jumps, so I guess that's the reason I see her aerial speed as a tad bit slow.

....I'm not even going to bother.

Well, there's a difference between the "camping" used when looking for opportunities to attack (defensive play), as
opposed to the kind used to maintain a lead until the clock runs. In the former regard I'll admit she can be pretty effective
(and I'm not disputing her position at all). Still, no matter how badly she's winning or losing, she still has to engage
in close combat fairly frequently which is never without risk, even for someone like Sheik. I may have underestimated
her air speed, but it's still relatively easy to follow and she only has Bouncing Fish as a burst mobility option, so only
very slow characters have trouble catching one who is determined to stay away.

tl;dr: Even if Sheik "never has to approach", she definitely can't stall as well as others and still generally
has to engage in close combat. She's just fortunately very good at that.

*sigh*

A character with her mobility specs and extremely safe tool-kit with a very good projectile does really good at running the clock. I'm sure someone like @ Shaya could explain far better then I ever could but here goes a shot.

First off she limits your approaching options with Needles, making how you approach her more linear then normal. Secondly, you have to be extremely careful when approaching because of her safe tool-kit, which only serves to work to her advantage, meaning it is going to be a slow process overall. Thirdly, thanks to her mobility, she can just keep on running away while harassing anyone who tries to keep up with her in the process, because, again, of her safe tool-kit. Like Sonic, she more then has the capacity to slow the game down to a crawl, which is basically the general idea of running the clock.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yaaas and share so many of the same exemplary traits. Glad people are finally realizing this aint Brawl.

Why do people shun though? I'm honestly not informed about him, but why do people usually rank him so low after the two brothers? Is it just the lack of invincibility on the upb??

He's slow, has very low jumps and has a tie for the worst recovery in the game (he's tied with Little Mac). Because of these alone he has trouble getting in, and his Megavitamins are poor at giving a good projectile.

Although he's one of four characters who can successfully string U-Smashes into themselves, the other three being Ganondorf, Luigi and Mario, and has a pretty impressive Up B in terms of knockback.

Though with customs, his issues with recovery and projectile came can be addressed.

 

[deepseadiva]

Op, yea, bad recovery will squash a lot of potential.

I thought he had Luigi's Tornado? I was hoping Doc could have been the great bridge between Mario and Luigi.

 

[Radical Larry]

Op, yea, bad recovery will squash a lot of potential.

I thought he had Luigi's Tornado? I was hoping Doc could have been the great bridge between Mario and Luigi.

Doc's Tornado isn't near as good as Luigi's. Luigi can easily recover due to his floaty nature and unlike Doc, his tornado covers a great distance on land and in air. Doc's tornado is poor on the ground and a horrible move to use on it as such. It's better to bait opponents and use Doc Tornado from the air on grounded opponents.

Let's remember, Doc's recovery is like Mario's, it has a linear path and stops you in your tracks at the end, but has less range. But on the ground, it's superb at getting surprise hits off your opponents, best to not use it in air unless you want to really rush in hard.

 

[ToonKake]

I dont kno if Dis is a Bit much but Can Some one Give me the BEST Advice Wen Handling Matchups Against Rosa Useing Sonic ???

 

[TTTTTsd]

All of Doc's flaws come down to mostly his mobility and his recovery (which in turn is bad because of his air mobility). Outside of that while he has a few things worse (and better) than Mario on paper (Jab, Up+B, Smashes, damage output overall) the mobility holds him back.

He's not terrible, but he's not good either. Not remarkably awful but not great either. The removal of strong vectoring helped him a lot, and rage helps too with surprise Up+Bs. Doc Tornado is also a really good edgeguard/on-stage priority move (the former more than the latter).

With customs IMO he's middle, no this is not a cop out answer, it's a straight up upgrade for Doc in pretty much all aspects, neutral, recovery, punish game, virtually everything gets better. It only fails to patch up his mobility but the options offered by Customs help offset this problem a little bit, mainly patching up neutral and recovery. Mobility holds him back from being super god with Customs.

That being said Vanilla no-customs Doc is still alright as a pocket dude if you ever consider playing him. His strong punish game is nice to have if you don't need Mario's movement.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doc's buffed fair is totally awesome.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's buffed fair is totally awesome.

It was stronger than Ganon's pre-patch and now it's just insane. I think it does 16% clean now and hits like an atomic bomb.

Basically if you can land this move at a moderately high % it's probably your stock. It's hard to land in retrospect but the reward is crazy.

I think his new UpSmash angle is more favorable for him overall too, as it sends people offstage at a behind him angle. I think Doc has more options to cover that than sending them directly above. Doc kind of wants you offstage for Bair/Tornado anyways.

 

[deepseadiva]

I dont kno if Dis is a Bit much but Can Some one Give me the BEST Advice Wen Handling Matchups Against Rosa Useing Sonic ???

okay here iz wut chu do furst u have 2 use the spinerncharge den u use da springer and den da downairz

 

[Ulevo]

I think Doc is underrated. I am not sure about the physical hitbox data, but the match up between Meta Knight vs Mario seems at best even for Mario, if not 6:4 in Meta Knight's favor. Whenever I play against Doc though, it feels much harder simply because a lot of Doc's hitboxes trade well while as with Mario it feels like Meta Knight simply wins each exchange.

For whatever its worth.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Doc is underrated. I am not sure about the physical hitbox data, but the match up between Meta Knight vs Mario seems at best even for Mario, if not 6:4 in Meta Knight's favor. Whenever I play against Doc though, it feels much harder simply because a lot of Doc's hitboxes trade well while as with Mario it feels like Meta Knight simply wins each exchange.

For whatever its worth.

Doc leaves less room for error since he basically totes Mario's frame data and hitboxes but more damage on most of them, but I think Meta Knight has more options vs. him overall thanks to Doc's mobility. I could change my mind on it, I flipflop a lot and it is worth noting that Doc has very good data for trading. Doc is easier to intercept offstage (without customs) as well. I don't think he greatly loses vs. Meta Knight, I bounce around where I think the MU is.

I do believe Doc has one of the best shield options in the game however, strictly with just Up+B (Kill move via rage that's also B reversible on hitlag/sweetspot and comes out Frame 3 with an easy to land sweetspot?), and Up+B is great within strings too if you want to do stuff like Uair into Up+B to catch people sleeping.

 

[Ulevo]

Doc leaves less room for error since he basically totes Mario's frame data and hitboxes but more damage on most of them, but I think Meta Knight has more options vs. him overall thanks to Doc's mobility. I could change my mind on it, I flipflop a lot and it is worth noting that Doc has very good data for trading. Doc is easier to intercept offstage (without customs) as well. I don't think he greatly loses vs. Meta Knight, I bounce around where I think the MU is.

I do believe Doc has some of the most flexible shield options in the game however, strictly with just Up+B (Kill move via rage that's also B reversible on hitlag/sweetspot and comes out Frame 3 with an easy to land sweetspot?), and Up+B is great within strings too if you want to do stuff like Uair into Up+B to catch people sleeping.

It's not the frame data, but the hitbox sizes that feel different. I don't think this is in Doc's favor, I just think he has an easier time in neutral thanks to hitbox size differences and the fact that he hits harder, combined with his fall speed. Again though, this is based on feel. I'd have to see actual footage of differences.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doc is probably the most underrated character in the game competitively right now. Having a 3 frame reversal that KILLS and can also be used in the air is nuts. Plus his SH aerials are very good at hitting short characters unlike Mario's (with a 14% B-air no less), and his low edgeguards are almost as scary as Ganon's between Tornado and D-air.

The main thing that sucks for him is he gets bodied by ZSS, because he has trouble chasing her Down-B.

 

[Ulevo]

Doc is probably the most underrated character in the game competitively right now. Having a 3 frame reversal that KILLS and can also be used in the air is nuts. Plus his SH aerials are very good at hitting short characters unlike Mario's (with a 14% B-air no less), and his low edgeguards are almost as scary as Ganon's between Tornado and D-air.

The main thing that sucks for him is he gets bodied by ZSS, because he has trouble chasing her Down-B.

Along with Donkey Kong and Meta Knight, I would agree he is likely the most underrated.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Since I just noticed these posts.

As as uncanny as it sounds, Final Destination tends to be the best stage for me personally to deal with run away tactics. I think because there's a whole lot of focus on positional advantage during game play and platforms usually only get in the way of keeping someone trapped or in a terrible position (backed into a corner).

I seem to be the only Ganon main who prefers FD over BF, and not just simply because runaway is more limited, but also because platforms get in the way of land traps (you don't need to tell me that Ganon can cover entire platforms with his U-air and N-air, this overall however is much weaker than what he can do when you're forced to land right next to him). And I increasingly believe that Smashville should not be a neutral stage the more I notice the platform promoting degenerative gameplay.

He seems to suffer against characters which can rush him down. Shiek in particular. I don't know if customs might help him out with that. Anybody got some input on that?

My opinion is that Bowser Jr's F-smash buff is secretly amazing for addressing his weakness to rushdown, because the up-angled version is actually a seriously good anti-air now that the move whiffs far less. But that remains to be seen in tournament.

Wasn't this literally Brawl Sheik's problem? She was a good character that had little kill power.

Aside from the Ice Climbers ruining the game, Brawl Sheik also had one of the worst recoveries in the game. She was extremely strong in neutral and still could edgeguard and KO confirm almost as well as the best characters (if you factor grab release DACUS), but she was also very fragile at the same time and basically met her demise offstage when her short recovery left her vulnerable to traps and gimps.

 

[bc1910]

MK is definitely the most underrated, both on paper and seemingly in practice since he has some actual tournament results. People are starting to realise how good this character is.

Beyond that it's hard to say, and I've heard everyone besides like 5 characters described as underrated.

Actually make that 4 characters, people have said Diddy is underrated since 1.06 lmao

 

[Yonder]

All of Doc's flaws come down to mostly his mobility and his recovery (which in turn is bad because of his air mobility). Outside of that while he has a few things worse (and better) than Mario on paper (Jab, Up+B, Smashes, damage output overall) the mobility holds him back.

He's not terrible, but he's not good either. Not remarkably awful but not great either. The removal of strong vectoring helped him a lot, and rage helps too with surprise Up+Bs. Doc Tornado is also a really good edgeguard/on-stage priority move (the former more than the latter).

With customs IMO he's middle, no this is not a cop out answer, it's a straight up upgrade for Doc in pretty much all aspects, neutral, recovery, punish game, virtually everything gets better. It only fails to patch up his mobility but the options offered by Customs help offset this problem a little bit, mainly patching up neutral and recovery. Mobility holds him back from being super god with Customs.

That being said Vanilla no-customs Doc is still alright as a pocket dude if you ever consider playing him. His strong punish game is nice to have if you don't need Mario's movement.

I love customs Doc, I really do. Fast capsule helps his approach, the tornado that makes him recovery super high, and Ol 1 2 for extra kill power...definitely mid like you said or even upper mid. With customs all he really has left as a problem is mobility...actually customs doc is kind of like a Luigi who can combo/rack damage less but kill earlier. I think normal Doc is a low tier but not horrible by any means, he still has a fast moveset mixed with a ton of power. Pills are average.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik isn't broken, as she is completely beatable, but the optimal method of playing her is unfavorable for many players, including Sheik mains themselves. This is why you see a lot of aggressive Sheiks that are willing to take risks instead of the optimal campy Sheiks who will annoy you to death.

Sonic mains are pretty much the same way. Both Sheik and Sonic are completely capable of putting this game into a crawl and camp you to death, but most players are not willing to go that far.

Bruh

You have never played my Sheik.

Speaking of which, if the meta turns into footstool set-ups and combos then everyone needs to be afraid of Sheik. She can set them up off really good options. F-tilt, f-throw, d-throw, d-tilt (super tight timing and very percent dependent.) She has nair and Bair to set-up the lock after the footstool. Can easily get a 0 to 40% combo from one set-up. Maybe more with burst grenade or paralyzing needle set-ups. I gotta experiment.

 

[san.]

The buffs to swordfighter's bread and butter makes me believe he no longer is in the bottom tier realm of power and closer to the middle of the pack. He probably has one of the best boxing games now, and is only held back by mediocre fair and bair that create gaps in his spacing since fair is slow+no autocancel and bair has short reach and isn't fast/strong enough compared to other bairs.

Dtilt's damage buff now makes it one of the best quick dtilts in the game. To put it into perspective, the dtilt is 2 frames faster than Pikachu's dtilt, 1 frame more lag, quite a bit more range, and tons more disjoint. It can lead into itself and grabs at low percent, as well as nair, uair, and/or fair from early to middle-high percents. Swordsman still has one of the best running pivot drifts in the game, allowing him to approach grounded opponents with the buffed dtilt or airborne opponents with utilt.

Nair's damage change gives more hitstun for a little more combo potential and a lot more string potential. It also helps ease the disadvantage of sluggish movement.

I don't need to speak about jab1/2, utilt, uair, and dash attack. All 4 are great moves with a lot of combo, kill, and/or mixup potential.

I overlooked his specials and learned that they do have some uses after all.

The gale strike neutral B is decent out of a retreating shorthop. The whirlwind ends up dipping down while in the air, extending its area of effect in front of you. I believe it also gets rid of annoying special clanking. I have seen it hit a shield 6 times before passing. It's weak vs. high air speed punishes and up close, but if the opponent isn't quick enough, they'll have to deal with disjointed utilts and uairs. You can also combo out of it if it's used out of short hop.

Slash Launcher side B is.. alright. It has a superior stabbing hitbox and it slides farther, allowing for an easy punish out of a pivot. Opponents are also put into a bad position if successfully hit. Still, the damage is low and it's pretty bad for recovery so there's that.

Hero's spin upB was buffed to kill quite early. For a frame 8 OoS with nice horizontal reach, that's quite good. The kill power is noticeably higher than even Link's upB. Other than the superior knockback/decreased damage and range, it's almost identical in function to Link's.

Power Thrust surprised me with its niche uses. It's pretty much Falcon Kick with better disjoint and better knockback angle since opponents are launched horizontally instead of vertically. It's a nice mixup with dair if you want something slightly quicker with halted momentum and great range. The feature that surprised me was that it could be used as a recovery since it sends you a fair distance horizontal. It helps you get to the ledge more quickly so the opponent would have a tougher time setting up a countermeasure.

Counter is identical to Marth's, activating on frame 5. It's pretty decent since he lacks quick aerials, unlike Marth, and it doesn't have Ike's poor activation time.

Reflector is Mario's cape. It's decent, but not as good as I thought and would only use it against projectile-heavy characters.

The only moves I think are bad are: bair since its range is pitiful without much damage, dsmash since its range is pitiful with high amounts of lag, and usmash since its launching hitbox is way too tiny and the slashing hitboxes are way too tiny horizontally. Fair and ftilt are niche but decentish.

Overall, specials aren't necessarily crap and normals are decent. Air movement is mediocre, boxing game is great, and combo breaking is bad.

 

[andimidna]

If the meta turns into footstool set ups and combos will become a monster lol

 

[Ffamran]

If the meta turns into footstool set ups and combos will become a monster lol

Well, she is or was known as Princess Toadstool. If it does become true, then she'll be Princess Footstool and getting stepped on by heels isn't exactly fun.

Luigi should already be able to footstool easily since he can Dair out of his D-throw. I hope Boss pulls off some wacky footstool combos.

 

[Blobface]

Once again, I ask: how often do you survive to 150% against Shiek? How about 200%? What constitutes "having trouble killing" on this board?

Sheik basically has a range of % where you have to worry about being edgeguarded (varies from character to character). Once Fair starts sending you too far away to juggle and too far up to edgeguard, she loses basically all her kill power until you reach a high enough % that F-air and F-tilt kill you, which is usually well above 150%

@Scarlet Jile believe me I never meant that Ganondorf doesn't have a horrendous matchup against Sheik. I'm just saying that she's far from unbeatable.

Also, Ganon v Sheik is improved immensely by Dark Fists + Dropkick. Ganondorf becomes impossible to gimp, and if Sheik starts abusing F-air too much, you can whip out Dark Fists and get a <40% kill. Since F-air juggles/F-air spacing basically screw Ganon over anyway, there's no harm in whiffing either since that's the exact same situation you'd be in if you just got hit by F-air.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Sorry to bring up some Sheik salt again, but I am starting to find her kind of ridiculous. Pretty much everything has been said but what I feel is the biggest issue is the absurd safety of fair.

IMO any time one move so thoroughly invalidates (by making them sub-optimal) so much of a characters moveset, theres a problem. Why do anything else when fair always has the best risk/reward? All it really needs is like 1 more frame of landing lag, something to make fair walls actually managable. It is my single gripe but its a big one for me.

Diddy shares, to a lesser extent now, the same sort of problem with his fair and uair, and once players get better at utilizing the banana for kill confirms, people will realize that he is still top5 so long as those two moves retain their absurd frame data and hit boxes. Heck Im all for reissuing some of their kill power if theyre made less braindead to throw out.

Since Luigis been brought up, I think he is very well balanced, but wouldnt mind something like increased kbg on downthrow, (its not set kb right?) or possibly less hitstun on it, something to give some counterplay to his grab kill confirms. It seems like d-throw to cyclone is nearly guarunteed, and I would like to see some options available for the one being thrown. At least Ness has to grab you near the ledge. Of course it might be escapable if done correctly and I havent seen it yet, in which case Luigi is fine, l2p.

Last bit of salt, I still think Rosalina is way too good at avoiding people without Luma. The only way I can think of balancing it between competitive and casual though would be through something like a scaling Luma respawn timer. First Luma comes back in 12 seconds, then an additional 2 seconds for every Luma afterwards, resetting with a stock. Would really reward players for consistantly targeting Luma and punish Rosalina players who cant do anything without her.

Anyways, as always, others opinions are much appreciated.

 

[Smog Frog]

you get a choice between . , , and to remove from the game. who would you pick and why?

 

[Teshie U]

Luma "death penalty" should definitely have been a thing. If protecting luma was as important as protecting nana, the character would be much deeper.

It also would be nice if she didn't have such annoying rolls/airdodges to avoid you for 10 seconds with, but thats true of almost the entire cast.

 

[Freezie KO]

you get a choice between . , , and to remove from the game. who would you pick and why?

Why Olimar?

Anyway, easy choice. Sonic. He's the only character I actually don't enjoy playing against at all. Even when I'm winning.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

you get a choice between . , , and to remove from the game. who would you pick and why?

None.

I don't have a particular problem with any character in the game. Throw on a very, very minor nerf to Sheik's Fair and Needles, and I don't see a need to nerf anybody else in the top tiers. Just buffing the lower portion of the cast.

 

[deepseadiva]

The buffs to swordfighter's bread and butter makes me believe he no longer is in the bottom tier realm of power and closer to the middle of the pack. He probably has one of the best boxing games now, and is only held back by mediocre fair and bair that create gaps in his spacing since fair is slow+no autocancel and bair has short reach and isn't fast/strong enough compared to other bairs.

Dtilt's damage buff now makes it one of the best quick dtilts in the game. To put it into perspective, the dtilt is 2 frames faster than Pikachu's dtilt, 1 frame more lag, quite a bit more range, and tons more disjoint. It can lead into itself and grabs at low percent, as well as nair, uair, and/or fair from early to middle-high percents. Swordsman still has one of the best running pivot drifts in the game, allowing him to approach grounded opponents with the buffed dtilt or airborne opponents with utilt.

Nair's damage change gives more hitstun for a little more combo potential and a lot more string potential. It also helps ease the disadvantage of sluggish movement.

I don't need to speak about jab1/2, utilt, uair, and dash attack. All 4 are great moves with a lot of combo, kill, and/or mixup potential.

I overlooked his specials and learned that they do have some uses after all.

I'm was gonna say it's hard to believe a character who's fastest ground move is a frame 5 dtilt could have "one of the best boxing games" but I realized Palutena gets by on her even slower ass jab.

I don't know about "best boxing games" when Falcon, Fox, Mac, Rosalina, Yoshi, all the Mario brothers are in that group.