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Character Competitive Impressions

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Trifroze

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I think he just does too much damage for his hitbox sizes, range, mobility and weight. 1-2% damage off a lot of his moves would probably put him in a good spot. I also think if players were using him near his maximum potential we'd all be perpetually vomiting (from excitement, maybe).
Are you actually suggesting that a heavy nerf to a character who's possibly not even top 10 would put him in a good spot? Just fill me out whether we're on the same page here. With this in mind, what do you consider should be done about the likes of Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Mario, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Yoshi and Pikachu who many mid and high level players alike consider to be above him?

Sonic is silly. CF is not silly so much as abusive. Sonic I probably have less of an issue with simply because at this point 6WX is the only Sonic to ever beat me in tourney. I have obliterated every other Sonic to cross my path and that's not with Crescent Slash, but with default Marth.

CF however, even when I fight someone that is weaker then me I still have to be on my A game because honestly risk v reward is kinda borked. To beat him I basically have to allow myself in his territory then rely on defensive pivot based techniques to net a grab, d-tilt or dancing blade and get him in the air and go for resets. Something he can do far easier and more reliably. Which makes no sense because when you look at his moves he is clearly meant to be a combo oriented character and heavy punisher, not a hard-core trap based character but the mobility allows for it. It does add a layer of complexity to his game and I see alot of potential but again all I see is basic stuff and CF players are not pushing that aspect of his game the way they should imo.

Edit: There is @Gawain for CF, but the CF community doesnt seem to be implementing his meta findings into their gameplay which is a shame because he comes up with some sick ****.
There isn't much you can do with Falcon aside from reacting better, making less mistakes (technical and mental) and going for better reads. He's a very fundamental based character and since he's good he will naturally shut down characters like Marth. You can say that about most of the best characters in this game. There is barely any difference how fast characters like Falcon, Sonic, ZSS, Sheik, Fox, Mac, Greninja, Diddy and MK etc close out distances at mid range all the way to half a stage across. This has been measured in frames using dash attacks and grabs, but Falcon is the fastest overall by a margin of a few frames depending on the exact distance. He has higher rewards than anyone else but bigger weaknesses than anyone else bar Mac, which is why Mac isn't a very good character unlike most of the others listed. I think you're either refusing to learn the matchup or not accepting the fact that most top/high tiers in the game can shut your character down in some way, usually by a superior neutral and bigger rewards like Falcon. So, now you're venting the frustration here along with others who refuse to learn their Falcon matchups, making extraordinary claims out of nowhere while underestimating the weaknesses of the character because Falcon being op and dumb is the current trend here and it's easier to agree than disagree.

I've found plenty of things with Falcon and shared them on the boards, like Falcon being able to run over Diddy's bananas and the last half or so of PK fire without tripping/being hit during his initial dash, being able to do a shorthop uair -> second jump before landing if done frame perfect (easy because you can buffer the second jump at least) allowing for some new combos versus the taller half of the cast, the custom side b 3 boost tech that I later realized was found already but no one ever mentioned it (I assume it wasn't publicly very well spread), crossup dair actually being safe on shield, dair into usmash being a true 38% combo at a variety of percents, bair into JC usmash being a combo at a variety of percents etc. I doubt many people outside of some Falcon mains knew downwards angled fsmash used to do tons more knockback before 1.0.6 either or that it's 1 frame slower and does 1% more damage, same with upwards angled one which is now the strongest variation. On a side note, most might also not know the ledge vulnerability is (at least) 2 frames instead of 1, point being that sometimes you have to find the information yourself or at least take a look at the boards before claiming it isn't there like you did. Falcons aren't implementing these things because hardly anyone that's world top level i.e. someone you'd see on streams of large tournaments visits the boards let alone mains Falcon and cares about the specifics of the character. He's a secondary or a pocket character to a lot of players. The footstool combos are really cool but hard to pull off versus an opponent pressing buttons or DI'ing and hence probably unrewarding, although I'll welcome time proving me wrong any day. The nair footstool on floaties seems promising so far.

EDIT: Fatality good tho
 
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the king of murder

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oh..my....GAH!!!! A CF that knows the power of Nair.

Too ****ing sexy.

Also..this


Can't wait to see this stuff become standard.
I wanna ask how many characters have these sick Footstool combos? Right now I only know of Falcon and Ganondorf but if we could implement into other charcters......that would definitely push the meta in general. Sadly I can't see someone like Ike having this because all of his aerials have too much knockback though Ike can use Nair and start comboing.

Edit: Oops I was actually wrong about Ike. Ike can Footstool->Dair. Still can't get a forced get up it seems. :/

Btw with sick footstool combos I mean stuff like the video above or this http://gfycat.com/PartialEvergreenFulmar which basically forces a getup and guaranteed follow up.
 
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san.

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I was messing with this for Ike a few months back. Dair isn't that practical since you'll need to follow the opponent's horizontal movement after the fast fall. However Nair works just fine and leads into grabs or more footstools.

Nair-dthrow-footstool-nair-dthrow-footstool-nair-footstool-nair-fair works fine and does 70ish. It's too easy to miss with fair, or at least for me.
 

bc1910

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Many players are considering fewer and fewer of those characters to actually be above Falcon since 1.06. I don't believe he does need to be nerfed (not yet at least) but if he WAS gonna get changed, I would be happier to see Falcon nerfed than Mario, Luigi, Ness, Yoshi and probably Zero Suit.
 

the king of murder

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I was messing with this for Ike a few months back. Dair isn't that practical since you'll need to follow the opponent's horizontal movement after the fast fall. However Nair works just fine and leads into grabs or more footstools.

Nair-dthrow-footstool-nair-dthrow-footstool-nair-footstool-nair-fair works fine and does 70ish. It's too easy to miss with fair, or at least for me.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing with Nair because it retains it's combo abilities even in the mid to high percents and it seems to rack up insane damage with proper use of footstool. I would imagine that Footstool Dair, if fresh, is a good kill move at higher percent where the combos stop working.
 

bc1910

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I wanna ask how many characters have these sick Footstool combos? Right now I only know of Falcon and Ganondorf but if we could implement into other charcters......that would definitely push the meta in general. Sadly I can't see someone like Ike having this because all of his aerials have too much knockback though Ike can use Nair and start comboing.

Edit: Oops I was actually wrong about Ike. Ike can Footstool->Dair. Still can't get a forced get up it seems. :/

Btw with sick footstool combos I mean stuff like the video above or this http://gfycat.com/PartialEvergreenFulmar which basically forces a getup and guaranteed follow up.
Quite a few characters have these kinds of combos. Greninja is one of them actually, he has similar "locks" that can deal about 63% damage off of a Nair at 0%.

Footstool combos are overrated in general since people seem to forget you can DI the footstool and escape followups. If you have good aerial mobility it's even easier to DI away. These kind of thing are cool in training but only happen once in a blue moon in practice, like MK's Uair strings off the top. Of course, I could be wrong, the effectiveness of these combos will come down to option coverage.
 

warionumbah2

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Uair strings are braindead. Like it takes so little skill to pull off, yes including uair strings to death up top.

Its why you shouldn't take MK to helberd. Foostool into dtilt lock is rare to pull off but DA --> FH Uair --> Foostool --> FF Bair. Is less precise to pull off and the bair sets up a free grab for MK.

Edit

It works without MK killing himself lol.
 
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Firefoxx

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Fatality and Max Ketchum (and kind of ZeRo when he actually tries and isn't just styling on people) are probably the best Falcons in America. Both of them just play Falcon... better than everyone else, though Fatality is probs a step above Max. Max still has a problem that many Falcons have, you can see him fishing for Raptor Boost from a mile away.

I rag on Falcon's hitboxes and stuff because they are absurd, but he kind of needs them. If I understand correctly, one of the (many) things that held him back in Brawl was his "low priority" which in Smash just means small hitboxes. If he had to be nerfed, I would much rather see damage reductions than hitbox reductions. It would still allow him to have some priority, let him combo and style more and make boring flow chart Falcon worse.

But yeah, I really hope Fatality gets more of a spotlight, cause his Falcon has changed the way I look at/play the character.
 

Ulevo

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Fatality and Max Ketchum (and kind of ZeRo when he actually tries and isn't just styling on people) are probably the best Falcons in America. Both of them just play Falcon... better than everyone else, though Fatality is probs a step above Max. Max still has a problem that many Falcons have, you can see him fishing for Raptor Boost from a mile away.

I rag on Falcon's hitboxes and stuff because they are absurd, but he kind of needs them. If I understand correctly, one of the (many) things that held him back in Brawl was his "low priority" which in Smash just means small hitboxes. If he had to be nerfed, I would much rather see damage reductions than hitbox reductions. It would still allow him to have some priority, let him combo and style more and make boring flow chart Falcon worse.

But yeah, I really hope Fatality gets more of a spotlight, cause his Falcon has changed the way I look at/play the character.
No way. Captain Falcon honestly invalidates a lot of character purely off of hitbox sizes alone. Dash attack should not be allowed to have a hitbox like that on a character with those traits and properties.

Fix his up smash, rapid jab 3, Falcon Dive, and dash attack hitboxes, give him more recovery frames on his up and down smash, and then he'll be in a good spot. Right now he's super polarized and gets away with stuff he honestly shouldn't.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Why hate on CF when you have rosalina&luma? Makes no sense to me at all (hate that character so much) but I shouldn't worry, she'll probably be the next "cancer character that needs to be nerfed immediately" next week along with luigi, pika, ZSS, and the rest of the top tier and high tier.
 
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Firefoxx

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No way. Captain Falcon honestly invalidates a lot of character purely off of hitbox sizes alone. Dash attack should not be allowed to have a hitbox like that on a character with those traits and properties.

Fix his up smash, rapid jab 3, Falcon Dive, and dash attack hitboxes, give him more recovery frames on his up and down smash, and then he'll be in a good spot. Right now he's super polarized and gets away with stuff he honestly shouldn't.
Up Smash has to be timed super well to be 'good'. the first hit is awful and very often doesn't combo into the second hit. Though I assume you might be talking about the weird horizontal disjoint/vortex on his feet? Yeah, that's weird. Idk what to say about it really. More recovery on both it and down smash would be okay, though more recovery on down smash would just make it a worse fsmash in many situations. (and it kinda already is)

Falcon Dive I agree with to an extent, right now the command grab isn't consistent with the animation which means that sometimes it doesn't connect when it should and sometimes it connects when it has no business doing so. Basically, as a Falcon player I should never be surprised when Dive does/doesn't connect and I often am.

Rapid jab finisher has lulzy horizontal range, but bad vertical range (which, on whiff, can often let you 'combo' rapid jab back into jab on people.) reducing its horizontal range a ton while increasing its vertical range a little would be A-Okay with me since Gentleman is often times the better jab choice.

Dash attack is one of Falcon's best answers to projectiles so I would like it to keep a little disjoint, but it could use a little reduction. Tele-grab is really the thing that makes dash attack good tho.
 
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Ulevo

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Up Smash has to be timed super well to be 'good'. the first hit is awful and very often doesn't combo into the second hit. More recovery on both it and down smash would be okay, though more recovery on down smash would just make it a worse fsmash in many situations.
The problem with up smash is it has the same hitbox problems as Snake's up tilt did in Brawl. It has huge horizontal range with no business having so. There are times where you will be spaced so you should be safe and you get sucked in to the up smash 1 then KO'd by up smash 2. Neither down smash or up smash are punishable on whiff unless they whiff in your face. This is coming from someone who plays Meta Knight who, outside of Sonic and Falcon, has the best dash grab and overall probably the best dash attack in the game.

Rapid jab finisher has lulzy horizontal range, but bad vertical range (which, on whiff, can often let you 'combo' rapid jab back into jab on people.) reducing its horizontal range a ton while increasing its vertical range a little would be A-Okay with me since Gentleman is often times the better jab choice.
I like that it has the vertical range it does because there should be risk involved in using that jab variant because it will do more damage than the gentlemen. The problem with it now is Falcon will use it on shield, be pushed away from the defending player, and then the defending player is put in to a mix up by default because the hitbox can REACH the player, and if they go for a roll, jump, or shield drop they can get hit from jab 3. If Sakurai wanted to give Falcon Ki Blasts this was the wrong game to do so.

Dash attack is one of Falcon's best answers to projectiles so I would like it to keep a little disjoint, but it could use a little reduction. Tele-grab is really the thing that makes dash attack good tho.
Falcon doesn't need an answer like that. He should be forced to have to deal with projectile in the manner all rush down characters do. Walking forward, perfect shield, jumping, air dodging or spot dodging. To be honest, this is kind of a poor argument because if you're using it to stuff projectiles you're either 1) getting punished for it or 2) stuffing it in the opponents face and then hitting them which simply shouldn't happen and illustrates the problem with the hitbox.
 
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Mr. Johan

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If Falcon's considered Top 10 material based simply on basic Day 1-2 stuff alone when the other Top 10 contenders have been thoroughly explored and analyzed sans Zero Suit Samus to an extent, imagine how far he'll fly up when people get hi-technical with him.
 

Firefoxx

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The problem with up smash is it has the same hitbox problems as Snake's up tilt did in Brawl. It has huge horizontal range with no business having so. There are times where you will be spaced so you should be safe and you get sucked in to the up smash 1 then KO'd by up smash 2. Neither down smash or up smash are punishable on whiff unless they whiff in your face. This is coming from someone who plays Meta Knight who, outside of Sonic and Falcon, has the best dash grab and overall probably the best dash attack in the game.




I like that it has the vertical range it does because there should be risk involved in using that jab variant because it will do more damage than the gentlemen. The problem with it now is Falcon will use it on shield, be pushed away from the defending player, and then the defending player is put in to a mix up by default because the hitbox can REACH the player, and if they go for a roll, jump, or shield drop they can get hit from jab 3. If Sakurai wanted to give Falcon Ki Blasts this was the wrong game to do so.



Falcon doesn't need an answer like that. He should be forced to have to deal with projectile in the manner all rush down characters do. Walking forward, perfect shield, jumping, air dodging or spot dodging. To be honest, this is kind of a poor argument because if you're using it to stuff projectiles you're either 1) getting punished for it or 2) stuffing it in the opponents face and then hitting them which simply shouldn't happen and illustrates the problem with the hitbox.
Quite a few characters have smashes that can't be punished unless they whiff right next to you. Meta Knight's f-smash comes to mind as a smash that seems untouchable.

The ki blast/ on shield stuff with rapid jab 3 is ridiculous and I 100% agree with you on it.

Dash Attacks disjoint is basically Falcon's only character specific defensive option. Its not very good, its super situational, but it exists and it allows him to play a high risk/high potential reward version of zone breaking. I think its cool, but if he lost it it wouldn't be the end of the world.

If Falcon's considered Top 10 material based simply on basic Day 1-2 stuff alone when the other Top 10 contenders have been thoroughly explored and analyzed sans Zero Suit Samus to an extent, imagine how far he'll fly up when people get hi-technical with him.
One of the big hidden things holding Falcon back in this regard is that the Falcon board basically doesn't have a mod. I know it basically didn't 3 months ago and every time I pop back in there it doesn't look like things have changed.
 

PUK

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Falcon was top 10 because you was able to win by tossing the 3DS against the wall back in this days. He has a lot of issue against everything with strong advantage and a good enough neutral. He's clearly top 10, but he has a crappy recovery, and even ROB can keep him in disadvantage. He's scarry, but most of the time you can either rush his face and win because most of his answers to that are unsafe, or camp him, because he can't use Banana/needles/sonic/LM to really break the wall. I can see the uses of his special being more clever and creative as the time pass, but that's the most he can got.

One of the big hidden things holding Falcon back in this regard is that the Falcon board basically doesn't have a mod. I know it basically didn't 3 months ago and every time I pop back in there it doesn't look like things have changed.
Fortunately the meta of smash doesn't give a s***** about how smashboard is managed dude
 

bc1910

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^Falcon's jab one of the best options in the game for dealing with people who rush in. And if he doesn't want to box with you he can just run away since he moves faster than everyone except Sonic and maybe Pikachu (through QA).

The latest patch was a really helpful for Falcon. I think that's what pushes him into top 10 territory. Pre-patch his worst MUs bar none were Diddy and Sheik, and having your worst MUs be the top 2 is pretty bad.

Now though, Falcon doesn't die early to Diddy any more. He still gets comboed like crazy in the air by Diddy but the Dthrow knockback change helps Falcon a ton because it stops Diddy from being able to drag him back to the ground for a massive combo. His damage output from a grab vs Falcon has been massively reduced. Does he still beat Falcon? I can't say for sure, but there's no doubt this MU has improved significantly.

Sheik should still beat him because she wrecks him so hard with her combos, but she doesn't beat him as hard any more because the Bair nerf is actually significant. Falcon can still recover after being hit with plenty of Bairs whereas before a single Bair would usually end his stock.
 
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Firefoxx

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Fortunately the meta of smash doesn't give a s***** about how smashboard is managed dude
I know. I know in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter very much. But this is one of the 5 most used characters in the game we are talking about. SOMETHING got ****ed up somewhere along the way to where there are 2 maybe 3 Falcons in the whole country that have any semblance of an idea how the character could be played to his full potential.

I can go onto the Sheik board and learn a bunch of tricks to help get me started learning how to play her.

I basically can't get any of that on that on the Falcon board, but I can debate which alt costume looks the best.

That's the kind of **** I'm talking about.

The latest patch was a really helpful for Falcon. I think that's what pushes him into top 10 territory. Pre-patch his worst MUs bar none were Diddy and Sheik, and having your worst MUs be the top 2 is pretty bad.

Now though, Falcon doesn't die early to Diddy any more. He still gets comboed like crazy in the air by Diddy but the Dthrow knockback change helps Falcon a ton because it stops Diddy from being able to drag him back to the ground for a massive combo. His damage output from a grab vs Falcon has been massively reduced. Does he still beat Falcon? I can't say for sure, but there's no doubt this MU has improved significantly.

Sheik should still beat him because she wrecks him so hard with her combos, but she doesn't beat him as hard any more because the Bair nerf is actually significant. Falcon can still recover after being hit with plenty of Bairs whereas before a single Bair would usually end his stock.
Pre-patch his worst match-up was probably Pikachu, though a worse Diddy and Sheik certainly helps tremendously as those were still bad matchups
 
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Ulevo

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I'm just going to say that having a poorly modded character sub forum with little to no development or discussion goes a long way to impeding a characters potential.
 

BSP

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With the spin dash discussion on the last page, I want to add that as long as Sonic has his double jump available when he starts it, you've got pretty much nothing guaranteed as far as punishing goes because he's not committed. With Spin Dash, he can jump out of the hop, and with spin charge, hit jump twice to stop moving forward immediately.

As long as he's got stage behind you after he hits your shield, he can always just keep going in the roll. Or hit your shield -> spin dash jump -> ride the jump out. He's got plenty of mixup potential to make punishing it a guess most of the time.
 
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Asdioh

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Are you actually suggesting that a heavy nerf to a character who's possibly not even top 10 would put him in a good spot? Just fill me out whether we're on the same page here. With this in mind, what do you consider should be done about the likes of Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Mario, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Yoshi and Pikachu who many mid and high level players alike consider to be above him?
I'm suddenly reminded of Mafia games, where you think you're in the clear, when all of a sudden there's a bandwagon of people trying to lynch you! I can't blame you for being baffled though, I'd feel the same if people were suddenly calling for Kirby nerfs.
To be fair though, Kirby's design is frustrating, and if he had top tier specs, people would be upset. I say this mainly because his crouch is so dumb. I really don't like the fact that my character is unreasonably good against characters when he can duck half their moves, and pretty bad against characters with no significant moves to duck. I'd trade his short crouch for better mobility specs any day. And maybe a burst of speed dash attack, and some disjoints on aerials...

On a side note, most might also not know the ledge vulnerability is (at least) 2 frames instead of 1,
You're talking about the ledgesnap vulnerability, where people can be hit the instant they grab the ledge? That thing that was hyped up some months ago, but I've never seen put into practice (even with multihit moves like Kirby's Dair I never seem to get it :c)
 

Lavani

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You're talking about the ledgesnap vulnerability, where people can be hit the instant they grab the ledge? That thing that was hyped up some months ago, but I've never seen put into practice (even with multihit moves like Kirby's Dair I never seem to get it :c)
You have to aim to intercept their recovery rather than just attacking in front of the ledge, the vulnerable frame(s?) is away from it.

Stuff about ledgesnaps:

When characters get in range to grab the ledge from any state, they'll start reaching for the ledge frame 1 (still vulnerable) and grab the ledge on frame 3 (invincible). I'm unsure if frame 2 is vulnerable or not, haven't managed to prove or disprove it, but it'd make sense to me if invincibility is achieved by grabbing the ledge.

Since characters start reaching for the ledge when they're in range to begin snapping to it, the exploitable frame isn't on the ledge, but under/in front of it depending on the recovery trajectory. Here's an image comparing three different snap directions with Palutena (first frame ledge snap begins out of Warp):



It's definitely exploitable, especially if you have a character that can easily put lingering hitboxes offstage (Kirby dair, Swordfighter dair, Luigi Cyclone, Rosalina dair/Luma jab, Wario bike/dair, etc.) or attacks that reach below the ledge.

Some other points worth noting: ledgesnaps can be intercepted with command grabs (Falcon Dive stagespikes!), and even though the character doesn't actually touch the ledge their jumps are restored when hit out of ledge snap.
when snapping to the ledge from above, the ledgesnap is fully invincible.

It seems that as long as you're above the ledge's horizontal plane, your ledgesnap is safe (which clears this up for me).

Demonstration with Falco Phase and Farore's Wind:
 

Mario766

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It's easiest to hit the vulnerability with lingering hitboxes.

It's why Eruption ****s over so many recoveries, because it lingers with a hitbox that increases with charge time.
 

Ffamran

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I wanna ask how many characters have these sick Footstool combos? Right now I only know of Falcon and Ganondorf but if we could implement into other charcters......that would definitely push the meta in general. Sadly I can't see someone like Ike having this because all of his aerials have too much knockback though Ike can use Nair and start comboing.

Edit: Oops I was actually wrong about Ike. Ike can Footstool->Dair. Still can't get a forced get up it seems. :/

Btw with sick footstool combos I mean stuff like the video above or this http://gfycat.com/PartialEvergreenFulmar which basically forces a getup and guaranteed follow up.
I could see Falco doing this purely because of his jump height, but the question is how he gets in as he doesn't exactly have a fast grab and he can't tank things like Ganondorf. His Dair having the same startup as them would make timing almost the same, but if he hits with the sour-spot...

One thing he does have is Fair to footstool that Cyro found out, but it might only work on Captain Falcon for some reason.

Edit: Cyro's video: https://youtu.be/2zQksk1c50U.

And I think this player pulls it off on Little Mac: https://youtu.be/jziHZc1bdWc.

Might be unnecessary, but it would guarantee a kill by footstooling out of Fox's Fair spike: https://youtu.be/qqkMpchMmKE.
 
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Spinosaurus

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You're talking about the ledgesnap vulnerability, where people can be hit the instant they grab the ledge? That thing that was hyped up some months ago, but I've never seen put into practice (even with multihit moves like Kirby's Dair I never seem to get it :c)
Wario gets a mileage out of this with his dash attack because of its lingering hit box.
Here's a video by @shoff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKOEZGIopQs

With customs this can set up for an easy rose waft gimp if they can still manage to recover.

If anyone wanted more reasons on why this character is l/edgeguarding god then here you go.
 
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Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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General thought, but they really should be buffing lower tiers significantly [Zelda, Game and Watch, etc] instead of nerfing top tiers at this point. Aside from Sheik fair and needles, nothing is really extremely problematic in terms of top tier unbalance at this point. I think all the top tiers otherwise are fair game and have that one weakness to set them back enough to be not broken [Sonic: a far distanced projectile, ZSS: her grab, Rosalina: big and light, Luigi: mobility, Pikachu: Kill setups, etc]

Just give characters like Game and Watch his kill power back, or Mac some more recovery! I personally thought Diddy was very well handled, hes still a top tier but no longer dominates with hoo hah that was legitimately stupid. You could consider D throw to tornado a minor hoo hah sure, but Luigi doesn't have bananas to set it up.

Speaking of which...I'm sure you all saw how Luigi is probably the deadliest character in the game with a banana in hand.
 

Mr. Johan

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Luigi doesn't need Bananas when his safe-on-shield Fireballs allow him to play "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" where a shield answer leads to a Montana-size Dash Grab, a spotdodge read leads to a Usmash, and a roll backward gives Luigi more stage control.
 

PUK

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Fireball clank with everything which doesn't belong to zelda's moveset. Falcon for exemple can keep muigi at bay.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Why hate on CF when you have rosalina&luma? Makes no sense to me at all (hate that character so much) but I shouldn't worry, she'll probably be the next "cancer character that needs to be nerfed immediately" next week along with luigi, pika, ZSS, and the rest of the top tier and high tier.
Yes nerf the most interesting and unique character in sm4sh till she's boring. Luma already dies dumb easy what more do you want?
 

Blobface

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Also..this


Can't wait to see this stuff become standard.
Literally everyone should be looking into this kind of thing with their character. With hitstun not being cancellable, there are plenty of ways to get guaranteed footstools. If Ganondorf can get guaranteed footstools, I don't know why anyone else can't. Footstools come out on frame 1 provided you're in the right position correct?
 
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Baby_Sneak

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Yes nerf the most interesting and unique character in sm4sh till she's boring. Luma already dies dumb easy what more do you want?
She's been boring since 2014. :p

I'm not specifically targeting rosalina (tho I do hate her), or I'm not even asking for nerfs. I'm just being sarcastic I how whiny the community is being right now. Like now, everybody is over CF to be nerfed because cancer, so I'm guessing luigi's next, then Rosalina, then Pika, Then ZSS, then wario, then Mario, then ganondorf, then Mii's, until we go through the entire cast and everybody is weaker than brawl ganondorf >____>.
 

Smog Frog

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only thing that needs to be nerfed/changed is :4sheik: needles and fair. just add attack trails for disjoints(falcon's jab finisher, bouncing fish, falcon's fsmash) because :4ganondorf: has somewhat similar disjoints on his dtilt and ftilt, and have a little attack trail to signify there's a disjoint. if attack trails signified there was a disjoint, would you be complaining?
 

Blobface

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Another thing I don't think enough people take advantage of is ground bounces. I don't think any characters can guarantee followups off a ground bounce, but it puts the victim in a terrible position. Provided they miss the tech, they either flop around on the ground for days (low %'s) or end up in the air instantly doing an airdodge (high %'s). Even if they tech, you can go for a techchase!

The only player I know of that really uses ground bounces is Boss.

if attack trails signified there was a disjoint, would you be complaining?
This. Ganondorf has absolutely enormous disjoints, possibly more than any other non-sword character (including Falcon), but his attack trails follow the disjoint exactly.
 
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Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Another thing I don't think enough people take advantage of is ground bounces. I don't think any characters can guarantee followups off a ground bounce, but it puts the victim in a terrible position. Provided they miss the tech, they either flop around on the ground for days (low %'s) or end up in the air instantly doing an airdodge (high %'s). Even if they tech, you can go for a techchase!

The only player I know of that really uses ground bounces is Boss.


This. Ganondorf has absolutely enormous disjoints, possibly more than any other non-sword character (including Falcon), but his attack trails follow the disjoint exactly.
Isn't that because it's fairly easily to setup Luigi's Dair? D-throw from him setups everything from comboing, juggling, and kills. The characters I know that uses ground bounces as a major part of their game plan would be Melee Falco with his pillaring and Wolf in Brawl and PM. Melee Falco had Reflector to setup pillars and his frame 5 Dair helps. Wolf just had pure air speed and a fairly fast Dair spike.

I think Mario and Yoshi in this game can make use of ground bounces because of their air speed, but they might have better options than that, especially Mario who might want to rack up damage through easier setups than go for a Fair bounce while Yoshi already makes use of Fair as an approach tool since he can easily weave in and put with his air speed.
 
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bc1910

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Tons of characters can guarantee followups off an unteched ground bounce. I'm not really sure what you mean by that. I think opponents actually get too many options after getting hit with a move that ground bounces them (neutral tech, techroll back, techroll foward, don't tech) but they're all reactable so ground bounces are alright.

With regard to Luigi's fireballs the best thing to do is drop shield and jab him when he runs in. He runs pretty slowly and a jab will beat all of his good options. Except maybe Usmash if your jab has exceptionally crappy range... not sure though.
 
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Sheddy

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so what is everyones view on the Bowser Jr I've been using him lately and trying to find a few mains since I'm slowly getting into the tournament scene (last one I went to at a anime con I got 4th in) and I feel like he is alot better then people give him credit for his down b is great for setting and forcing a player to react, his neutral a and side a are good for keep away, his side b is good for setting up air moves, his air attacks have alot of disjointed attacks making them safe to edge guard with and get early edge kills, and his smashes while laggy have alot fo killpower to them.

I am just saying I'm not saying I think he is S tier but when used well I think he can be in the A tier personally
 
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