Character Competitive Impressions

[Superbat]

Also talking about for glory and/or captain falcon...
How is he not the campiest character you EVER play on it? Like... maybe the average Samus is campier... but any competent cancer player on Wifi is going to make a match as Falcon last 4-5 minutes if you actually know how to deal with the "obvious" dash ins. Hurr falcon dashes forward and back rolls until you throw out something that he can still punish with a dash in, then once you're in the air he'll charge a smash attack near your landing or back roll again, rinse and repeat. Oh and if you use a character that has landing options/good spacing tools to punish, he'll just start jabbing instead, then you have no way whatsoever to deal with it with any sort of delay.
Captain Falcon is a disgusting character and as long as Smash 4 persists, the greater the sway of "meme hero" will turn into "scorn of all, wish he was deleted from the game". I don't personally know ANYONE who enjoys playing against Falcon offline or online. His list of cancerous binary tools go well beyond anyone else. Perhaps this is Sakurai's intentions to kill any franchise he doesn't want coming back... he did it with Ice Climbers, now it's Falcon's turn.

Preach my man. #Captainmustdie (salty mk main that struggles with the CF matchup here lel)
Somebody tell this man @ Asdioh @ @ Blobface

 

[David Viran]

Not terrible but a few nitpicks.

is a bit too high, and he's also not easy to play anymore at least against people who actually know the matchup. Diddy has to work much, much harder than before to get to kill range and land his finisher and again, if you just take away his banana he has no setups to do this. Prolly still top 5 though. Also, interesting that he's being called the most overrated and #2 by the same poll.

is too low. I'm feeling like a broken record at this point but he's at least top 3. He has no representation at the top level because its just really hard to play him to his full potential, much harder than characters like , , and .

and to a certain extent are too low.

and are too low.

has issues but he is not the worst character with no customs. Like, at all.

, , and are too low, and about 90% of the B-tiers look like it was just "I don't know jack about this character, might as well say average."

We don't need so many separations in tiers even if its just B+, B, B- kind of separations. The game is better balanced than that and those separations are pretty pointless in my mind.

But getting better i suppose.

I don't know why people seem to think zss is remotely easy at a high level. She has punishable as crap moves that she actually wants to use so mistakes are can be very bad. Your spacing has to be on point at all times or you'll never beat sheild too.

 

[Trifroze]

Captain Falcon is a disgusting character and as long as Smash 4 persists, the greater the sway of "meme hero" will turn into "scorn of all, wish he was deleted from the game". I don't personally know ANYONE who enjoys playing against Falcon offline or online. His list of cancerous binary tools go well beyond anyone else. Perhaps this is Sakurai's intentions to kill any franchise he doesn't want coming back... he did it with Ice Climbers, now it's Falcon's turn.

Who out of the top characters don't have cancerous binary tools though? Falcon has his fair share of weaknesses to make up for his, moreso than most other top to high tiers which is explained by his relative lack of results compared to characters like Diddy, Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina, Mario and ZSS.

Without a doubt dash grab has excellent range combined with his running speed but his initial dash is long and it's hard to close distances against certain projectile spammers without having to resort to walking (which defeats the purpose of his speed), and he doesn't have projectiles of his own. Uair is probably the best of its kind for juggling and combos, but Falcon has just as much trouble getting juggled and landing as any decent character does against his uair. His dash attack has a good disjoint and leads to an uair follow-up but it's also very punishable. His damage output and KO ability are among the best in the game but his recovery is among the worst because of its linearity; if you lack a second jump or have to use up b from a less-than-ideal distance to the ledge (grab hitbox running out before you reach the ledge), you'll be hit further offstage by anything by simple reaction.

There's plenty of moves in the game that are as annoying, some of which exist in a better overall kit. Though you might think of every top to high tier character as disgusting in which case I understand, but you did single Falcon out above everyone else and quite provocatively at that. Here's some tools which are as bad as or worse than Falcon's dash grab:

- Sheik, Diddy and especially ZSS can flip their way out of disadvantage for almost free after the opponent's initial string is over

- Sheik's needles are literally as out of place as Ganondorf being given Pikachu's thunderjolts or Luigi's fireballs

- Sheik's bouncing fish is the most versatile special in the game: it's a kill move, safe on shield approach, a recovery move and a tool to make landings easier

- Diddy's dtilt sets up into pretty much everything and is easy to land

- Villager and Lucario literally cannot get gimped because of their up specials, I've landed two meteors back to back on them and they still make it back

- Customs on, Villager's specials used in synergy allow will probably invalidate a lot of characters eventually

- High aura Lucario in general: AS becomes the best projectile in the game by a large margin and gives Lucario one of the best neutrals in conjunction with his damage output, lack of landing lag and grab range + command grab that's also a projectile (doesn't help that you can achieve this by straight up losing neutral over and over, although you do need to play well once you do reach that high aura)

- Sonic

- Luma: punishes you for hitting Rosalina, walls out projectiles, then dies and comes back after Rosalina has rolled about 8 times or thrown the opponent offstage once. After this the duo will move on to invalidate half the recoveries in the game with the reverse Luma jab tech that Dabuz found. If this fails dair will probably get you anyway or you'll die to uair at 60% as Ganondorf

- Pikachu's quick attack is unpunishable free damage that can setup into follow-ups, also allows ridiculous mobility and top level recovery

- Mii Brawler's hurricane kick up b, ZSS' up b, MK's up b are all examples of one move being given way too much utility

- Speaking of the above, no single move should be as effective and reliable as Ness' backthrow combined with his dash grab, traction, grab range and weight because of the rage mechanic (he has his fair share of weaknesses though much like Falcon)

- Luigi's dthrow setups are sure to cause some sort of an explosion eventually, doubt I need to go into any details on that (although the character pretty much revolves around grab follow-ups)

- Fox's jab resets asjflksafjlkdsaflksadjsd pls patch

- Yoshi's second jump, nair, jab, eggs and low gravity together make his disadvantage literally almost neutral (except on landings which he has trouble with)

- Yoshi's fair with his eggs and air speed is really frustrating to a lot of characters, allows for true combo meteors off of a spammable projectile hit

- Mario's usmash and bread and butter utilt/uair/up b strings are just silly, no combos should be that long without having a way to DI out of them or force the person in advantage to make at least a slight read

- Wario's waft may be pushing it but even for a move that takes time to charge up, this is sort of dumb

 

[KuroganeHammer]

While I don't agree with entirely with the post above, I do love how Sonic doesn't even need a explanation.

 

[Asdioh]

Captain Falcon is a disgusting character and as long as Smash 4 persists, the greater the sway of "meme hero" will turn into "scorn of all, wish he was deleted from the game". I don't personally know ANYONE who enjoys playing against Falcon offline or online. His list of cancerous binary tools go well beyond anyone else. Perhaps this is Sakurai's intentions to kill any franchise he doesn't want coming back... he did it with Ice Climbers, now it's Falcon's turn.

Where is this coming from, all of a sudden? Why are people complaining about Falcon when (an admittedly nerfed) Sonic exists? Am I missing something? Everything Falcon does, Sonic does much more obnoxiously, while being far harder to gimp because of the invincibility on his spring.

Like, is it just Falcon's Jab that's OP?

edit: looks like Trifroze beat me to the punch, with the same general idea :3

I also forgot to ask why Captain Falcon is suddenly Captain Meme in Smash 4. If the answer is Reddit, then there's the problem.

- Fox's jab resets asjflksafjlkdsaflksadjsd pls patch

I actually finally played against a Fox that did this properly. This is the same Fox that I 3 stocked in a tournament when the WiiU version came out, but now that he's mastered Jabjab Upsmash, I was living in constant fear and it was HORRIBLE

 

[Blobface]

When did all this "Down with Falcon!" stuff start? It seems really sudden, especially since his disadvantage and recovery are bad.

(And I do know he has goofy hit boxes)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

People are having trouble with Falcon?

He's as flow chart as a character can get....

 

[Pazx]

They mainly nerfed B-air to get rid of ledge-trump B-air kills and make it more difficult for Sheik to kill. Problem is Sheik was never top tier for her kill options. In fact she was top tier because she doesn't have to kill you. She can literally annoy you to death with needles and f-air.

What happened to Mr.ConCon is exactly what happened to me at TGC2. Safe F-air walling dumps on the majority of the cast, and there's not much any character can do about it except maybe Ness, Lucario, and Pikachu.

How do these three characters deal with it?

I thought I'd have more things to say after reading pages upon pages but I don't.

 

[Trifroze]

Where is this coming from, all of a sudden? Why are people complaining about Falcon when (an admittedly nerfed) Sonic exists? Am I missing something? Everything Falcon does, Sonic does much more obnoxiously, while being far harder to gimp because of the invincibility on his spring.

Like, is it just Falcon's Jab that's OP?

edit: looks like Trifroze beat me to the punch, with the same general idea :3

I also forgot to ask why Captain Falcon is suddenly Captain Meme in Smash 4. If the answer is Reddit, then there's the problem.

I actually finally played against a Fox that did this properly. This is the same Fox that I 3 stocked in a tournament when the WiiU version came out, but now that he's mastered Jabjab Upsmash, I was living in constant fear and it was HORRIBLE

Forgot about jab yeah, although I don't think it's on the same level as his dash grab or uair. It has mediocre range (anyone is free to test this out, compare to the likes of ZSS, Luigi, Ike, Pikachu, Yoshi, Mac etc) and only decent speed since there are a bunch of frame 1 and frame 2 jabs in the game while Falcon's is frame 3. Overall though it might have more utility than any other jab, although Mega Man, Mac, Luigi and now Mewtwo compete in that.

Also the Falcon meme thing was going much stronger in 2008 even though he was considered the worst character in Brawl. I was a victim of this, and have mained or seconded him ever since.

People are having trouble with Falcon?

He's as flow chart as a character can get....

Flowchart doesn't exist on a high level, not even mid level. Any predictable patterns will get you utterly destroyed. Falcon is a reactive punisher in neutral and largely read based in advantage after the initial uair strings are over and the opponent is past the 20-50% range. He may have to resort to being a flowchart on FG because reactive punishing is hard online, but we shouldn't be talking FG here.

 

[HeroMystic]

How do these three characters deal with it?

I thought I'd have more things to say after reading pages upon pages but I don't.

-Ness has F-air which trades, and B-throw destroys.
-Lucario has Aura/Rage.
-Pikachu can crouch F-air and use D-tilt and QA.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Also the Falcon meme thing was going much stronger in 2008 even though he was considered the worst character in Brawl.

tho?

 

[thehard]

You guys are babies, characters having strong, unique quirks makes the game more exciting and memorable

 

[Sinister Slush]

You guys are babies, characters having strong, unique quirks makes the game more exciting and memorable

Ah yes, Diddy's Dthrow to Uair killing some people around 80% shall go down in history.

To this day I still enjoy Sonic using downb and getting free 20+% or sheik flailing her arms everywhere and making characters obsolete along with her needles.

 

[thehard]

Ah yes, Diddy's Dthrow to Uair killing some people around 80% shall go down in history.

To this day I still enjoy Sonic using downb and getting free 20+% or sheik flailing her arms everywhere and making characters obsolete along with her needles.

I didn't say overpowered quirks!

Then again I have a strong tolerance for what a lot of people like to deem "dumb" mechanics so take that as you will

Plus I mean, Hoo-Hah did kind of go down in history, we even have a name for it.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Shulk's high placement surprises me quite a lot. I can't imagine him being higher than b- considering his poor grab game and below average frame data, among other flaws.

 

[Shaya]

I've been hating Falcon for a long time; nothing new. And I never went out of my way to claim he was best in the game either.
Your character can either deal with certain abilities, or they cannot. Provocation started with someone mentioning Falcon is an "honest" character. Villager and Lucario are characters I would go as far to mention being in a similar boat; moves like Ness' bthrow and Brawler hurricane kick are pretty common complaints; their game play often devolves to them just focusing on succeeding with them without excessive retaliation from an opponent available. Fox' jab still existing is hopefully an oversight and is otherwise the main (maybe only) thing that makes him cheesy.
"which is explained by his relative lack of results compared to characters like Diddy, Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina, Mario and ZSS."; Falcon is excessively popular in tournament and with results. http://www.goldper10.com/article/1379-the-state-of-sm4sh-the-end-of-patch-105.html
Although the range of results considered is a bit dubious (i.e. not provided) in my eyes, it's a source. And otherwise how are you not seeing Falcon's everywhere anyway?

Sonic does not have the safety on shield or dominant CQC that Falcon does nor really comparable aerial strength; there are a lot of ways to deal with spin dash that are openly stated by Sonic players and then some. Watching Dabuz be the only Rosalina to get away with 8 rolls after Luma dies does not really make me think "binary".

Falcon isn't a flow chart character at high level, he just has often multiple options in any given scenario that win against all others. A disadvantaged state isn't something fun for like 90% of the cast, and his recovery being exploitable is a god send to dealing with him.

 

[Antonykun]

You guys are babies, characters having strong, unique quirks makes the game more exciting and memorable

There was once a time where i thought i believed most people loved falcon...
It's what happens when you are a good character who is easy to pick up.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think I would be more fine with Falcon if making a mistake against him didn't result in dying at 60% or taking 60% damage from autocombos.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

People are having trouble with Falcon?

He's as flow chart as a character can get....

I have trouble reading Falcon's they throw out the craziest **** at the most random times. It's really doesn't make sense to me. Then when they don't I get mind****ed.

 

[Trifroze]

"which is explained by his relative lack of results compared to characters like Diddy, Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina, Mario and ZSS."; Falcon is excessively popular in tournament and with results. http://www.goldper10.com/article/1379-the-state-of-sm4sh-the-end-of-patch-105.html
Although the range of results considered is a bit dubious (i.e. not provided) in my eyes, it's a source. And otherwise how are you not seeing Falcon's everywhere anyway?

I'd go on to say those statistics are probably fairly accurate because they reflect on what I've commonly seen or heard on streams and in results threads, however there's a large difference between placing top 8 and winning a tournament, as well as placing high at a local versus doing the same at a major/national. I can see Falcon doing well at smaller tournaments because he excels at all the mid-high tier matchups and locals have a lot more variety in that regard, but I don't really see him taking bigger tournaments because his weaknesses are very exploitable by some of the top performing characters. He may have the tools to do it but there are many characters who have better odds at that, which is what I'm implying. Also pretty much everyone has him as a pocket character so that may skew the results a bit. For instance, Falcon was listed under Zero and Mr. R at Apex when they used him in one match, and on a somewhat relevant note, lost.

tho?

The thunderbeard stepped in about two weeks later achieving a similar status which has also lasted to this day.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Falcon pisses me off just because his airdodge trap game is the most mindless BS and yet extremely rewarding thing you can do with him at high level. Uair, Uair oh they air dodge UAIR AGAIN I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME!!!!!! Oh he managed to land LEMME ROLL AROUND AND THEN DO RANDOM HALF SCREEN DASH GRAB!!! WHY AM I SO PRO!?!?!?!?!

much skill, such wow

 

[Sinister Slush]

I want people to click Shaya's link and realize, while it's of course not 100% accurate, the data this person gathered has 0 Yoshi results in it.

lol

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My issue with fighting Captain Falcon (and Sonic, and Sheik, and Pikachu...) is that they're so bloody fast that sometimes it feels like I literally can't press any buttons at all or else I'll get punished for it.

 

[TriTails]

Falcon's D-throw to N-air tho? Potential WoP.

...Sometimes I do think this character is too overtuned. Probably 1/4 stage foxtrot, Luigi's traction-sytle dash grab, and the list goes on...

Thank God he has bad U-smash. Imagine if he has something like Mario's, it's Falcon Massacre.

 

[Shaya]

Mobility specs that I'd consider top five at worst.
Frame data oft comparable to most of the fastest and speediest characters in the game (start ups are often high on ground moves though, the only thing that let's a character like Pikachu or similar stand a chance IMO)
Excessively high damage values on everything
Range, hidden disjoints and hitboxes that are undeniably frustrating to deal with.
Is in the heavier caste of the game, with abilities that take the strengths of both the heaviest characters and the swiftest with weaknesses or trade offs being hard to quantify ("recovery" and "poor disadvantaged state")
Would not surprise me that in the long term you'll see Falcon being a tier breaker much like people consider Sheik and ZSS to be (or Dedede to be in Brawl). His option spread isn't limitless or as dynamic, but I'm probably fearing Sheik's less in tournament when mistakes against one can be distinctively game changing while the other -could- be a gimp or just a natural 20-30% tacked on in the 150% she needs to finish people.

 

[Anomilus]

I for one don't want Falcon weaker. I just want some of his stuff to be less stupid. Falcon's jab being such an easy get-off move and puts opponents where he wants them, not to mention the last jab's ridiculous range. Oh, and it can hit freakin' behind him.

Cannot stand F-Smash. Even now after I've seen it tons I still get fooled by its range. I've just stood there on occasions, sure that I'm just out of range of some guy charging F-Smash, and....nope. Dude's hiding a spear in his elbow. Oh, and it can hit freakin' behind him.

His Dash beat out Mewtwo's repeated jab attack. You know, the one that's supposed to be disjointed and good at covering his front? Yeah, that happened to me. What da heck.

The dash grab... Actually I'm okay with it. I'm mostly okay with UAir as well. Maybe it could use more growth and less damage. Or something so it isn't a jugglenaut and KO option at once. Still not as ridiculous though. I'd give U-Tilt an additional frame of lag or two if only to make spamming it at the edge a tad tougher. Again, just diminishing some of the stupid out of his moveset.

Okay, so he's supposed to be really bad in the disadvantaged state. What can be done to keep him there as long as possible. We can anticipate mashing A against any gaps, hopefully shielding against jabs and stuff. But it still seems easier said than done. Especially if he does manage to break through, it often ends up with him right back with the advantage instead of resetting to neutral.


Oh yeah, and as it's been mentioned, don't have a problem with Sonic. His spindash antics definitely has answers. It can be annoying when somebody's really good at it, but that's the thing: They're noticeably good at it. Same with Pikachu. Same with Sheik...sort of. With Falcon though, you can know exactly what the opponent wants to do and still lose to it because some of it is Just. So. Stupid.

 

[Ffamran]

People are having trouble with Falcon?

He's as flow chart as a character can get....

Cookie cutters... I hate 'em. All they do is the same thing not understanding why the hell it works. You can't D-throw and hope Uair connects much less even get grabs all the time. Oh, that Dtilt I used as Captain Falcon? Yeah, it exists and it can gimp by sending you at a shallow angle or even outright killing you. The best players aren't cookie cutters and when they are, they're just screwing with you. Remember ZeRo vs. Ito? ZeRo was basically letting Ito show his moves and figure out his game plan. I wouldn't be surprised if ZeRo did the same thing with Mr. ConCon.

The main, stupid things on Captain Falcon and to an extent, Ganondorf, are their disjoints. Dash Attack, Side Smash, Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher, and Ganondorf's Dtilt and Dark Dive/Fists's uppercut are kind of pushing it, especially when you consider how strong Captain Falcon's jab in general is. Ganondorf might need the disjoint on his Dash Attack as he's slow and having a move be able to power through things is nice along with having a bit more range on Dtilt and Side Smash or the ridiculous disjoint on his Dark Dive/Fists's uppercut, but Captain Falcon? Speed and being able to power through stuff with Dash Attack, making his Side Smash reach even further then he's already fast and can close the distance to space it well, and Airbending with rapid jab finisher? Those are pushing it.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I don't know why people seem to think zss is remotely easy at a high level. She has punishable as crap moves that she actually wants to use so mistakes are can be very bad. Your spacing has to be on point at all times or you'll never beat sheild too.

Actually I don't, as fun as zero skill spamus is to say. She's not easy, but she's easy compared to Pikachu.

 

[Nysyr]

I wouldn't have a problem with Falcon if knee wasn't absolutely disgusting in terms of risk/reward. 16 frame startup is not enough.

 

[FimPhym]

You guys are babies, characters having strong, unique quirks makes the game more exciting and memorable

Every fighting game I can think of has dumb nonsense, and all the better for it. Dumb stuff usually translates to being put in hard situations that create a fire in you that you need to prevent or break through. Exciting! I see this week falcon is "cancer" because idk he's fast.

Previously in this thread people have agreed on other "cancerous" characters. The list would include: lucario, sonic, pikachu, sheik, diddy, rosalina, villager, ness. Which sounds like a list of strong characters oops. They're too fast, they're too slow, I'm "winning" (no you're not) and then I lose.

It is like a slightly less extreme version of twitch chat's opinion on hearthstone. Aggressive decks? Cancer. Control deck? Cancer. Very slow decks that deck out the opponent? Cancer. Mid range druid with a sudden combo finisher? Cancer. Full combo deck that seems to assemble a specific game state to kill you over two turns? Cancer. Any deck that is strong at all in any way? Yup.

I think it's just got a veneer of respectability to say such and such is cancer that just wouldn't fly if you said throws are cheap.

Obviously except sonic. Screw that character and the times I lose to him. Not fair. Clearly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I wouldn't have a problem with Falcon if knee wasn't absolutely disgusting in terms of risk/reward. 16 frame startup is not enough.

Knee's got tons of landing lag though. Falcon's easy gimp fodder at least. He absolutely has plenty of risk to go with his reward, unlike certain monkeys, ninjas, hedgehogs, space princesses, etc.

 

[Nysyr]

Knee's got tons of landing lag though. Falcon's easy gimp fodder at least. He absolutely has plenty of risk to go with his reward, unlike certain monkeys, ninjas, hedgehogs, space princesses, etc.

If you Land with knee you deserve everything that comes to you, whiffing it in the air or sourspotting does not have anywhere near enough end lag to it.

I've seen the move combo out of dair and dthrow at mid percentages, which is absolutely dumb.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If you Land with knee you deserve everything that comes to you, whiffing it in the air or sourspotting does not have anywhere near enough end lag to it.

I've seen the move combo out of dair and dthrow at mid percentages, which is absolutely dumb.

How does the knee stack up against Zelda's kicks? Because if Zelda's kicks are worse on top of her not being able to combo into them like Falcon can with his knee then I'll...I don't know, get angry on the internet or something. Probably not even that, just annoyed more likely.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Falcon is kind of janky in terms of how he doesn't have to risk much to go for a great reward and he doesn't have to commit like most other characters do, but he doesn't abuse this in any way, shape or form compared to the blue cancer.

Seriously, all the time that people spend learning spacing, risk vs. reward, and reaction speed is made completely meaningless as soon as the opponent picks sonic. A well played sonic ignores basic fighting game fundamentals like that and turns the game into an absolute ****show where prediction and BLIND GUESSING is all that matters, and this situation is grossly in Sonic's favor since he doesn't have to commit to anything. I passionately hate that horrible, horrible creature and I believe that the fact that he is a top tier character is the only thing holding smash 4 back from being respected by the larger fighting game community.

/rant

 

[Nu~]

Seriously, all the time that people spend learning spacing, risk vs. reward, and reaction speed is made completely meaningless as soon as the opponent picks sonic. A well played sonic ignores basic fighting game fundamentals like that and turns the game into an absolute ****show where prediction and BLIND GUESSING is all that matters. I passionately hate that horrible, horrible creature and I believe that the fact that he is a top tier character is the only thing holding smash 4 back from being respected by the larger fighting game community.

/rant

Amen brother.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Falcon is kind of janky in terms of how he doesn't have to risk much to go for a great reward and he doesn't have to commit like most other characters do, but he doesn't abuse this in any way, shape or form compared to the blue cancer.

Seriously, all the time that people spend learning spacing, risk vs. reward, and reaction speed is made completely meaningless as soon as the opponent picks sonic. A well played sonic ignores basic fighting game fundamentals like that and turns the game into an absolute ****show where prediction and BLIND GUESSING is all that matters. I passionately hate that horrible, horrible creature and I believe the fact that he is a top tier character is the only thing holding smash 4 back from being respected by the larger fighting game community.

/rant

Falcon's risk exists more in terms of character properties like size, fall speed, and poor recovery that cause him to get punished harder for his mistakes than other characters. He also does have to commit harder than the top tiers do. As for Sonic, drop him into a Sonic 06 glitch pit so we never have to see the annoying little **** again.

 

[Blobface]

I'm pretty neutral on Sonic, but I can't help but wonder if some of the hate for him comes from his obnoxious personality as a character.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'm pretty neutral on Sonic, but I can't help but wonder if some of the hate for him comes from his obnoxious personality as a character.

Yeahh, I've heard some people complain about that before.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm pretty neutral on Sonic, but I can't help but wonder if some of the hate for him comes from his obnoxious personality as a character.

Eh, it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I mean, take Spin Dash. Full disclosure, I still have no freaking clue how the move works but as a victim observer, this is how I perceive it and Sonic's options from it:

1. Sonic starts charging the move.
2. While it's still charging he can cancel it whenever he wants.
3. He can also apparently jump while still spinning?
4. Okay he's finally dashing at me.
5. He hits, jumps for more damage, and then cancels into an aerial for even more damage.
6. I finally manage to shield but he escapes with jump > spring before I can react, while the falling spring covers his escape. (Note: Does hitting Luma even when I'm shielding have anything to do with this?)
7. Now he's high enough to dair without landing lag.
8. And I don't even know if he can just barrel through me or not, I honestly can't remember.

And I'm just left wondering what happened and how I'm supposed to punish it when as far as I can tell it doesn't leave him open unless he messes up? Someone enlighten me on how to punish Spin Dash please.

</rant> </salt>

 

[Big O]

The only thing that bothers me a lot when I fight against CF is how often I get hit by or clank with his rapid jab when I'm behind him.

I'd rather fight CF over Sonic any time though. Sonic, Rosalina,and Olimar are probably my most hated characters to go up against. Sonic is just overtuned in like every possible way on top of not having meaningful weaknesses. Luma is probably the most unfun/janky thing in this game overall. Olimar is spam/camp city the character. I don't really know why exactly Villager doesn't bother me even half as much, but somehow Olimar manages to be the most annoying camp character in the game.