Character Competitive Impressions

[Firefoxx]

How does the knee stack up against Zelda's kicks? Because if Zelda's kicks are worse on top of her not being able to combo into them like Falcon can with his knee then I'll...I don't know, get angry on the internet or something. Probably not even that, just annoyed more likely.

Kicks come out faster, but have worse AC windows (if im not mistaken). Knee auto-cancels off a full hop as long as you do it on the way up

Knee auto-cancels 8 frames faster and KO's 3% earlier than Zelda fair and ac's 10 frames faster but KO's 2 % later than Zelda bair

you can actually knee -> nair before you hit the ground -> jab to cover your landing

edit: speaking of jab, I'm pretty sure ZSS and Little Mac can interrupt the startup of rapid jab with their jab. I know ive had a few ZSS' do that to me

 

[TriTails]

And I'm just left wondering what happened and how I'm supposed to punish it when as far as I can tell it doesn't leave him open unless he messes up? Someone enlighten me on how to punish Spin Dash please.
</rant> </salt>

Use Luigi and spam Fireballs.

*Gets a lot of looks*

What? It works.

Back to real point... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Spin Dash is basically a huge moving hitbox (And hurtbox) that loses to basically any projectiles (Not Fox's) and any disjointed or lasting hitbox?

 

[Paper Maribro]

The more I think about Captain Falcon the more abusive he seems.

Okay so sure his disdvantage is bad, he gets combo'd hard and he hasn't got good options for getting out of juggles. But you know what, Falcon actually gets something out of being Juggled?

Rage.

Falcon on Rage is absurd. He does ridiculous damage with up air which can still combo with rage and if he hits an Fsmash or a side b then you just die at ridiculously low percents. I don't think there are many characters that take advantage of rage like Falcon does. He's highly mobile with great survivability and amazing power with fantastic moves that can take advantage of rage and rack up damage on his opponent. Sure Bowser and Ganon and Dedede can live forever and get rage but their moves aren't as just fundamentally great as Falcon's are.

You take rage out of the game and Falcon is suddenly a much more honest character that doesn't kill you at 70% just because he's being juggled but got one read (heavies have this issue but they don't have Falcon's frame data or mobility specs that many heavies would kill for). I mean, up air's damage is still a little high for my liking but that's literally the only thing I can think of without rage in the game. With rage, Falcon is fundamentally abusive and is, in my opinion, probably top 3 in this game at the moment, no worries.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Eh, it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I mean, take Spin Dash. Full disclosure, I still have no freaking clue how the move works but as a victim observer, this is how I perceive it and Sonic's options from it:

1. Sonic starts charging the move.
2. While it's still charging he can cancel it whenever he wants.
3. He can also apparently jump while still spinning?
4. Okay he's finally dashing at me.
5. He hits, jumps for more damage, and then cancels into an aerial for even more damage.
6. I finally manage to shield but he escapes with jump > spring before I can react, while the falling spring covers his escape. (Note: Does hitting Luma even when I'm shielding have anything to do with this?)
7. Now he's high enough to dair without landing lag.
8. And I don't even know if he can just barrel through me or not, I honestly can't remember.

And I'm just left wondering what happened and how I'm supposed to punish it when as far as I can tell it doesn't leave him open unless he messes up? Someone enlighten me on how to punish Spin Dash please.

</rant> </salt>

Your'e forgetting:

9. You correctly guess what's going to come at you out of like a dozen options and get a clean hit confirm. But it doesn't matter, because he just breaks your string by mashing up-B with his eyes closed. He resets to neutral and goes back to 1.

 

[Ffamran]

Eh, it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I mean, take Spin Dash. Full disclosure, I still have no freaking clue how the move works but as a victim observer, this is how I perceive it and Sonic's options from it:

1. Sonic starts charging the move.
2. While it's still charging he can cancel it whenever he wants.
3. He can also apparently jump while still spinning?
4. Okay he's finally dashing at me.
5. He hits, jumps for more damage, and then cancels into an aerial for even more damage.
6. I finally manage to shield but he escapes with jump > spring before I can react, while the falling spring covers his escape. (Note: Does hitting Luma even when I'm shielding have anything to do with this?)
7. Now he's high enough to dair without landing lag.
8. And I don't even know if he can just barrel through me or not, I honestly can't remember.

And I'm just left wondering what happened and how I'm supposed to punish it when as far as I can tell it doesn't leave him open unless he messes up? Someone enlighten me on how to punish Spin Dash please.

</rant> </salt>

Play as Falco; your ultimate win button will be Reflector.

Falco hits hard enough and fast enough where he won't have trouble unless you're fighting a real Sonic like 6wX.

 

[Lavani]

Eh, it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I mean, take Spin Dash. Full disclosure, I still have no freaking clue how the move works but as a victim observer, this is how I perceive it and Sonic's options from it:

1. Sonic starts charging the move.
2. While it's still charging he can cancel it whenever he wants.
3. He can also apparently jump while still spinning?
4. Okay he's finally dashing at me.
5. He hits, jumps for more damage, and then cancels into an aerial for even more damage.
6. I finally manage to shield but he escapes with jump > spring before I can react, while the falling spring covers his escape. (Note: Does hitting Luma even when I'm shielding have anything to do with this?)
7. Now he's high enough to dair without landing lag.
8. And I don't even know if he can just barrel through me or not, I honestly can't remember.

And I'm just left wondering what happened and how I'm supposed to punish it when as far as I can tell it doesn't leave him open unless he messes up? Someone enlighten me on how to punish Spin Dash please.

</rant> </salt>

It's a little tricky (especially if playing on wifi), but spin dash will lose to jabs - or at least RosaLuma's jab. With customs you also have Shooting Star Bit to clank it from a distance or hit him out of the charge.

I'm not entirely sure what the options are when he hits your shield and upBs away though.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

The more I think about Captain Falcon the more abusive he seems.

Okay so sure his disdvantage is bad, he gets combo'd hard and he hasn't got good options for getting out of juggles. But you know what, Falcon actually gets something out of being Juggled?

Rage.

Falcon on Rage is absurd. He does ridiculous damage with up air which can still combo with rage and if he hits an Fsmash or a side b then you just die at ridiculously low percents. I don't think there are many characters that take advantage of rage like Falcon does. He's highly mobile with great survivability and amazing power with fantastic moves that can take advantage of rage and rack up damage on his opponent. Sure Bowser and Ganon and Dedede can live forever and get rage but their moves aren't as just fundamentally great as Falcon's are.

You take rage out of the game and Falcon is suddenly a much more honest character that doesn't kill you at 70% just because he's being juggled but got one read (heavies have this issue but they don't have Falcon's frame data or mobility specs that many heavies would kill for). I mean, up air's damage is still a little high for my liking but that's literally the only thing I can think of without rage in the game. With rage, Falcon is fundamentally abusive and is, in my opinion, probably top 3 in this game at the moment, no worries.

Honestly I don't like rage at all. Who's idea was it that you should be rewarded for being hit? Lucario having it as the basis of his design was bad enough...

Edit: But if you try to jab the spin dash and he just jumps over it you get hit anyway. The problem is still that Sonic does not have to commit to any one approach whatsoever.

 

[TriTails]

If he hits your shield and Spring Jump away, he can D-air and have it done before he hits the ground, and fall at wtf km/h and land just fine (No D-air land lag).

Though, I present you... HOW TO PLAY SONIC IN FG AT NOOBS!
1. Spin Dash
2. When you hit them, jump, U-air
3. Up-b
4. U-AIR AGAIN!
5. Let the AARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!!! begin as you rinse and repeat
6. ???
7. Profit. Thank you for reading.

...Totally.

 

[Ffamran]

Honestly I don't like rage at all. Who's idea was it that you should be rewarded for being hit? Lucario having it as the basis of his design was bad enough...

For me, the main issue is that rage is universal and not individuated. So, say if it was individuated, then Sheik's rage would be much more different compared to Ganondorf's. Sheik's would be less compared to Ganondorf, so her rage at 150% wouldn't even be barely close to Ganondorf's 50%. This would let Sheik be able to combo even with some knockback increase so that she can push people a bit further for kills instead of killing her own game plan while Ganondorf becomes much, much more dangerous if you can't get rid of him quickly. If it was individuated, Lucario's would and should function differently so that it doesn't severely stack. So, instead of being hypothetically, rage is 50% of Lucario's power and aura is 75%, it should have been 50-50.

 

[Freezie KO]

I can't stand Sonic. Playing against him just doesn't feel like playing Smash Bros. It just feels like the match turns into this weird read-based guessing game. Sonic's ability to run away and come back in with two fast identical moves or a dash attack/grab is just too much of a speed-based mix-up. I don't even know how to "fix" him other than taking him out of the game entirely.

As for Captain Falcon, his recovery is so bad that he's somewhat balanced based on that alone. I wouldn't mind if his dash grab was less ridiculous though.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

For me, the main issue is that rage is universal and not individuated. So, say if it was individuated, then Sheik's rage would be much more different compared to Ganondorf's. Sheik's would be less compared to Ganondorf, so her rage at 150% wouldn't even be barely close to Ganondorf's 50%. This would let Sheik be able to combo even with some knockback increase so that she can push people a bit further for kills instead of killing her own game plan while Ganondorf becomes much, much more dangerous if you can't get rid of him quickly. If it was individuated, Lucario's would and should function differently so that it doesn't severely stack. So, instead of being hypothetically, rage is 50% of Lucario's power and aura is 75%, it should have been 50-50.

That would be better, but i still can't get behind the idea of gaining killing power when your opponent does something right and hits you. No matter how its applied at the end of the day it is still a crutch comeback mechanic that makes being worse than your opponent less of an issue.

 

[Trifroze]

While I do hate to make analogies off of other franchises, I used to say Sonic is to Smash 4 what El Fuerte is to Street Fighter 4. The difference though is that Sonic is a much stronger character compared to the rest of the cast than El Fuerte is in his respective game.

The more I think about Captain Falcon the more abusive he seems.

Okay so sure his disdvantage is bad, he gets combo'd hard and he hasn't got good options for getting out of juggles. But you know what, Falcon actually gets something out of being Juggled?

Rage.

Falcon on Rage is absurd. He does ridiculous damage with up air which can still combo with rage and if he hits an Fsmash or a side b then you just die at ridiculously low percents. I don't think there are many characters that take advantage of rage like Falcon does. He's highly mobile with great survivability and amazing power with fantastic moves that can take advantage of rage and rack up damage on his opponent. Sure Bowser and Ganon and Dedede can live forever and get rage but their moves aren't as just fundamentally great as Falcon's are.

You take rage out of the game and Falcon is suddenly a much more honest character that doesn't kill you at 70% just because he's being juggled but got one read (heavies have this issue but they don't have Falcon's frame data or mobility specs that many heavies would kill for). I mean, up air's damage is still a little high for my liking but that's literally the only thing I can think of without rage in the game. With rage, Falcon is fundamentally abusive and is, in my opinion, probably top 3 in this game at the moment, no worries.

Now the bandwagon is just becoming too strong. Falcon's recovery will always prevent him from having high survivability when there are characters like Villager, Yoshi, Lucario, Bowser, DK and Dedede to compare to. Even Ganondorf survives better than him when he's given customs. Then there are the likes of Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu and MK who are light but have great mobility specs and recovery tools, although they still don't usually survive or quite as long.

Fsmash and side b are 19 and 22 frame moves respectively and have considerable endlag. They aren't a realistic part of Falcon's kit for anything other than punishing, and being punished by a move that slow requires a major mistake on the opponent's part. They are really good for that purpose though, but it still doesn't make them reliable moves. You deserve to get hit by them every time it happens.

Ganondorf has the same frame data as Falcon on most of his moves and his dsmash for example is a lot faster. Sure his jump squat is 8 frames instead of 5, but it's not a huge deal since you're usually in the air pre-emptively when you're going to use aerials instead of buffering them right out of a hop, and when edgeguarding you should usually just drop down especially with Ganondorf's range and wizkick cancel. Ganondorf lacks the speed and CQC tools that Falcon has, but if you simply evaluate their moves irrelevant of any other factors, Ganondorf has better aerials, tilts, smashes and specials overall. Falcon's kit just makes everything work in synergy really well, and he has some key superior moves like dash grab, uair, dash attack, jab and perhaps dair and fsmash (both weaker but have better range and hitboxes).

Calling Falcon top 3 is really discrediting the people who main him and are doing well with him. He's top 10 at best in the current meta, 15th at worst. When you don't use a certain character it's extremely easy to focus on their strengths while underestimating their weaknesses. When you start to seriously use them, it turns the situation around until you finally arrive at a rational view about the character.

 

[L9999]

Falcon's D-throw to N-air tho? Potential WoP.

...Sometimes I do think this character is too overtuned. Probably 1/4 stage foxtrot, Luigi's traction-sytle dash grab, and the list goes on...

Thank God he has bad U-smash. Imagine if he has something like Mario's, it's Falcon Massacre.

Smash 64 then? In that game Falcon's U Smash was really good. If you got hit by it you were DEAD. Up Smash>Uair>Uair>Uair>Uair>Up- B(Yes, Up-B) and BOOM! DEAD! Sure, that game has unfairly high hitstun, but imagine if Captain Falcon still had that Up Smash.

 

[Trifroze]

I forgot to say that rage messes up Falcon's most rewarding low % combos really badly. Rage is a win-lose trade, good in some situations and bad in others. I think it's an interesting mechanic and overall makes heavies work better which they deserve.

Falcon's usmash is a decent move though. It's slow but safe to throw out, has good jump cancel and kills about as early as Fox's. What kinda holds it back is the fact that it's a 2-hit move and the first hit is weak while the second often misses on short characters' shields making it unsafe.

 

[Ffamran]

That would be better, but i still can't get behind the idea of gaining killing power when your opponent does something right and hits you. No matter how its applied at the end of the day it is still a crutch comeback mechanic that makes being worse than your opponent less of an issue.

Rage started in Tekken 6? and it's basically a comeback feature and punishment for being a player who can't kill well, combo well, etc. The main issue is that in Tekken, one mistake can cost you the entire round which is supposedly being fixed in Tekken 7 with parries, powering through moves, etc. while in Tekken 6, it was basically juggle and ping pong with the wall. That sort of works in Tekken as it makes it feel like you can punish hard.

In Smash, eh, it needs to be implemented differently and modified. It could be considered a way to make it so early deaths don't happen. Could you imagine what it would be like if Lucario, Ganondorf, Marth, Ike, Bowser, and DK were constantly in rage? Yeah... At the same time, could you imagine if Ganondorf never was in rage? He's strong, but there's a point where even he gets overpowered and overwhelmed. If anything, rage could have existed only for heavyweights.

If rage only affected damage, it would work differently as knockback is scaled through damage. That might be worse than rage incrementally increasing knockback. There could be individual caps, growths, etc. as well. Or it could affect how moves work, so a Bowser in rage would gain more super armor and that's it while a Ganondorf in rage attacks faster, but not like all his moves come out below frame 5, or perhaps end lag being reduced.

The fact it's a new feature in Smash, but an old feature from Tekken is an issue. It's basically unexplored and we're the guinea pigs. It works for some characters like the heavyweights, but for other characters like Sheik and Lucario, it's not working so well; either it's really good or really bad.

I can't stand Sonic. Playing against him just doesn't feel like playing Smash Bros. It just feels like the match turns into this weird read-based guessing game. Sonic's ability to run away and come back in with two fast identical moves or a dash attack/grab is just too much of a speed-based mix-up. I don't even know how to "fix" him other than taking him out of the game entirely.

As for Captain Falcon, his recovery is so bad that he's somewhat balanced based on that alone. I wouldn't mind if his dash grab was less ridiculous though.

Considering Sonic isn't Nintendo, it makes sense why he plays differently just like how Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Snake felt different to everyone else, especially Mega Man.

His power is a main complaint, but if you make him too weak, then he becomes Brawl Sonic. There is a balance, but I don't know how it would work and if the developers would even bother. Up Smash, Side Smash, and B-throw are the main offenders where Up Smash lingers for a long time, Side Smash is fast and has a lot of range - I think it's disjointed -, and B-throw while nerfed, people still complain about it. Sonic shouldn't be a powerhouse that's faster than Captain Falcon, but he shouldn't be weaker than Sheik as that would just be horribly sad and horribly annoying.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

While I do hate to make analogies off of other franchises, I used to say Sonic is to Smash 4 what El Fuerte is to Street Fighter 4. The difference though is that Sonic is a much stronger character compared to the rest of the cast than El Fuerte is in his respective game.



Now the bandwagon is just becoming too strong. Falcon's recovery will always prevent him from having high survivability when there are characters like Villager, Yoshi, Lucario, Bowser, DK and Dedede to compare to. Even Ganondorf survives better than him when he's given customs. Then there are the likes of Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu and MK who are light but have great mobility specs and recovery tools, although they still don't usually survive or quite as long.

Fsmash and side b are 19 and 22 frame moves respectively and have considerable endlag. They aren't a realistic part of Falcon's kit for anything other than punishing, and being punished by a move that slow requires a major mistake on the opponent's part. They are really good for that purpose though, but it still doesn't make them reliable moves. You deserve to get hit by them every time it happens.

Ganondorf has the same frame data as Falcon on most of his moves and his dsmash for example is a lot faster. Sure his jump squat is 8 frames instead of 5, but it's not a huge deal since you're usually in the air pre-emptively when you're going to use aerials instead of buffering them right out of a hop, and when edgeguarding you should usually just drop down especially with Ganondorf's range and wizkick cancel. Ganondorf lacks the speed and CQC tools that Falcon has, but if you simply evaluate their moves irrelevant of any other factors, Ganondorf has better aerials, tilts, smashes and specials overall. Falcon's kit just makes everything work in synergy really well, and he has some key superior moves like dash grab, uair, dash attack, jab and perhaps dair and fsmash (both weaker but have better range and hitboxes).

Calling Falcon top 3 is really discrediting the people who main him and are doing well with him. He's top 10 at best in the current meta, 15th at worst. When you don't use a certain character it's extremely easy to focus on their strengths while underestimating their weaknesses. When you start to seriously use them, it turns the situation around until you finally arrive at a rational view about the character.

Falcon's Dash Attack is stronger than Ganondorf's?

Isn't it the other way around? Maybe I'm missing some thing haha

 

[thehard]

If I had to pick a character to complain about at this point in time, it would be Olimar. I feel like Nintendo went through all the trouble of balancing each Pikmin with unique attributes, but in the end it doesn't really matter whether you manage them well or not, outside of purples I guess.

I dunno, maybe I'm not familiar enough with how he works? Anyone have "good" recent Olimar gameplay?

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon's Dash Attack is stronger than Ganondorf's?

Isn't it the other way around? Maybe I'm missing some thing haha

Not stronger, but he gets follow-ups out of it unlike Ganondorf, and it comes out faster (frame 7 vs frame 10). Ganondorf's is really good too though, more damage, slightly better hitbox I think and a kill move by itself.

 

[Paper Maribro]

First things first

Calling Falcon top 3 is really discrediting the people who main him and are doing well with him.

If you feel that way then I'm sorry but Falcon is sitting in a really, really good spot right now. I'm not discrediting you because you use a good character and nor am I discrediting anyone else that uses Falcon. This is NOT a personal attack.

Now the bandwagon is just becoming too strong. Falcon's recovery will always prevent him from having high survivability when there are characters like Villager, Yoshi, Lucario, Bowser, DK and Dedede to compare to. Even Ganondorf survives better than him when he's given customs. Then there are the likes of Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu and MK who are light but have great mobility specs and recovery tools, although they still don't usually survive or quite as long.

Getting Falcon off stage for a gimp can be problematic in the first place, and besides his recovery isn't exactly Mac tier anyway. It's not that if I get Falcon off stage that's the stock. You still have to make a decent read. Also, I'm discussing strictly customs off, my region doesn't do customs so it's not something I can quantify.
EDIT: Diddy was also said to have a bad recovery. Having a bad recovery isn't the worst thing in the world if your advantaged state is amazing and characters find it hard to get you off stage anyway.

Fsmash and side b are 19 and 22 frame moves respectively and have considerable endlag. They aren't a realistic part of Falcon's kit for anything other than punishing, and being punished by a move that slow requires a major mistake on the opponent's part. They are really good for that purpose though, but it still doesn't make them reliable moves. You deserve to get hit by them every time it happens.

Fsmash isn't that laggy really, I can think of worse fsmashes and the range and animation of it are great. Side b is horribly laggy, yeah but it's risk reward and at the end of the day if Falcon can take your stock with either one of these moves off a good read or punish and seal your stock at 70% then why wouldn't you take the risk? If you miss? Stock gone but now all your combos moves are fresh and you can start racking up the damage again and get the kill without too much trouble. You land it? Welp.

He's top 10 at best in the current meta, 15th at worst. When you don't use a certain character it's extremely easy to focus on their strengths while underestimating their weaknesses. When you start to seriously use them, it turns the situation around until you finally arrive at a rational view about the character.

He's higher than top 10. He was top 10 pre patch and then he didn't really get touched while other top tiers all had minor or major nerfs. He's seriously good.

 

[Ffamran]

Not stronger, but he gets follow-ups out of it unlike Ganondorf, and it comes out faster (frame 7 vs frame 10). Ganondorf's is really good too though, more damage, slightly better hitbox I think and a kill move by itself.

Doesn't Ganondorf's dash attack move him faster, though? Does Captain Falcon's do that too or is it not noticeable like with Ganondorf's? And there's Samus's where it can phase through people like Ike because of the startup animation.

Speaking of dash attacks, I hate Pikachu's. It's a kill move, right?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Rage started in Tekken 6? and it's basically a comeback feature and punishment for being a player who can't kill well, combo well, etc.

See: Samurai Showdown/ CVS2.

Doesn't Ganondorf's dash attack move him faster, though? Does Captain Falcon's do that too or is it not noticeable like with Ganondorf's? And there's Samus's where it can phase through people like Ike because of the startup animation.

Speaking of dash attacks, I hate Pikachu's. It's a kill move, right?

Yeah, its hella more noticeable with Ganondorf than Captain Falcon.

Not stronger, but he gets follow-ups out of it unlike Ganondorf, and it comes out faster (frame 7 vs frame 10). Ganondorf's is really good too though, more damage, slightly better hitbox I think and a kill move by itself.

Ah yeah I was referring to its kill power, should've been more specific haha
Its kills at 140% guaranteed IIRC.

But yeah, I see what you mean with the follow ups and what not

 

[Lavani]

slightly better hitbox I think

Ganondorf's dash attack has slightly bigger hitboxes than Falcon's, but Falcon's are placed much further in front of him giving him more forward disjoint.

Speaking of dash attacks, I hate Pikachu's. It's a kill move, right?

It is.

 

[Ffamran]

It is.

It shouldn't be.

 

[Antonykun]

It shouldn't be.

You say it like Pika has one million kill moves

 

[HeavyLobster]

Not stronger, but he gets follow-ups out of it unlike Ganondorf, and it comes out faster (frame 7 vs frame 10). Ganondorf's is really good too though, more damage, slightly better hitbox I think and a kill move by itself.

Ganondorf does get some followups out of Dash Attack, though they're generally not guaranteed. Falcon's followups are more of a function of his overall mobility than the move itself being superior. Also their Uairs serve completely different functions that play into their respective strengths, with Falcon's being great for combos and juggles, while Ganondorf's is both better as a defensive move with better ground coverage and as an edgeguarding tool/kill move due to its superior power and horizontal knockback. Falcon's works well with his excellent mobility for juggling, while Ganondorf's is good at putting the opponent in a corner and then finishing off said cornered opponent. Ganondorf would desperately like to have Falcon's dash grab and jab though, no questions asked.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The worst thing they did with Sonic's design, as a fighter in Smash Bros, was giving him the ability to jump during a Spin Dash/Charge.

If it had properties more similar to Jigglypuff's Rollout, both charging and unleashing the move, it would be a lot more fair. And he would be a lot more fair in general.

Unfortunately, Sonic as a design concept in general is flawed. For 3D games, he is flawed because moving so fast = more models to make/for you to blaze through on the screen, as well as more attention being made on capturing the feel of the experience as opposed to bug fixes. And for Smash Bros, he is flawed because he needs to jump during his spindash in order to capture the feel from his games, and because fast characters usually end up being the best in most fighting games. And Sonic is the the videogame definition of fast.

I guess it makes sense though, as he harasses the power of Chaos. And if there is one other thing you can use to describe Sonic in a nutshell, it is chaos. Definitely sums up his games, as well as the role he assumes in the games he is in.


EDIT: Or, at the very least, not being able to double jump out of Spin Dash/Charge.

 

[Freezie KO]

If I had to pick a character to complain about at this point in time, it would be Olimar. I feel like Nintendo went through all the trouble of balancing each Pikmin with unique attributes, but in the end it doesn't really matter whether you manage them well or not, outside of purples I guess.

I dunno, maybe I'm not familiar enough with how he works? Anyone have "good" recent Olimar gameplay?

As an Olimar main, I actually couldn't disagree more. Each pikmin has very specific uses.

The whites are great for pummels and toss, but not smashes or attacks. Whites have the best grab and toss range also. Reds are great for smashes. Blues are great for throws. Blue back throw is powerful, and the up throw is a kill throw. VERY important. Yellows are slightly bigger hitboxes, arc differently in the air, and cause more hitstun. The hitstun for Yellow makes dealing with them very important for low percentage combos. Purples... well, you already know what it is.

I'm not saying this is amazing gameplay, but I actually just played Nairo yesterday (coincidentally) as part of his For Glory stream. I posted the VODs in THIS POST. I was able to at least keep up with a top player, so you can see how I handle my different pikmin.

 

[Trifroze]

Doesn't Ganondorf's dash attack move him faster, though? Does Captain Falcon's do that too or is it not noticeable like with Ganondorf's? And there's Samus's where it can phase through people like Ike because of the startup animation.

Speaking of dash attacks, I hate Pikachu's. It's a kill move, right?

Ganondorf does get a huge boost for a short period at the beginning of his dash attack. It's somewhere between Falcon and sanic speed while Falcon continues at roughly his own running speed but summons a hitbox 3 feet ahead of him. Effectively they're about the same speed, which is impressive for Ganondorf.

Ganondorf does get some followups out of Dash Attack, though they're generally not guaranteed. Falcon's followups are more of a function of his overall mobility than the move itself being superior. Also their Uairs serve completely different functions that play into their respective strengths, with Falcon's being great for combos and juggles, while Ganondorf's is both better as a defensive move with better ground coverage and as an edgeguarding tool/kill move due to its superior power and horizontal knockback. Falcon's works well with his excellent mobility for juggling, while Ganondorf's is good at putting the opponent in a corner and then finishing off said cornered opponent. Ganondorf would desperately like to have Falcon's dash grab and jab though, no questions asked.

True, I started thinking about the uairs after posting. While Ganondorf's isn't good for juggling, it has a much better arc. Main point in my response being though that there's no point looking at moves separately from the character they're connected to. A lot of heavies, especially Ganondorf, have seemingly better individual moves than Falcon so Ganon doesn't really wish he had Falcon's moves. I'd rather say Ganondorf wishes he had Falcon's mobility, while Falcon wishes he had Ganondorf's moves.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

It shouldn't be.

Do you think it should just be pointless like it was in brawl? I guess I can see it being less powerful than it is currently but it's not like you don't get punished hard for whiffing it. When Pikachu is running at you like that you should really be careful anyway since he has hyphen up smash.

Edit:

The worst thing they did with Sonic's design, as a fighter in Smash Bros, was giving him the ability to jump during a Spin Dash/Charge.

If it had properties more similar to Jigglypuff's Rollout, both charging and unleashing the move, it would be a lot more fair. And he would be a lot more fair in general.

Here's the thing: if this change was made, or if his killing power was lowered like it was in Brawl, he would be trash. Because his design is such garbage when applied to a fighting game engine that its just impossible to balance. No matter what they do to balance the character without changing the fundamental design, he will either be great or awful. But if you lowered the speed and the unpredictability at the core of the character it would no longer be Sonic, so they won't. It's like they just directly ported Sonic out of one of his 2D side scrollers and expected it to not be a problem.

Okay now I'm going to bed, all this Sonic talk is bad for my blood pressure.

 

[Shaya]

It's a little tricky (especially if playing on wifi), but spin dash will lose to jabs - or at least RosaLuma's jab. With customs you also have Shooting Star Bit to clank it from a distance or hit him out of the charge.

I'm not entirely sure what the options are when he hits your shield and upBs away though.

He cannot jump or use any other specials once he up-bs. His Down Air auto cancels sure, but it really isn't godlike assuming you're not on wifi. My rule of thumb "punish" is 'guess where sonic's going to try to land, usually obvious by the way he moves after up-bing; dash grab it'. His aerial mobility is good but his deceleration seems pretty average. His dair is vulnerable behind him. Anything else he's using won't be safe on shield, crouching into one is very difficult for him to do anything about.

Otherwise if Sonic's jumping after he hits your shield, instantly air dodging out of a jump OoS can't be hit by him most of the time. If he Up-Bs then you can air dodge again to cover instant down air (or if you're confident, up airs/bairs) and if he waits for it it can suddenly be a situation he won't auto cancel his landing.

You can also shield drop into a reshield which should be getting you a power shield on the spring with a bit of timing and then you can jump air dodge aerial just about everything he can do when you know which direction he's facing.

tl;dr scare sonic to fall a little further after jump spring to negate the auto cancel dair and his options go down to nearly zero.

Otherwise dealing with Sonic's "unreactable" stuff involves mid-range dynamics. You definitely know he's side-bing or down-bing well before he can hit you and being at a distance in which you can react with jump air dodge, shield holding or roll in on movement is pretty solid means for negating a lot of the pressure those moves have. Knowing which one is coming out is also important, down-b is multi hit while on the ground while side-b is a single hit (both throw out a hitbox when they jump), so it's easy to mess up dealing with down-b by dropping shield or jumping earlier. Side-B once fully charged cannot be cancelled into shield (will be the one he does out of a dash) so baiting out a long charge gives you a lot of punishment opportunity, he can still jump but he still remains unable to cancel it and will be forced to dash forward at some point, down-b you'll hear the multiple charges, and can be cancelled with a jump at any stage but just puts him into a poor position realistically doing so, once he releases it he's gonna go fast but I think the more strict conditions for use make it manageable. Remember that the both once moving have a static trajectory when they jump and is briefly vulnerable (but this is why baiting out something with an air dodge can be so good, there's only one meaningful timing he can "hit you").

Hopefully this all makes sense !_!
If it's a helpful comparison, Toon Link in Brawl was basically the same degree of **** you couldn't react to and you had to play thinking 3-4 steps ahead in advance to ever capitalise against him. Sonic is mostly safe from retaliation during any of his 2nd-4th steps, but he can't negate the punishment opportunities for the rest.

 

[Ulevo]

Saying Captain Falcon's recovery is bad in this game when he has that hilariously enormous command grab hitbox on Falcon Dive is silly, honestly.

 

[Shaya]

He doesn't really have much variance in when he can jump safely and if you have something like Sheik's nair, coming in from above [+slightly behind helps] you're trading with the "grab" (like a regular grab) at worst and that's often sufficient for ending his life.

In terms of ledge drop edge guarding though, he's pretty capable of surviving, and he should be usually able to get back in terms of distance. He's definitely more exploitable and likelier to die than Diddy is though.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think this tier list is kind of accurate (imo).

In my opinion:
- Puff is the worst of the puffballs
- MK and Kirby should be in B
- Pikachu should be higher
- Sheik isn't the best character

Also, if Sheik ended up dominating the meta, Kirby would instantly become a great character. The Sheik/Kirby MU is mostly even, with the Diddy MU not being good. Kirby also has an easy time vs ZSS and Falcon.

Until the Sheik days come, Kirby sits at the meh spots.

 

[Cassio]

Also talking about for glory and/or captain falcon...
How is he not the campiest character you EVER play on it?

Have you ever played melee ? Joking of course (but not really...)

Also disagree @ people saying pika is too low. Honestly you couldve picked most of A tier out of a hat and itd be just as accurate as any other list for the time being.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record I would much rather have a game full of gods then a game full of weaklings. I just don't like how ****ing easy some of the nonsense is. Even when I play Sheik I know I can't trade with people or just attack stupidly. I have to pick my moments. Yes, She is super safe but she can't just jump around or run around. She does require thought. When I see CF and yeah Sonic too, I just see flowcharts and the **** works and it's annoying not to mention effective.

The worst part about CF to me is this. He has no figure head imo and due to this I feel most of the CF community plays him only to about 20% of his full potential. There is no CF to me that is pushing his meta.

Marth today is very different from Marth in week one. There are several people pushing his meta. Same for many characters. CF isn't getting pushed. He's the same damn char and the **** works. Which is dumb because it proves this extra regular basic bro shenanigans is enough to get hit top 8 representation and sad because he might NEVER become more then roll/run around, get the grab d-throw combo/air trap set-up, rinse repeat

 

[bc1910]

Where is this coming from, all of a sudden? Why are people complaining about Falcon when (an admittedly nerfed) Sonic exists? Am I missing something? Everything Falcon does, Sonic does much more obnoxiously, while being far harder to gimp because of the invincibility on his spring.

Being a less stupid version of the most cancerous character in the game is not a good thing lol.

Plus Falcon's advantage, trap game and normals are definitely better than Sonic's and you can make a very strong case for Falcon's neutral being better than Sonic's.

And I'm just left wondering what happened and how I'm supposed to punish it when as far as I can tell it doesn't leave him open unless he messes up? Someone enlighten me on how to punish Spin Dash please.

</rant> </salt>

Good Sonic players will tell you that the best way to deal with Spin Dash is to just jab him while he charges at you. The jab will usually clank but they say this is "amazing" against a character who is "bad up close". I guess his fast grab and good throws, decent jab combo and SH aerials and (above all) the fact that he can escape by using grounded spring or just running away don't count as being good up close options, but whatever.

The best way to deal with Spin Dash bar none is to hit it with an aerial because aerials beat it, but that's easier said than done.

I have also been told that Spin Dash is only good because of the invincible hop at the start. Sonic players...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic is silly. CF is not silly so much as abusive. Sonic I probably have less of an issue with simply because at this point 6WX is the only Sonic to ever beat me in tourney. I have obliterated every other Sonic to cross my path and that's not with Crescent Slash, but with default Marth.

CF however, even when I fight someone that is weaker then me I still have to be on my A game because honestly risk v reward is kinda borked. To beat him I basically have to allow myself in his territory then rely on defensive pivot based techniques to net a grab, d-tilt or dancing blade and get him in the air and go for resets. Something he can do far easier and more reliably. Which makes no sense because when you look at his moves he is clearly meant to be a combo oriented character and heavy punisher, not a hard-core trap based character but the mobility allows for it. It does add a layer of complexity to his game and I see alot of potential but again all I see is basic stuff and CF players are not pushing that aspect of his game the way they should imo.

Edit: There is @Gawain for CF, but the CF community doesnt seem to be implementing his meta findings into their gameplay which is a shame because he comes up with some sick ****.

 

[Shaya]

@ Emblem Lord
I do like sour back air with him. That's something. But he's purely a reactionary focused character, his tools are so strong he rarely needs to respect the opposing character enough to alter the strategies that work for them as they do right now (often just a matter of timing and patience). Falcon plays similar in most match ups, what he goes for and how he achieves things remain stable throughout. He has mechanical prowess at his maximum capabilities but he rarely needs it, he had great walling tools but rarely has to worry about spacing over "use most relevant fastest attack ASAP", he's meant to fight people up close but is best played moving around a third of the stage away.

I think he just does too much damage for his hitbox sizes, range, mobility and weight. 1-2% damage off a lot of his moves would probably put him in a good spot. I also think if players were using him near his maximum potential we'd all be perpetually vomiting (from excitement, maybe).

Fatality is probably the best mechanical Falcon I've seen although I have an inkling Japanese Falcon's are on to it already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv6qhTvur_Q is an extraordinary display of styling that I can't deny is stunning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usvy9o5ck_U
more recent and in tournament
fav quote "it's like you know what he's going to do, but what do you do against it? it's not even a guess anymore you know the down air is coming" "or the up air, or the neutral air or the... yeah"

I can better understand Reflex's convictions... better now. I wish I saw more of you playing though, need to look out for 645 more often? :O
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BskW4No_iM I don't get to see enough Wario, let alone with customs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

oh..my....GAH!!!! A CF that knows the power of Nair.

Too ****ing sexy.

Also..this

Can't wait to see this stuff become standard.

 

[bc1910]

In the UK scene there are more Sonic players than Falcon players. In tourney I have lost to Sonics but never to Falcon, although that really comes down to the Sonic MU being horrible for Greninja and the Falcon MU being doable because Greninja's edgeguarding is actually good enough to exploit Falcon's recovery. This is despite Greninja getting bodied up close just as hard, probably harder, than other characters. Of course dealing with Falcon's up close game was much more bearable before Greninja was stupidly overnerfed and shurikens weren't gutter trash and could actually keep him out and rant rant rant...

Anyway, lately I've found Falcon players much harder to deal with because I think they're getting.. I want to say better, but I know I mean more abusive. In the ways that you stated. Dash in, roll around, bait something out, punish hard and trap you forever. Jab and beat almost everything you can do up close, maybe setting up an edgeguard situation.

I don't even mind Falcon being strong... I have no issues with any character in that regard except Sonic. I try very hard to take & enjoy the game for what it is. For me it's just really disheartening because more and more MUs crop up where I can just switch to Sheik and win more easily. I put a lot of work into my Sheik but it's nothing compared to the work (not to mention loyalty) I have for Greninja. I guess I'm just sick of feeling neutered by cheese and having to counter it with cheese of my own.