Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Tier lists really don't matter this game (at least this early) but even if they did matter, if you see something obviously like Lucina being higher than Marth just ignore it.

Tiers dont matter because the patch says "**** your metagame"

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon isn't 16th best. My guess is that he's around 35-40th in customs off and 25-30th in customs on. Even those placements might be too high due to me undervaluing other characters.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Fake or not, this just happened: http://smashboards.com/threads/newest-german-tier-list.398286/.

Edit: Here's the list.

Anyone ever heard of the game Germany or Florida? Not really shocked that something like this would come from there of all places lol. Any list that has Lucina higher than Marth is in desperate need of editing, let alone the other wtf placements. Although if they have a DDD thats actually that good Id love to see it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I mean

No disrespect to my friends across the pond, but...this guy? High tier?

Gimme some of this Euro-tech that makes D3 toe-to-toe some of these characters, man. Jesus. I'd love to pop up at my locals and regionals and start bopping kids.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, it's fake. The main German Smash 4 community, Smashlabs, doesn't do tier lists - at least not yet.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, since you're here, @ Budget Player Cadet_ , can you confirm the existence of non-Spanish D3 mains in Euroland?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, since you're here, @ Budget Player Cadet_ , can you confirm the existence of non-Spanish D3 mains in Euroland?

Smooth Criminal

Slavoslav is a German DDD who has done some pretty sick things in online tournaments. I don't know that we have any recordings, but it's a name to watch.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, it's fake. The main German Smash 4 community, Smashlabs, doesn't do tier lists - at least not yet.

At least this list supposedly used results alongside voting unlike other places that just vote through popularity and first impressions. So, if it's based on both results with some popularity, it's already decently legit compared to say, Eventhubs. In other words, there's no Falco placing well except this Falco and there's probably a lot of Ganondorfs placing well along with popular voting.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Yeah, it's fake. The main German Smash 4 community, Smashlabs, doesn't do tier lists - at least not yet.

At least they had the decency to keep Diddy and Sheik up top and SF at the bottom. Keep dreaming for that tech Criminal!

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

At least this list supposedly used results alongside voting unlike other places that just vote through popularity and first impressions. So, if it's based on both results with some popularity, it's already decently legit compared to say, Eventhubs. In other words, there's no Falco placing well except this Falco and there's probably a lot of Ganondorfs placing well along with popular voting.

It sucks, the only good Falcos are ones who are rare or non-existent in any tournament scene. Then there are the joke Falcos like Keitaro's and Megafox's. And I don't know if it's just me, but every time there is a good Ganondorf or Falco in a competitive setting, they're restricted purely to online or 3DS play. It's like all expert Ganon/Falco mains are people who don't have the means to attend tournaments and make a name for their characters. I want to see Gungnir in more SHI-G videos (there are only two of him from an online tournament, and one has him getting destroyed by a Game & Watch). And I want to see more of that wavebouncing Falco we saw in that one video of Pon's For Glory session. Dammit.

 

[Ffamran]

It sucks, the only good Falcos are ones who are rare or non-existent in any tournament scene. Then there are the joke Falcos like Keitaro's and Megafox's. And I don't know if it's just me, but every time there is a good Ganondorf or Falco in a competitive setting, they're restricted purely to online or 3DS play. It's like all expert Ganon/Falco mains are people who don't have the means to attend tournaments and make a name for their characters. I want to see Gungnir in more SHI-G videos (there are only two of him from an online tournament, and one has him getting destroyed by a Game & Watch). And I want to see more of that wavebouncing Falco we saw in that one video of Pon's For Glory session. Dammit.

GimR's Falco is amazing despite being a secondary, I don't think Cyro or Pawclaw goes to major tournaments, the users at the Falco boards aren't well-known either and I don't know if they go to major tournaments, and then you have the online Falco players alongside Falco players from lesser known scenes like Manny Manito, a Puerto Rican Falco. Also, TKBreezy apparently plays Falco and I don't even know if Keitaro plays Falco anymore.

So, you end up with this horribly skewed perception of a character who has no major results and is rarely found versus a character that is everywhere or people don't have a clear answer to them like Yoshi in Japan, but the main difference is that this is worldwide while Yoshi at least is popular and doing well in one region.

Edit: Add in Ike, Peach, Wii Fit Trainer, Dr. Mario, and practically about half the cast who also have incredible, but few players.

 

[Macedonian]

Keitaro said on stream yesterday durring the smash forever tournament said somthing along the lines of that he loves to play falco and wishes he could.

People like FOW and shofu also have pretty beastly falcos they can play.

I've seen this before on here where people look at charachters that arnt played much in tourney like WFT and falco and just say that they need representation at a high level to really show there potential. But at some point I ask myself man maybe there's a good reason people would never touch these charachters in tourney.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Too Low: EDIT:
Too High:

And these are really just the most notable "WTF?"s.

"oh contrare" people have simply yet to realize thats there samus trully belongs.
but yes the list is puzzling.

 

[thehard]

@ Seagull Joe Curious as to where you see Sonic on the tier list, and why?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Fake or not, this just happened: http://smashboards.com/threads/newest-german-tier-list.398286/.

And people complained about reddit's tier list, this is seriously wonky, so many characters need MASSIVE movement in both high tier and low tier. Yuck.

 

[warionumbah2]

Reddit tier list,Eventhub tier list,Community tier lists, Germa- they're all ****ed either way.

 

[Antonykun]

And people complained about reddit's tier list, this is seriously wonky, so many characters need MASSIVE movement in both high tier and low tier. Yuck.

I'll admit the reddit tier list desensitized me to bad tier list
Because i could feel the logic in the reddit list

 

[Djent]

Of all the opponents Edge defeated at Super Sumabato, Earth w/ was the only one who managed to avoid getting steamrolled:

This match is really interesting because it shows how important wall clinging can be to Diddy's ability to mix up his recovery, as well as showing how Pit's arrows make a noticeable difference in this matchup. During Game 1 Earth uses well placed arrows to rack up damage while Edge-guarding, almost securing gimps at several points. Edge responds by counterpicking to Ω-Wily Castle and using wall clings to avoid the setups and even to recover from otherwise-guaranteed death-depth. Game 3 is honestly just download complete, which is too bad because this set was very engaging otherwise.

Since Nairo already thinks can fight without superior arrows, I think the monkey's MU vs. Pit is probably close to even.

 

[Project Quarantine]

If the big N were smart, they'd ignore tier lists and focus on the matches themselves. Some things, like Rosalina shutting down Pacman to the point of public Twitter salt, or Diddy's Hoo-hah getting such a strong audience reaction, are more likely to get looked into than "Japan says Wario is A tier".

Of course I haven't actually seen any JP tournies to go off of in saying that. Is there any outstanding Wario play wherein something outstanding enough to be looked into happened? If Wario is high-tier due to this outstanding thing then that would be cause to look into it. if Wario is high-tier because he's a well-rounded character, then that's really more the fault of all the other characters not being as versatile, which is what should logically be looked into.

I'm anticipating the most outstanding factors being hack-sawed, and the tier lists, if ever referenced, being used as a 'who could stand to be given some tiny changes?' guide. Here's hoping Marth/Lucina and Mii Sword get some love.

Abadango is one of the best players in Japan, and Apex top 8 finisher. He mains Pac-Man and Wario (arguably the best in the world at both characters). He is the reason for the Pac and Wario placements on the tier list, I assume.

Of all the opponents Edge defeated at Super Sumabato, Earth w/ was the only one who managed to avoid getting steamrolled:

This match is really interesting because it shows how important wall clinging can be to Diddy's ability to mix up his recovery, as well as showing how Pit's arrows make a noticeable difference in this matchup. During Game 1 Earth uses well placed arrows to rack up damage while Edge-guarding, almost securing gimps at several points. Edge responds by counterpicking to Ω-Wily Castle and using wall clings to avoid the setups and even to recover from otherwise-guaranteed death-depth. Game 3 is honestly just download complete, which is too bad because this set was very engaging otherwise.

Since Nairo already thinks can fight without superior arrows, I think the monkey's MU vs. Pit is probably close to even.

While I do think that matchup is at least close to even, it seemed like Edge didn't really know the matchup or how exactly to fight Pit, especially when Earth would capitalize correctly on advantages positions where diddy is in the air. It was more of a surprise factor in Earth's favor. This we can see as Edge seemed to adapt quickly to the Pit play stye.

Reddit tier list,Eventhub tier list,Community tier lists, Germa- they're all ****ed either way.

I have never seen a tier list that hasn't had at least a few major flaws based on my opinions as a competitive player. This isn't saying that my tier list is the only correct one, it's just that any tier list is extremely janky to some people. For these reasons, I really don't think tier lists should be for public voting. Rather, a single (probably high level) player should create one and show for others to debate on forums like this. This will create a more friendly and constructive baseline for conversation, instead of including inexperienced outliers. IMO

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking today about Mewtwo (don't worry this isn't actually Mewtwo speculation but more a starting point), and the fact that it's most likely going to be a throw-oriented character as it was in Melee, and how this might be tricky given the lack of grab armor in Smash 4.

Putting aside Mewtwo specifically, it made me wonder if the strength of shields in this game (rapid regeneration, fewer auto-canceled aerials, etc.) goes hand in hand with the loss of grab armor, as if it's all designed to emphasize the offense/defense wheel even more (attack beats grab, grab beats shield, shield beats attack). How different would this game look if they never got rid of grab armor?

 

[TheZyzyva]

Putting aside Mewtwo specifically, it made me wonder if the strength of shields in this game (rapid regeneration, fewer auto-canceled aerials, etc.) goes hand in hand with the loss of grab armor, as if it's all designed to emphasize the offense/defense wheel even more (attack beats grab, grab beats shield, shield beats attack). How different would this game look if they never got rid of grab armor?

Well considering how strong grab is still without the armor, if it were in place still we would have some seriously broken characters. I think those with strong kill throws and great combos out of throws are allowed to have them because grabs are no longer as safe. I think they could have even gone further though, as the power of dash grab is still way too high (The Captain sends his regards)

 

[Blobface]

last patch was 100% japanese tier based, were diddy was like D tier at that time and greninja like A.

That patch was before Apex.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Kong cyclone is ridiculous. Average Joe has won through sheer cheese (I don't like this terminology) with Kong cyclone, but he's also stepped up his fundamentals and mindset recently. I won't discredit that. His recent results with customs banned reflect that. I told him that myself.

If you watch john numbers vs dkWill kong cyclone doesn't look ridiculous. Not only did it not look ridiculous WFT up B looked vastly superior to it.

 

[Trieste SP]

Reddit tier list,Eventhub tier list,Community tier lists, Germa- they're all ****ed either way.

These 'flaws' are probably the product of the character balance achieved in this game. We can all agree on the top 2 characters but below that, things get fuzzy. Everyone has their own opinion of an ideal tier list, because of this, the prospect of creating a tier list without any objections from players is impossible.

 

[Seagull Joe]

@ Seagull Joe Curious as to where you see Sonic on the tier list, and why?

He should be 5th behind , , , and . I think those 4 characters are better.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon isn't 16th best. My guess is that he's around 35-40th in customs off and 25-30th in customs on. Even those placements might be too high due to me undervaluing other characters.

I'd say Ganon is the middest of the mid, maybe a bit higher with customs on because Dark Fists is amazing.

On Kong Cyclone: Kong Cyclone has a significant limitation in that you must autocancel it. (When DKWill fought Boss, he missed an autocancel and Boss ran all the away across smashville and still had plenty of time to bop him with SJP.) Because of this, the amount of places DK can move with it are very limited. If he's grounded/slightly above stage, he can go to platforms. If he's offstage, he can go to the main stage. What this means is that you almost always know where he's going to go with it, with the single exception being Battlefield which is easily Kong Cyclone's best stage.

On top of that, being on a platform with someone below you is always a bad thing. If Kong Cyclone doesn't hit, DK is in disadvantage.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Another thing about Kong Cyclone is that it gets completely stuffed by command grabs and I'm pretty sure there a few other moves that just stop it.

I know the move is near useless against Wario because he can just Bite you out of it, and if he does it off stage it's pretty much a free stock for Wario since he can actually recover deep. (Provided he has the bike ready, which is why Speeding Bike is ideal for this match up imo.)

 

[Project Quarantine]

He should be 5th behind , , , and . I think those 4 characters are better.

Is this with or without customs on? With customs I believe sonic is also behind Rosaluma, but ahead of ZSS

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is this with or without customs on? With customs I believe sonic is also behind Rosaluma, but ahead of ZSS

Without. Forgot about . Nevermind. is 6th.

 

[thehard]

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash Bizzarro Flame is playing custom Ganon at Come On and Ban. It was said he thinks Smash 4 is really cool and wants to practice more. Got sent to Losers' though

 

[Blobface]

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash Bizzarro Flame is playing custom Ganon at Come On and Ban. It was said he thinks Smash 4 is really cool and wants to practice more. Got sent to Losers' though

IS HE USING DARK FISTS?
Today is the day, Ganon mains! Today is the day that... people call for Dark Fists to be banned.

Glad to hear about Bizzaro Flame. It's nice to have a new Ganon main, and having some Melee players join Smash 4 is great too.

 

[thehard]

IS HE USING DARK FISTS?
Today is the day, Ganon mains! Today is the day that... people call for Dark Fists to be banned.

Glad to hear about Bizzaro Flame. It's nice to have a new Ganon main, and having some Melee players join Smash 4 is great too.

I think he was, but he only got on stream for the one set. Chained 3 Flame Chokes in a row. You could tell he was trying to style a lot (throwing out dairs like no one's business)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/4012345?t=56m29s

Here's one of Bizzaro Flame's matches. Did not see any Dark Fists in it though.

 

[Cyro]

I don't think Cyro or Pawclaw goes to major tournaments

Yeah, unfortunately limited to SoCal.
At that, I'm not even very active since I don't always have the time to make it to locals.
There is a very slim chance I'm going to EVO, but we'll just have to see.

 

[Hippieslayer]

based on my experiences playing wario on for glory he is definitely top tier

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/4012345?t=56m29s

Here's one of Bizzaro Flame's matches. Did not see any Dark Fists in it though.

wtf is he doing, at first he was like "ima troll" but then once he saw he was losing the match he tried to go serious and it became pretty obvious he didnt know how to play ganon at all not hyped

 

[webbedspace]

Not much to see there, but skip to here http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/4012345?t=3h58m47s if you want to see a Toon Link in finals

Spoiler

who loses both winners and losers 3-1, but w/e

EDIT: By the way, I only just saw this up-tilt kill http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/3930600?t=6h10m58s I tried to see if there was a thread explaining the physics behind it, but the only one I found was this, which blamed it on two circumstances (rage and hit-out-of-charge knockback) which don't seem to be as prominent this time.

 

[TriTails]

Yo guys.

Tell me what do you guys think about VS .

People say that it's heavily in Villager's favor.

But me says otherwise.

I mean:
- 's Fireballs murders camping attempts with 's Rocket
- 's N-air eats slingshots
- 's recovery isn't as gimpable by bowling ball as one might think. I either just recover high or bait out a F-smash and buy my time with Cyclone
- 's grab is horrible at getting Luigi away once he gets in

So what do you guys think? I myself think it's even or even in Luigi's favor, but maybe it's just me that doesn't know much about the MU.

Yeah, this will change in 5 days. I don't care, really. I just want to know the general consensus on this one.

 

[Yikarur]

I think under custom: on 1122 smallthin Mii Brawler is the best character in the game. If not now (because of Diddy) then propably post patch.

I'm so confused about Mii Brawler being ranked like Top3 my m2k and Zero because they just played default size. The smallthin Mii Brawler is at least 5 times better.

 

[HeavyLobster]

wtf is he doing, at first he was like "ima troll" but then once he saw he was losing the match he tried to go serious and it became pretty obvious he didnt know how to play ganon at all not hyped

He's still playing Meleedorf. Needs to Nair and Dash Attack more.

 

[Antonykun]

Yo guys.

Tell me what do you guys think about VS .

People say that it's heavily in Villager's favor.

But me says otherwise.

I mean:
- 's Fireballs murders camping attempts with 's Rocket
- 's N-air eats slingshots
- 's recovery isn't as gimpable by bowling ball as one might think. I either just recover high or bait out a F-smash and buy my time with Cyclone
- 's grab is horrible at getting Luigi away once he gets in

So what do you guys think? I myself think it's even or even in Luigi's favor, but maybe it's just me that doesn't know much about the MU.

Yeah, this will change in 5 days. I don't care, really. I just want to know the general consensus on this one.

how is luigi getting in? without getting punished? Villager actually wants to be in umbrella range for this one. You know Luigi's combo break n-air? Villager has it too
Luigi can't be gimped by F-smash? Ok Villy'll just n-air or d-air spike him