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Character Competitive Impressions

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TriTails

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Luigi just sits there, spamming Fireballs while N-air-ing any F-airs or B-airs. BOOM! Villy has to approach.

Simply having a combo breaker doesn't shuts Luigi's combos up. Mario has one and Luigi still beat him. All you need to do is to not double chop after D-throw, and instead go for some more interesting things instead (Chop + N-air, Nado, B-air, stuff like that).

And I'm having a hard time believeing Villager can gimp Luigi if he recovers high with Cyclone. Sure, he runs the risk of getting U-smashed in the face, but that is honestly better than getting your head bashed with bowling balls or trees that pops out of nowhere.

Plus, mindgames exist :p.
 
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Nobie

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I'm not a Luigi expert, but the big question with Luigi in just about any matchup is, how difficult is it for him to get that vital grab? Against Mario who similarly has a fairly short range, it's not that big of an issue because he wants to fight in the same territory. Against a zoner like Mega Man, it becomes a tall order because he shuts down fireballs and has fantastic air speed.

The reason why people are saying that Villager has a good matchup against Luigi is not that Villager can get out of Luigi's combos but that he prevents Luigi from getting them started in the first place.
 

GeneralLedge

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Abadango is one of the best players in Japan, and Apex top 8 finisher. He mains Pac-Man and Wario (arguably the best in the world at both characters). He is the reason for the Pac and Wario placements on the tier list, I assume.
Okay I'm confused now. Why are people placing characters at high points on the tier list when the determining factor is the player?

In either case, if the factor that puts Wario at an A is only player skill, then there shouldn't be any worry for a nerf to Wario. Makes me seriously question the viability of existing tier lists when the true factor is player talent, though.
 

HeroMystic

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Simply having a combo breaker doesn't shuts Luigi's combos up. Mario has one and Luigi still beat him.
Not going to go into vs Villager, but I don't believe Luigi beats Mario anymore. Mario's neutral game is leagues ahead of Luigi's.

Also if you recover high, Villager can U-air juggle Luigi and go for frame traps. You're way too floaty to be recovering high for that to be a safe option.
 

Hippieslayer

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Okay I'm confused now. Why are people placing characters at high points on the tier list when the determining factor is the player?

In either case, if the factor that puts Wario at an A is only player skill, then there shouldn't be any worry for a nerf to Wario. Makes me seriously question the viability of existing tier lists when the true factor is player talent, though.
For instance because of like pikachu with Esam.
 

andimidna

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Okay I'm confused now. Why are people placing characters at high points on the tier list when the determining factor is the player?

In either case, if the factor that puts Wario at an A is only player skill, then there shouldn't be any worry for a nerf to Wario. Makes me seriously question the viability of existing tier lists when the true factor is player talent, though.
When people say a character is ranked because of a player, i don't think it's exactly like that
More like...
The use of a character can show viability, and the most used characters are usually the best
And more important for this particular placement, Abadongo's use of Wario has shown what Wario can do and how he can win certain MUs
What people see from these matches then gets analyzed as A tier material and then Abodongo gets credited for his placement.
That's how I see it anyways
 

Nobie

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Not going to go into vs Villager, but I don't believe Luigi beats Mario anymore. Mario's neutral game is leagues ahead of Luigi's.
Care to elaborate on this? It makes sense what you're saying, but we've seen people argue both sides before.
 

GeneralLedge

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When people say a character is ranked because of a player, i don't think it's exactly like that
More like...
The use of a character can show viability, and the most used characters are usually the best
And more important for this particular placement, Abadongo's use of Wario has shown what Wario can do and how he can win certain MUs
What people see from these matches then gets analyzed as A tier material and then Abodongo gets credited for his placement.
That's how I see it anyways
Dang, I feel bad for Trela now. Dude goes to the length to dominate with Mii Sword and his credit is still 'worst'. (STILL CONFUSED WHY THIS IS)
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Luigi just sits there, spamming Fireballs while N-air-ing any F-airs or B-airs. BOOM! Villy has to approach.

Simply having a combo breaker doesn't shuts Luigi's combos up. Mario has one and Luigi still beat him. All you need to do is to not double chop after D-throw, and instead go for some more interesting things instead (Chop + N-air, Nado, B-air, stuff like that).

And I'm having a hard time believeing Villager can gimp Luigi if he recovers high with Cyclone. Sure, he runs the risk of getting U-smashed in the face, but that is honestly better than getting your head bashed with bowling balls or trees that pops out of nowhere.

Plus, mindgames exist :p.
I'm a Luigi main and I play against decent Villagers semi-often. If the Villager is any good, they'll edgeguard with more than a bowling ball. Nair and Dair kinda wreck Luigi offstage. I feel as if you need to know how to jumpless Cyclone in order to mix up your recovery just enough or get that second/third chance to recover. Without it, your best bet it to hope Villager messes up, doesn't come after you, or your Up B tanks the bowling ball.

I'm not a Luigi expert, but the big question with Luigi in just about any matchup is, how difficult is it for him to get that vital grab? Against Mario who similarly has a fairly short range, it's not that big of an issue because he wants to fight in the same territory. Against a zoner like Mega Man, it becomes a tall order because he shuts down fireballs and has fantastic air speed.

The reason why people are saying that Villager has a good matchup against Luigi is not that Villager can get out of Luigi's combos but that he prevents Luigi from getting them started in the first place.
I have to admit getting grabs against Villager is hard but I get grabs in a few situations:
1) Run up and grab when Villager uses a grounded Lloid too close
2) Shield grab when Dair'ing into my shield or Fair'ing from the ledge into my shield
3) Grabbing the lag of their grab
4) Sometimes catch them after they are hit with a Fireball
 

Emblem Lord

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Okay I'm confused now. Why are people placing characters at high points on the tier list when the determining factor is the player?

In either case, if the factor that puts Wario at an A is only player skill, then there shouldn't be any worry for a nerf to Wario. Makes me seriously question the viability of existing tier lists when the true factor is player talent, though.
So what you are saying is

Samus is equal to Diddy Kong.

Because if you are implying tiers aren't real, then what I said above is fact.

But, we both know it isn't.

The most you can say is what don't know the metagame. Which is true. We don't. No one does.

Because....patch mah dude.
 

Emblem Lord

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I was playing around.

Of course player skill is the determining factor. However, some chars are just plain better. This cannot be argued. Ever. Unless you have a game where everyone is the same. Which essentially just means you have one character.
 

GeneralLedge

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What confuses me isn't characters being better/worse; it's that the tier list is taken as seriously as it is when nobody is taking the risk to explore every character**. Lots of people saying their respective character should be placed higher, or that certain characters should be placed lower, etc.

At the moment, it seems like we don't really have 'tier lists' so much as we have 'popularity contests'.

If Smash 4 is a game where balance is closer than it ever was, I question the viability of tier lists since it's never cut-and-dry as a pyramid of character faces with someone on top and someone on the bottom. We should be pushing forward with MU lists, if anything. At least then we can challenge the whys and hows more directly, customs on OR off, instead of sheer speculation.

I mean let's say Mii Sword were in fact an excellent Diddy counter. Nobody cares, because that isn't the focus. Encouraging people continue not caring is a really dumb idea.


**EDIT: And I mean, from similar perspectives as Wario-is-A-rank-because-really-good-player-pushes-envelope. If someone did the same for Marth, would he still be near the bottom?
 
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Antonykun

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When people say a character is ranked because of a player, i don't think it's exactly like that
More like...
The use of a character can show viability, and the most used characters are usually the best
And more important for this particular placement, Abadongo's use of Wario has shown what Wario can do and how he can win certain MUs
What people see from these matches then gets analyzed as A tier material and then Abodongo gets credited for his placement.
That's how I see it anyways
Abadongo should be Abadango's name if he uses donkey kong
 

Locke 06

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What confuses me isn't characters being better/worse; it's that the tier list is taken as seriously as it is when nobody is taking the risk to explore every character. Lots of people saying their respective character should be placed higher, or that certain characters should be placed lower, etc.

At the moment, it seems like we don't really have 'tier lists' so much as we have 'popularity contests'.

If Smash 4 is a game where balance is closer than it ever was, I question the viability of tier lists since it's never cut-and-dry as a pyramid of character faces with someone on top and someone on the bottom. We should be pushing forward with MU lists, if anything. At least then we can challenge the whys and hows more directly, customs on OR off, instead of sheer speculation.

I mean let's say Mii Sword were in fact an excellent Diddy counter. Nobody cares, because that isn't the focus. Encouraging people continue not caring is a really dumb idea.
This sounds like it stems from "I need a tier list" syndrome. The idea that there is a consensus tier list is stupid. The community has a rough idea of "top tier mainstays," some "high tier candidates" and some "bad" characters. This is mostly based on MU's with the top tier mainstays and results, but it is ALSO based on kit analysis & personal experience. Tournament placings alone are as meaningless as MU numbers alone. How you get your results, and how the MU plays out are more important. If Sheik won a tournament because all of his opponents DQ'd or had unfortunate SD's, nobody should care. If Brawl DDD lost against a DK because he didn't use the chain grab, the MU doesn't suddenly become in DK's favor. I don't know how the Mii Sword tournament was won, but just because "he won a tournament" doesn't mean he's any better (or worse) than Doctor Mario.

On the note of MU lists: As someone who is putting one together for one of the character boards, it is a ridiculous task that is getting f*cked over by patches. Do you know how many matchups there are in this game? If you were to cover one a week for a single character, it would take you about a year. And in that year, the meta for the character you analyzed at the beginning has changed. I doubt many people even know how their main does against the entire cast, let alone how the entire cast does against the entire cast. Tier placement for characters people don't know are based on "general MU perceptions," which is based kit analysis and experience.

If you want to know if a character is good or not, or how a matchup plays out, do your own research. Or, you could... you know... play the game. If you decide to take a shortcut by relying on "MU ratio numbers" or "tier list placements" without looking into the reasons behind them, then realize you don't know the whole story. /end

Edit: wow that was a lot more hostile than I wanted that to be. Not directed completely at you, but at many of the people in this thread who talk about things as if they are absolute truths without doing their homework.
 
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Scarlet Jile

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What confuses me isn't characters being better/worse; it's that the tier list is taken as seriously as it is when nobody is taking the risk to explore every character**. Lots of people saying their respective character should be placed higher, or that certain characters should be placed lower, etc.

At the moment, it seems like we don't really have 'tier lists' so much as we have 'popularity contests'.

If Smash 4 is a game where balance is closer than it ever was, I question the viability of tier lists since it's never cut-and-dry as a pyramid of character faces with someone on top and someone on the bottom. We should be pushing forward with MU lists, if anything. At least then we can challenge the whys and hows more directly, customs on OR off, instead of sheer speculation.

I mean let's say Mii Sword were in fact an excellent Diddy counter. Nobody cares, because that isn't the focus. Encouraging people continue not caring is a really dumb idea.


**EDIT: And I mean, from similar perspectives as Wario-is-A-rank-because-really-good-player-pushes-envelope. If someone did the same for Marth, would he still be near the bottom?
Popularity contests aren't arbitrary, though. Nobody really gives a **** about Diddy as a character; they see his obvious strengths and low-risk, high-reward gameplay, they see the first-place results pouring in, and they decide to make the safest bet when they pick their competitive main.

It's not like @ChileZeRo and @Mew2King looked on the internet one day, saw that people liked Diddy, and went "Okay, I guess I'll play this character forever now." People knew Metaknight was good as soon as Brawl came out, and people knew Diddy and Sheik were good as soon as Smash 4 came out. All it takes it trying them out and realizing how much easier it is to win.
 

GeneralLedge

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On the note of MU lists: As someone who is putting one together for one of the character boards, it is a ridiculous task that is getting f*cked over by patches. Do you know how many matchups there are in this game? If you were to cover one a week for a single character, it would take you about a year. And in that year, the meta for the character you analyzed at the beginning has changed. I doubt many people even know how their main does against the entire cast, let alone how the entire cast does against the entire cast. Tier placement for characters people don't know are based on "general MU perceptions," which is based kit analysis and experience.
In spite of how long and difficult it would be to correctly analyze, this still seems like a more correct direction to go than straight tier lists, if only because taking a year to do it, and constantly re-examining it, would make it more structurally sound than a community poll about "who's the best in the game" once a month.

Even specifically, "I doubt many people even know how their main does against the entire cast" Stands out to me as... something I can't really grasp at how that should be handled, or if it should be handled. It definitely needs to be explored more, and there stems why it "confuses" me.

Even if we consider Diddy the best character in the game, there are still characters that can go 50:50. If a character can go 50:50 despite not being close to Diddy tier-wise, does that boost character tier semantically? Or is it ignorant of it? If every character could go 50:50 against Diddy, would/could Diddy still be the best in the game? Why? How? Subsequently, if Mii Sword could go 50:50 against every character in the game as well, would he still be considered the worst in the game?

MAYBE I'm over-thinking this, though.
 

HeroMystic

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Care to elaborate on this? It makes sense what you're saying, but we've seen people argue both sides before.
Mario pretty much has everything he needs to play reactively to whatever Luigi does. Luigi can't wait out Mario because the combination of Fireball + Cape neuters Luigi's zoning, and Mario's B-air and Up-B stuffs any aerial attacks Luigi does. If Luigi messes up, Mario can get in a quick (true) combo and reset to neutral. Mario also has greater mobility, so he is capable of punishing Luigi's mis-spaced options by weaving in and out of his range.

Luigi does have cyclone which will punish Mario's fireballs so he does have to be mindful of it, and when Luigi gets in with a grab, it becomes a minigame of reading DI and Luigi getting in as much damage as possible, but if he fails at this then Mario is capable of holding a firm lead. If Luigi is incapable of getting grabs, his weaknesses as a character start to really show.
 
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Nu~

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Mario pretty much has everything he needs to play reactively to whatever Luigi does. Luigi can't wait out Mario because the combination of Fireball + Cape neuters Luigi's zoning, and Mario's B-air and Up-B stuffs any aerial attacks Luigi does. If Luigi messes up, Mario can get in a quick (true) combo and reset to neutral. Mario also has greater mobility, so he is capable of punishing Luigi's mis-spaced options by weaving in and out of his range.

Luigi does have cyclone which will punish Mario's fireballs so he does have to be mindful of it, and when Luigi gets in with a grab, it becomes a minigame of reading DI and Luigi getting in as much damage as possible, but if he fails at this then Mario is capable of holding a firm lead. If Luigi is incapable of getting grabs, his weaknesses as a character start to really show.
Why is the general concensus on Luigi "high tier/top tier" if he's reliant on grab combos?
I know that his frame data is crazy and his damage per hit is just as insane, but I feel that he suffers Ness syndrome in that he's very linear and will start to fall behind as the meta evolves.
His weaknesses are very exploitable in a game where having good mobility matters and like you said, Luigi's weaknesses are revealed once you cut off his grab game: (his game plan)
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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Match-up charts are simply impossible to make work right. There are 2601 match-ups in this game, a good number of which have probably literally never been played out in tournament (find me a Mii Swordfighter vs Mr. Game & Watch tournament match) and most of which have been played sufficiently rarely that we really don't know much.

Even if we somehow were able to play each a lot, we'd run into ruleset asynchronization. Stage rules vary region to region (or even locality to locality), and this can make a big difference since I'll tell you from my experience of a MU I know well that Sonic vs Rosalina is completely different if we're playing on Final Destination, Smashville, or Battlefield just to stick to stages everyone is familiar with and the nuances continue to mulitply as we see how it plays out on a stage like Wuhu Island or Kongo Jungle 64 which are legal stages in my region but not others. Custom rules also vary; the game is just too different if customs are not legal in an area to use the data they may gather (you can't just "add in" customs to your thinking at the end; they're too fundamental). Speaking of customs, remember that players are going to need substantial time to figure out which particular custom load-out is optimal in each match-up which may not always be obvious (like I still debate with myself over whether 2311 or 2211 is best for Rosalina against Sonic, and I've played that MU over 100 times against Sonics good enough to make me care).

If we somehow solve that, we also have the fact that there is no real scale. In theory a match-up ratio is a probabilistic statement. If two high level equally skilled players play 100 games, the ratio shows us how many each will win. In reality this is a myth. Two equally skilled players don't exist. High level players for every character don't exist. 100 games will never be played to measure. Even if they were, player skill is non-static and if your players don't suck they'll be learning as they go over 100 games and the early games won't be representative of the metagame after 100. The numbers people give are in reality pulled out of their rear ends. We say 60-40 for "kinda bad but winnable" and 70-30 for "really bad". We say 90-10 for "essentially impossible" even though in reality a 90-10 match-up probably cannot exist (any match-up bad enough for a 90% win rate is probably bad enough for a 100% win rate). These numbers are entirely subjective, and what precisely one set of numbers means will vary person to person. If I talk about a 65-35 match-up, just how bad is it? I bet I can get at least five meaningfully different answers. Of course, within anyone's region, you'll see other biases; if your local Diddy player is your most skilled player and your second best player is a Sheik main who just can never beat your best player, you might believe Diddy beats Sheik badly when the real reason this loss keeps happening is that the Diddy main is the better player. Even if Diddy does beat Sheik, your view on the margin of victory will inevitably be distorted by the skill gap that has the Diddy main seemingly effortless two stock this Sheik who beats everyone else. Put it all together, and the numbers people give for match-ups are consistently completely meaningless.

Even if somehow you could solve the asynchronous rulesets and the fact that we have no meaningful scale, we'd STILL have to trust the subjective judgment of hundreds of people about game balance. Let's be real here; do you really think we can appropriately vet that many people for being competent at analyzing game design (which is what balance discussion is)? Even being a good player isn't necessarily good enough; often good players understand the game very well intuitively but remarkably poorly when it comes to anything they have to explain (and on the other side, some of the people who can accurately explain how the game works the best are not notably good players). With a small crowd you can carefully vet people. With the hundreds you need for a MU chart? It's impossible; totally incompetent people will be averaged in and it will corrupt your final results to a very real extent. Even beyond the total incompetents, you have to fact that competence is a scale and without a doubt some characters will be considered by smarter people than others, resulting in an uneven distribution of understanding of the game throughout the chart.

Some of these problems still exist when you just make a tier list directly, but the effects can be understood and they're on a small enough scale you can minimize them. A match-up chart is just such a large project that the errors introduced by all of the above factors become unavoidable to such a large extent that the degree to which the errors corrupt your results significantly outpace the degree to which considering match-ups improves your accuracy. A match-up chart based tier list kinda works for games that has been out for 5 or more years with no variables other than character selection and a smallish cast (20 or fewer characters). For modern fighters especially including this one, it's just so thoroughly impossible. It is nothing but wise that we don't try; it would just be us working really hard to produce a non-useful result.
 

Ffamran

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Mario pretty much has everything he needs to play reactively to whatever Luigi does. Luigi can't wait out Mario because the combination of Fireball + Cape neuters Luigi's zoning, and Mario's B-air and Up-B stuffs any aerial attacks Luigi does. If Luigi messes up, Mario can get in a quick (true) combo and reset to neutral. Mario also has greater mobility, so he is capable of punishing Luigi's mis-spaced options by weaving in and out of his range.

Luigi does have cyclone which will punish Mario's fireballs so he does have to be mindful of it, and when Luigi gets in with a grab, it becomes a minigame of reading DI and Luigi getting in as much damage as possible, but if he fails at this then Mario is capable of holding a firm lead. If Luigi is incapable of getting grabs, his weaknesses as a character start to really show.
I'm wondering how the Dr. Mario vs. Luigi MU would work now. Er... @TTTTTsd?
 

Locke 06

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Thanks for saving me a writeup, AA.

What people, everyone, can do, is analyze matchups and discuss. Which is more the aim of character board MU discussion (from what I've seen). You take away the scale issue, asynchronous ruleset issue, and subjective judgment by simply... Taking away the number and leaving the discussion as just a discussion based on the game.

Then people can make up their own minds on the MU with their own scale, ruleset, and subjective judgment based on that discussion.
 

ParanoidDrone

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This is also why I dislike breaking tier lists into S, A, B, C, etc. (or heaven forbid, S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, etc.) since the designations are completely arbitrary and have no real meaning. Broad strokes, i.e. "viable" vs "not viable" is all I really look for.
 

HeroMystic

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Why is the general concensus on Luigi "high tier/top tier" if he's reliant on grab combos?
I know that his frame data is crazy and his damage per hit is just as insane, but I feel that he suffers Ness syndrome in that he's very linear and will start to fall behind as the meta evolves.
His weaknesses are very exploitable in a game where having good mobility matters and like you said, Luigi's weaknesses are revealed once you cut off his grab game: (his game plan)
Luigi's gameplan, while linear, is solid. The problem is the majority of Luigi players are too focused on getting grabs and not enough on just getting hits.

Luigi's aerials are so fast and deal so much damage that he's capable of getting +20% out of a two-hit aerial combo alone. Grabs should be treated as something akin to a hard punish. This should only happen if your opponent royally screws up and allows you to get that grab.

Luigi's main focus should be more on getting their opponents in a bad position through fireball zoning and pivots, rather than getting that grab in.
 
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deepseadiva

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This is also why I dislike breaking tier lists into S, A, B, C, etc. (or heaven forbid, S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, etc.) since the designations are completely arbitrary and have no real meaning. Broad strokes, i.e. "viable" vs "not viable" is all I really look for.
I like Shaya's tier lists were she's like "these characters kinda suck because of this", "these character have all the tools", etc.
 

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This is also why I dislike breaking tier lists into S, A, B, C, etc. (or heaven forbid, S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, etc.) since the designations are completely arbitrary and have no real meaning. Broad strokes, i.e. "viable" vs "not viable" is all I really look for.
Classically, those designations actually do have meaning. S is typically "few to no bad MUs + invalidates large portions of the cast," A means "good MUs including (& especially) against the S-tier, solo viable," etc. with viability and overall MU value decreasing further the lower the letters go. +/- indicate small but noticeable gaps within a letter grade that don't quite warrant a lower or higher letter.
 

Project Quarantine

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This is also why I dislike breaking tier lists into S, A, B, C, etc. (or heaven forbid, S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, etc.) since the designations are completely arbitrary and have no real meaning. Broad strokes, i.e. "viable" vs "not viable" is all I really look for.
I prefer the opposite.

Grab your reading glasses because were about to open the dictionary (Google)

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: viable

1. capable of working successfully; feasible.

"the proposed investment was economically viable"

~~

Personally, I don't like how the smash community throws around this word, because in reality, every character is viable. If a character was "not viable," they would have 0:100 matchups against everyone. They would be incapable of winning. Even if someone who has never played a video game is given a controller, selected as Mii Swordfighter (not saying Mii is the worst), and put up against Zero's Diddy, there is still a chance for something miracuous to happen to Zero. This would result in the win for the inexperienced player "technically." I'm using the dictionary as my source.

I can understand the use of "less viable" and "more viable," because it shows which characters are better at winning, or worse.

Because the gray area with these words "less" and "more" as proposed is not set in stone anywhere, I prefer using letters such as S, A, B etc. "High tier, top tier, mid tier," is also ok.

Edit: Ok ignore this post nobody wants to use the actual definition. Nobody likes vocal minorities either :p
 
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Smooth Criminal

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I prefer the opposite.

Grab your reading glasses because were about to open the dictionary (Google)

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: viable

1. capable of working successfully; feasible.

"the proposed investment was economically viable"

~~

Personally, I don't like how the smash community throws around this word, because in reality, every character is viable. If a character was "not viable," they would have 0:100 matchups against everyone. They would be incapable of winning. I'm using the dictionary as my source.

I can understand the use of "less viable" and "more viable," because it shows which characters are better at winning, or worse.

Because the gray area with these words "less" and "more" as proposed is not set in stone anywhere, I prefer using letters such as S, A, B etc. "High tier, top tier, mid tier," is also ok.

English is dismissed.
Was this really necessary?

Smooth Criminal
 
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I prefer the opposite.

Grab your reading glasses because were about to open the dictionary (Google)

vi·a·ble
ˈvīəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: viable

1. capable of working successfully; feasible.

"the proposed investment was economically viable"

~~

Personally, I don't like how the smash community throws around this word, because in reality, every character is viable. If a character was "not viable," they would have 0:100 matchups against everyone. They would be incapable of winning. Even if someone who has never played a video game is given a controller, selected as Mii Swordfighter (not saying Mii is the worst), and put up against Zero's Diddy, there is still a chance for something miracuous to happen to Zero. This would result in the win for the inexperienced player "technically." I'm using the dictionary as my source.

I can understand the use of "less viable" and "more viable," because it shows which characters are better at winning, or worse.

Because the gray area with these words "less" and "more" as proposed is not set in stone anywhere, I prefer using letters such as S, A, B etc. "High tier, top tier, mid tier," is also ok.

English is dismissed.
Except that this isn't what anyone here means by viable and you know it.
 

Project Quarantine

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Except that this isn't what anyone here means by viable and you know it.
Apparently I can't voice my opinions about real definitions. I now understand that people don't mean it that way, but that's what it is. Btw I didn't know it, I thought it was just what people heard and got passed on. Don't assume things
 

Smooth Criminal

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Apparently I can't voice my opinions about real definitions. I now understand that people don't mean it that way, but that's what it is. Btw I didn't know it, I thought it was just what people heard and got passed on. Don't assume things
Then don't condescend if you don't know.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Shaya

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Semantic arguments...
How good are they?
I would rate them 0/10.
The vernacular of any "culture" or grouping will not necessarily redefine word usages, but take what is most applicable for the sake of communication

When we say viable, we mean capable of doing well at a tournament consistently.
In fact, even in your own example, economically viable is a nice way of saying PROFITABLE, do you think something that's 1% profitable is worthwhile an investment? No.

Also tier lists aren't meant to show what the game is, it's meant to show what the "metagame" is, it's currently perceivable form. There's a lot of subjectivity involved, but a "picture" paints a thousand words, and what we're spending tens of thousands of posts talking about is the current metagame, where a tier list is a compiled form of it. The average person either taking something like that as "definitive" or others going "waaah mah potential" are doing everyone a disservice and wastes time.
People need to realise we only care about now and in the "widely agreed upon" foreseeable future, tournaments are one of the only means of showing something that people can actually gauge the future with.
Logic Class is dismissed.
 
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Gunla

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We can.
I'm wondering how the Dr. Mario vs. Luigi MU would work now. Er... @TTTTTsd?
I'll chime in on this.

Coming from my experience, Doc's slower mobility makes it harder for him to get around Luigi's tools or punish him easier. But he has the Tornado, which is something that definitely factors in, and has stronger %s to back up said punishes. Mario's speed and better combo game, in the end, give him an easier time against Luigi than Doc.
 

ParanoidDrone

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This is stupid. Can we move on?
Lets.

I want to talk about Samus a bit. (Or see others talk about her, I suppose.) I get that she's pretty solidly in the lower end of the cast, but what exactly is it about her that's holding her back? Is it bad numbers on her moves (damage, frame data, etc.) or is she just not cohesive or what?
 
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kj22

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The sense I'm getting in this thread is that there's not much point in tier lists, since there are too many variables (ruleset/player/opinion/customs/adaptation etc).

Are the people arguing this just for smash 4, or do they also think the tier lists for melee/brawl/64 are wrong too?
 

Shaya

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Cohesion.
For a floaty ****** such as herself, she probably needs more moves that don't have miniscule hitbox widths (or heights) for her to chain moves together better (:4luigi:)
She has alright frame data, good range, a lot of specs of hers are good in the literal sense. Her specials are a lot of 'I wishes' rather than solid tools. Height, terrible fast fall speed and otherwise poor defenses accentuate her as a very abusable character. If she could charge her B while she was spending half the time floating back down into the match after being hit, she'd suddenly have a benefit applied to her wonky aerial specs.

To maintain her feel whilst also making her workable (and assuming animations cannot change), is a big ask. They could overtune her projectile specials and voila, a nuisance, but I'm not sure if that would work out in the long run. Like Ike with the latest patch they turned dtilt into a vertical move rather than a horizontal one, small changes like these in the right spots could be the type of thing you'd see potentially amazing improvements from (I'm thinking her nair primarily).

The sense I'm getting in this thread is that there's not much point in tier lists, since there are too many variables (ruleset/player/opinion/customs/adaptation etc).

Are the people arguing this just for smash 4, or do they also think the tier lists for melee/brawl/64 are wrong too?
It's basically just a typing exercise. People fear trying to objectify their opinions and this forms a cynicism of everything involved with it. That's why I say, stop thinking "definitive" and think "what's happening now and what we know is right for the time"
 
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