Character Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

The sheer convenience of vanilla tournaments will ensure that customs do not become the only format.

 

[TriTails]

• I'm curious why he thinks Luigi gets better with customs. At least the latter gets very, very little from customs.

Same here.

Bouncing Fireball: Basically Mario's Fireballs, but bounce a bit higher arc because height differences. Doesn't really suit Luigi with his bad mobility.

Iceball: I have yet to see the true potential of this move. I heard it can enable some crazy combos... or so they say.

Fiery Jump Punch: As bad as ****.

Burial Header: Anti-juggling, but you lose your F8 punish KO tool. And still loses to Rosalina's U-air, don't try this at home.

Floating Missile: Straight upgrade from the original. Buffs recovery, offensive, accuracy, charge time, yeah, it's good.

Quick Missile: Buffs your recovery so hard that they had to add incredible ending lag to it.

Mach Cyclone: Buffs recovery, but is seriously lacking offensively.

Choles- Choleste- Cholesthewhatever Cyclone: Hits hard, but gimps your diagonal recovery.

The only things that is worth looking is probably only Iceball, Straight Missile, and Burial Header. Cyclone customs buff one thing but nerf everything else.

 

[Smog Frog]

Same here.

Bouncing Fireball: Basically Mario's Fireballs, but bounce a bit higher arc because height differences. Doesn't really suit Luigi with his bad mobility.

Iceball: I have yet to see the true potential of this move. I heard it can enable some crazy combos... or so they say.

Fiery Jump Punch: As bad as ****.

Burial Header: Anti-juggling, but you lose your F8 punish KO tool. And still loses to Rosalina's U-air, don't try this at home.

Floating Missile: Straight upgrade from the original. Buffs recovery, offensive, accuracy, charge time, yeah, it's good.

Quick Missile: Buffs your recovery so hard that they had to add incredible ending lag to it.

Mach Cyclone: Buffs recovery, but is seriously lacking offensively.

Choles- Choleste- Cholesthewhatever Cyclone: Hits hard, but gimps your diagonal recovery.

The only things that is worth looking is probably only Iceball, Straight Missile, and Burial Header. Cyclone customs buff one thing but nerf everything else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOIEqweIycg here boss uses it's slow movement to force a shield and therefore a grab

 

[LiteralGrill]

Some regions also don't look they'll be picking up customs really ever and are completely disinterested in customs, so we'll probably see customs off tournaments forever on that end too. It's going to always be worth talking about both kinds of metas.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Is this the thought process of people that're Pro custom?
I honestly thought these two were the same person since they're liking each others posts too.

No but it should be. The vocal anti-customs minority should be thoroughly silenced and customs should be universally used, and they would be if people weren't too scared the game might die. If some regions refuse to follow suit let them be scrubs, then they can fail at nationals.

It's not worth talking about two different metas. In the same way that it's not worth teaching creationism in science classes. When one thing is made of utter fail just ignore it til it dies. Who cares about what goes on in an arbitrarily crippled meta? The only reason to care is because idiots care. Every **** given about non-custom meta is a **** which serves the purposes of idiots.

 

[meleebrawler]

Same here.

Bouncing Fireball: Basically Mario's Fireballs, but bounce a bit higher arc because height differences. Doesn't really suit Luigi with his bad mobility.

Iceball: I have yet to see the true potential of this move. I heard it can enable some crazy combos... or so they say.

Fiery Jump Punch: As bad as ****.

Burial Header: Anti-juggling, but you lose your F8 punish KO tool. And still loses to Rosalina's U-air, don't try this at home.

Floating Missile: Straight upgrade from the original. Buffs recovery, offensive, accuracy, charge time, yeah, it's good.

Quick Missile: Buffs your recovery so hard that they had to add incredible ending lag to it.

Mach Cyclone: Buffs recovery, but is seriously lacking offensively.

Choles- Choleste- Cholesthewhatever Cyclone: Hits hard, but gimps your diagonal recovery.

The only things that is worth looking is probably only Iceball, Straight Missile, and Burial Header. Cyclone customs buff one thing but nerf everything else.

Pretty sure Floating Missile is weaker damage-wise than the others. You may argue that it does more damage
on average due to the quick charge time outside misfires. (Which default does the best).

 

[HeroMystic]

Not going to get into this completely redundant Pro/Anti Customs stuff (seriously why do we do this), but the patch will really decide if Customs should continue being a thing.

If the developers decide to balance around the default metagame, balance may prove to be stronger within that metagame instead of with customs.

Until then we really shouldn't be deciding which is better.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Some regions also don't look they'll be picking up customs really ever and are completely disinterested in customs, so we'll probably see customs off tournaments forever on that end too. It's going to always be worth talking about both kinds of metas.

Great, so they can play with customs off and just fail at any major national tournament.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If some regions refuse to follow suit let them be scrubs, then they can fail at nationals.

Great, so they can play with customs off and just fail at any major national tournament.

Urk you two have to be the same somehow.

I'm fine with customs, just do not enjoy 2 stocks 6 mins with them as well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Urk you two have to be the same somehow.

I'm fine with customs, just do not enjoy 2 stocks 6 mins with them as well.

Here's how you tell the difference: tag us both in the stage discussion thread and ask us about stages.

 

[Anomilus]

Just a random thought I had this moment...

...What if this upcoming balance patch makes certain customs that were decided for EVO worse? That would be fun to deal with, bunches of sets suddenly becoming less-than-optimal and now certain characters are gimped on options...

But just a silly thought.

 

[Firefoxx]

Dabuz's customs tier list actually matches up with the r/smashbros April tier list in an interesting way. Both lists rate customs Villager as a top 10 character, although Dabuz has a poorer opinion of Villager in the vanilla meta. Tier lists don't matter blah blah, but this overall sentiment seems significant and could result in a larger than normal number of Villagers at EVO.

Also I kind of agree with his assessment of Jigglypuff. In a game with relatively weak DI/SDI where your enemies can confirm into their KO options fairly easily, life seems really scary for the lightest character in the game. Add in the fact that Jiggs' recovery doesn't really seem all that remarkable relative to the rest of the cast and you have a meta that Jiggs' doesn't seem to fit into. Rest is still bat**** crazy strong (as is bair) but I don't know if those moves can compensate for all of Jiggs' weaknesses

 

[ChronoPenguin]

View attachment 46926 Vegeta, what does the scouter say about Duck Hunt's power level?

That he has one of the most reactable recoveries in this game. I thought this game was made in China because that dog is food.

No hit box, slow ascent, meh distance. Better be able to tech.

 

[Trieste SP]

Just a random thought I had this moment...

...What if this upcoming balance patch makes certain customs that were decided for EVO worse? That would be fun to deal with, bunches of sets suddenly becoming less-than-optimal and now certain characters are gimped on options...

But just a silly thought.

If this is the case. I'm going back to playing with customs off.

 

[HeroMystic]

Just a random thought I had this moment...

...What if this upcoming balance patch makes certain customs that were decided for EVO worse? That would be fun to deal with, bunches of sets suddenly becoming less-than-optimal and now certain characters are gimped on options...

But just a silly thought.

This goes back to what @ Ulevo was saying about the default metagame being more convenient. At first, when we figure that Nintendo left us high and dry, all we had to do was add on customs and assume nothing would change outside of metagame development. Now that Nintendo can potentially change whatever they want, the whole thing becomes so much messier.

It wouldn't be a problem if we weren't using AA's Custom Moveset Project and simply left it as a "Bring Your Customs" rule, but unfortunately places like EVO won't allow this and everyone has a "follow the leader" mentality.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Great, so they can play with customs off and just fail at any major national tournament.

Or the regions/nations that have customs off would, you know, run customs off nationals.

 

[Antonykun]

you know as much salt i had/still have for ADHD's Villager people do now respect

her soooooo..... :/

This goes back to what @ Ulevo was saying about the default metagame being more convenient. At first, when we figure that Nintendo left us high and dry, all we had to do was add on customs and assume nothing would change outside of metagame development. Now that Nintendo can potentially change whatever they want, the whole thing becomes so much messier.

It wouldn't be a problem if we weren't using AA's Custom Moveset Project and simply left it as a "Bring Your Customs" rule, but unfortunately places like EVO won't allow this and everyone has a "follow the leader" mentality.

Alas not everyone has a 3ds

 

[HeroMystic]

Alas not everyone has a 3ds

Which is a common rebuttal that is not nearly as much of a problem that people make it out to be.

In my local scene, our customs weekly have a BYOC rule. Some preemptively unlocked all customs on their 3DS, and the people who want to make customs are enabled to do so by sharing that 3DS. Furthermore, we have some Wii Us with all if not the majority of customs unlocked.

 

[NAKAT]

I don't think Fox is 3rd best character or even a top tier.

Our versions of "top tier" are likely different. I think he is 7th with results to back it among looking at many of his matchups.

Just my opinion

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Or the regions/nations that have customs off would, you know, run customs off nationals.

Oh right, APEX is still NJ.

Dammit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Our versions of "top tier" are likely different. I think he is 7th with results to back it among looking at many of his matchups.

Just my opinion

Agreed. 7th seems accurate. 3rd means he is better then ZSS and Sonic. Toolkit wise I just don't see it.

 

[Teshie U]

Not going to get into this completely redundant Pro/Anti Customs stuff (seriously why do we do this), but the patch will really decide if Customs should continue being a thing.

If the developers decide to balance around the default metagame, balance may prove to be stronger within that metagame instead of with customs.

Until then we really shouldn't be deciding which is better.

Wasn't there a terrible thread about that idea yesterday or something?

Anyway, if the default stuff gets so nerfed that customs become overpowered I don't think this game will be worth playing at all anyway.

Plus anyone telling you that they KNOW the customs meta is more balanced (when we dont even know how balanced default is) is delusional about customs. Palutena is going to basically become DDD and become nearly impossible for half the cast to deal with at all.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wasn't there a terrible thread about that idea yesterday or something?

I believe that thread was focused more on "If Nintendo doesn't touch customs then it obviously means it wasn't meant for competitive play" or something like that. I only read the OP then immediately went to something else.

Honestly, I thought the idea around adding customs in the first place was strengthening the balance of the cast. It seems somewhere down the line this idea was changed.

 

[Blobface]

Palutena is going to basically become DDD and become nearly impossible for half the cast to deal with at all.

While I support customs, I do agree we shouldn't be so quick to say " not supporting customs is stupid!". However, this is a lousy example of how customs could be unbalanced. How in the world does customs Palutena compare to Brawl DDD who could instantly kill half the cast with a single grab?

 

[Jams.]

I'm only going to comment on customs, because at this point I just like to pretend that the no-customs metagame is a bad dream and that eventually we're all going to wake up.

• Fox gets more from customs than I think Dabuz gives him credit for. Not much more, he's pretty damn close, but a little bit more.
  
• I'm curious why he thinks Luigi gets better with customs. At least the latter gets very, very little from customs.
  
• I'd put Pika right next to Rosalina - Heavy Skull Bash is still one of the dumbest hard reads in the game to land.
  
• Brawler is definitely not in the right category. Seriously, that char is stupid good.
  
• I feel like he's really sleeping on Doc, Link, and Falco. Falco really isn't that bad, and Link is a huge pain in the ***.

That said, this is probably the best tier list I've ever seen, and all of those complaints are pretty marginal.


Aw c'mon, this got a warning? This was hilarious.

I feel like Dabuz's opinion of customs Mii Brawler only considers default sized Mii Brawler, as that's the only Brawler current top players use to my knowledge. Honestly, I think tiny Brawler is much more absurd and I'm surprised no good players have picked him up. It will happen if tiny Brawler is allowed at EVO though; rules about Miis at that tournament are still kind of ambiguous.

Edit:

How in the world does customs Palutena compare to Brawl DDD who could instantly kill half the cast with a single grab?

This is gross exaggeration and I hope you know that.
He infinites like 6 or 7 characters. Not saying Brawl DDD doesn't gatekeep a lot of lower tiers, but your statement is really pushing it.

 

[HeroMystic]

While I support customs, I do agree we shouldn't be so quick to say " not supporting customs is stupid!". However, this is a lousy example of how customs could be unbalanced. How in the world does customs Palutena compare to Brawl DDD who could instantly kill half the cast with a single grab?

D3 could only standing infinite four characters (Mario, Luigi, DK, Samus). And he could only ledge infinite five characters (Luigi, Wolf, DK, Bowser, and himself). The scary part about D3 wasn't his infinite, but his chaingrab and the follow-ups he got from it, B-air spacing, high damage output, above average recovery, and being one of the heaviest characters in the game.

His grab actually wasn't an auto-win button. The only character I would say was royally screwed was DK because he had no real way to space him out and he had a massive hurtbox.

D3 also had a waaaaaaaaay better projectile that literally shot it's own projectiles, giving him a much stronger camp game.

 

[Teshie U]

I believe that thread was focused more on "If Nintendo doesn't touch customs then it obviously means it wasn't meant for competitive play" or something like that. I only read the OP then immediately went to something else.

Honestly, I thought the idea around adding customs in the first place was strengthening the balance of the cast. It seems somewhere down the line this idea was changed.

People want customs on and off for different reasons. I never held the idea that special moves alone would solve everything wrong with any smash game, especially one where the metagame is mostly comboing Z into A.

While I support customs, I do agree we shouldn't be so quick to say " not supporting customs is stupid!". However, this is a lousy example of how customs could be unbalanced. How in the world does customs Palutena compare to Brawl DDD who could instantly kill half the cast with a single grab?

I'm not talking about DDDs playstyle. I'm talking about how he was basically the "metaknight" of mid tier (I'd say Sonic was the MK of low tier in brawl too). DDD pretty much countered every character below him on the tier list while losing to (IIRC) everyone above him.

Brawl DDD at least was centralized around low risk high rewards COMBAT, but I believe Palutena as she is now with customs will be nearly impossible for half the cast to catch. A Palutena committed to running away can use her superlative speed to avoid most of the cast.

People are complaining about Villager fortifying a dangerous position and saying "come at me", but Palutena will turn a match into Mario Kart and just safely kite people around.

 

[Blobface]

When you're talking about one character invalidating another, it's much better to assume innocence until proven guilty. Not to deny the possibility, but I have yet to see any match where Palutena moves so fast that the other character can't get at her. Remember, every character gets access to customs. Custom Palutena may beat vanilla Bowser, but custom Bowser gets Dash Slash.

To be honest, this is character competitive impressions, not custom competitive impressions. Customs on/off should be left for other threads. Edit: Actually, is there a customs competitive discussion thread? If there isn't, that would explain why it always ends up here.


Speaking of customs though, why in the name of Din are Ganon's not using Dark Fists at custom tourneys? Like, Phenom yesterday was using Dark Vault, which is utterly worthless. Dark Fists says "no" to pretty much everything Ganon hates, and it kills below 40%!

With that said, I eagerly await the day when Ganon finally uses Dark Fists properly on stream. Then people will see the true power of the Dark Lord.

Bonus edit: I just watched a clip of a Lucario using slow aura sphere. It seems that the Windbox can marginally increase knockback if you throw the opponent towards it. A DK almost died to a plain old boring F-throw at 94%.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Not going to get into this completely redundant Pro/Anti Customs stuff (seriously why do we do this), but the patch will really decide if Customs should continue being a thing.

If the developers decide to balance around the default metagame, balance may prove to be stronger within that metagame instead of with customs.

Until then we really shouldn't be deciding which is better.

Lol no. And I hope people aren't seriously considering this an argument. Since when is developer balancing reliable? The metagame will still be young, and any effects of a patch will take time to judge. The custom metagame too is very young, yet when it comes to that its okay to yell OP about stuff which is not. What's going to happen is they likely wont patch customs, this will then be used as an argument for not using customs by the anti-custom side. Since apparently Nintendo decides what is competitive and what is not if you are against customs, nevermind that Nintendo made for glory, nevermind that Nintendo have practically 0 experience with as well understanding of competitive games. Nintendo don't balance customs therefore customs are unbalanced. Nevermind that we don't actually know that, cause if we just don't use customs we won't ever have to find out how wrong we are! Yay!

Nintendo this or Nintendo that... ugh it's just an abstract authority for naysayers to hide behind, used to cover of their lack of arguments. The whole ordeal with customs has made it so bloody apparent that so many people don't know even the basic principles of how competitive gaming should be shaped, and frankly don't seem to care so long as they get an outlet for their subjective biases.

Regardless of what what gets patched or what doesn't there is no way in hell anyone is going to be able to tell if the non-custom meta is more balanced. Looking at it from a purely logical perspective it is very likely going to be the custom metagame that is the more balanced still, seeing as it affords adjustment of weaker characters to make up for flaws, the way customs work they are inherently balancing, not necessarily in every instance but overall. Such is obviously the case now, tons of weaker characters have been made viable by customs, no custom has yet to be proven banworthy bar that one inch punch which frankly shouldnt be banned anyway since its still far worse than other moves in the history of smash which were never banned (Ice climbers grab).

And seriously, you saw Nintendos last patch, you gotta have pretty high expectations of them to think that there's much of a chance that they'll be able to make a patch good enough to make the rooster more balanced without customs.

One shouldn't be afraid to tell naysayers the truth. Why divide the scene by letting a vocal minority get away with arbitrarily removing part of the game for no good reason?

Last I checked having no arguments and consistently pretending like you do by speculating and spreading falsehood (this or that is OP, customs cant be implemented, etc etc) qualifies as moronic.

Hey guys Bowser Junior in the vanilla could be OP, better preemptively ban him! He could be OP after all. Maybe there's some glitch with him like in the case of the one in punch. Hey, there could be glitches in ALL characters, ban everything. Don't play the game at all.

Wasn't there a terrible thread about that idea yesterday or something?

Anyway, if the default stuff gets so nerfed that customs become overpowered I don't think this game will be worth playing at all anyway.

Plus anyone telling you that they KNOW the customs meta is more balanced (when we dont even know how balanced default is) is delusional about customs. Palutena is going to basically become DDD and become nearly impossible for half the cast to deal with at all.

Yeah, anyone telling you that they KNOW the customs meta is more balanced is delusional, even though the very nature of customs makes them balancing, since they -in effect- allow players to patch their own characters in a sense, even though thus far its quite obvious that there's a larger viable cast in the custom meta. Despite that you are apparently delusional if you think that what is likely the case is likely the case. Why? Because the subject is customs of course.

On the other hand its apparently quite fine to think that Palutena is somehow going to become DDD and be nearly impossible for half the cast to deal with at all despite their being no proof for that. Despite the fact that what we have seen from Aerolink makes it quite obvious that, Palutena while seemingly a high tier character with customs on, is in fact nowhere near OP. Or do you have some secret Palutena tech no else knows about?

In case you guys aren't noticing this is why you are being waaaaaay too lax about customs discussions, the bar for what counts as an argument is simply so much lower if you are against than if you are for. You can't speculate for at all, even with clear indications supporting your case, if you do that you are delusional, you can however speculate against, even with clear indications that you are wrong. The rules of the discourse are f-cked up.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, that was dumb.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's Ripping Boomerang may seem bad at first, but it gives quite a lot of shield pressure added onto his attacks, and since it's a multi-hitting attack, it can lead up into insane combos and even more hits on attacks than what can be imagined. Sure, its slow, low range and poor damage output may be a turn off, but I see the potential it has alongside its other Boomerang variations.

That being said, due to the nerf that the Power Bow had and the buff the Quickfire Bow had, I say Quickfire Bow is the go-to Bow custom other than vanilla Hero's Bow. It deals 7-8 damage fully charged and has shorter range, yes, but it fires so fast, hits opponents far still, and it can also set up among the best gimping if used right.

It takes some people time to adapt to customs, and I say these two are being underrated when they can actually be game changers.

 

[zeldasmash]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCK6cVKW8AEyTXo.png:large

^ Dabuz made a tier list. Thoughts?

I think Bowser Jr. and peach are too low, but otherwise it's really good imo

*looks at tier list*

Ike lower in customs than in default
Samus as second worst with customs
Toon Link too high in both
Lucario way too low in both
Luigi too high in customs and above Pikachu in both
Mii Swordfighter is a bit too low
Wii Fit Trainer way too high in customs (though she is good)

Yeah no.......i don't disagree with it completely, but there are some very questionable placings here.

 

[Teshie U]

When you're talking about one character invalidating another, it's much better to assume innocence until proven guilty. Not to deny the possibility, but I have yet to see any match where Palutena moves so fast that the other character can't get at her. Remember, every character gets access to customs. Custom Palutena may beat vanilla Bowser, but custom Bowser gets Dash Slash.

To be honest, this is character competitive impressions, not custom competitive impressions. Customs on/off should be left for other threads. Edit: Actually, is there a customs competitive discussion thread? If there isn't, that would explain why it always ends up here.


Speaking of customs though, why in the name of Din are Ganon's not using Dark Fists at custom tourneys? Like, Phenom yesterday was using Dark Vault, which is utterly worthless. Dark Fists says "no" to pretty much everything Ganon hates, and it kills below 40%!

With that said, I eagerly await the day when Ganon finally uses Dark Fists properly on stream. Then people will see the true power of the Dark Lord.

Bonus edit: I just watched a clip of a Lucario using slow aura sphere. It seems that the Windbox can marginally increase knockback if you throw the opponent towards it. A DK almost died to a plain old boring F-throw at 94%.

Well that kind of is my impression of Palutena. None of her customs really help her deal with the best characters in the game and their superior boxing games.

I saw the match you are talking about, I guess he just went for the higher recovery. It didn't factor much into the set. The armor doesn't help much vs Diddy Kong's preferred close range options. A character like Diddy isnt going to challenge you deep below the stage anyway, so the super armor can be a bit pointless there as well.

 

[Project Quarantine]

*looks at tier list*

Ike lower in customs than in default
Samus as second worst with customs
Toon Link too high in both
Lucario way too low in both
Luigi too high in customs and above Pikachu in both
Mii Swordfighter is a bit too low
Wii Fit Trainer way too high in customs (though she is good)

Yeah no.......i don't disagree with it completely, but there are some very questionable placings here.

I mean, this tier list still has a lot of things that could be better according to the general population of experienced smashers, but it's one of the best I've seen. This is simply because all other tier lists have more questionable placements than this one.

The meta is so young :D

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash we got customs

 

[Teshie U]

Yeah, anyone telling you that they KNOW the customs meta is more balanced is delusional, even though the very nature of customs makes them balancing, since they -in effect- allow players to patch their own characters in a sense, even though thus far its quite obvious that there's a larger viable cast in the custom meta. Despite that you are apparently delusional if you think that what is likely the case is likely the case. Why? Because the subject is customs of course.

On the other hand its apparently quite fine to think that Palutena is somehow going to become DDD and be nearly impossible for half the cast to deal with at all despite their being no proof for that. Despite the fact that what we have seen from Aerolink makes it quite obvious that, Palutena while seemingly a high tier character with customs on, is in fact nowhere near OP. Or do you have some secret Palutena tech no else knows about?

In case you guys aren't noticing this is why you are being waaaaaay too lax about customs discussions, the bar for what counts as an argument is simply so much lower if you are against than if you are for. You can't speculate for at all, even with clear indications supporting your case, if you do that you are delusional, you can however speculate against, even with clear indications that you are wrong. The rules of the discourse are f-cked up.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, that was dumb.

What we have seen from Aerolink is that Palutena still loses to all the best characters with customs on (Diddy, Rosalina, Fox etc.) as I said. Palutena's customs just give her more mobility and her problem wasn't really catching people, she isn't very slow to begin with. But her tilts are very commited, her jab is slow, grab is on the laggier side. She is still fairly easy to keep out of you are patient and using a character with a good close range game (all of top/high tier), but her mobility can make her much more troublesome than Sonic to catch if she is simply trying to go around you. Most characters can force interaction with Sonic because he has to go through or commit to his weak air game to go around you. Palutena more MUCH faster in the air than Sonic.

I don't think Palutena will take over the metagame, but she could be a strong CP character like Mac for countering characters that do okay vs a high tier main.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Well that kind of is my impression of Palutena. None of her customs really help her deal with the best characters in the game and their superior boxing games.

I saw the match you are talking about, I guess he just went for the higher recovery. It didn't factor much into the set. The armor doesn't help much vs Diddy Kong's preferred close range options. A character like Diddy isnt going to challenge you deep below the stage anyway, so the super armor can be a bit pointless there as well.

Actually her customs make her matchups with top tier go from sh*t to at least fully manageable. It's quite safe to say she's far better of against the best characters in the game with customs on.

Your comparison of customs Palutena with brawl DDD is bats. But if we assume it to be correct then we can at least also safely say that Sonic invalidates half the cast.

Indeed when customs first were brought up people realized and understood that customs were going to have a balancing effect overall simply due to what they are. However, this changed after naysayers started ********, nowadays there's a pre-ontological bias against customs.

Edit: Teshie U, saw your last post now, and I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. Default Palutena is way worse off against top tiers. I'm not even going to explain why because frankly you should have some sort of clue before you start speaking, its not my job to do your homework for you.

You also switched from DDD to Little Mac now, changing the nature your original argument. Ergo, moving the goalpost. Little Mac is not comparable to DDD at all. It's still all speculation from your side too. Unfortunately this kind of speculating about this or that being OP is another one of the f-cked up things which is apparently normal to do now thanks to anti-customs people.

 

[Deathcarter]

*looks at tier list*

Ike lower in customs than in default
Samus as second worst with customs
Toon Link too high in both
Lucario way too low in both
Luigi too high in customs and above Pikachu in both
Mii Swordfighter is a bit too low
Wii Fit Trainer way too high in customs (though she is good)

Yeah no.......i don't disagree with it completely, but there are some very questionable placings here.

Dude......Ike is higher in the custom tier list. He's on the second row of B tier in the custom list while on the third row of B tier in the non-custom list.

 

[zeldasmash]

Dude......Ike is higher in the custom tier list. He's on the second row of B tier in the custom list while on the third row of B tier in the non-custom list.

Ike is 36th on the non-customs list, while he is 41st on the customs list. But then i saw *order within rows doesn't matter" sooo.......my bad.

 

[Blobface]

Geeze why do people hate Dabuz so much. I know he camped for a long time in Apex but ever since then he hasn't had a match over 3 minutes.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Sheeple. Moreover Tweek deserved to lose for not using customs. Would've made that Rosa matchup more manageable.