Character Competitive Impressions

[Jams.]

He can D-throw > D-air > F-tilt > D-Smash if the opponent doesn't tech D-air.

Also: http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete

Another custom tourney that's going on the Midwest.

So I enter this stream and catch the start of a game, went to watch S@X for 6 minutes, come back, and the set is still 0-0; however, both players still have 3 stocks. "That's weird, I guess it's game 2 or 3 but they forgot to update," I rationalized. Then I looked at the clock and there were 2 minutes left. NEITHER PLAYER HAD TAKEN A STOCK IN THE SPAN OF 6 MINUTES. It was Villager versus Olimar. The game ended in a timeout with 5 stocks remaining amongst the two players.

Honestly, I feel like the Olimar played correctly by not approaching as Olimar has the tools to build a percent lead in the matchup, and also secures the kill more easily. It's really frustrating to watch the Villager player be perfectly content to likely lose an 8 minute timeout in hopes of securing the first kill though. Patience is usually a virtue, but sometimes defensive gameplay is suboptimal and just makes the game look awful.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Man watching s@x dk up b looks like the best move in the game

 

[Blobface]

's D-air and Wizard Foot.

Wizard's foot not so much (though it instakills due to high base Knockback), but D-air is definitely better than Falcons. Giant fat hitbox, kills some characters at 0% is guaranteed to kill past 15%, and the character with it is one of the best at forcing airdodges offstage.

 

[HeroMystic]

So I enter this stream and catch the start of a game, went to watch S@X for 6 minutes, come back, and the set is still 0-0; however, both players still have 3 stocks. "That's weird, I guess it's game 2 or 3 but they forgot to update," I rationalized. Then I looked at the clock and there were 2 minutes left. NEITHER PLAYER HAD TAKEN A STOCK IN THE SPAN OF 6 MINUTES. It was Villager versus Olimar. The game ended in a timeout with 5 stocks remaining amongst the two players.

Honestly, I feel like the Olimar played correctly by not approaching as Olimar has the tools to build a percent lead in the matchup, and also secures the kill more easily. It's really frustrating to watch the Villager player be perfectly content to likely lose an 8 minute timeout in hopes of securing the first kill though. Patience is usually a virtue, but sometimes defensive gameplay is suboptimal and just makes the game look awful.

Yeah that was a horrible game.

But now it's Mario vs Sonic.

Mario is running Scalding FLUDD. If you want to see how awesome this custom is, watch this game: http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete

XeroXen lost, but that was pretty good play from him. He just needs to work more on the Sonic MU.

 

[TriTails]

Landing Wizkick is easy if you full hop -> Wizkick at the ledge -> QUICKLY double jump -> Dark Dive. If you miss though, you're in trouble. I get your point, and it doesn't always meteor.

 

[Blobface]

Just out of curiosity, I've noticed a lot of people don't like Sonic, and I'm just curious why.

(I can't help but wonder if it has to do with his personality as a character)

 

[Smog Frog]

Just out of curiosity, I've noticed a lot of people don't like Sonic, and I'm just curious why.

(I can't help but wonder if it has to do with his personality as a character)

its because you cant listen to prolonged sonic play without damaging your hearing(**** those spin sounds)

 

[TriTails]

Just out of curiosity, I've noticed a lot of people don't like Sonic, and I'm just curious why.

(I can't help but wonder if it has to do with his personality as a character)

- People hate Spin Dash
- People hate his games and fanbases (Sonic 06)
- People hate his annoying attitude
- He is 2 fast

That's all I can think off my head.

 

[Blobface]

There's something I've noticed a lot in general; a lot of people go for the easiest followups. Instead of trying to guess what the opponent will do as a defensive option and trying to capitalize on that, a lot of players go for safe, guaranteed attacks. What I'm wondering is, is this a result of a lack of experience or is this what Smash 4 will always be? People could get a lot more reward-on-hit if they put more mindgames in their combos.

 

[Shaya]

^ It's why predominately Brawl players still have the best results in Smash 4.
But at the same time it takes a lot of getting used to the timing of how real things are in this game, it'll get better over time either way.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There's something I've noticed a lot in general; a lot of people go for the easiest followups. Instead of trying to guess what the opponent will do as a defensive option and trying to capitalize on that, a lot of players go for safe, guaranteed attacks. What I'm wondering is, is this a result of a lack of experience or is this what Smash 4 will always be? People could get a lot more reward-on-hit if they put more mindgames in their combos.

You should take the damage when you can. Depending on the situation you can lose a lot of momentum going for that huge gamble.

 

[Teshie U]

In Smash 4 more than ever, its important to make that hard read for the early KO instead of just building damage as rage can come back to bite you.

 

[Cenizas]

You should take the damage when you can. Depending on the situation you can lose a lot of momentum going for that huge gamble.

That's the thing though, when you can. When should you, or why should you even? There's too many factors in each game to make risk-taking into a formula. Gambling is risky business, and we all know how a lot of Smashers in general feel about risks. I don't understand what you're really trying to say though, you're just making a "no duh" sort of statement everyone would agree with, an echo. No hard feelings, there's just not really much to say about this, other than "yes."

 

[HeroMystic]

There's something I've noticed a lot in general; a lot of people go for the easiest followups. Instead of trying to guess what the opponent will do as a defensive option and trying to capitalize on that, a lot of players go for safe, guaranteed attacks. What I'm wondering is, is this a result of a lack of experience or is this what Smash 4 will always be? People could get a lot more reward-on-hit if they put more mindgames in their combos.

It's inexperience in a tournament setting.

Mid to High-Mid players will almost always go for guaranteed follow-ups and tighten up their fundamentals as much as possible in order to win. The ones who lose will often be the ones who have improper fundamentals and generally be less safe.

The High and Top level players are ones who are in engrained and become one with their character and have such tight fundamentals that they can afford to get into the heads of their opponents and make reads, extending their combos and doing harder reads. It really comes with time, and unfortunately many players do not have the luxury to practice so much with other people that they're capable of reaching that High level.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's the thing though, when you can. When should you, or why should you even? There's too many factors in each game to make risk-taking into a formula. Gambling is risky business, and we all know how a lot of Smashers in general feel about risks. I don't understand what you're really trying to say though, you're just making a "no duh" sort of statement everyone would agree with, an echo. No hard feelings, there's just not really much to say about this, other than "yes."

Ok ? Thanks for the input?

 

[Macedonian]

just throwing it out there im really not a fan of watching custom donkey kong at all. almost reminds me of watching a sonic match where your chasing around some annoying hard to punish attack all match.

to me its almost not even as much of a balance issue, its just everybody wants low tier chars to magically become good because of customs, and it just seems like when they do they become really strong mostly on the basis of one or two special moves, and that makes the match really boring to watch.

 

[Blobface]

just throwing it out there im really not a fan of watching custom donkey kong at all. almost reminds me of watching a sonic match where your chasing around some annoying hard to punish attack all match.

to me its almost not even as much of a balance issue, its just everybody wants low tier chars to magically become good because of customs, and it just seems like when they do they become really strong mostly on the basis of one or two special moves, and that makes the match really boring to watch.

Kong Cyclone has some significant weaknesses that aren't being commonly exploited yet. Since not autocanceling it leaves you with craptons of lag, you must autocancel it on platforms*. This means you almost always know where the DK is going. If you want a great example of this being abused, watch Boss vs Average Joe (both sets). Boss is obviously unused to Kong Cyclone at first, but over time, he starts shielding it and abusing the crap position DK forces himself into.

Over time, this will become commonplace. This applies to all really good customs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

just throwing it out there im really not a fan of watching custom donkey kong at all. almost reminds me of watching a sonic match where your chasing around some annoying hard to punish attack all match.

to me its almost not even as much of a balance issue, its just everybody wants low tier chars to magically become good because of customs, and it just seems like when they do they become really strong mostly on the basis of one or two special moves, and that makes the match really boring to watch.

So low tiers should remain low tiers even though they have a non-broken way to become viable at the expense of having to relearn some characters/matchups?

 

[Macedonian]

yea i get that it is slightly punishable, but my main problem is that these moves get really stale to watch and they become the linchpin of making a character more viable.

 

[Project Quarantine]

just throwing it out there im really not a fan of watching custom donkey kong at all. almost reminds me of watching a sonic match where your chasing around some annoying hard to punish attack all match.

to me its almost not even as much of a balance issue, its just everybody wants low tier chars to magically become good because of customs, and it just seems like when they do they become really strong mostly on the basis of one or two special moves, and that makes the match really boring to watch.

For me, it's the fact that DK has one single move that makes him significantly better than without and more polarizing for the meta. Not a playste, a single move. I don't want to hastily call for it to be BANNED, but I also don't want people to throw it under the bus as being, "not op, but makes DK good." A character should be good not because of one move, rather a culmination of tactics put together. I know DK doesn't only use that move, but if you watch some of Average Joe, he uses it like its his only move and the rest of what he has is equivalent to macs air game. What's worse, he wins with it.

 

[thehard]

Doesn't Boss... not practice Smash 4? Or own a copy?

If your opponent doesn't understand proper countertactics, you should spam Cyclone (or any move) until they learn.

Anyway, Boss did end up adapting and shut out Joe pretty handily by the end of the set. I've mentioned his mistakes earlier but I'd also like to point out that because of Luigi's slipperiness, he has a hard time punishing Cyclone if he comes in slight contact with the windbox.

 

[Jams.]

I really wish more top level players would use small/small Mii Brawler, as I believe the character is much stronger than default Brawler, who is already very competitive.

I think Mii Brawler is a high tier character that has very clear weaknesses (mediocre range, Melee Marth syndrome, poor vertical recovery), but insane overbearing strengths in his low percent kill set-ups.I think tiny Brawler makes some negligible trade-offs compared to default Brawler, but in return receives noticeable gains. He's lighter, but he's also the size of Pikachu (since when have you seen a Pikachu sized human being? Nintendo pls) and much harder to hit with SH aerials; in addition, he's much heavier than he appears, much like Ness. He has lower damage, but it's negligible and he kills at 40% anyway. Finally, he has lower range, which is bad in some matchups, but made up for by the huge boost in mobility.

What does tiny Brawler get in return? Absolutely bonkers mobility specs. He's Captain Falcon on the ground, and Yoshi in the air (without Yoshi's floatiness and weird jumps). That's pretty crazy in and of itself, but then you have to consider Mii Brawler's best tool: helicopter kick. With such insane mobility, tiny Brawler is also able to better combo into helicopter, and get some sweet sweet low percent kills. Of course, default Brawler can also kill super early with the right positioning, so what's the big deal? Well, one of the main problems of Mii Brawler is Melee Marth syndrome: the inability to secure kills once your opponent is out your kill confirm percent range. In this situation, both Melee Marth and Brawl must land a raw kill move, which is predictable and risky. With tiny Brawler however, many of default Brawler's 50/50s get turned into true combos, and his 50/50s get extended to much higher percents. "Don't get grabbed near the ledge" seemed to be something that came up often as counterplay to Mii Brawler, but I think tiny Brawler has the ability to confirm low percent kills even from the middle of the stage.

In short, tiny Brawler is an annoying, hard to hit ****** who grabs you with Captain Falcon ground speed, combos you offstage to 30%, kills you with helicopter kick, then drifts back to the ledge safely with Yoshi air mobility. I would really like to see a top player push tiny Brawler to his limits, and see how strong his combo game and kill confirms really are.

I know @ Jigglymaster prefers to use default Brawler, and I'd like to ask what advantages default Brawler has over tiny Brawler.

 

[ぱみゅ]

For me, it's the fact that DK has one single move that makes him significantly better than without and more polarizing for the meta. Not a playste, a single move. I don't want to hastily call for it to be BANNED, but I also don't want people to throw it under the bus as being, "not op, but makes DK good." A character should be good not because of one move, rather a culmination of tactics put together. I know DK doesn't only use that move, but if you watch some of Average Joe, he uses it like its his only move and the rest of what he has is equivalent to macs air game. What's worse, he wins with it.

Again with those "should/shouldn't". If it works it works, it's not broken, and to some extent it's predictable. Other than being annoying to watch/play against, what is the problem with this?

 

[Macedonian]

the problem is gameplay, the community has to choose weather it will continue to use customs in competitive events and i believe gameplay should be just as big a factor as balance. it can be balanced for a villager to camp behind his sapling all game but that makes a boring game. kong cyclone can be balanced but its still boring to watch and i believe poor design.

 

[Teshie U]

I understand that feeling. Though the same could be said for many Sonic players or the many characters that can and will repeatedly dash grab everything.

Alot of moments Joe was ruining his own punishes by using Up B instead of something else. He could have gimped Boss with Bair once but he cycloned and pulled him back towards the stage.

 

[thehard]

I would have liked to see Boss make a customs switch or character switch. How does Mario's Cape interact with Cyclone when you're stuck in it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just out of curiosity, I've noticed a lot of people don't like Sonic, and I'm just curious why.

(I can't help but wonder if it has to do with his personality as a character)

Unless you have a very spammable projectile or similar mobility to him, Sonic tends to slow the game down to a crawl due to being hard for many characters to juggle, having high reward, and just fundamentally forcing a lot of defensive responses in neutral due to how easily he ignores midrange.

At least Falcon has a really awful recovery and eats fastfaller juggles when he gets hit, so you know that if you outplay him you can make it count. Sonic in contrast is just really boring to play against.

 

[Antonykun]

I would have liked to see Boss make a customs switch or character switch. How does Mario's Cape interact with Cyclone when you're stuck in it?

Dk gets reflected I lost a stock like that.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I really wish more top level players would use small/small Mii Brawler, as I believe the character is much stronger than default Brawler, who is already very competitive.

I think Mii Brawler is a high tier character that has very clear weaknesses (mediocre range, Melee Marth syndrome, poor vertical recovery), but insane overbearing strengths in his low percent kill set-ups.I think tiny Brawler makes some negligible trade-offs compared to default Brawler, but in return receives noticeable gains. He's lighter, but he's also the size of Pikachu (since when have you seen a Pikachu sized human being? Nintendo pls) and much harder to hit with SH aerials; in addition, he's much heavier than he appears, much like Ness. He has lower damage, but it's negligible and he kills at 40% anyway. Finally, he has lower range, which is bad in some matchups, but made up for by the huge boost in mobility.

What does tiny Brawler get in return? Absolutely bonkers mobility specs. He's Captain Falcon on the ground, and Yoshi in the air (without Yoshi's floatiness and weird jumps). That's pretty crazy in and of itself, but then you have to consider Mii Brawler's best tool: helicopter kick. With such insane mobility, tiny Brawler is also able to better combo into helicopter, and get some sweet sweet low percent kills. Of course, default Brawler can also kill super early with the right positioning, so what's the big deal? Well, one of the main problems of Mii Brawler is Melee Marth syndrome: the inability to secure kills once your opponent is out your kill confirm percent range. In this situation, both Melee Marth and Brawl must land a raw kill move, which is predictable and risky. With tiny Brawler however, many of default Brawler's 50/50s get turned into true combos, and his 50/50s get extended to much higher percents. "Don't get grabbed near the ledge" seemed to be something that came up often as counterplay to Mii Brawler, but I think tiny Brawler has the ability to confirm low percent kills even from the middle of the stage.

In short, tiny Brawler is an annoying, hard to hit ****** who grabs you with Captain Falcon ground speed, combos you offstage to 30%, kills you with helicopter kick, then drifts back to the ledge safely with Yoshi air mobility. I would really like to see a top player push tiny Brawler to his limits, and see how strong his combo game and kill confirms really are.

I know @ Jigglymaster prefers to use default Brawler, and I'd like to ask what advantages default Brawler has over tiny Brawler.

There's a couple of reasons, mostly due to the fact that I support a size ban on the mii fighters because they're kind of stupid when they get to be as tiny as possible. Its like hey, lets just make the characters frame data flat out better for no reason. Imagine if there was a Tiny sized Diddy Kong. They also look really stupid being small as well, unnaturally small with big heads? No thanks. Sure, default size mii brawler probably has better grab range, does more damage, longer feint jump, and lives longer, but he still doesn't compare to 0/0 Mii Brawler. Honestly I just use default size because I feel happy playing that way and he's viable enough for me. Of course at EVO if it comes to it, I'll have to use 0/0 Mii Brawler because if I want to win, I have to use every single tool the rules are giving me, the gloves are coming off. Im not going to enjoy it, but it is what it is. Thats why I support a ban for Mii Fighter sizes, they just aren't natural.

TL:DR version: I purposely restrain myself to enjoy the game more, but when it comes to a tournament like EVO where more is on the steak, I will use Tiny Mii Brawler because it has been given to me as a tool despite my warnings to have them ban it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There's a couple of reasons, mostly due to the fact that I support a size ban on the mii fighters because they're kind of stupid when they get to be as tiny as possible. Its like hey, lets just make the characters frame data flat out better for no reason. Imagine if there was a Tiny sized Diddy Kong. They also look really stupid being small as well, unnaturally small with big heads? No thanks. Sure, default size mii brawler probably has better grab range, does more damage, longer feint jump, and lives longer, but he still doesn't compare to 0/0 Mii Brawler. Honestly I just use default size because I feel happy playing that way and he's viable enough for me. Of course at EVO if it comes to it, I'll have to use 0/0 Mii Brawler because if I want to win, I have to use every single tool the rules are giving me, the gloves are coming off. Im not going to enjoy it, but it is what it is. Thats why I support a ban for Mii Fighter sizes, they just aren't natural.

TL:DR version: I purposely restrain myself to enjoy the game more, but when it comes to a tournament like EVO where more is on the steak, I will use Tiny Mii Brawler because it has been given to me as a tool despite my warnings to have them ban it.

If only its USpecials weren't ridiculously strong...

 

[Yonder]

As a Falcon secondary I can tell you all the range on the end of rapid jabs is obnoxious.

Seriously... Falcon didn't even punched the opponent and there the enemy fly.

Though, if you have a F3 aerial you can just cheese him with it if your ever get caught in that rapid jab (Luigi vs Falcon: Falcon rapid jab, then Luigi N-air. He takes about 12% while Luigi only takes like 4-7%, AND Luigi get a free grab if it's at low percents).

I can vouch for this, Luigi's nair stuffs Falcon's jab instantly. For some reason, it doesn't stuff Mac's though. Guess it has higher priority.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Kong Cyclone has some significant weaknesses that aren't being commonly exploited yet. Since not autocanceling it leaves you with craptons of lag, you must autocancel it on platforms*. This means you almost always know where the DK is going. If you want a great example of this being abused, watch Boss vs Average Joe (both sets). Boss is obviously unused to Kong Cyclone at first, but over time, he starts shielding it and abusing the crap position DK forces himself into.

Over time, this will become commonplace. This applies to all really good customs.

You're an idiot. Kong Cyclone is a move that gives a FREE recovery everytime. It autocancels on platforms and the stage fairly easy. He can then act out of it. It's not going to be common to punish a move that sucks you up off the ground and can't be punished by an attack. I lost to Average Joe almost purely because of that one move. Nothing else.

 

[thehard]

Here's the set for you analyst types: http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/648788101?t=7h07m26s I might post something on this in the morning.

Personally Joe, I thought you weren't shielding enough.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm going to once again point to this match john numbers vs dkWill. John numbere did a really good job of dealing with kong cyclone. Check it out

Smash Attack 5 - SSB4 Customs - Losers Final - Ho…: http://youtu.be/5WJ4JltwECc

 

[Blobface]

For me, it's the fact that DK has one single move that makes him significantly better than without and more polarizing for the meta. Not a playste, a single move. I don't want to hastily call for it to be BANNED, but I also don't want people to throw it under the bus as being, "not op, but makes DK good." A character should be good not because of one move, rather a culmination of tactics put together.

If what you meant was "take Kong Cyclone away from DK and he becomes bad", I'm pretty sure you could do that to any character in the game. Sheik without Needles? ZSS without Paralyzer? Ganon without Flame Choke? Rosalina without Luma? Villager without slingshot? etc. etc.

If what you meant was "this one move is the only thing you're fighting, and is overcentralizing", then of course it is, if you don't know what to do against it. That applies to everything. If you didn't know Flip Jump was invincible, you'd fail every single attempt you made to press your advantage. If you didn't know Ganon's U-smash has ridiculous IASA frames, you'd get punished every single time. If you didn't know Doc's Up-B kills and comes out on frame 3, you'd have all kinds of fun attempting to challenge him, especially in the air. etc. etc.

Due to how it autocancels, you almost always know where DK will be going with Kong Cyclone. If DK uses Kong Cyclone just above the ground on Smashville, he's headed for the platform. Even on Battlefield, he only has two options at best and it's not like he can just teleport between them. Even then, being on a platform with someone below you is always a disadvantageous position to begin with.

I know DK doesn't only use that move, but if you watch some of Average Joe, he uses it like its his only move and the rest of what he has is equivalent to macs air game. What's worse, he wins with it.

This is ridiculous. Average Joe sent Boss to losers and still successfully took a game off of him (a two-stock, might I add) later on in grand finals. Boss was only adversely affected by Kong Cyclone the first game they played of 8, and had clearly adjusted his playstyle to deal with it afterward. If we discount the first win entirely (which is silly honestly, I could just as well discount the games on Town and City since Kong Cyclone isn't that good there), that means AJ has a 2/7 win rate against someone who has won almost every single Smash 4 Xanadu.

I'm sure people are sick of hearing "adapt", but well, adapt. Strong customs are very capable of causing losses that might not have happened in a customs off meta, but people will learn to counterplay them. It'll remain a strong custom, but it won't be a deciding factor in a match. It'll just be another thing to know in a matchup. This will happen faster if you actually deal with the move.

Eventually, 3-6 months from now, pretty much everyone will know how to counterplay Kong Cyclone.

I'm sorry for singling you out like this. This is mostly just directed at "Kong Cyclone is broken! (or any other custom)" in general.


Urgh I'm going to have to do this all over again when Dark Fists is given a proper showing on-stream

 

[Kofu]

There's a couple of reasons, mostly due to the fact that I support a size ban on the mii fighters because they're kind of stupid when they get to be as tiny as possible. Its like hey, lets just make the characters frame data flat out better for no reason. Imagine if there was a Tiny sized Diddy Kong. They also look really stupid being small as well, unnaturally small with big heads? No thanks. Sure, default size mii brawler probably has better grab range, does more damage, longer feint jump, and lives longer, but he still doesn't compare to 0/0 Mii Brawler. Honestly I just use default size because I feel happy playing that way and he's viable enough for me. Of course at EVO if it comes to it, I'll have to use 0/0 Mii Brawler because if I want to win, I have to use every single tool the rules are giving me, the gloves are coming off. Im not going to enjoy it, but it is what it is. Thats why I support a ban for Mii Fighter sizes, they just aren't natural.

TL:DR version: I purposely restrain myself to enjoy the game more, but when it comes to a tournament like EVO where more is on the steak, I will use Tiny Mii Brawler because it has been given to me as a tool despite my warnings to have them ban it.

I agree with you though I have another reason as well, and that's simply convenience. Different Mii users (not that there are a LOT) have different preferences and if you don't have a 3DS to transfer your preferred Mii you better hope the TO has your set and size combo.

 

[thehard]

I'd like to point out that as the set went on, Boss would simply wait when Joe platform cancelled and in doing so Joe was forced to stay in his shield, because DK being above any character is a REALLY bad position. Boss was then totally free to poke at him with up-airs.

 

[HeroMystic]

Personally Joe, I thought you weren't shielding enough.

This and everyone seriously needs to realize that DK is weaker without platforms. This worked similarly in Brawl DK's Up-B. It only auto-cancels if DK begins Cyclone from below a surface.

This means FD and T&C are your go-to counterpicks. Beyond that, it's going to be DH or Delfino.

You can also knock DK out of cyclone by air dodging the first hit (while it pulls you in) and then using an attack before the 2nd portion of Super Armor frames kick in (Sonic's fastest punish is N-air).

But yes Kong Cyclone is annoying.

 

[Hippieslayer]

yea i get that it is slightly punishable, but my main problem is that these moves get really stale to watch and they become the linchpin of making a character more viable.

it is not "slightly punishable" it is punishable, people need to learn how to counter the move

Edit: Wooooow so many uneducated people whining about kong cyclone. Amazing. Have we not come further than this? Of course not.. because when it comes to customs.. anything goes thanks to the inherent anit customs bias that's in the competitive scene atm.

Some of the stuff being written is like.. is this going on in the competitive sub-forums? Ah well just confirms the fact that anti customs meta is indeed scrub meta.

 

[Teshie U]

You're an idiot. Kong Cyclone is a move that gives a FREE recovery everytime. It autocancels on platforms and the stage fairly easy. He can then act out of it. It's not going to be common to punish a move that sucks you up off the ground and can't be punished by an attack. I lost to Average Joe almost purely because of that one move. Nothing else.

Frame 15 super armor isn't that free. The super armor cancelling into the ledge grab is very strong, but you can still ledge trap him from there like anyone else. If he is trying to autocancel from the ledge to the main platform, you can just grab him. Important to note that you can always just grab him if he is level with you or trying to autocancel on the platform you are on. Its understandable that you wouldn't bother with trying to edgeguard it though as it feels almost pointless, but Sonic is almost the same way. No one really tries to edgeguard him because there is a pretty low chance to beating spring invincibility chaining into ledge invincibility.

I definitely find your distaste for the move ironic as Spindash stirs similar feelings in most people. The obnoxious safety of it. The willingness of Sonics to repeatedly use it back and forth and go unpunished.

Shielding beats cyclone, but the rest of DK beats shielding. Cyclone mostly just scoops up other defensive options like rolls, airdodges and spotdodges. Aggressive plays and reacting properly to cyclone as a combo breaker is effective if you cant just zone him out. Cyclone is often unsafe on hit and it does pretty poor damage for a heavy.