Character Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

Geeze why do people hate Dabuz so much. I know he camped for a long time in Apex but ever since then he hasn't had a match over 3 minutes.

it tends to stick when you win a set in all timeouts

 

[Blobface]

Ok, I must be missing something in the meta, because people always seem to just let people back on-stage. I get that not everyone is Ganon (who kills you instantly if he hits you offstage), but why aren't people more aggressive with their edgeguarding?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

People are imperfect, first off. **** happens sometimes and you're not always guaranteed to thwart somebody's recovery. People can and do mix it up coming back to the stage, throwing off edgeguarding attempts. There's also a level of risk involved. You're right, not everybody is Ganon off-stage, but they may as well be Ganon off-stage if they get hit and exhaust their jumps and recovery options. Granted it's not too bad since recoveries are bat**** even in the vanilla game, but still, anti-edgeguarding is something you have to account for.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Teshie U]

Well obviously she gets a couple of new tricks, but her biggest benefit against someone who knows the matchup is being able to abuse her mobility. None of her specials fix her close range game and a patient player with a strong character will be able to zone her into irrelevance regardless.

Clearly you can see that Sonic doesn't move as fluidly in the air as he does on the ground. Every time he takes to the air, he gives up his mobility for single use specials with very committed trajectories.

The comparisons I was drawing to DDD/Sonic in Brawl was about how they could dominate all or almost all characters beneath them and get slaughtered by most above them based on a few attributes. Competitively speaking they could be strong CP characters to counter a counter character (hopefully you are following me here). I definitely see Palutena and Mac as useful pocket CP characters. Not as counters to top tiers, but as the counters to their initial counters.

You are definitely making a bold assumption that I don't know what I'm talking and that I don't have experience in these matchups just because you disagree with me. I'm guessing you have some credentials that automatically make you right about this don't you? Get off of your high horse, we are all speculating here. FWIW the coming patch will probably remove the infinite lightweight glitch and that give her the proper lapses in mobility to be only as evasive as shulk.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The infinite Lightweight glitch is finicky as hell, though. You need platforms and frame-specific timing, not to mention somebody flitting about in such disadvantage that she can't be stopped from executing it. I haven't seen a Palutena yet pull it off with the kinda consistency where they're running laps around people.

Smooth Criminal

 

[meleebrawler]

The sheer convenience of vanilla tournaments will ensure that customs do not become the only format.

People can just decide to use vanilla characters at a custom tournament if they're so inclined...

 

[Teshie U]

The infinite Lightweight glitch is finicky as hell, though. You need platforms and frame-specific timing, not to mention somebody flitting about in such disadvantage that she can't be stopped from executing it. I haven't seen a Palutena yet pull it off with the kinda consistency where they're running laps around people.

Smooth Criminal

Frame specific? Thats kind of an overstatement. I've never tried to do it and failed. Its VERY easy to do.

 

[meleebrawler]

Frame specific? Thats kind of an overstatement. I've never tried to do it and failed. Its VERY easy to do.

Not when someone is sharking platforms.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp more customs

 

[thehard]

RHS and VGBC running concurrently is unfair.

 

[Smog Frog]

it appears that vgbc is on dubs. if the timing's good, doubles will be over when RHS is over.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Frame specific? Thats kind of an overstatement. I've never tried to do it and failed. Its VERY easy to do.

Not when someone is sharking platforms.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Teshie U]

Not when someone is sharking platforms.

The matchup I'm talking about are the ones where the slower opponent would be hard pressed to get into position to punish lightweight refreshing. as they couldn't catch her anyway.
If you were already fast enough to catch her in lightweight, then it doesn't really matter if she refreshes or not. I'm not talking about some universal hardship against the entire cast.

 

[Hippieslayer]

He didn't say that it was easy to pull of when someone is pressuring you, just that its not frame specific, ergo you dont need to learn some tight timed button presses in order to use the Lightweight Glitch.

 

[Blobface]

DKWill vs Jtails just showed how limited Kong Cyclone really is. It's still a great move, but since you always know where he's going, you can put pressure on him immediately, if not get an outright punish.

 

[Teshie U]

The slow startup on the armor makes it pretty easy for Diddy to deal with. + He has a good command grab for the situation as well. Seemed like Jtails was whiffing alot of his banana combos, but its understandable.

 

[meleebrawler]

The matchup I'm talking about are the ones where the slower opponent would be hard pressed to get into position to punish lightweight refreshing. as they couldn't catch her anyway.
If you were already fast enough to catch her in lightweight, then it doesn't really matter if she refreshes or not. I'm not talking about some universal hardship against the entire cast.

If all she's doing is running away with Lightweight, even a slow character can catch up or intercept her eventually.
Many heavyweights actually have decent ground speed, so if Palutena does nothing to disrupt them they won't have much
trouble getting in a good position. Or if you're someone like Robin, just charge your projectile and blast away at her landings.

 

[PUK]

Lightweight has to be use before the grab. Palu's grab is really punishable, with a ton of end lag.
Superspeed and lightweight are not fast enough and can be read. So it's a high risk high reward on an overall average character. Not something on the level of Diddy: low risk high reward options with beautiful stat.

Also nairo definitively loves the hype.

 

[thehard]

Rosalina really cannot stand up to Sheik and Diddy huh

That was a really exciting finals.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of Palutena and customs, remind me to ban Halberd or any low ceiling stage as Falco... Yay Falco... Snippet from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZZ4zrK_ssU.

Speaking of ZeRo...

#RIPZeRO
#RIPFalco
#BanPalutena
#NerfPalutena
#RemovePalutena
#TunasAreNotAllowed
#BanHalberd
#SakuraiWaifuGameTooStrong

 

[ramon_el]

Nairo used in Grand Finals, what a exciting matches. Nairo's Diddy barely uses the banana hahaha xD.

Btw, I am new, nice to meet you hehe.

 

[Ulevo]

People can just decide to use vanilla characters at a custom tournament if they're so inclined...

That's not really the point of what I said though.

 

[Ffamran]

Er... vaBengal's way of using Charizard's Flamethrower against Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost was pretty nifty.

 

[Blobface]

Speaking of Palutena and customs, remind me to ban Halberd or any low ceiling stage as Falco... Yay Falco... Snippet from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZZ4zrK_ssU.

That was a legit 0-death wasn't it?

And it's not being done by Ganondorf.

So much salt.

On a side note @ Ffamran , was that D-throw --> B-air --> Dash Attack a true combo? It looked like it.


I'm beginning to think that Kong Cyclone isn't as good as we initially thought it was. Since you basically need to autocancel it, you're almost always limited to 1-2 places you can go with it. Not only does this make it predictable, but being on a platform with someone below you is a disadvantageous position.

 

[Ffamran]

That was a legit 0-death wasn't it?

And it's not being done by Ganondorf.

So much salt.

On a side note @ Ffamran , was that D-throw --> B-air --> Dash Attack a true combo? It looked like it.


I'm beginning to think that Kong Cyclone isn't as good as we initially thought it was. Since you basically need to autocancel it, you're almost always limited to 1-2 places you can go with it. Not only does this make it predictable, but being on a platform with someone below you is a disadvantageous position.

It was only two aerials as a 0 to death... And rage; never mess with an angry Pally. As for D-throw to RAR Bair to Dash Attack, it might depend on the character. I could see floaties get away from, but I don't know. I can't pull off RAR Bairs consistently with the 3DS, so yeah...

 

[thehard]

Props to Acid for playing that last game so smart and patiently, he lulled Seagull into a false sense of security, read his recovery pattern, and then ledge trump b-air'd him. No one expected that.

Falcon's jab is the savior of that matchup.

 

[Ulevo]

Props to Acid for playing that last game so smart and patiently, he lulled Seagull into a false sense of security, read his recovery pattern, and then ledge trump b-air'd him. No one expected that.

Falcon's jab is the savior of that matchup.

Falcon has a lot of bull **** for a character that's not top tier to be honest. Jab's real good but a lot of his moves and actions have much lower recovery than they should, and Falcon can just throw out Jab to cover a huge amount of punishes that the opponent earned. Jab out of a roll is dumb.

 

[Blobface]

People are imperfect, first off. **** happens sometimes and you're not always guaranteed to thwart somebody's recovery. People can and do mix it up coming back to the stage, throwing off edgeguarding attempts. There's also a level of risk involved. You're right, not everybody is Ganon off-stage, but they may as well be Ganon off-stage if they get hit and exhaust their jumps and recovery options. Granted it's not too bad since recoveries are bat**** even in the vanilla game, but still, anti-edgeguarding is something you have to account for.

Smooth Criminal

That makes sense, but what really bothers me is when Diddy is charging his jet-pack 10 miles off-stage (and for one reason or another he can't use monkey flip) and people just sit there and let him recover. Is there some kind of Diddy tech I don't know about or something?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That makes sense, but what really bothers me is when Diddy is charging his jet-pack 10 miles off-stage (and for one reason or another he can't use monkey flip) and people just sit there and let him recover. Is there some kind of Diddy tech I don't know about or something?

Yeah, it's called trading unfavorably with explosive barrels.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

Falcon's jab and back air are both very abusive moves.
I don't think there's a safer and faster fast fallen aerial in the game with that much power behind it. Even power shields don't give you anything. When sour spots of the move will combo into kills and the sweet spot (which has a elongated duration) can kill with rage sub100%.... gosh the risk/reward of it.

When Falcon is using his mobility well in neutral and facing backwards, I feel so little characters actually have a way to get through it. Falcon's bair is a legitimate walling move, and it doesn't help that his jab is a walling-out grounded move too lol.

Falcon is obviously way overtuned in this game, anyone can see that. Every single one of his moves has this "what the ****" impact with it to be honest.
Falcon is a really good example of what happens when you just give a character the high-end specs of every class of move. Only his specials are remotely lacklustre.

 

[TriTails]

As a Falcon secondary I can tell you all the range on the end of rapid jabs is obnoxious.

Seriously... Falcon didn't even punched the opponent and there the enemy fly.

Though, if you have a F3 aerial you can just cheese him with it if your ever get caught in that rapid jab (Luigi vs Falcon: Falcon rapid jab, then Luigi N-air. He takes about 12% while Luigi only takes like 4-7%, AND Luigi get a free grab if it's at low percents).

 

[Teshie U]

Barrels have alot of mobility and can get around alot of stuff. If you commit to covering a certain angle, charged barrels can go way around you and you lose stage control.

There is also the killing explosion.

 

[TriTails]

Speaking of Palutena and customs, remind me to ban Halberd or any low ceiling stage as Falco... Yay Falco... Snippet from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZZ4zrK_ssU.

Wut.

Just wut.

D-throw -> N-air -> U-air = Death to all who opposes me

Wait, Falco can D-throw -> B-air? Good to know. I'm trying to learn Falco (Because slow and pack a punch character suits me well).

 

[Blobface]

Wait, Falco can D-throw -> B-air? Good to know. I'm trying to learn Falco (Because slow and pack a punch character suits me well).

 

[HeroMystic]

Wait, Falco can D-throw -> B-air? Good to know. I'm trying to learn Falco (Because slow and pack a punch character suits me well).

He can D-throw > D-air > F-tilt > D-Smash if the opponent doesn't tech D-air.

Also: http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete

Another custom tourney that's going on the Midwest.

 

[Ffamran]

Wut.

Just wut.

D-throw -> N-air -> U-air = Death to all who opposes me

Wait, Falco can D-throw -> B-air? Good to know. I'm trying to learn Falco (Because slow and pack a punch character suits me well).

It's like when Will died to Luma's Uair juggles...

As for Falco, yeah, he can D-throw to RAR Bair which ZeRo has shown and @berserker. is a fan of.

 

[TriTails]

Already second Shenani bruh .

 

[Shaya]

Like here's a quick list of Falcon's stupidity:

1. Up air: almost twice the damage of Zero Suits, otherwise same landing lag and start up.
2. Forward Smash: has him step forward as the hitbox comes out like 1/5 stage length... legitimately doesn't make sense, he "teleports" forward too, funny to watch in slow motion.
3. Dash grab: almost a half stage length grab
4. Jab: ridiculously good, practically safe on shield, even wins against people holding shield to get pushed out for a "free punish" on every other multi jab... but falcon's finisher is almost as big as his forward smash.
5. Back Air. Guaranteed from ledge trumps (this is a smaller list than you'd think), Kills under 100%, safe on PERFECT SHIELD. 7 frames. Minimal landing lag. Sour spot scales ridiculously slow for an always hit-confirm follow up, auto cancels good too.
6. Up tilt. Why is Samus so unlucky?
7. Weight and mobility specs. Similar/better than Zero Suit Samus. Top tier weight. It's actually kinda obnoxious to see a character with this much weight, with this much range, and this little punishment room with such diversity in both the air and ground. Imagine if Brawl Snake had aerial mobility and his aerials weren't guaranteed DEATH to land with. His smash4 aerials have similar damage and power to them as Snake's did too.
8. Down Tilt... huge, set ups tech chases, also is a kill move. Safe-ish on block.
9. Down Air: definitely the most viable spike in the game. Unlike most other character's spikes, his comes out fast and isn't restricted to just a small area directly below the character. His horizontal hit of it kills too, unlike nearly all other characters who "sour spot" their spikes.
10. Forward Throw, Back Throw and Up Throw are all viable kill throws.

Now let's look at the moves that aren't so noticeably great but are still usable/some of the better moves in the game:
Forward Tilt (tech chase set ups/range is massive), Side-B (raptor), Up Smash (20% and not that unsafe), Down Smash (safe on shield, even the front hit), Neutral Air, Down Throw (not the guaranteed set ups ala Diddy/Luigi, thank ****ing god, this character doesn't need more brain dead quips to his kit) but still nearly always leading into his up air.

What's the only thing letting him down? Having a below average recovery.

No this post isn't to say Falcon is top tier [although I believe he kinda is] just how terribly he's been balanced in this game in ways that should've been way too obvious to any play testing whatsoever.
Any character having this many favourable numbers in their kits would be able to dominate, even if their design has structural weaknesses. Snake had like half, if not a third of the "silly" Falcon has and really all Snake has over S4 Falcon is... grenades (these cannot be underrated though) and up tilt.

 

[thehard]

No idea why Boss kept letting Avg. Joe take him to BF and no idea why he didn't try Ice Balls like last time. Incoming Cyclone hate (again)

 

[TriTails]

10. Down Air: definitely the most viable spike in the game. Unlike most other character's spikes, his comes out fast and isn't restricted to just a small area directly below the character. His horizontal hit of it kills too, unlike nearly all other characters who "sour spot" their spikes.

's D-air and Wizard Foot. Sweet or sour kills. 2 strongest spike in the game, and not too horribly hard to land.

Odd, I always had trouble landing Falcon's stomp with his mobility, but maybe it's just about practice...

Meanwhile... ZSS says...

Credit goes to SaccharoKirby in DA. If she doesn't like it I can take it off.