Character Competitive Impressions

[Seagull Joe]

Frame 15 super armor isn't that free. The super armor cancelling into the ledge grab is very strong, but you can still ledge trap him from there like anyone else. If he is trying to autocancel from the ledge to the main platform, you can just grab him. Important to note that you can always just grab him if he is level with you or trying to autocancel on the platform you are on. Its understandable that you wouldn't bother with trying to edgeguard it though as it feels almost pointless, but Sonic is almost the same way. No one really tries to edgeguard him because there is a pretty low chance to beating spring invincibility chaining into ledge invincibility.

I definitely find your distaste for the move ironic as Spindash stirs similar feelings in most people. The obnoxious safety of it. The willingness of Sonics to repeatedly use it back and forth and go unpunished.

Shielding beats cyclone, but the rest of DK beats shielding. Cyclone mostly just scoops up other defensive options like rolls, airdodges and spotdodges. Aggressive plays and reacting properly to cyclone as a combo breaker is effective if you cant just zone him out. Cyclone is often unsafe on hit and it does pretty poor damage for a heavy.

Literally nothing you said was worth reading.

15 frames is negligent because that's 1/4 of a second. I guarantee isn't going to be using kong cyclone right next to someone. The player would likely recover/approach with it from a far/mid range distance.

I've been edgeguarded by , , and while using 's up b. Dair'd when recovering. Bair'd when recovering. Bowling balled when recovering. The entire thing isn't invincible. It's also not a hitbox at all, which makes it not scary by any means.

Spindash ISN'T SAFE. The move has no priority. It loses to any lingering hitbox or projectile. It stops in place if someone is holding A and has a good jab like or . It can be pivot grabbed. Etc...

Shielding does not beat cyclone. That would imply you're rewarded by doing something versus it. It merely makes it so you don't take any damage.

Cyclone scoops up attacks, rolls, airdodges, spotdodges, and shield stabs. So...it beats everything except possibly command grabs...? Hype.

Cyclone can be autocanceled so it doesn't have to be safe on hit. Also, even if it does poor damage output, it puts you in the worst position possible. It sends you at a trajectory diagonally vertical offstage. then preps to bair edgeguard and close out a stock. It doesn't matter if cyclone doesn't kill at that point.

 

[Locke 06]

If what you meant was "take Kong Cyclone away from DK and he becomes bad", I'm pretty sure you could do that to any character in the game. Sheik without Needles? ZSS without Paralyzer? Ganon without Flame Choke? Rosalina without Luma? Villager without slingshot? etc. etc.

If what you meant was "this one move is the only thing you're fighting, and is overcentralizing", then of course it is, if you don't know what to do against it. That applies to everything. If you didn't know Flip Jump was invincible, you'd fail every single attempt you made to press your advantage. If you didn't know Ganon's U-smash has ridiculous IASA frames, you'd get punished every single time. If you didn't know Doc's Up-B kills and comes out on frame 3, you'd have all kinds of fun attempting to challenge him, especially in the air. etc. etc.

Due to how it autocancels, you almost always know where DK will be going with Kong Cyclone. If DK uses Kong Cyclone just above the ground on Smashville, he's headed for the platform. Even on Battlefield, he only has two options at best and it's not like he can just teleport between them. Even then, being on a platform with someone below you is always a disadvantageous position to begin with.


This is ridiculous. Average Joe sent Boss to losers and still successfully took a game off of him (a two-stock, might I add) later on in grand finals. Boss was only adversely affected by Kong Cyclone the first game they played of 8, and had clearly adjusted his playstyle to deal with it afterward. If we discount the first win entirely (which is silly honestly, I could just as well discount the games on Town and City since Kong Cyclone isn't that good there), that means AJ has a 2/7 win rate against someone who has won almost every single Smash 4 Xanadu.

I'm sure people are sick of hearing "adapt", but well, adapt. Strong customs are very capable of causing losses that might not have happened in a customs off meta, but people will learn to counterplay them. It'll remain a strong custom, but it won't be a deciding factor in a match. It'll just be another thing to know in a matchup. This will happen faster if you actually deal with the move.

Eventually, 3-6 months from now, pretty much everyone will know how to counterplay Kong Cyclone.

I'm sorry for singling you out like this. This is mostly just directed at "Kong Cyclone is broken! (or any other custom)" in general.

Please. Stop.

Kong Cyclone, while it may not be broken, is abusive. Diddy and Sheik's FAirs are abusive. Mac and Falcon's jabs are abusive. Mega Man's pellets and Sheik's needles are abusive AF. People have adapted, the correct counterplay to a spaced Sheik FAir on block is to not try and punish because you can't. Does that make it less abusive? Kong cyclone can go to the platform, but DK can also go to the ledge. If the worst thing that happens on a whiffed cyclone is you end up on a platform with no end lag, you have to realize that the risk/reward is in DK's favor.

You act as if the move will somehow be less good once you know how it works. Joe is right in that DK gains a SUPER ARMORED recovery. You can't ledge trump, because of the windbox, and if DK decides to go on stage, it autocancels. What's the counterplay here? Go attack him before his f15 super armor kicks in? Let's not underestimate how far away DK can start this move and end it at the ledge.

Kong Cyclone is good. Really good. And you know what? It'll probably get better as development for the move goes forward. Same with a lot of alternate specials (HSB in particular as it basically makes it so your opponent can never air dodge, like Falcon's knee).

Diddy's downthrow>up air can be DI'd. And if you miss the DI? You die. And if you DI it? You are using poor DI for Diddy's back throw, which can kill. Counterplays exist, but that doesn't make it disappear. It's still good. The NUMBERS are good and will always be good unless it gets patched.

You want people to adapt? Fine. But you could also be asked to adapt to the vanilla metagame. So I'd use that argument carefully.

Honestly, you make the pro-customs side look really ****ing annoying and ignorant and makes me want to be pro-vanilla.

 

[Hippieslayer]

15 frames is negligent because that's 1/4 of a second

^You only get gold like this when the subject is customs. Ah that Salt coming from someone who plays a character far better than customs DK anyway, to put it mildly its mildly pathetic. Apparently slow startup doesn't matter because it's 15 frames. Apparently relying on platforms to autocancel consistently and safely thereby always putting oneself in a bad position doesn't matter either.

You know.. Kong Cyclone didn't really save DK Will in that other tourney the other day, or a couple of other tourneys I've seen with him. But I guess Average Joe is just sooo much better than DK Will at kong cycloning.

Edit: Agree with Locke though, it's not like the move stops being really good just because ppl adapt ofc. But as he so eloquently points out that's the case with a lot of moves which arent customs.. moves which you dont get to whine about in nonsensical ways. Not sure what he's on about when saying you could ask people to adapt to the default meta, no one ever asks that because its taken as a granted. Because when it comes to the default meta standard competitive gaming rules apply and you dont get taken seriously when you whine about stuff being broken and ask for it to be banned.

I encourage moderators to start handing out warnings whenever someone writes something nonsensical hiding behind the anti customs bias.

 

[Teshie U]

Literally nothing you said was worth reading.

15 frames is negligent because that's 1/4 of a second. I guarantee isn't going to be using kong cyclone right next to someone. The player would likely recover/approach with it from a far/mid range distance.

I've been edgeguarded by , , and while using 's up b. Dair'd when recovering. Bair'd when recovering. Bowling balled when recovering. The entire thing isn't invincible. It's also not a hitbox at all, which makes it not scary by any means.

Spindash ISN'T SAFE. The move has no priority. It loses to any lingering hitbox or projectile. It stops in place if someone is holding A and has a good jab like or . It can be pivot grabbed. Etc...

Shielding does not beat cyclone. That would imply you're rewarded by doing something versus it. It merely makes it so you don't take any damage.

Cyclone scoops up attacks, rolls, airdodges, spotdodges, and shield stabs. So...it beats everything except possibly command grabs...? Hype.

Cyclone can be autocanceled so it doesn't have to be safe on hit. Also, even if it does poor damage output, it puts you in the worst position possible. It sends you at a trajectory diagonally vertical offstage. then preps to bair edgeguard and close out a stock. It doesn't matter if cyclone doesn't kill at that point.

Just pointing out that spindash doesn't feel good to deal with if you don't understand it fully, just like cyclone.

If you know its poor up close, then go get up close. Have you not seen that move trivialized by quick combo characters? Its slow and it trades poorly.

And yes shielding does beat it, even if you miss the punish OoS (doable, but its understable to whiff this) he gives up a favorable position to this. Plenty of things are technically safe when retreating into an unfavorable position. Lots of Fairs are safe when fully retreated and giving up stage control. Many moves are fairly safe when retreating to the ledge. If DK gets to a platform, just go stand under him.

edit: if boss can do it with luigi, you can do it with sonic. It shouldn't even be possible for Luigi to handle that move.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Seagull confirmed scrub.

 

[Locke 06]

Edit: Agree with Locke though, it's not like the move stops being really good just because ppl adapt ofc. But as he so eloquently points out that's the case with a lot of moves which arent customs.. moves which you dont get to whine about in nonsensical ways. Not sure what he's on about when saying you could ask people to adapt to the default meta, no one ever asks that because its taken as a granted. Because when it comes to the default meta standard competitive gaming rules apply and you dont get taken seriously when you whine about stuff being broken and ask for it to be banned.

I encourage moderators to start handing out warnings whenever someone writes something nonsensical hiding behind the anti customs bias.

I also encourage moderators to start handing out warnings whenever someone writes something nonsensical hiding behind the anti-vanilla bias.

Adapting to the default meta is taking away customs. Losing options. Adapting to the only having the default specials available to you. It's not asked, but maybe it should be asked. Why can't people adapt to having less options? If you can't or don't want to, does that make you a scrub?

The question that is posed by talking about moves which aren't customs, is how many more of these abusive moves do you want in the game? Do you want the game to be Smash 4 Minus? And what a lot of the pro-customs people are saying is "As long as it's more balanced and X gets to be viable, sure." Which is an issue. The game doesn't quite become as ridiculous as Brawl minus, but it is definitely a step towards that.

Turning customs on is simply a different game. There are a multitude of stronger moves available to characters that significantly change how you have to play the game. And some people simply want to play the game they think is better and more fun. And the response to that? "ur a scrub" or "#adapt"

Edit: I take that back. People are forced to play the game they don't like, complain about it, and then get called scrubs. Perhaps they are scrubs in that game, but the fact that their game is unavailable is something to be sympathetic for, not a cue to act like a playground bully.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Since when is it okay to arbitrarily cut away parts of the game? Of course you can adapt to that. But why should you when its wrong from the get go? Regardless, if you attend or watch a vanilla tourney you shouldnt be whining about it ofc.

In any case I believe you miss my point. My point is that when you whine about customs you get to use a lot of arguments which would be called out instantly as being scrubby if they didn't have to do with customs. I don't really see any nonsense hidden behind anti-vanilla bias either. Oh sure it exists, but is it so strange that consistent hyperboling from one side will generate a few hyperboles from the other side in response? Only when it comes to customs would 15 frames of start up be considered irrelevant.

Moreover, I strongly disagree that the custom game is brawl minus, it's not even close. That's a hyperbole if ever I saw one. Reason why that's the case as of now is because people don't know customs. Sure DK cyclone might have some semblance to brawl minus, but what's so bad about a mediocre character having a move that makes him viable but not top tier? I also think heavy skull bash is pretty silly, and the villager camp thing is lame. But there are 100+ other customs out there as well. Afaik the overall effect is that the game becomes less predictable, gains a considerable amount of depth, and allows for more player freedom in crafting their own playstyle.

Thing is customs are still very young, we have yet to see far from everything customs have to offer. Still people are laying down the verdict based on what they perceive to be a select few unfair losses.

Edit: Oh look another anti customs thread spouting myths: http://smashboards.com/threads/why-custom-singles-should-be-a-side-event.398608/

 

[TriTails]

I can vouch for this, Luigi's nair stuffs Falcon's jab instantly. For some reason, it doesn't stuff Mac's though. Guess it has higher priority.

Mac's rapid jab jabs at machine-gun rate that Luigi doesn't even has any window to N-air at all.

Hillarious on how Luigi can N-air out of Mario Tornado though. They still trade, but still... 10% vs 12% We still win .

But both aerials puts both bros to the air, oh wait.

 

[kj22]

Nairo used in Grand Finals, what a exciting matches. Nairo's Diddy barely uses the banana hahaha xD.

Btw, I am new, nice to meet you hehe.

Oh no...Nairo used diddy....the end is near...


Jk the day sonic mains turn to diddy is the day you know this game is screweeed

Watching Trela play Robin has spoiled me toward Robin play. Despite being a "slow" character, Robin can *move fluidly* w/proper movement techniques

 

[TriTails]

Oh no...Nairo used diddy....the end is near...

Don't worry.

Wenesday will be the day the reign of Diddy falls... .

 

[Sinister Slush]

And hopefully Sheik too.

 

[TriTails]

Agreed. Can't stand her with any other character but Luigi, who also has low lag on his normals (But not as obnoxious as Sheik's) and actually poses a threat to her up close. Other characters, she just cheese them off with attacks that end earlier before you can even move a limb to punish her.

Like, I went there to punish her moves, only to find she has rolled back and needles'd me off. That's... not funny.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Look, does any of this stuff about Kong Cyclone matter? Even barring the patch maybe fixing it in a few days, are DKs winning tournaments? No, they're not. Because, even though the move is really, really good, it's attached to a kinda ****ty character. And on block, you put yourself in a positional disadvantage. DK really sucks at dealing with the space below him. Boss beat this. How'd he do it? I dunno, I haven't watched the video. However, I seriously doubt it was through some mystic space voodoo. He probably just outplayed him. With Luigi, no less. A character that it would seem should have some non-trivial problems dealing with this move. It's cheesy, and really strong, but we can figure out how to beat it.

 

[Ulevo]

Falcon's jab and back air are both very abusive moves.
I don't think there's a safer and faster fast fallen aerial in the game with that much power behind it. Even power shields don't give you anything. When sour spots of the move will combo into kills and the sweet spot (which has a elongated duration) can kill with rage sub100%.... gosh the risk/reward of it.

When Falcon is using his mobility well in neutral and facing backwards, I feel so little characters actually have a way to get through it. Falcon's bair is a legitimate walling move, and it doesn't help that his jab is a walling-out grounded move too lol.

Falcon is obviously way overtuned in this game, anyone can see that. Every single one of his moves has this "what the ****" impact with it to be honest.
Falcon is a really good example of what happens when you just give a character the high-end specs of every class of move. Only his specials are remotely lacklustre.

My main gripe with him is honestly the hitbox sizes he has. They don't represent what he's doing at all. The horizontal up smash hitbox, the rear jab hitbox, the grab hitbox from Falcon Dive, and the end hitbox of the rapid jab combo are way too big. Especially the rapid jab combo. It makes Snake's up tilt look like a joke.

Look, does any of this stuff about Kong Cyclone matter? Even barring the patch maybe fixing it in a few days, are DKs winning tournaments? No, they're not. Because, even though the move is really, really good, it's attached to a kinda ****ty character. And on block, you put yourself in a positional disadvantage. DK really sucks at dealing with the space below him. Boss beat this. How'd he do it? I dunno, I haven't watched the video. However, I seriously doubt it was through some mystic space voodoo. He probably just outplayed him. With Luigi, no less. A character that it would seem should have some non-trivial problems dealing with this move. It's cheesy, and really strong, but we can figure out how to beat it.

I find it hilarious that people think vanilla Donkey Kong is a ****ty character.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I find it hilarious that people think vanilla Donkey Kong is a ****ty character.

Why? He's kinda bad. A big fat dude with very limited defensive options, a mediocre grab game, and some decent but not spectacular specials. He gets totally **** on by a lot of top tiers for a lot of the same reasons Bowser does.

 

[Shaya]

Anecdotes or comparisons of any scale are hyperbole if you want to begrudgingly deny people's notions.
The reality is that a majority of the active tournament scene are supporting everything as it is, "customs on and off, let's rock it" type of perspective, this is an amazing thing to me. Trashy rhetoric with an antagonistic attitude is caustic, "Look at this crap anti-customs meta, trying to think they're real" this is the disrespect that I would be infracting. Being extreme on any edge of the spectrum is exactly what the community doesn't need to keep it sane and flourishing.

The book definition of "scrub" has changed since 2008. This notion of healthy design has come to far outweigh "playing to win" with the "way the game was intended". We expect a balanced game and that is one we've been mostly given. People have a right to believe that a game with "less problems" is better than one otherwise. I'm pretty firmly in that boat.

Polarising or degenerative gameplay moves don't really add to the game. While I think Seagull could've played better/smarter, his points on it's lack of counterplay aren't really wrong either. Grabs (kinda luck to succeed with?) or shielding forever is your best bet. Feeling the necessity to approach and try to punish his landing is tolling on one's mindset.
But hey, it's possible crouch cancelling into grabs could totally work, right? I honestly don't know what to tell people when they ask for advice on the move, I say "uhh... hope they mess up the landing sometimes, know where they're going to land, hit him before frame 15 or avoid the first hitbox on frame 15 completely... I use Falco because REFLECTORS AND LASERS and personally preferring the air"

 

[Ulevo]

Why? He's kinda bad. A big fat dude with very limited defensive options, a mediocre grab game, and some decent but not spectacular specials. He gets totally **** on by a lot of top tiers for a lot of the same reasons Bowser does.

He's extremely heavy with some of the best range in the game, all of which comes off of good frame data. His moves have excellent properties, like tripping and breaking shields. His combo game is solid, he has no problems with KO's, he's fast for his size, his neutral game is good. He even has decent tournament results, vanilla and custom. Like, watch DKWill's tournament sets. If you can't understand how the character is good after that then you're honestly blind.

I'm not saying he's top tier, but saying he's bad is foolish.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

He's extremely heavy with some of the best range in the game, all of which comes off of good frame data. His moves have excellent properties, like tripping and breaking shields. His combo game is solid, he has no problems with KO's, he's fast for his size, his neutral game is good. He even has decent tournament results, vanilla and custom. Like, watch DKWill's tournament sets. If you can't understand how the character is good after that then you're honestly blind.

I'm not saying he's top tier, but saying he's bad is foolish.

DK has tools, my main problem is just how bad a lot of the top tier ****s on him. I get the feeling that at least ZSS and Shiek are really free. His disadvantage state is pretty bad as well, which is a problem. He's got some really unfortunate matchups. But okay, maybe I (and everyone else) am just sleeping on him. I'll go find some DKWill sets.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Look, does any of this stuff about Kong Cyclone matter? Even barring the patch maybe fixing it in a few days, are DKs winning tournaments? No, they're not. Because, even though the move is really, really good, it's attached to a kinda ****ty character. And on block, you put yourself in a positional disadvantage. DK really sucks at dealing with the space below him. Boss beat this. How'd he do it? I dunno, I haven't watched the video. However, I seriously doubt it was through some mystic space voodoo. He probably just outplayed him. With Luigi, no less. A character that it would seem should have some non-trivial problems dealing with this move. It's cheesy, and really strong, but we can figure out how to beat it.

True enough. It would still be healthier for the game were Kong Cyclone toned down and DK were buffed in other respects. As is this is not a good way to balance a character.

 

[Firefoxx]

Like here's a quick list of Falcon's stupidity:

1. Up air: almost twice the damage of Zero Suits, otherwise same landing lag and start up.
2. Forward Smash: has him step forward as the hitbox comes out like 1/5 stage length... legitimately doesn't make sense, he "teleports" forward too, funny to watch in slow motion.
3. Dash grab: almost a half stage length grab
4. Jab: ridiculously good, practically safe on shield, even wins against people holding shield to get pushed out for a "free punish" on every other multi jab... but falcon's finisher is almost as big as his forward smash.
5. Back Air. Guaranteed from ledge trumps (this is a smaller list than you'd think), Kills under 100%, safe on PERFECT SHIELD. 7 frames. Minimal landing lag. Sour spot scales ridiculously slow for an always hit-confirm follow up, auto cancels good too.
6. Up tilt. Why is Samus so unlucky?
7. Weight and mobility specs. Similar/better than Zero Suit Samus. Top tier weight. It's actually kinda obnoxious to see a character with this much weight, with this much range, and this little punishment room with such diversity in both the air and ground. Imagine if Brawl Snake had aerial mobility and his aerials weren't guaranteed DEATH to land with. His smash4 aerials have similar damage and power to them as Snake's did too.
8. Down Tilt... huge, set ups tech chases, also is a kill move. Safe-ish on block.
9. Down Air: definitely the most viable spike in the game. Unlike most other character's spikes, his comes out fast and isn't restricted to just a small area directly below the character. His horizontal hit of it kills too, unlike nearly all other characters who "sour spot" their spikes.
10. Forward Throw, Back Throw and Up Throw are all viable kill throws.

Now let's look at the moves that aren't so noticeably great but are still usable/some of the better moves in the game:
Forward Tilt (tech chase set ups/range is massive), Side-B (raptor), Up Smash (20% and not that unsafe), Down Smash (safe on shield, even the front hit), Neutral Air, Down Throw (not the guaranteed set ups ala Diddy/Luigi, thank ****ing god, this character doesn't need more brain dead quips to his kit) but still nearly always leading into his up air.

In all of this talk of Falcon silliness you forgot to even mention dash attack, which also has a massive hitbox that lets him safely clash with some projectiles. It seems underwhelming relative to the rest of his kit, but its easily one of the best dash attacks in the game.

Knee is pretty absurd too. Get the sweetspot? 19% damage and one of the best KO moves in the game. Get the sourspot? A sex-kick-ish move that causes enough hitstun to prevent most attempts to punish. It not only autocancels off a full-hop, the end lag is fast enough that you can throw out a nair or uair before you land.

...and that's all his normals accounted for! Just press A and rest easy in your knowledge that the good Captain is about to throw out some serious bull****!

His normals are just obscene and they super need to be addressed. (And I should know, all that silliness has been saving my ass since October.)

 

[Blobface]

Isn't Falcon's disadvantage pretty crap though? His only attacks that hit below him are D-air and Falcon Kick.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Falcon's still fair because his disadvantaged state sucks and he's easy to gimp. He's not lighting up the tourney scene because the margin for error with him is pretty small compared to the top tiers. Falcon honestly feels just right to me and should be left alone. In general I think Falcon's a good benchmark for how strong a Smash 4 character should be, with great strengths but significant weaknesses you need to play around.

 

[Firefoxx]

His disadvantaged state is bad. But he's so heavy he can afford to take on that damage (more Rage? yes please!) And his recovery isn't great, but its also not Doc level bad. His second jump is good and Dive goes pretty damn far. It's one dimensional, but its not exactly a free gimp. I agree that the idea of Falcon is a balanced one, but the reality of Falcon is kind of silly. Though it is true that Falcon isn't easy to play and isn't dominating tournaments. (Though Fatality won a pretty good sized local yesterday or last weekend and Max just did pretty well at Spring Fighter and keeps looking better and better every week)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well then, ima just assume now that everytime seagull come in here a **** storm will occur due to pettyness on both sides.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Doesn't Boss... not practice Smash 4? Or own a copy?

If your opponent doesn't understand proper countertactics, you should spam Cyclone (or any move) until they learn.

He doesn't practice? Really? That's unbelievable

Please. Stop.

Kong Cyclone, while it may not be broken, is abusive. Diddy and Sheik's FAirs are abusive. Mac and Falcon's jabs are abusive. Mega Man's pellets and Sheik's needles are abusive AF. People have adapted, the correct counterplay to a spaced Sheik FAir on block is to not try and punish because you can't. Does that make it less abusive? Kong cyclone can go to the platform, but DK can also go to the ledge. If the worst thing that happens on a whiffed cyclone is you end up on a platform with no end lag, you have to realize that the risk/reward is in DK's favor.

You act as if the move will somehow be less good once you know how it works. Joe is right in that DK gains a SUPER ARMORED recovery. You can't ledge trump, because of the windbox, and if DK decides to go on stage, it autocancels. What's the counterplay here? Go attack him before his f15 super armor kicks in? Let's not underestimate how far away DK can start this move and end it at the ledge.

Kong Cyclone is good. Really good. And you know what? It'll probably get better as development for the move goes forward. Same with a lot of alternate specials (HSB in particular as it basically makes it so your opponent can never air dodge, like Falcon's knee).

Diddy's downthrow>up air can be DI'd. And if you miss the DI? You die. And if you DI it? You are using poor DI for Diddy's back throw, which can kill. Counterplays exist, but that doesn't make it disappear. It's still good. The NUMBERS are good and will always be good unless it gets patched.

You want people to adapt? Fine. But you could also be asked to adapt to the vanilla metagame. So I'd use that argument carefully.

Honestly, you make the pro-customs side look really ****ing annoying and ignorant and makes me want to be pro-vanilla.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at when I said that the move wasn't game breaking, but it was good enough to fill DK's toolbox and more. It's just another abusive move in the arsenal of moves that some aforementioned characters have. This one is young, and ridiculously annoying to deal with.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Well then, ima just assume now that everytime seagull come in here a **** storm will occur due to pettyness on both sides.

"Just adapt"

He doesn't practice? Really? That's unbelievable


Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at when I said that the move wasn't game breaking, but it was good enough to fill DK's toolbox and more. It's just another abusive move in the arsenal of moves that some aforementioned characters have. This one is young, and ridiculously annoying to deal with.

That's a lie. Boss plays with ChuDat all the time. He lives in VA, but pretty much bums around people's houses in MD frequently and plays with people who own Wii U's/Wii's/Cubes.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Anecdotes or comparisons of any scale are hyperbole if you want to begrudgingly deny people's notions.
The reality is that a majority of the active tournament scene are supporting everything as it is, "customs on and off, let's rock it" type of perspective, this is an amazing thing to me. Trashy rhetoric with an antagonistic attitude is caustic, "Look at this crap anti-customs meta, trying to think they're real" this is the disrespect that I would be infracting. Being extreme on any edge of the spectrum is exactly what the community doesn't need to keep it sane and flourishing.

The book definition of "scrub" has changed since 2008. This notion of healthy design has come to far outweigh "playing to win" with the "way the game was intended". We expect a balanced game and that is one we've been mostly given. People have a right to believe that a game with "less problems" is better than one otherwise. I'm pretty firmly in that boat.

Polarising or degenerative gameplay moves don't really add to the game. While I think Seagull could've played better/smarter, his points on it's lack of counterplay aren't really wrong either. Grabs (kinda luck to succeed with?) or shielding forever is your best bet. Feeling the necessity to approach and try to punish his landing is tolling on one's mindset.
But hey, it's possible crouch cancelling into grabs could totally work, right? I honestly don't know what to tell people when they ask for advice on the move, I say "uhh... hope they mess up the landing sometimes, know where they're going to land, hit him before frame 15 or avoid the first hitbox on frame 15 completely... I use Falco because REFLECTORS AND LASERS and personally preferring the air"

I really don't believe this game to be balanced. If they was no patch coming then within a year diddy would've killed the game. The biggest problem being that there's no real counter to diddy. The problem with shiek is she works about 3 times as hard for half the results. Most players would eventually switch to diddy unless they're die hard character loyalist. i really think diddy is worse than MK.

 

[Firefoxx]

Its been like over a month since most places started switching over to customs, and in that time we've seen DK's continue to go very very deep in tournaments largely on the merits of Kong Cyclone. The idea that people just need more time to adapt loses more and more steam every week (and sounds a lot like what many in this thread were saying about Diddy back in December).

Its awesome that DK is viable now, more tournament viable characters is always a good thing! But it sucks that Kong Cyclone, and just Kong Cyclone, is how he had to get there.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I really don't believe this game to be balanced. If they was no patch coming then within a year diddy would've killed the game. The biggest problem being that there's no real counter to diddy. The problem with shiek is she works about 3 times as hard for half the results. Most players would eventually switch to diddy unless they're die hard character loyalist. i really think diddy is worse than MK.

Please explain how Diddy is a bigger problem than Brawl MK. MK had no weaknesses and had multiple 80:20 matchups with bottom tiers. Diddy at least has one somewhat exploitable weakness in that his recovery is easily gimped once he has to use his Rocketbarrels, and I can assure you nobody has a 20:80 MU with him. What is your reasoning?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

"Just adapt"

Lel im not hating on you my friend.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Please explain how Diddy is a bigger problem than Brawl MK. MK had no weaknesses and had multiple 80:20 matchups with bottom tiers. Diddy at least has one somewhat exploitable weakness in that his recovery is easily gimped once he has to use his Rocketbarrels, and I can assure you nobody has a 20:80 MU with him. What is your reasoning?

I disagree that no one has a 2-8 MU with diddy. There's times when you can exploit Diddys recovery and times when you can't.

 

[PUK]

I think the game is still à bit new to have sure match up.
For exemple falcon vs Zelda was considered really bad at the beginning, but not so much now.
Zelda vs Mac was seen bad, then good, and currently pretty bad.
So any match up like 8-2 is currently really suspect for me. But i admit they could exist, because MK vs LM exists.

 

[Jams.]

Please explain how Diddy is a bigger problem than Brawl MK. MK had no weaknesses and had multiple 80:20 matchups with bottom tiers. Diddy at least has one somewhat exploitable weakness in that his recovery is easily gimped once he has to use his Rocketbarrels, and I can assure you nobody has a 20:80 MU with him. What is your reasoning?

Brawl MK is the 5th lightest character, and has awful horizontal aerial mobility. It's not much, but "Diddy can be gimped when he uses upb" isn't much either.

Also, most of the top tiers in Brawl had 80:20s versus the bottom tiers. Brawl's bottom tiers sucked or were hugely exploitable.

 

[meleebrawler]

I disagree that no one has a 2-8 MU with diddy. There's times when you can exploit Diddys recovery and times when you can't.

So if you can't exploit RocketBarrel weakness you automatically lose vs. Diddy?

I
So any match up like 8-2 is currently really suspect for me. But i admit they could exist, because MK vs LM exists.

I doubt even that matchup is 8-2. Meta Knight has to give respect to Mac in neutral and only starts
***pping on him once he gets him into the air. 8-2 suggests that there's very little the losing character
can do in ANY situation of the fight to contest the other.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

ITT: we pretend to already have in depth experience and knowledge of 50 ****ing match ups.

 

[Sinister Slush]

51 MU's and each character having 10+ custom set ups, so technically 200+ characters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So if you can't exploit RocketBarrel weakness you automatically lose vs. Diddy?



I doubt even that matchup is 8-2. Meta Knight has to give respect to Mac in neutral and only starts
***pping on him once he gets him into the air. 8-2 suggests that there's very little the losing character
can do in ANY situation of the fight to contest the other.

How in the hell did you come to that conclusion from what I said?

 

[ZeldaMaster]

I can't wait until the balance patch this wednesday. WHich characters do you guys think are in need of a definite buff? I think that could all use some serious buffs

 

[Gunla]

I can't wait until the balance patch this wednesday. WHich characters do you guys think are in need of a definite buff? I think that could all use some serious buffs

Please keep speculation on the upcoming patch to the other boards until the patch is live.

 

[Macedonian]

edit, patch speculation, sorry i just saw you said not to post it here