Character Competitive Impressions

[Seagull Joe]

There have been a few players who have done a really good job of showing how to get around Kong Cyclone though. The main one that comes to mind that has already hit youtube is this gem:

I've seen more extreme cases of Kong Cyclone just getting shut down (this set was generally competitive, just largely showed Kong Cyclone losing a lot as the set went), but it would be a lot of work to dig through stream archives to find them. I do see players just plain beat Kong Cyclone by challenging it head on though, and it's really hard for me to see it as actually very overpowering. It's clearly a good move, but I think much like Timber Counter the power of the move is greatly exaggerated.

Will didn't even try to abuse Kong Cyclone like Average Joe does. He approached with baited jabs and bairs more then anything.

Seriously chill. I freaking hate the hostile ****storm this place is becoming.

They can't help being bad dude. It's a darn shame.

 

[Nu~]

Umm, as a Mega Man main, I have to say you may be underestimating exactly what level some characters have to go to "micromanage".

Mega Man has seven projectiles to decide upon: Pellets, Blades, Crash Bomb, Mega Buster, Air Shot, Hard Knuckle, and Leaf Shield. However, these are all considered nine moves out of his entire moveset (pellets being neutral, side, and NAir). As involved as each of them may be, it's still not too different from any other character choosing their proper move in the proper situation. Mega Man's most involved move is Metal Blades in that it can be used as an item in various ways. That right there is a sort of micromanagement, but honestly it's not all that complex in comparison to certain other characters.

See, Olimar has four actions strongly dedicated towards managing his pikmin. However it doesn't end there. Olimar's micromanagement comes from all six of his pikmin causing his smashes, aerials, and throws to act differently and him having to intentionally cycle through them in order to perform optimally. It goes beyond "right move for the right moment".

Pac-Man has one primary special that requires micromanagement. But his Fruit special is still a bit complex in that he can call upon eight different projectiles from a single special, all of them behaving quite differently. In a way, Pac-Man has more moves than most characters. Then you add Fire Hydrant into the mix for even more shenanigans... Oh, and his custom neutrals too, meaning Pac-Man players get to experiment with three sets of eight projectiles - 24 in all.

So yeah, Mega Man has a little bit of micromanagement in his Metal Blade and projectile game, but I think it's a bit more prevalent in a character like Pac-Man, and it's a serious part of Olimar's game. There's also Rosalina who has to keep Luma in mind, Robin's tome spells, Duck Hunt Dog's can manipulation...

As someone who has dropped mega man due to the amount of micromanagement he has to do,
I feel that you are underestimating the amount of patience and precision that playing mega man requires you to go through.

Mega Man's micromanagement lies in his pellet game and "chip by chip" game plan. You continuously keep the opponent out by managing your pellets in the correct way to create an effective wall.
Mega Man's game plan revolves around keeping the game state in nuetral while he chips away at the opponent. Metal blade is the go to move to help your approach and keep the opponent in mid range, but mega man's overall game plan is the same.

Once you go in for the kill, you still have to be extremely patient and precise.

You either wait for an opponent to make a mistake so you can Utilt them, you have to make a hard read to hit them with your smash attacks, or get a properly spaced bair (difficult to land on the ground without getting punished)

 

[Teshie U]

I do wonder if 1/4 if a second is too quick to react properly to, why does everyone act like tether grabs can be spotdodged on reaction.

@ Seagull Joe , its a matter of abusing whatever your opponent will let you get away with. DKWill probably has more experience getting punished for throwing it out at the wrong times.

If you are letting average joe feel safe doing it, of course he is going to do it to you every 5 seconds. Same thing goes for spindash. You know spindash can be punished, but if you fought someone that didn't ever punish it, would you just be merciful about it and not use spindash over and over?

 

[Nairo]

Just want to say that I said ZSS is in top 10 not top 15 but just not top 3 tho like some people may think. (IMO) Small characters can be pretty annoying for her to fight. She has a lot of stuff she can pull off but if you can't land a grab, dsmash, nair or neutral B it can be hard to get something going for her. (Doesn't mean she can't win vs X character, a few airdodge reads and you can be done for lolol)

 

[Seagull Joe]

I do wonder if 1/4 if a second is too quick to react properly to, why does everyone act like tether grabs can be spotdodged on reaction.

@ Seagull Joe , its a matter of abusing whatever your opponent will let you get away with. DKWill probably has more experience getting punished for throwing it out at the wrong times.

If you are letting average joe feel safe doing it, of course he is going to do it to you every 5 seconds. Same thing goes for spindash. You know spindash can be punished, but if you fought someone that didn't ever punish it, would you just be merciful about it and not use spindash over and over?

Spindash isn't a brawl tornado with super armor and a windbox like Kong Cyclone is. FEAR THE DONG.

 

[kj22]

Challenging ZSS Down-B isn't hard if you're well positioned. Virtually any lingering hitbox works and will catch her at the end of her jump arc. The main catch is being able to follow its movement or bait it.

Easier said then done, zss can adjust where she lands/kicks or footstools/does nothing, and not every character has the tools/wants challenge it. The risk/reward isn't worth it in many cases.

In brawl, multihit aerial moves like Sonic's fair could beat out mks glide attack. However, if you mess up, you eat a pretty powerful attack and you're now being juggled by Mk...not always worth going for just because you can (risk/reward)

 

[David Viran]

Just want to say that I said ZSS is in top 10 not top 15 but just not top 3 tho like some people may think. (IMO) Small characters can be pretty annoying for her to fight. She has a lot of stuff she can pull off but if you can't land a grab, dsmash, nair or neutral B it can be hard to get something going for her. (Doesn't mean she can't win vs X character, a few airdodge reads and you can be done for lolol)

That's why I consider her a momentum based character.

 

[Shaya]

Individual characters have tools to deal with Kong Cyclone... hooray?

WiiFit's Up-B has CRAZY priority. I know this from experience of that wtf moment when Game & Watch's Up-B loses to something. Do you know how many things G&W's Up-B loses to? Like... nothing that i've seen in this game thus far bar wii fit's up-b.

Falco can throw long range transcended projectiles at DK all day from a safe distance, as can Sheik. Kong Cyclone doesn't help him at all if he has to approach. The main frustration is what comes from the chip damage/stage positioning that move forces if you approach DK.

---

ZSS over time only has to figure out a means of overcoming shields whilst maintaining strong stage position and neutral stance. It's really the only thing holding her back and her kit has all sorts of things to push her forward. ZSS players weren't even zairing like a month ago.

16 frame grab is pretty reactable, especially with anticipation.

15 frames is definitely hard for most characters to deal with against DK due to his range/walling out type of play style and that it travels. The mindset difference is pretty big towards it too, a player thinking Kong Cyclone is thinking "can't jump, can't roll, can't dodge, can't attack, must react at the right time, whoops don't get tilted or baired or down-b; as low as 3 frame punish window q_q". While a tether grab like ZSS is "be in the safe-ish distance position, don't act out unless you know it's safe to, shielding is very low risk, react to movement with a dodge or jump and voila; 40-odd frame punish window"

 

[Teshie U]

I think you'd be able to better prove your point if you went to one of these events and abused it with your superior mind and won.

If you just go and lose to it, everyone is just going to say you are bad.

 

[Project Quarantine]

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

I know this is late but i didnt see it. This character needs rep.

Elthunder is a menace everywhere, and his spacing game is really benifitted by stage tilts. If you ever play a robin, always ban lylat.

 

[thehard]

I wonder if any player has seriously considered picking up DK for his customs

I don't mean this as ammunition for an argument, but I can only think of the two previously mentioned Kong mains that have major exposure.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Will didn't even try to abuse Kong Cyclone like Average Joe does. He approached with baited jabs and bairs more then anything.

They can't help being bad dude. It's a darn shame.

DK Will is to my knowledge the best DK player; it's only natural he'll use higher level tactics. He could spam Kong Cyclone more, but it seems reasonable to trust his judgments on good tactics and what's important is to look at what happens when he actually does use it (sometimes he hits, sometimes he gets punished, all around it seems balanced). I actually don't know of a lot of other DKs who really take the character as far as he can go and who have extensive documentation of their play on easily accessible video which limits how much I can show. I do, however, have a set that shows Kong Cyclone being rendered almost completely ineffective:

Be sure to check games 3 and 4 of this set in particular; games one and two aren't really very good games for several reasons. In games 3 and 4 of this set, we see Kong Cyclone pulled way back to the point that DK Will is forced off it as any kind of a primary tactic.

Also, @ Shaya , I was not posting that to suggest that video of Numbers challenging Kong Cyclone with Wii Fit Trainer as a suggestion it was a character specific tool that made that work. He did use Wii Fit Trainer's good moves extensively (Weighted Header was a much bigger deal than Jumbo Hoops IMO), but that's just a part of playing the game to use your character's good moves to improve your winning chances. Diddy, as shown above, doesn't have any character specific things to shut down Kong Cyclone other than being a good character, and he does it very well. I actually would be surprised if there existed any character in the whole cast who couldn't deal with this, but given that there are only a few DKs really showing what he's made of and a relative handful of players who have put in the time to figure out the holes in Kong Cyclone (who have also run into those DKs in bracket!) I'm not going to be able to produce 51 videos of every character effectively combating Kong Cyclone. I hope the principle of how it can be done is clear enough and that people can extrapolate from what they've seen to figure out what any arbitrary character can do.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Didn't Boss just 3-0 Average Joe's Cyclone DK yesterday? He was struggling in their finals set and then he adapted and crushed him in grand finals. Go figure.

 

[thehard]

Reminds me of Custom Villager all over again: the most annoying, spammy/one-track-mind playstyle is likely not the most optimal, but it will stomp unfamiliar/inexperienced players all the same.

 

[Seagull Joe]

DK Will is to my knowledge the best DK player; it's only natural he'll use higher level tactics. He could spam Kong Cyclone more, but it seems reasonable to trust his judgments on good tactics and what's important is to look at what happens when he actually does use it (sometimes he hits, sometimes he gets punished, all around it seems balanced). I actually don't know of a lot of other DKs who really take the character as far as he can go and who have extensive documentation of their play on easily accessible video which limits how much I can show. I do, however, have a set that shows Kong Cyclone being rendered almost completely ineffective:

Be sure to check games 3 and 4 of this set in particular; games one and two aren't really very good games for several reasons. In games 3 and 4 of this set, we see Kong Cyclone pulled way back to the point that DK Will is forced off it as any kind of a primary tactic.

Also, @ Shaya , I was not posting that to suggest that video of Numbers challenging Kong Cyclone with Wii Fit Trainer as a suggestion it was a character specific tool that made that work. He did use Wii Fit Trainer's good moves extensively (Weighted Header was a much bigger deal than Jumbo Hoops IMO), but that's just a part of playing the game to use your character's good moves to improve your winning chances. Diddy, as shown above, doesn't have any character specific things to shut down Kong Cyclone other than being a good character, and he does it very well. I actually would be surprised if there existed any character in the whole cast who couldn't deal with this, but given that there are only a few DKs really showing what he's made of and a relative handful of players who have put in the time to figure out the holes in Kong Cyclone (who have also run into those DKs in bracket!) I'm not going to be able to produce 51 videos of every character effectively combating Kong Cyclone. I hope the principle of how it can be done is clear enough and that people can extrapolate from what they've seen to figure out what any arbitrary character can do.

So the best character in the game won? Why is that a surprise? All this shows me is that those with projectiles should spam them when is far away because then he can't up b without losing on startup. The same concept would've applied to using tornado. It lost to everything on startup. What are characters without projectiles or an outward move without a hurtbox like 's down b supposed to do? Just lose?

Guess I'll just start YOLO springing when he's at the edge and tries to kong cyclone.

 

[Ffamran]

Can Ganondorf's Warlock Punch/Blade and Dark Fists "counter" Kong Cyclone? Just wondering. It would be one hell of a read, though.

 

[Shaya]

Also a tidbit about spin dash most people don't think about.
If he charges it to full, then ending it is laggy, you cannot shield cancel it. If a sonic is baited into holding it for that long you've reduced his options significantly, he is locked into commitment that you can capitalize on. The whole "oh sonic just sits there until you try something then let's it rip!" is only viable from ignorance (or really lacklustre mobility on the character you're using).
For example, as ZSS I can walk forward, know the charge is up and shoot a paralyzer, I'm either going to get a free punish or he moves and immediately jumps; this is really only an issue punishing on a stage like smashville where the moving platform gives him implicit extra safety as their rotation goes off stage + the height of it off the ground (in contrast BF platforms trap him). Hence what do you do? Ban/strike smashville. Spin dash is excessively easier to deal with off smashville, the fact every match Seagull plays is on smashville first and likely one or two other smashvilles afterwards is giving him an advantage he doesn't deserve to be freely given tbqh. Flaming Spindash in contrast could negate this counterplay due to invincibility, I'm not sure.

I hope I can say a similar thing about DK's cyclone in the near future~

 

[thehard]

If you don't have a projectile, you probably have a command grab or super armor of your own. If you don't have those, you probably have a great combo game. DK fears all of these attributes. A good amount of characters have 2 or more of these options.

Nairo, Dabuz, JohnNumbers, I think Vinnie?, Jtails and others have all defeated Will in custom sets. I agree with Ampharos that there are times where DK just looks pathetic trying to use it, when faced with someone who knows how to punish it.

And yeah, I think Ganon can reverse-Warlock Punch DK while he's trapped in the Cyclone.

 

[Smog Frog]

i remember someone saying that when ganon is transferred from the ground to the air the armor on his punch stays.

 

[Anomilus]

As someone who has dropped mega man due to the amount of micromanagement he has to do,
I feel that you are underestimating the amount of patience and precision that playing mega man requires you to go through.

Mega Man's micromanagement lies in his pellet game and "chip by chip" game plan. You continuously keep the opponent out by managing your pellets in the correct way to create an effective wall.
Mega Man's game plan revolves around keeping the game state in nuetral while he chips away at the opponent. Metal blade is the go to move to help your approach and keep the opponent in mid range, but mega man's overall game plan is the same.

Once you go in for the kill, you still have to be extremely patient and precise.

You either wait for an opponent to make a mistake so you can Utilt them, you have to make a hard read to hit them with your smash attacks, or get a properly spaced bair (difficult to land on the ground without getting punished)

See, I don't think of it as managing lemons (I prefer it over pellets really) as I think of lemons as one way of managing the opponent. I disagree about your idea of Mega Man's game plan. It's not that Mega Man wants to keep the game state in neutral. Rather, he wants to keep the opponent from changing the game state in their favor, or at all for that matter.

I've always seen the damage Mega Man accumulates on his opponent over time as more of a secondary effect of his actual game plan: disruption and conditioning. Mega Man's damage output is among the lowest in the game. As many hits he can inflict on an opponent, it takes only two or more good hits to undo that progress. But damage shouldn't matter all that much except to know when to start looking for KO opportunities.

Of course it takes patience and precision when you have a character who's best KO options don't arrive till high percentage and his strongest KO options require strong reads. But when it comes to micromanagement, I think about the player mentally organizing their character's capabilities mid-play. Mega Man definitely requires the user to approach matches differently, but his actual moveset is still rather straightforward. Again, the Metal Blades are the most managing Mega Man will have to do.

Meanwhile, Pac-Man always has to keep in mind what fruit he currently has stored and how and when to best put it to use. Olimar has to consider which Pikmin is next in line every time he uses them in an attack, be ready to replace ones that die, and toss away Pikmin to keep his recovery good. Robin has to keep in mind the use of his tomes (including the three Neutral B spells) and the Levin Sword to avoid entering a situation unprepared, or even to gain a useful projectile. Rosalina has to properly space and position Luma mid-match to get the best out of it while keeping it safe from retaliation. Shulk has to keep track of his Monado Arts use to have the optimal stance at almost any point.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If you don't have a projectile, you probably have a command grab or super armor of your own. If you don't have those, you probably have a great combo game. DK fears all of these attributes. A good amount of characters have 2 or more of these options.

Nairo, Dabuz, JohnNumbers, I think Vinnie?, Jtails and others have all defeated Will in custom sets. I agree with Ampharos that there are times where DK just looks pathetic trying to use it, when faced with someone who knows how to punish it.

And yeah, I think Ganon can reverse-Warlock Punch DK while he's trapped in the Cyclone.

All of those players use a character with a projectile.

 

[Teshie U]

Sonic is a projectile.

 

[Minordeth]

I'd be interested to see how Kong Cyclone fares against moves with heavy super armor, like Warlock Punch, Rock Smash, or anything Little Mac has. It would be the height of irony for such an abusable move to get abused by a borderline worthless move like WP.

 

[Blobface]

@everyone asking about Warlock Punch
Warlock Punch hard counters Kong Cyclone. The Super Armor stays when he gets pulled into the air, and an aerial Warlock Punch is just barely short of an instant kill.

 

[Minordeth]

@everyone asking about Warlock Punch
Warlock Punch hard counters Kong Cyclone. The Super Armor stays when he gets pulled into the air, and an aerial Warlock Punch is just barely short of an instant kill.

I had a feeling, but I don't have Kong Cyclone unlocked to lab it out. Thanks!

 

[Shaya]

All of those players use a character with a projectile.

Sonic specifically may not have viable or consistent means of dealing with such a move. One way to look at is, "too bad, pick up a secondary". Considering the option of non-customs events still exist though, opting to try to master a secondary to a competitive level to combat an otherwise still capable character due to an "optional move" is its own conundrum. If you mained DK in Brawl, you would go to the tournament that didn't have Dedede's infinite legal (Bum, NY/NJ, never traveled, was a consistent threat for the first few years of the game) than one where you're told to adapt to something you see as not "good" or "healthy" for the game.

I never once thought D3's infinites should be banned during the Brawl era, but to the me now, I would have rather a player like Bum to have never quit, iono.
Atomsk and Vex both were strong D3 mains who chose to never infinite their opponents, rules persisting or otherwise. Just like dapuffster not opting for 0/0 size Miis (anyone who's played as or against them knows they're pretty silly). A good player's judgement on what's not healthy for competition seems to always edge towards what's best, but sometimes the stakes or necessity negates that (e.g. M2K's livelihood required it), others revel in the "lame" or the "frustration" they see from others.

 

[Teshie U]

I'd be interested to see how Kong Cyclone fares against moves with heavy super armor, like Warlock Punch, Rock Smash, or anything Little Mac has. It would be the height of irony for such an abusable move to get abused by a borderline worthless move like WP.

No logical reason for those moves to do anything to it. He has armor, you have armor. You will both take damage. Super armor does not protect your from windboxes and you WILL get thrown around regardless. In fact, if your armor negates the final hit of cyclone, you might just get flung past DK.

Total frames of Kong Cyclone are less than the total frames of Warlock Punch by a good bit IIRC, no reason for a knowledgeable DK to use Cyclone once he saw you starting up a Warlock Punch.

I get the feeling cyclone will pull you up, hit you and autocancel into shield before the punch comes out, but I would be amused to see DK get his shield broken anyway.

 

[Minordeth]

No logical reason for those moves to do anything to it. He has armor, you have armor. You will both take damage. Super armor does not protect your from windboxes and you WILL get thrown around regardless. In fact, if your armor negates the final hit of cyclone, you might just get flung past DK.

Total frames of Kong Cyclone are less than the total frames of Warlock Punch by a good bit IIRC, no reason for a knowledgeable DK to use Cyclone once he saw you starting up a Warlock Punch.

I get the feeling cyclone will pull you up, hit you and autocancel into shield before the punch comes out, but I would be amused to see DK get his shield broken anyway.

Right, but things in practice turn out differently than in theory, occasionally. Hence, Blobface jumping in with, what I am assuming is, practical knowledge. Time to unlock Kong Cyclone and figure it out regardless.

ETA: Kong Cyclone trading hits with anything with Super Armor is a bad trade for DK. The two hits combined do what, 18%? If a WP or F-smash from Mac trades with either hit, it's no bueno.

 

[Blobface]

The total frames of Kong Cyclone are supposedly 67, WP is 71. I'm not sure what frame Cyclone auto cancels on, but the frame data in the Dk boards says it has 67 total frames.

 

[Lavani]

I'm not sure what frame Cyclone auto cancels on

For recovery moves that have "autocancels", it's "any time before the character enters helpless".

 

[Blobface]

For recovery moves that have "autocancels", it's "any time before the character enters helpless".

In other words, it hypothetically auto cancels the first frame DK has downward vertical momentum?

 

[HeavyLobster]

@everyone asking about Warlock Punch
Warlock Punch hard counters Kong Cyclone. The Super Armor stays when he gets pulled into the air, and an aerial Warlock Punch is just barely short of an instant kill.

Can you actually land Warlock Punch with any reliability against it? I've tried it and have a hard time making WP connect.

 

[Lavani]

In other words, it hypothetically auto cancels the first frame DK has downward vertical momentum?

Okay, I'll just take a stab at trying to explain what's actually happening with these sorts of recoveries:

Spoiler: gifs

Gif 1 lands earlier than gif 2, but has a little bit of landing lag (you can see the pose as he lands). This is because there's a fixed amount of animation that plays out regardless of being airborne or grounded; people call it an autocancel because it technically skips the move's real landing lag, but you'll still have variable grounded end lag depending on where in the move you land.

So the move's frames look something like this (rough estimate, I can't get a 60fps recording):

0-41f: Animating
42-67f: Able to land, but still animates through to frame 67.
68f+: Able to land, suffers landing lag.

I guess the tl;dr to your question is essentially yes, but he's going to be stuck in place for something in the ballpark of 15~20 frames for landing that early. For no landing lag he'd need to land at the very last possible frame before he enters helpess.

 

[Blobface]

It's not reliable at all (I'm going to estimate it'll only work for about 10-20% of attempts), but it's not about directly landing the move to begin with. It's about the threat of that happening. Despite it's low success rate, it will basically instantly kill DK if it hits, and for a heavy like DK, losing a stock at 5% is a big deal, especially considering how Kong Cyclone is nearly impossible to edgeguard.

Ganon's-super-purple-death-slap-Russian-roulette is all about fear

Edit: the post above was made while I wrote this. It appears that a WP is guaranteed if:

1. Ganon starts the WP at least 4 frames earlier
2. No wind box shenanigans throw Ganon away from DK

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's not reliable at all (I'm going to estimate it'll only work for about 10-20% of attempts), but it's not about directly landing the move to begin with. It's about the threat of that happening. Despite it's low success rate, it will basically instantly kill DK if it hits, and for a heavy like DK, losing a stock at 5% is a big deal, especially considering how Kong Cyclone is nearly impossible to edgeguard.

Ganon's-super-purple-death-slap-Russian-roulette is all about fear

So it's not a hard counter at all, just a gimmick where you hope it works while giving up free damage. Also you can't do it near the ledge or else you've got a good shot at getting blown off and SD'ing. Think I'll just stick with aerial Flame Choke so I can Ganoncide when the windbox causes Ganon to keep momentum, which itself is tough to time and probably not as good as just shielding like everyone else.

 

[Teshie U]

I don't think that kills at 5%. In any case, I personally prefer to just let him autocancel. I have a command grab and my godlike upsmash. DK being on a platform above me is perfectly fine with me.

 

[Blobface]

I don't think that kills at 5%. In any case, I personally prefer to just let him autocancel. I have a command grab and my godlike upsmash. DK being on a platform above me is perfectly fine with me.

It varies depending on Rage, but it might kill at 0%. Aerial Warlock Punch is even more powerful than reversed Warlock Punch (Aerial Reverse Warlock Punch is even stronger than that, not to say Aerial Warlock Punches are useful or anything). But to be perfectly honest, U-smash is all Ganon really needs for Kong Cyclone. You just can't beat the Can-can.

 

[Jams.]

Okay, I'll just take a stab at trying to explain what's actually happening with these sorts of recoveries:

Spoiler: gifs

Gif 1 lands earlier than gif 2, but has a little bit of landing lag (you can see the pose as he lands). This is because there's a fixed amount of animation that plays out regardless of being airborne or grounded; people call it an autocancel because it technically skips the move's real landing lag, but you'll still have variable grounded end lag depending on where in the move you land.

So the move's frames look something like this (rough estimate, I can't get a 60fps recording):

0-41f: Animating
42-67f: Able to land, but still animates through to frame 67.
68f+: Able to land, suffers landing lag.

I guess the tl;dr to your question is essentially yes, but he's going to be stuck in place for something in the ballpark of 15~20 frames for landing that early. For no landing lag he'd need to land at the very last possible frame before he enters helpess.

So Kong Cyclone's landing lag essentially operates the same way as Mach Tornado in Brawl. I guess Donkey Kong was tired of getting tornado spammed, and spent his time between games to mastering the art of tornado.

 

[NAKAT]

Just want to say that I said ZSS is in top 10 not top 15 but just not top 3 tho like some people may think. (IMO) Small characters can be pretty annoying for her to fight. She has a lot of stuff she can pull off but if you can't land a grab, dsmash, nair or neutral B it can be hard to get something going for her. (Doesn't mean she can't win vs X character, a few airdodge reads and you can be done for lolol)

You changed your mind?

My mistake if otherwise. Either way yea I don't think she is where people are placing her.

 

[Unknownkid]

Sonic specifically may not have viable or consistent means of dealing with such a move. One way to look at is, "too bad, pick up a secondary".

He doesn't have to switch to a secondary. Sonic can use F-air (because it is a multiple hits that last about 15 frames) while in the Cyclone and knock DK out before the 2nd Hit happens. In AA's video Ltails manage to Upair DKwill out of KC. Mind you, you have 5 frames to punish KC (after the Super Armor and Before the Attack) but he got DKwill.

Like what @ thehard said most characters have a way to challenge Kong Cyclone. Like all things, you need to go to lab and figure what works in your favor.

Can someone kindly present me a list of characters does not have multi-hit aerial/special or a command grab? I believe they will have the most trouble with KC.
I was going to list Little Mac but he can constantly Nair.

Also, Burning Spin Dash is not invincible. It clashes with specials move like Fireball, Boomerang, Water Shuriken, Homing Missile and straight off lose to Samus' Charge Shot. Thank you @ Lavani for making me go back to the Lab to test this out.