Character Competitive Impressions

[NAKAT]

Agreed. 7th seems accurate. 3rd means he is better then ZSS and Sonic. Toolkit wise I just don't see it.

Nairo and I actually think ZSS is top 15, but not top 10. People don't exploit her hard enough. I love fighting Nairo's ZSS. Then again it's our opinion so do not shoot me.

 

[kj22]

Nairo and I actually think ZSS is top 15, but not top 10. People don't exploit her hard enough. I love fighting Nairo's ZSS. Then again it's our opinion so do not shoot me.

What do you think her weaknesses/things that aren't exploited are?

 

[Cenizas]

Nairo and I actually think ZSS is top 15, but not top 10. People don't exploit her hard enough. I love fighting Nairo's ZSS. Then again it's our opinion so do not shoot me.

I won't.

Spoiler

How's Olimar doing? I haven't seen much representation from him. He seems to be rather good, yet lacks mains. Why is that? Do people think Olimar is too complex? Is it the community's stigma against defensive play, or is it something else?

 

[Nu~]

What do you think her weaknesses/things that aren't exploited are?

Terrible approach and nuetral game

 

[bc1910]

Nairo and I actually think ZSS is top 15, but not top 10. People don't exploit her hard enough. I love fighting Nairo's ZSS. Then again it's our opinion so do not shoot me.

Yes, exploit what? Exploit her how?

 

[David Viran]

Terrible approach and nuetral game

Terrible's a stretch.

 

[NAKAT]

What do you think her weaknesses/things that aren't exploited are?

Her recovery is never exploited. If you read down B and knock her out of it she can only side B or up B. Read either and gimp her for using them especially side B. I do it as Pikachu a lot!

Her paralyzer and dsmash animations have startup and are so recognizable that you can either avoid them or jump over them to hit her. They are actually hard to land. Getting shield grabbed is less apparent due to her having a tether. Her even attempting to throw out a grab read puts her in a situation where she can be heavily punished. It almost makes grabbing above 80% not smart.

Her approach options aren't as good as many thing and to be quite honest while her combo game into up B is devastating it can also bite her in the you know what haha. That is if she mistimes, spaces, or you DI out of it.


She is given too much respect. Nairo (Still my son) and Choco are just mad good.

She is also still a great character. Top 15 for sure. I could be proven wrong too!

 

[David Viran]

Her recovery is never exploited. If you read down B and knock her out of it she can only side B or up B. Read either and gimp her for using them especially side B. I do it as Pikachu a lot!

Her paralyzer and dsmash animations have startup and are so recognizable that you can either avoid them or jump over them to hit her. They are actually hard to land. Getting shield grabbed is less apparent due to her having a tether. Her even attempting to throw out a grab read puts her in a situation where she can be heavily punished. It almost makes grabbing above 80% not smart.

Her approach options aren't as good as many thing and to be quite honest while her combo game into up B is devastating it can also bite her in the you know what haha. That is if she mistimes, spaces, or you DI out of it.


She is given too much respect. Nairo (Still my son) and Choco are just mad good.

She is also still a great character. Top 15 for sure. I could be proven wrong too!

I can't agree with her recovery. Down b is only used to break momentum or if the opponent literally jumps off stage to hit her. Not to mention even without it you can do tether cancel shenanigans and she has the 3rd highest jump in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

I won't.

Spoiler

How's Olimar doing? I haven't seen much representation from him. He seems to be rather good, yet lacks mains. Why is that? Do people think Olimar is too complex? Is it the community's stigma against defensive play, or is it something else?

For Olimar, check out Dabuz aka Bunzy here, Logic, Soulimar, @Myran, and some others that I don't remember. Basically, check out the Olimar/Alph boards. Olimar is a character where you have to micromanage like Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, and Shulk - perhaps Rosalina too -, so that sets a bar where you have to understand a lot about him before you can take him to any serious fight. Olimar's not that beginner-friendly from the looks of it, but his size and power is something to note.

As for ZSS, did Officer Jenny come back to the scene? Her ZSS is really fluid, but feels a bit antsy.

 

[kj22]

Her recovery is never exploited. If you read down B and knock her out of it she can only side B or up B. Read either and gimp her for using them especially side B. I do it as Pikachu a lot!

Her paralyzer and dsmash animations have startup and are so recognizable that you can either avoid them or jump over them to hit her. They are actually hard to land. Getting shield grabbed is less apparent due to her having a tether. Her even attempting to throw out a grab read puts her in a situation where she can be heavily punished. It almost makes grabbing above 80% not smart.

Her approach options aren't as good as many thing and to be quite honest while her combo game into up B is devastating it can also bite her in the you know what haha. That is if she mistimes, spaces, or you DI out of it.


She is given too much respect. Nairo (Still my son) and Choco are just mad good.

She is also still a great character. Top 15 for sure. I could be proven wrong too!

hmm...I don't think reading down B is the issue most players have, it's figuring out how to challenge it: pretty sure only a disjoint/projectile will stop her, otherwise you're getting footstooled/kicked, and good ZSS's will not flip kick into you to give you a free punish when they can just go low-->airdodge zair.

Edgeguard her side B? How? She can grab the ledge from very far away, we're not all pikachu we can't just throw a T-jolt at her to intercept. Not many character's can challenge her recovery unless she messes up. Add on to that the fact that tether recoveries can't be trumped and she'll be getting back on stage for free most times.

I agree her approach options aren't great, she capitalizes on punishing you rather than straight up pressure. Baiting her laggy grab is good too, but again better/patient zss's won't dash grab knowing the risk.


Her tilts are very good and she's a juggle monster with up airs. Her up-b out of shield can be used as an anti-air/shoryuken type move as well, and at kill percent she can just face backwards and threaten with bair, at worst that move will trade with w/e you throughout and it's pretty safe on shield. Her mobility is also top notch (a common feature top tiers throughout the smash games share) and she has guaranteed follow-ups out of a throw.

Don't see her being out of top 10 with strengths like hers.

 

[Nu~]

Olimar is a character where you have to micromanage like Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, and Shulk - perhaps Rosalina too -, so that sets a bar where you have to

I think Mega Man would be the very definition of micromanagement in a character

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

hmm...I don't think reading down B is the issue most players have, it's figuring out how to challenge it: pretty sure only a disjoint/projectile will stop her, otherwise you're getting footstooled/kicked, and good ZSS's will not flip kick into you to give you a free punish when they can just go low-->airdodge zair.

Edgeguard her side B? How? She can grab the ledge from very far away, we're not all pikachu we can't just throw a T-jolt at her to intercept. Not many character's can challenge her recovery unless she messes up. Add on to that the fact that tether recoveries can't be trumped and she'll be getting back on stage for free most times.

I agree her approach options aren't great, she capitalizes on punishing you rather than straight up pressure. Baiting her laggy grab is good too, but again better/patient zss's won't dash grab knowing the risk.


Her tilts are very good and she's a juggle monster with up airs. Her up-b out of shield can be used as an anti-air/shoryuken type move as well, and at kill percent she can just face backwards and threaten with bair, at worst that move will trade with w/e you throughout and it's pretty safe on shield. Her mobility is also top notch (a common feature top tiers throughout the smash games share) and she has guaranteed follow-ups out of a throw.

Don't see her being out of top 10 with strengths like hers.

Yeah I find challenging her down B not worth at all. I also think her weakness lies in her grab game because of how slow it is. However if she does land it she gets a lot off of it much like falcon. Then there's her nair which is a good move (main approach option?)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, re: Diddy killing this game. Diddy has few (not no, just few) bad matchups, and doesn't really dominate the way other characters do. He's not capable of shutting down the neutral the way Shiek is, or abusing certain weight classes for easy 0-deaths like ZSS, or even Luigi's raw damage output. He's just got a very full toolbox and few exploitable weaknesses. But if he wasn't around, the meta would be different. How different? Well, you know how MK just shut down a lot of the cast in Brawl? Shiek is kind of like that. Her high speed makes it so that a lot of the cast just cannot contend in neutral at all. She's the character chock-full of damn near unwinnable matchups, not Diddy. Diddy is more like Evil Ryu - strongest character in the game, kinda silly in how good he is at killing, but he doesn't shut people out the way MK or Shiek does.

 

[David Viran]

Yeah I find challenging her down B not worth at all. I also think her weakness lies in her grab game because of how slow it is. However if she does land it she gets a lot off of it much like falcon. Then there's her nair which is a good move (main approach option?)

I honestly think Bair is better at approaching because it's safer.

@ NAKAT she has oos up b instead of grab. Frame 4 oos option that kills. Also I never see nairo hit confirm dsmash unless off a frame trap anyway.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah, re: Diddy killing this game. Diddy has few (not no, just few) bad matchups, and doesn't really dominate the way other characters do. He's not capable of shutting down the neutral the way Shiek is, or abusing certain weight classes for easy 0-deaths like ZSS, or even Luigi's raw damage output. He's just got a very full toolbox and few exploitable weaknesses. But if he wasn't around, the meta would be different. How different? Well, you know how MK just shut down a lot of the cast in Brawl? Shiek is kind of like that. Her high speed makes it so that a lot of the cast just cannot contend in neutral at all. She's the character chock-full of damn near unwinnable matchups, not Diddy. Diddy is more like Evil Ryu - strongest character in the game, kinda silly in how good he is at killing, but he doesn't shut people out the way MK or Shiek does.

Shiek has a bunch of unwinnable MU's such as? I think he shuts down a fair number of the cast. He has maybe 5 even MU'S at worse. Everything else is 6-4 in his favor. Neither shiek or MK has the ability to kill at 70 the way diddy does. While still retaining at an extremely fast moveset. All those characters you listed can't boast the same about kill potential. As for neutral diddy neutral is pretty good and because of diddy flip he can invalidate a lot of people's neutral. This of course isn't taking into account nanas and peanut gun and how quick the lil ******* is. Please stop it. Diddy is a ridiculous character the most ridiculous part of his is the people which defend him.

Also where are you cping diddy to?

@ David Viran @ I thought nair was safe? She also has zair which is pretty decent.

 

[David Viran]

Shiek has a bunch of unwinnable MU's such as? I think he shuts down a fair number of the cast. He has maybe 5 even MU'S at worse. Everything else is 6-4 in his favor. Neither shiek or MK has the ability to kill at 70 the way diddy does. While still retaining at an extremely fast moveset. All those characters you listed can't boast the same about kill potential. As for neutral diddy neutral is pretty good and because of diddy flip he can invalidate a lot of people's neutral. This of course isn't taking into account nanas and peanut gun and how quick the lil bastatd is. Please stop it. Diddy is a ridiculous character the most ridiculous part of his is the people which defend him.

Also where are you cping diddy to?

@ David Viran @ I thought nair was safe? She also has zair which is pretty decent.

Nair is safe but Bair is safer.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ZSS can def attack shields more safely then a good chunk of the cast. Spaced buttons on shields are a thing. Chipping away at your opponents shield is def a thing. Just can't get stupid or greedy and constantly try to push buttons on them otherwise you are put in disadvantage if they roll early.

 

[thehard]

Its been like over a month since most places started switching over to customs, and in that time we've seen DK's continue to go very very deep in tournaments largely on the merits of Kong Cyclone. The idea that people just need more time to adapt loses more and more steam every week (and sounds a lot like what many in this thread were saying about Diddy back in December).

Its awesome that DK is viable now, more tournament viable characters is always a good thing! But it sucks that Kong Cyclone, and just Kong Cyclone, is how he had to get there.

The only DK I can think of that's gone deep in tournaments with customs is Average Joe, and even then it's consistent with his last few weeks of customs-off placements too. DKWill places more or less the same he always has.

I believe the issue here is Average Joe has been one of the first to, for lack of a better word, "spam" Kong Cyclone in matches, and everyone has been mostly acquainted to strong but cautious usage of it thus far. So we will need to strike Battlefield investigate ways to stop "overuse" of the move.

Also, pulling the "all customs are bad because of these few dubiously balanced ones (or worse, because of these ones I simply don't like)" is and always has been silly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nair is safe but Bair is safer.

Ah I see thanks for the info.

Ummm I'd like to ask a question about ness. Am I the only one who doesn't think he's a top 15 character?

 

[A2ZOMG]

hmm...I don't think reading down B is the issue most players have, it's figuring out how to challenge it: pretty sure only a disjoint/projectile will stop her, otherwise you're getting footstooled/kicked, and good ZSS's will not flip kick into you to give you a free punish when they can just go low-->airdodge zair.

Challenging ZSS Down-B isn't hard if you're well positioned. Virtually any lingering hitbox works and will catch her at the end of her jump arc. The main catch is being able to follow its movement or bait it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Challenging ZSS Up-B isn't hard if you're well positioned. Virtually any lingering hitbox works and will catch her at the end of her jump arc. The main catch is being able to follow its movement or bait it.

He's talking about down B not up B unless you meant down B.

 

[A2ZOMG]

He's talking about down B not up B unless you meant down B.

Yeah that was a typo. I was actually talking ZSS Down-B.

 

[Unknownkid]

Terrible approach and nuetral game

If ZSS' approach and neutral game are terrible then Kirby's is an abomination.

I think Mega Man would be the very definition of micromanagement in a character

Megaman is more mircomanage than Olimar or Pac-Man? I like an explanation on this one.

The only reason we see Airbender Kong in Battlefield so much because his victim I mean opponents ban Lylat Cruise. I believe DK benefits more and more dangerous on LC than BF (you have two even leveled platforms to worry about rather than three).

 

[thehard]

The only reason we see Airbender Kong in Battlefield so much because his victim I mean opponents ban Lylat Cruise. I believe DK benefits more and more dangerous on LC than BF (you have two even leveled platforms to worry about rather than three).

Wouldn't the tilts throw off the landing lag cancel though (uneven platforms)?

 

[Nu~]

Megaman is more mircomanage than Olimar or Pac-Man? I like an explanation on this one.

Your pellet game must be on point to keep people out (or you get steamrolled in CQC), your damage output is among the lowest in the game, and every one of your kill moves requires precision to land and are punished heavily when missed.

 

[Smog Frog]

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

 

[Unknownkid]

Wouldn't the tilts throw off the landing lag cancel though (uneven platforms)?

Hmm... I guess you are right. Then I don't know why we see Custom DK mostly on Battlefield.

Your pellet game must be on point to keep people out (or you get steamrolled in CQC), your damage output is among the lowest in the game, and every one of your kill moves requires precision to land and are punished heavily when missed.

I see. Maybe Metal Blade usage should be included as well.

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

Apparently... .

 

[BBC7]

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

Come to think of it, I'd imagine does well on Lylat. He's not what I'd consider easy to gimp, Bair stagespiking really becomes a threat, and he can probably harass you if you're on the platform with Nair, Uair, and Up B. The main issue I can see is resorting to the platforms to avoid U-Smash, although I'd imagine that would just make the opponent predictable as a result.

 

[Cenizas]

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

Samus maybe? It's relatively similar to FD except for the low platforms that make her aerials a lot more useful without eating away at her zoning game too much. I don't believe the tether nor Screwattack really care about the tilting that much either. But hey, what do I know, I've only played the 3ds version.

 

[Lavani]

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

can abuse the tilting for Gordo shenanigans.

 

[Nu~]

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

Pacman can pick up all of his fruit by throwing them into the stage when it slants, (this sets up Z drop shenanigans)
and the platforms help him abuse his trampoline and hydrant traps.

 

[90007000]

Huh..... Lylat?

 

[Blobface]

Well as far as I know most characters hate Lylat because of the wonky ledges it has.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

can abuse the tilting for Gordo shenanigans.

God forbid if you recover low and hit the stage as it tilts, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Firefoxx]

The only DK I can think of that's gone deep in tournaments is Average Joe, and even then it's consistent with his last few weeks of customs-off placements too. DKWill places more or less the same he always has.

I believe the issue here is Average Joe has been one of the first to, for lack of a better word, "spam" Kong Cyclone in matches, and everyone has been mostly acquainted to strong but cautious usage of it thus far. So we will need to strike Battlefield investigate ways to stop "overuse" of the move.

Also, pulling the "all customs are bad because of these few dubiously balanced ones (or worse, because of these ones I simply don't like)" is and always has been silly.

Will was not doing this well with DK in the vanilla meta, that's why he picked up Sheik. But you are right, I should have only mentioned those two.

I really like customs, and don't want to see them banned, but I've just gotten tired of this idea that we constantly have to downplay how good these moves are. Its okay to both support something and admit that parts of that thing are pretty silly. There's a chance that there is no way to stop a good DK from "overusing" Kong Cyclone, just as there is a chance that people will eventually find the perfect counterplay to it. But stage striking ain't that counterplay. There is only one stage that doesn't allow DK to platform cancel the move at any point and DK players can just ban FD and that takes care of that. Yes, Battlefield should always be banned against customs DK but don't act like its the only stage that DK can spam on.

Edit: This reads kind of like an attack and that was not my intent. I apologize for that.

speaking of characters that actually like lylat cruise, apart from and , who would actually go to lylat for a counterpick?

Robin likes Lylat. If you Elwind to the outside of the engines and hold towards the ledge Robin will always snap to it. Plus Robin likes to be able to hide from approaches under the outside platforms, and they love platforms that can be uair sharked in general.

 

[thehard]

Will was not doing this well with DK in the vanilla meta, that's why he picked up Sheik. But you are right, I should have only mentioned those two.

I really like customs, and don't want to see them banned, but I've just gotten tired of this idea that we constantly have to downplay how good these moves are. Its okay to both support something and admit that parts of that thing are pretty silly. There's a chance that there is no way to stop a good DK from "overusing" Kong Cyclone, just as there is a chance that people will eventually find the perfect counterplay to it. But stage striking ain't that counterplay. There is only one stage that doesn't allow DK to platform cancel the move at any point and DK players can just ban FD and that takes care of that. Yes, Battlefield should always be banned against customs DK but don't act like its the only stage that DK can spam on.


Robin likes Lylat. If you Elwind to the outside of the engines and hold towards the ledge Robin will always snap to it. Plus Robin likes to be able to hide from approaches under the outside platforms, and they love platforms that can be uair sharked in general.

Actually, he still uses Sheik as a secondary, because even DK with Cyclone isn't up to snuff in certain matchups. http://smashboards.com/rankings/dkwill.116222/user Check out the Smash Attack #4 results, about the same for customs and no customs, taking into account certain variables like player count. Looks like Zee makes the biggest leap in a customs environment.

I wasn't talking to you specifically, btw, just a general point I wanted to make. I don't deny Cyclone is strong, I do deny that it breaks the game somehow or makes DK overpowered.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There have been a few players who have done a really good job of showing how to get around Kong Cyclone though. The main one that comes to mind that has already hit youtube is this gem:

I've seen more extreme cases of Kong Cyclone just getting shut down (this set was generally competitive, just largely showed Kong Cyclone losing a lot as the set went), but it would be a lot of work to dig through stream archives to find them. I do see players just plain beat Kong Cyclone by challenging it head on though, and it's really hard for me to see it as actually very overpowering. It's clearly a good move, but I think much like Timber Counter the power of the move is greatly exaggerated.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There have been a few players who have done a really good job of showing how to get around Kong Cyclone though. The main one that comes to mind that has already hit youtube is this gem:

I've seen more extreme cases of Kong Cyclone just getting shut down (this set was generally competitive, just largely showed Kong Cyclone losing a lot as the set went), but it would be a lot of work to dig through stream archives to find them. I do see players just plain beat Kong Cyclone by challenging it head on though, and it's really hard for me to see it as actually very overpowering. It's clearly a good move, but I think much like Timber Counter the power of the move is greatly exaggerated.

But AA, Kong Cyclone can't be beaten! What was the reason again from Seagull...

"15 frames is negligent because that's 1/4 of a second."

Oh right.

 

[Anomilus]

Your pellet game must be on point to keep people out (or you get steamrolled in CQC), your damage output is among the lowest in the game, and every one of your kill moves requires precision to land and are punished heavily when missed.

Umm, as a Mega Man main, I have to say you may be underestimating exactly what level some characters have to go to "micromanage".

Mega Man has seven projectiles to decide upon: Pellets, Blades, Crash Bomb, Mega Buster, Air Shot, Hard Knuckle, and Leaf Shield. However, these are all considered nine moves out of his entire moveset (pellets being neutral, side, and NAir). As involved as each of them may be, it's still not too different from any other character choosing their proper move in the proper situation. Mega Man's most involved move is Metal Blades in that it can be used as an item in various ways. That right there is a sort of micromanagement, but honestly it's not all that complex in comparison to certain other characters.

See, Olimar has four actions strongly dedicated towards managing his pikmin. However it doesn't end there. Olimar's micromanagement comes from all six of his pikmin causing his smashes, aerials, and throws to act differently and him having to intentionally cycle through them in order to perform optimally. It goes beyond "right move for the right moment".

Pac-Man has one primary special that requires micromanagement. But his Fruit special is still a bit complex in that he can call upon eight different projectiles from a single special, all of them behaving quite differently. In a way, Pac-Man has more moves than most characters. Then you add Fire Hydrant into the mix for even more shenanigans... Oh, and his custom neutrals too, meaning Pac-Man players get to experiment with three sets of eight projectiles - 24 in all.

So yeah, Mega Man has a little bit of micromanagement in his Metal Blade and projectile game, but I think it's a bit more prevalent in a character like Pac-Man, and it's a serious part of Olimar's game. There's also Rosalina who has to keep Luma in mind, Robin's tome spells, Duck Hunt Dog's can manipulation...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

But AA, Kong Cyclone can't be beaten! What was the reason again from Seagull...

"15 frames is negligent because that's 1/4 of a second."

Oh right.

Seriously chill. I freaking hate the hostile ****storm this place is becoming.