Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

I do think it's funny when people say "you only won because of N!" (N being a character, custom [or honestly any move], or stage) as if they expected you to use N in order to lose.

 

[Unknownkid]

Does anyone have the current Japanese tier list? I want to see something.

 

[Lavani]

Doesn't anyone have the current Japanese tier list? I want to see something.

Yo.

 

[Unknownkid]

Yo.

Thank you!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yo.

The placement of Villager and Wario confuses the heck out of me.

 

[PUK]

Wario deserves his place. Not the villager, pikachu, and a big part of the characters.

 

[Antonykun]

On the Subject of Villager being A rank Japan has Ranai, we don't

 

[Nobie]

One thing I want to know is, why is there such disagreement over who are the best and worst heavies?

Even putting aside initial overhype of Bowser, we see him going everywhere from C tier in the Shi-Gaming tier list to being called among the worst characters in the game by others. Donkey Kong is getting tournament results with and without customs, yet people including DK players are saying he can't be that good if he lost so much from Brawl. Charizard is either the best heavy in the game due to his great disadvantaged state and range, or is slow, cumbersome, and easily punished to the point of being garbage.

The only thing people seem to agree upon is Dedede not being so hot but that his game plan at least works in certain matchups.

 

[Luco]

Wasn't there a period where the 3DS and Wii U were unsynched?

To some extent they still are. Play on both versions and you'll notice a distinct lack of cooldown lag on Ftilt and less landing lag on Fair on 3DS as opposed to wii U.

I think there a minor changes for some characters still present other than this too.

 

[wedl!!]

To some extent they still are. Play on both versions and you'll notice a distinct lack of cooldown lag on Ftilt and less landing lag on Fair on 3DS as opposed to wii U.

I think there a minor changes for some characters still present other than this too.

thats really a thing? wtf

 

[Nabbitnator]

there are something's that aren't synced on the 3ds and Wii u versions.

 

[Blobface]

I doubt they're only going to use Japanese input for this patch. They endorsed Apex (an American tournament) after all.

 

[FullMoon]

If they end up nerfing Wario and Villager because of the Japanese tier list, oh man.

 

[bc1910]

I'm hoping they don't overreact and nerf Yoshi to the ground. I don't know what to expect from this patch, it's quite exciting. Although I'll be very disappointed if they just hand out nerfs to the top 5 and don't bother making any of the weaker characters better.

 

[Seagull Joe]

So out of curiosity, have you changed your mind about Average Joe, and will you refrain from assuming that someone else is winning off of cheese in the future?

Kong cyclone is ridiculous. Average Joe has won through sheer cheese (I don't like this terminology) with Kong cyclone, but he's also stepped up his fundamentals and mindset recently. I won't discredit that. His recent results with customs banned reflect that. I told him that myself.

 

[GeneralLedge]

If the big N were smart, they'd ignore tier lists and focus on the matches themselves. Some things, like Rosalina shutting down Pacman to the point of public Twitter salt, or Diddy's Hoo-hah getting such a strong audience reaction, are more likely to get looked into than "Japan says Wario is A tier".

Of course I haven't actually seen any JP tournies to go off of in saying that. Is there any outstanding Wario play wherein something outstanding enough to be looked into happened? If Wario is high-tier due to this outstanding thing then that would be cause to look into it. if Wario is high-tier because he's a well-rounded character, then that's really more the fault of all the other characters not being as versatile, which is what should logically be looked into.

I'm anticipating the most outstanding factors being hack-sawed, and the tier lists, if ever referenced, being used as a 'who could stand to be given some tiny changes?' guide. Here's hoping Marth/Lucina and Mii Sword get some love.

 

[Balgorxz]

I doubt they're only going to use Japanese input for this patch. They endorsed Apex (an American tournament) after all.

last patch was 100% japanese tier based, were diddy was like D tier at that time and greninja like A.

 

[Flamecircle]

Kong cyclone is ridiculous. Average Joe has won through sheer cheese (I don't like this terminology) with Kong cyclone, but he's also stepped up his fundamentals and mindset recently. I won't discredit that. His recent results with customs banned reflect that. I told him that myself.

I guess this is fair, given your point of view. However, where is the line of cheese? Is it just almost unpunishable free moves, like jumbo hoops and sonic's spin dash?


Anyway, flavor of the moment- http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/31ykfn/zeros_brawler_mii_vs_m2ks_standard_diddy/

Apparently M2K thinks Brawler is OP, but in this case he actually played as the character to come to the conclusion. Thoughts?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Someone beat him with Mii Sword, asap.

 

[HeroMystic]

>M2K
-Customs Villager is OP
-Ness is Top Tier
-Mii Brawler is OP

Anything I missed?

 

[Superbat]

M2k probably thinks olimar is OP too after Dabuz beat him in Apex. @ Nobie lol im stupid.

 

[Nobie]

M2k probably thinks rosalina is OP too after Dabuz beat him in Apex. lol

Dabuz beat him with Olimar.

 

[Unknownkid]

I guess this is fair, given your point of view. However, where is the line of cheese? Is it just almost unpunishable free moves, like jumbo hoops and sonic's spin dash?


Anyway, flavor of the moment- http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/31ykfn/zeros_brawler_mii_vs_m2ks_standard_diddy/

Apparently M2K thinks Brawler is OP, but in this case he actually played as the character to come to the conclusion. Thoughts?

I was watching the stream last night. He was getting rekt by Zero's Diddy (but who isn't). Brawler is strong and one of the top tiers but not overpower. Like all things, you just need to know what to do and survive to 80%.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I guess this is fair, given your point of view. However, where is the line of cheese? Is it just almost unpunishable free moves, like jumbo hoops and sonic's spin dash?


Anyway, flavor of the moment- http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/31ykfn/zeros_brawler_mii_vs_m2ks_standard_diddy/

Apparently M2K thinks Brawler is OP, but in this case he actually played as the character to come to the conclusion. Thoughts?

People are **** vs spindash. It loses to ANY lasting hitbox, projectile, or tether pivot grab. Like wut...? It hasn't changed since brawl as far as I know. In brawl, I beat out spindash with 's laser, retreating fair, nair, bair, etc...In PM I've beaten it with 's Nair (In place even) and bananas.

Spindash doesn't shield stab easily and there is literally no profit to a spindashing into a shield. All they can do is stop, up b, or jump after hitting a shield. All punishable options. Stopping puts in some lag. Jumping puts him above you. Up b forces to have to land (And he only has options to attack, nothing/drift, or airdodge so you can follow him).

To give you some perspective, I took 6wx to game 3 back in December the only time we ever played with my 2 week old. I just used Nair and fireballs to beat out spindash. He won the set because I CP'd him to delfino game 3 as (A bad stage for , especially vs ). Spindash is definitely HIGHLY beatable.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Yeah Gyro stops spin dash cold and both lasers can hit Sonic out of it. The problem is more with timing. I've even pivot grabbed Sonic out of spin dash, and R.O.B.'s grab range is really sh**ty.

 

[BSP]

Like wut...? It hasn't changed since brawl as far as I know.

It's harder to grab him out of it for sure. With Mario in Brawl, I could easily standing and pivot grab Sonic out of spindash. I've yet to accomplish it in this game.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It's harder to grab him out of it for sure. With Mario in Brawl, I could easily standing and pivot grab Sonic out of spindash. I've yet to accomplish it in this game.

It's only harder to grab because grabs have no armor. Just use Nair or fireball instead. I could name a way to beat it with likely every character in the game. People need to stop being negligent and johning about things that are beatable. Kong Cyclone has a windbox and super armor. It's not the easiest thing to punish even when you know it's coming. Spindash is a giant moving hitbox that loses out to everything or forces to simply stop moving.

 

[Flamecircle]

Seagull, point on the spindash, though a lot of characters have a hard time punishing it, especially when you never need to commit to it and can just jump out.

I'm not an expert on the Cyclone, but apparently there are also a lot of moves that can punish it too. I feel it may be strong, but probably not stupid, depending on how it's adapted to in the future.


On Brawler- The difference here is that m2k actually played brawler and said he was overpowered instead of just lose to him. I believe there's some merit there.

Another thing is that Brawler MIGHT become overpowered, if balance patches ignore Miis. I think they might due to how bothersome it would be to do. Well, I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

One thing I want to know is, why is there such disagreement over who are the best and worst heavies?

Even putting aside initial overhype of Bowser, we see him going everywhere from C tier in the Shi-Gaming tier list to being called among the worst characters in the game by others. Donkey Kong is getting tournament results with and without customs, yet people including DK players are saying he can't be that good if he lost so much from Brawl. Charizard is either the best heavy in the game due to his great disadvantaged state and range, or is slow, cumbersome, and easily punished to the point of being garbage.

The only thing people seem to agree upon is Dedede not being so hot but that his game plan at least works in certain matchups.

First we have to consider who to include in the pure heavyweight category, which IMO is everyone above Link, who is mid-heavy.

That leaves R.O.B., Wario, Samus, Bowser Jr., Ike, Ganondorf, Charizard, Bowser, DK, and Dedede.

Of these, tournament results suggest Wario is the best heavyweight and Charizard is the worst. I have an opinionated heavies "tier list". It assumes a metagame where only they are available:

Top:
Wario

High:
R.O.B.
Ganondorf
Bowser
Ike
Bowser Jr.

Mid:
Samus
Donkey Kong
D3
Charizard

Don't have a "low" or "bottom" because no heavy really gets destroyed by another. For those confused by Ganon, he actually has the tools to deal with Wario and R.O.B. and does well against the rest of the heavies, being able to overpower and safely edgeguard them. Bowser Jr. is the only heavy with substantial combos and edge traps, only lacking reward from grabs.

 

[Djent]

Kong cyclone is ridiculous. Average Joe has won through sheer cheese (I don't like this terminology) with Kong cyclone, but he's also stepped up his fundamentals and mindset recently. I won't discredit that. His recent results with customs banned reflect that. I told him that myself.

Good, I'm happy to hear that.

People are **** vs spindash. It loses to ANY lasting hitbox, projectile, or tether pivot grab. Like wut...? It hasn't changed since brawl as far as I know. In brawl, I beat out spindash with 's laser, retreating fair, nair, bair, etc...In PM I've beaten it with 's Nair (In place even) and bananas.

Spindash doesn't shield stab easily and there is literally no profit to a spindashing into a shield. All they can do is stop, up b, or jump after hitting a shield. All punishable options. Stopping puts in some lag. Jumping puts him above you. Up b forces to have to land (And he only has options to attack, nothing/drift, or airdodge so you can follow him).

See, this is interesting. I've been noticing the same thing with Super Speed, which is functionally similar in some ways. It's a great move until your opponent realizes they can wait -> button. Basically, playing the same game the SD/SS user is. Which makes the game slow and boring, but very winnable.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

First we have to consider who to include in the pure heavyweight category, which IMO is everyone above Link, who is mid-heavy.

That leaves R.O.B., Wario, Samus, Bowser Jr., Ike, Ganondorf, Charizard, Bowser, DK, and Dedede.

Of these, tournament results suggest Wario is the best heavyweight and Charizard is the worst. I have an opinionated heavies "tier list". It assumes a metagame where only they are available:

Top:
Wario

High:
R.O.B.
Ganondorf
Bowser
Ike
Bowser Jr.

Mid:
Samus
Donkey Kong
D3
Charizard

Don't have a "low" or "bottom" because no heavy really gets destroyed by another. For those confused by Ganon, he actually has the tools to deal with Wario and R.O.B. and does well against the rest of the heavies, being able to overpower and safely edgeguard them. Bowser Jr. is the only heavy with substantial combos and edge traps, only lacking reward from grabs.

Samus eats bowser alive. i main both.

 

[Ffamran]

Fake or not, this just happened: http://smashboards.com/threads/newest-german-tier-list.398286/.

Edit: Here's the list.

Here is the newest tier list out of Germany. They used recent tournaments and voting in the community to get these results.

1+
1
1-

2+
2
2-

3+
3
3-

4+
4
4-

5+
5
5-

6


Pac-Man had the highest drop (down 1.4 from one month ago) and Lucina had the highest jump (up 2.13 from the same time).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3 is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high on that list, holy ****

Smooth Criminal

 

[Djent]

Too Low: EDIT:
Too High:

And these are really just the most notable "WTF?"s.

 

[Nu~]

D3 is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high on that list, holy ****

Smooth Criminal

Nah, you've obviously mained a top tier since day one.
Stop being modest

 

[Smog Frog]

if thats customs on then charizard is around ike level.

 

[Ffamran]

Too Low:
Too High:

And these are really just the most notable "WTF?"s.

Ahem, . Dead last and lower than .

 

[Locke 06]

if thats customs on then charizard is around ike level.

Europe as a region is predominantly customs off.

 

[TheZyzyva]

One thing I want to know is, why is there such disagreement over who are the best and worst heavies?

Even putting aside initial overhype of Bowser, we see him going everywhere from C tier in the Shi-Gaming tier list to being called among the worst characters in the game by others. Donkey Kong is getting tournament results with and without customs, yet people including DK players are saying he can't be that good if he lost so much from Brawl. Charizard is either the best heavy in the game due to his great disadvantaged state and range, or is slow, cumbersome, and easily punished to the point of being garbage.

The only thing people seem to agree upon is Dedede not being so hot but that his game plan at least works in certain matchups.

I dunno man, its weird. Like that list has DDD really high when I'm calling him the worst in the game. They probably dont have any great DK players like DKwill or Average Joe (who has stepped up big recently) so I can understand his placement; if I had never seen them in action Id think DK is pretty bad too. I think Im always surprised at Ganons placement though. Like he always feels too high (sure he can kill in 4 hits but how does he land them?) or way too low (he cant be that bad with those punishes!). Hes weird like that to me.

When it come to Charizard I find myself constantly flip flopping. Some days I think his range is a great asset and other days I think he is held back by poor options and is too predictable. And since theres only one Zard main Ive ever heard of (Bloodcross) I dont have any exposure to him to make a solid opinion on. Call him great or call him awful, I really cant argue either way.

 

[Quickhero]

Tier lists really don't matter this game (at least this early) but even if they did matter, if you see something obviously like Lucina being higher than Marth just ignore it.