Character Competitive Impressions

[Ray_Kalm]

Just got first with Ganon in a tournament today. Managed to 3-0 the same Diddy twice in winners and grand. Didn't drop a single set, lost just one single game to a Sheik; she (he?) is scary with her combos.

Ganon has a lot of untapped potential, he's a decent character. If this game was Brawl I wouldn't stand a chance using a character like Ganon, Samus, Zelda, or Link. The tier gap in this game is small. There should be only a few tiers, S-D.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Now guys to be fair we should think about something too. I doubt ADHD often uses Villager. While he's a skilled player, someone who focused on Villager a LOT might be able to do this EVEN better.

Especially at Evo with a 5 minute timer, I'd totally pick up villager. More than likely, you could manage to beat out almost every avaerage player in pools with the strategy and at least have a shot at being in the big part of the tournament for bragging rights.

Is it actually going to be a problem in the long run? Can't tell unless you wait and see. Is everyone going to WANT to wait? Probably not from what we can see.

 

[Blobface]

I just got first with Ganon in a tournament today. Managed to 3-0 the same Diddy twice in winners and grand. Didn't drop a single set, lost just one single game to a Sheik; she (he?) is scary with her combos.

Ganon has a lot of untapped potential, he's a decent character. If this game was Brawl I wouldn't stand a chance using a character like Ganon, Samus, Zelda, or Link. The tier gap in this game is small. There should be only a few tiers, S-D.

...

IT BEGINS

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'm not afraid of Custom villager. I know how to beat it and I will keep on beating it.

 

[Neoleo21]

Now guys to be fair we should think about something too. I doubt ADHD often uses Villager. While he's a skilled player, someone who focused on Villager a LOT might be able to do this EVEN better.

Especially at Evo with a 5 minute timer, I'd totally pick up villager. More than likely, you could manage to beat out almost every avaerage player in pools with the strategy and at least have a shot at being in the big part of the tournament for bragging rights.

Is it actually going to be a problem in the long run? Can't tell unless you wait and see. Is everyone going to WANT to wait? Probably not from what we can see.

Hence why we then turn this to say how legalizing more traveling stages would benefit the game.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Also, since all of you were too busy johning about customs:

Ally got 1st today at Lanwar X, but he had to climb through losers after Red X sent him there. Finals ended up being Montreal brothers facing off: HolyNightmare vs Ally. Ally beat Holly and reset the bracket.

http://challonge.com/lwx1v1
http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/3930600

 

[Antonykun]

I'm not afraid of Custom villager. I know how to beat it and I will keep on beating it.

Those sound like fighting words!
Let's Tussle!
*Gets Helicopter Kicked*
'-'
I can see Brawler beating Villager especially if it's your Brawler.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The game isn't that jank, EL.

It's the people that are making it unbearable.

Smooth Criminal

Yeah... Kind of tired of people picking something different each week and calling it broken. Apparently nobody remembers all the frustrations that came with following competitive Brawl... No real chain grabs, no planking, no edgehogging, no infinites, no random tripping, no grab releases to guaranteed death, no real BTFO matchups yet, etc. So many of the things that people bickered about tirelessly with Brawl aren't even around anymore and yet people are more on edge than ever. When Mewtwo gets here, I'm sure people are going to complain that he's either "too good" or "not good enough" so there will be all that to sit through too...

 

[Jigglymaster]

Those sound like fighting words!
Let's Tussle!
*Gets Helicopter Kicked*
'-'
I can see Brawler beating Villager especially if it's your Brawler.

Because of Brawler's fast mobility, he can get in pretty easily, not to mention if he gets one good hit on Villager it's over. D-tilt will punish the ledge re-grab and has a good chance at not popping the ballons, follow up with HK . The moment Brawler gets the kill its done, his mobility is too much for Villager to do anything about and each HK does 17%, creating a huge gap in distance for the % lead to time Villager out. I knew exactly what I was doing from the start and it worked out in my favor.

 

[Strangelove13]

Now guys to be fair we should think about something too. I doubt ADHD often uses Villager. While he's a skilled player, someone who focused on Villager a LOT might be able to do this EVEN better.

Especially at Evo with a 5 minute timer, I'd totally pick up villager. More than likely, you could manage to beat out almost every avaerage player in pools with the strategy and at least have a shot at being in the big part of the tournament for bragging rights.

Is it actually going to be a problem in the long run? Can't tell unless you wait and see. Is everyone going to WANT to wait? Probably not from what we can see.

I don't think it will be that much of a problem later on (and I'm a big no one, I know). This strat doesn't seem like it has many other ways to evolve past what he already showed us, even if done by an experienced Villager main. It relies too much on the inexperience and impatience of the opponent.

He needs to have that trip sapling up near the ledge in order to keep the opponent away and capitalize on a trip if they get too impatient. Once people start learning the time it takes for the sapling to disappear they can wait it out in shield and then occupy that space preventing Villager from putting it back up.

He also relies a lot on the exploding balloons to keep people from punishing him and damaging the opponent before they can get their hitboxes out to punish his 2nd ledge grab. I could be wrong but it seems to me like the balloons fly up almost all the time to the same locations, if you learn where they go you could find a spot to stay and get that punish off without getting hit by the explosions.

Something else that seems very effective is ledge trumping and stage spiking. Villager's recovery is pretty predictable so an experienced player could very easily ledge trump villager seeing as he can't do much else but grab the ledge out of his up b. As for stage spiking, it won't kill Villager but it will tack on some damage which is really all you need, the exploding balloons might make that hard though.

All you really need to beat this strat is to get a lead on Villager and run away, forcing him to approach to revert the situation (which isn't exactly his strong suit), and by forcing him to approach you have already undone his gameplan.

Of course this is all theoretical and an actual Villager main could probably explain it better than I can, but that strat doesn't seem to be sustainable in the long run after people actually practice against it, and I don't really see where else it could go seeing as it depends too much on the exploding balloons and trip sapling to prevent punishes. Once people find their way around those there's not much else he can do.

 

[thehard]

Also, since all of you were too busy johning about customs:

Ally got 1st today at Lanwar X, but he had to climb through losers after Red X sent him there. Finals ended up being Montreal brothers facing off: HolyNightmare vs Ally. Ally beat Holly and reset the bracket.

http://challonge.com/lwx1v1
http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/3930600

I watched that. Ally is a shoo-in for Top 8 at EVO IMO. His Mario is so fluid it's ridiculous.

 

[Antonykun]

Because of Brawler's fast mobility, he can get in pretty easily, not to mention if he gets one good hit on Villager it's over. D-tilt will punish the ledge re-grab and has a good chance at not popping the ballons, follow up with HK . The moment Brawler gets the kill its done, his mobility is too much for Villager to do anything about and each HK does 17%, creating a huge gap in distance for the % lead to time Villager out. I knew exactly what I was doing from the start and it worked out in my favor.

Have you ever faced an Aggressive villager? Ik most Villagers are campy but her rush down is solidish. She still probably loses.

 

[AvariceX]

Just got first with Ganon in a tournament today. Managed to 3-0 the same Diddy twice in winners and grand. Didn't drop a single set, lost just one single game to a Sheik; she (he?) is scary with her combos.

Ganon has a lot of untapped potential, he's a decent character. If this game was Brawl I wouldn't stand a chance using a character like Ganon, Samus, Zelda, or Link. The tier gap in this game is small. There should be only a few tiers, S-D.

I can vouch for this. I was there and the Diddy that Ray played in finals was Trulliam who is a very good player. The Ganon side-b tech traps were awesomely disgusting.

 

[Ffamran]

Dude and dudette! The feints with Falco's short hops! Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LbSQ7ZY3lA. @ Shaya , was this what you were talking about?

Also, I never heard of Team Ragnarok, has anyone heard of them? Their stream, http://www.twitch.tv/teamragnarok, might have finished about an hour ago and it started about 10 hours ago.

 

[Locuan]

Dude and dudette! The feints with Falco's short hops! Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LbSQ7ZY3lA. @ Shaya , was this what you were talking about?

Also, I never heard of Team Ragnarok, has anyone heard of them? Their stream, http://www.twitch.tv/teamragnarok, might have finished about an hour ago and it started about 10 hours ago.

Ffamran, you have just discovered the link to the Puerto Rican Smash community. Manny Manito is a good friend of mine and basically one if not the only Falco in Smash 4 at the present in said community.

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran, you have just discovered the link to the Puerto Rican Smash community. Manny Manito is a good friend of mine and basically one if not the only Falco in Smash 4 at the present in said community.

Say hello to him for me and that I love his work!

 

[Pazx]

I'm not afraid of Custom villager. I know how to beat it and I will keep on beating it.

I have so much respect for this post. This is the right attitude.

For those who missed the stream (or just want pointers in general), would someone mind summarising how Jtails and Puff beat ADHD? It would be beneficial for us to have a definitive "how to beat this gimmick" to direct people towards.

 

[Trieste SP]

Wait... that villager setup was used in KTAR too ?

A guy actually used the same gimmick at my tourney too. That thing is ANNOYING to deal with but it's not impossible to beat. I'm glad someone actually took that guy out before he reached me.

I gotta catch up and watch it. I heard there were players were able to beat it too.

 

[extrasensory]

I have so much respect for this post. This is the right attitude.

For those who missed the stream (or just want pointers in general), would someone mind summarising how Jtails and Puff beat ADHD? It would be beneficial for us to have a definitive "how to beat this gimmick" to direct people towards.

i didn't see the match between adhd and puffster (and he could probably elaborate better than i could anyway) but jtails vs adhd was basically jtails spamming thunder jolt as pikachu and going in when villager decided to approach, pretty much invalidating the trip sapling by never going near it (it was basically forgotten about as the timer started running out) and trying to stay outside of villager's slingshot range so all he had was predictable gyroids and returning pocketed thunder jolts. the match went to time with both on their last stock and about 10% difference between both characters. after that both players switched to diddy and jtails won.

personally i don't mind timeouts but i'm not sure how much you can take from this match as (from what i remember) a lot of it was adhd camping the ledge even when jtails had the lead and just refusing to approach while the whole thunder jolt strategy relied on the fact that it's a projectile that can hit you if you try to ledge camp and is weak and spammable enough to not matter much if villager pockets it. i think the only thing worth talking about is that jtails did not feel confident taking his tournament-winning diddy against that villager, as the character genuinely might have terrible options against a campy villager (as a bonus, it would explain why m2k and zero think it's broken as well).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I really don't understand the complaints about ADHD's Villager. He didn't win the tournament; he was one of the players who tied for 5th. This was despite the fact that it was transparently obvious that no one had really labbed up how to force him off the ledge when he's doing that, a situation that gave him a massive advantage he would never have in the long term. Even still this killer strategy apparently is countered by a non-Pikachu player picking Pikachu and hitting the B button a lot. I have no doubt Jtails would have won with Diddy as well; winning with Pikachu was just a hilarious way to win against a total gimmick strategy.

What I was really paying attention to was what was truly successful in the tournament which wasn't the gimmick Villager strategy. I saw dabuz, one of the top players at the game, utilize every ounce of advantage he could from customs... and lose grand finals coming from winnner's side to a Diddy Kong main who was not using customs (not like Diddy really should). This same Diddy main won a tight set against 6WX's Sonic who was also getting a ton of mileage out of customs and dapuffster using a character who doesn't even exist in customs off as well so this wasn't just about the specific Diddy/Rosalina match-up. Let's be clear about this. Customs helped everyone else in the top 4 and didn't help the Diddy main who won the tournament. These were close games and Jtails is clearly a very skilled player; it's fine that he won the tournament since he very obviously earned the win through skillful play. However, it does raise the question. What does that say about how ridiculous Diddy is with customs off? How bad would this tournament have been if everyone else had been playing with nerfed versions of their characters (or in dapuffster's case playing without his main existing) while the tournament winner would have lost nothing? Can anyone say, with seriousness, that this tournament would have been a more exciting, more competitive event without customs given what we saw in the outcome?

I legitimately don't understand how anyone watching that stream and looking at how the tournament turned out could have walked away feeling anything but a renewed sense of confidence in customs. ADHD was clearly trying his hardest to prove customs are broken and failed, and at the top four level, customs in every single game did more to help the side that ended up losing than the side that ended up winning. If that's not a strong data point in favor of customs being balanced and even more balancing toward the game as a whole, I don't know what is.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is what I'm saying guys. I lost to a ZSS and a Diddy and I'm not angry nor do I feel cheated. Why? Because with customs I didn't feel like I was playing this stupidly weak nerfed character and I had a TON of fun.

After the tourney my friend and I immediately started playing with the different custom sets loaded on his Wii U and we found alot of interesting things.

Customs are just good ol fun.

 

[Bjurrse]

I agree that it might have looked ridiculous, what ADHD did, but it was not that gamebreaking, just a lame attempt to smudge customs.

As a mii brawler main, Im happy to see Dapuffster do well. I still think brawler is really good, but when you learn that his kill options are limited, you can abuse that. This is what my sparring partners have been doing. They stay out of the ledges.

Helicopter kick is GREAT! But its not a wtf broken move, when you learn to play against it.

 

[Dre89]

Everyone's talking about how the masses think something new is OP every week

I'm still laughing at the people who thought Bowser would be OP after the demo tourney

 

[Hippieslayer]

This is what I'm saying guys. I lost to a ZSS and a Diddy and I'm not angry nor do I feel cheated. Why? Because with customs I didn't feel like I was playing this stupidly weak nerfed character and I had a TON of fun.

After the tourney my friend and I immediately started playing with the different custom sets loaded on his Wii U and we found alot of interesting things.

Customs are just good ol fun.

I thought your performance was impressive, and you certainly made Marth look viable, which was exciting to see. All those early kills you got with the way you used that Up-B... reminiscient of Mii Brawler. Besides you lost to Nairo, not just some ZSS

In any case Marth be looking pretty good with dat Up-B and dat lunging shieldbreaker!

 

[Shaya]

I think ultimately, the meta of this game (with customs) is kill people at 60%.
Diddy is lucky enough to have this by default.
Villager may not last the long hall because as people say, they cannot kill reliably. In a game of good characters that can kill confirm at 60%, I don't see how Villager is viable with a fair time limit (5 minutes is disgusting). A strategy being "beatable" doesn't necessarily mean to me it's not a problem for a game's health though.


There are characters that may get left behind with customs on that otherwise probably had a better looking prospect going for them otherwise. "More" characters could certainly invalidate them. No smash game will ever truly be balanced, although this game feels close in a lot of ways but on other days you have heavy doubts.

Diddy truly is an exceptionally dominating character though, no doubt in my mind he still retains no.1 spot and I don't feel like any rulesets will ever change this. The game could be changing a lot very soon though (Mew2Patch). People abhor customs enough to refuse going to their events, a riff the scene doesn't need. We gotta be really careful about this overall, and the bipartisan resolution is ultimately in all of our best interests.

Ruleset integrity? Do the best players continue to win? Does it keep audiences happy?
Melee would need an LGL if anyone "good enough" was willing. M2K had reason to stop because of the negative publicity it had on his social media prospects (+all the easy to plank character mains dropped them for Fox). I don't think this game needs an LGL though, far from that in my line of thinking for this point.

I think there was a lot of contention over Villager at this tournament, but I'm seeing just as much facebook posts complaining about Mii Brawler to be honest (and it's never stopped since Pinch Punch Month really, continual and never ending, lol; other flavour of the weak complaints only mildly phase out the ever growing drum beat "moves that have air/wind affinity with their names should be banned plz thankyou"). Dabuz is soooo good oh my god though.

 

[Blobface]

I think there was a lot of contention over Villager at this tournament, but I'm seeing just as much facebook posts complaining about Mii Brawler to be honest (and it's never stopped since Pinch Punch Month really, continual and never ending, lol; other flavour of the weak complaints only mildly phase out the ever growing drum beat "moves that take their names from wind-based natural disasters should be banned plz thankyou"). Dabuz is soooo good oh my god though.

Oh for cripes sake, Mii Brawler is getting flak? He just rushes you down, and he's good at it, but there's not the slightest bit if jank involved. This isn't about Helicopter Kick is it?

"Holy crap this move is useful! Ban it now! Ban: all recovery moves! all smash attacks, all tilts! all side specials! All down specials! All neutral specials! All jabs, and all throws!. Welcome to Super Pummel Bros 4, where matches are one minute of pummeling, and whoever has the % lead wins. Just imagine the hype when someone actually lands a ledge attack!

 

[HeroMystic]

"Holy crap this move is useful! Ban it now!

Smash 4 scene in a nutshell.

Hell, this is the entirety of Smash Community in general. This is actually nothing new.

 

[Smog Frog]

tiny brawler is actually pretty dumb

 

[Shaya]

Oh for cripes sake, Mii Brawler is getting flak? He just rushes you down, and he's good at it, but there's not the slightest bit if jank involved. This isn't about Helicopter Kick is it?

"Holy crap this move is useful! Ban it now! Ban: all recovery moves! all smash attacks, all tilts! all side specials! All down specials! All neutral specials! All jabs, and all throws!. Welcome to Super Pummel Bros 4, where matches are one minute of pummeling, and whoever has the % lead wins. Just imagine the hype when someone actually lands a ledge attack!

Whoops, that wasn't a well thought out size-1er facetious comment *fixed*. I'm partially zombie after getting home and relaxing after winning a tournament myself~
People don't like dying at 60%. We've been spoiled. Rage doesn't help.
But that could be the game at it's zenith, with hopefully a large plethora of characters with those capabilities.

 

[Hippieslayer]

No, the meta of the game with customs on is not kill people at 60%. That's what happens when you don't know how to play.

People whinning about brawler are idiots and don't need to be payed any attention. L2matchup is the one and only thing that needs to be said. People whinning about villager are also mostly idiots who don't need to be payed any attention, ADHD got 5th because people didn't know what to do against that lame crap. Even so Tweek and Jtails both managed to make him go Diddy and the latter took him out. It was lame yes, but not broken. Regardless, it might be broken against a large part of the cast so tbh some kind of rule change might be necessary, time will tell.

Regardless, what does this have to do with customs in general? Not much. Here's the anti-customs logic:

This particular move is broken; therefore, ban all custom moves.

Let's apply this logic to something else (anything really but I'ma apply it to characters here):

This particular character is broken; therefore, ban all characters.

Tbh I think that's a perfectly fair demonstration of why the custom naysayers rely on everything but reason. Just like Amazing Ampharos said I don't get how you could've watched that tourney and then ended up thinking customs sucked. There was more diversity than ever, it was unpredictable, it was EXCITING for crying out loud. Not just the same ol' top tiers doing the same ol' stuff over and over again. Consequently some got jacked over by characters like Mii-Brawler. Why? Because they were already settled in on the half-stale non-customs metagame and came in unprepared.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I think of instead of banning a custom move completely just ban the combination of a move.

 

[S_B]

I think people are whining extra hard about this tactic because it's one used to stall the match, but as even the players themselves have pointed out, they figured out a way to counter it in the SAME tournament it debuted in.

And if it became too much of a problem, the wonderful thing about customs is that you have to select each one individually, meaning you could ban TC if it DID become that much of an issue (though I don't think it will).

Customs are going to be good for the meta in the long run, because (in some cases) they allow us to take gimped-as-s**t characters and raise their viability to the point where you'll actually see them in tournaments.

And that can only be a GOOD thing. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm so damn sick of watching Diddy fight Shiek, or himself, for the jillionth time...

 

[Conda]

Yeah... Kind of tired of people picking something different each week and calling it broken. Apparently nobody remembers all the frustrations that came with following competitive Brawl... No real chain grabs, no planking, no edgehogging, no infinites, no random tripping, no grab releases to guaranteed death, no real BTFO matchups yet, etc. So many of the things that people bickered about tirelessly with Brawl aren't even around anymore and yet people are more on edge than ever. When Mewtwo gets here, I'm sure people are going to complain that he's either "too good" or "not good enough" so there will be all that to sit through too...

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread in the past couple weeks due to being super busy with real work (grumble), and I can definitely see that this thread moves perhaps too fast. We may be too quick to bring things up that we think are broken, and other people explain its not broken, and the cycle continues conversationally for pages. Which is FUN, sure, but I could see readers turning away if they feel some posts can sometimes feel like they're just stuffed into this thread without much reasonable thought or contructiveness, thus padding out the page count.

I love this thread, it's what keeps me most involved here on smashboards for sure. But perhaps some restraint and not as much worying would be good. With Smash 4 being a more reasonable game with more reasonable balance, this thread perhaps should reflect it naturally.

 

[ZarroTsu]

It occurs to me that once @ ZarroTsu finishes his spreadsheet here, we should try to spread it around as much as possible to commentators and the like so that maybe they can read up on what all the customs do.

The sheet is practically done already, it's simply up for user additions at the moment. I originally had it in excel form to make it look fancy, but obviously not everyone has excel so distributing that copy of it is fairly moot.

But yeah, it was partly my plan to have all the custom sets and what the customs actually do all tidily available in one place. Use by TOs didn't cross my mind, but they're the ones it'd be the most useful for anyway, so why not.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh for cripes sake, Mii Brawler is getting flak? He just rushes you down, and he's good at it, but there's not the slightest bit if jank involved. This isn't about Helicopter Kick is it?

"Holy crap this move is useful! Ban it now! Ban: all recovery moves! all smash attacks, all tilts! all side specials! All down specials! All neutral specials! All jabs, and all throws!. Welcome to Super Pummel Bros 4, where matches are one minute of pummeling, and whoever has the % lead wins. Just imagine the hype when someone actually lands a ledge attack!

Whoops, that wasn't a well thought out size-1er facetious comment *fixed*. I'm partially zombie after getting home and relaxing after winning a tournament myself~
People don't like dying at 60%. We've been spoiled. Rage doesn't help.
But that could be the game at it's zenith, with hopefully a large plethora of characters with those capabilities.

It's especially hilarious because it's very Melee-esque, both Brawler's fast pace and killing at generally low %. For all the complaining I hear about Smash 4 lacking early kill setups, there seems to be a lot of extra complaining when stuff is discovered that lets it happen.

 

[Firefoxx]

It's especially hilarious because it's very Melee-esque, both Brawler's fast pace and killing at generally low %. For all the complaining I hear about Smash 4 lacking early kill setups, there seems to be a lot of extra complaining when stuff is discovered that lets it happen.

Bonus points if the person complains about grab set-ups, as if grabs aren't a huge part of many Melee combos.

People also seem to hate the fact that an overall recovery buff + ledge trumps = free recoveries (it doesn't but ya know) but also don't like windboxes because they make recovering more difficult. (The windbox hate is my favorite customs hate because things like Pit/Dark Pit impact orbitars and Doc's soaring tornado are large, long lasting hitboxes that make edge guarding super easy but don't get near the hate that all of the far less versatile windboxes get.)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol Tweek asked to be on stream to show he could beat villager...and he did... but already forgotten.

I have so much respect for this post. This is the right attitude.

For those who missed the stream (or just want pointers in general), would someone mind summarising how Jtails and Puff beat ADHD? It would be beneficial for us to have a definitive "how to beat this gimmick" to direct people towards.

I'll do it.

Summary:
The winner of a game in timeouts is based on who has the lowest %, lowest % wins; Knowing this Tweek, Puffster and Jtails needed only to gain the % lead and then could ignore the Ledge camp entirely. Since the person with the lowest % is 'winning' the game, Villager is forced to leave the ledge if he wants to win or he loses via timeout. Since Villager is forced to leave the ledge, they can now fight as per normal with Villager maintaining a keep away game. Since all 3 players were cognizant that ADHD would return to the ledge had he been winning they also maintained a keep away game with occasional poke, and even a kill. Jtails used Pikachu to capitalized that there is no ledge invincibility on the second grab, by throwing out thunder jolts. As a result Villager couldn't camp the ledge either regardless of % lead. Tweek by extension used his clown cart explosion and Mecha koopas to force Villager off the ledge. Brawler was the only one without projectiles, but was fine using his melee moveset. Other fighter games use health instead of % but the same concepts apply. Sports games like Football use points (and I think we've all seen enough timeouts in football lol) and will stall the last moments of the game if they are winning with ball possession.

Tl;dr: Anytime you have the lead you are "winning" and don't have to approach. The opponents job is to take the lead from you. If a Villager (or any character) is camping you, get the damage lead and they will be forced to approach you from whatever their effective range is. If someone is just ledge camping, they lose invincibility on the regrab so you can throw out a hitbox that hits below the stage and potentially kill them.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

We shouldn't ban anything yet. This isn't Smogon. This isn't the 6 months where Brawl MK was banned. This isn't a ludicrously unbalanced game. This is a game that has so many characters that, naturally, it'll take longer than you think for the Meta to develop. Just when you think we're all set to make a tier list, someone out there wins a tourney with default 1111 swordsman. One minute Yoshi is top tier, the next he's rarely used.

And by the time all the surprises are gone, BAM. Mewtwo released. Along with a possible minor balance patch (don't count on it). Now we have to account for that in everything we talk about. And his meta will develop fast, so even if he's a mid tier character, he's going to seem really dangerous at first.
Prepare yourself.

 

[outfoxd]

Is the complaint then that a move is broken if it forces a match outside the traditional paradigm? That's what it seems like if guys are just resorting to a change in mindset to deal with an unorthodox strategy and a character gets harangued for it.

 

[Firefoxx]

Is the complaint then that a move is broken if it forces a match outside the traditional paradigm? That's what it seems like if guys are just resorting to a change in mindset to deal with an unorthodox strategy and a character gets harangued for it.

Basically yeah. The common reactions to seeing customs villager for the first time are that, villager is literal Hitler, counter timber should be banned, or concern trolling over one tournament that customs should be banned from people who don't want to put in the work to actually be as good at the game as they should be (like M2K)