Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

Is the complaint then that a move is broken if it forces a match outside the traditional paradigm? That's what it seems like if guys are just resorting to a change in mindset to deal with an unorthodox strategy and a character gets harangued for it.

Already looking like all I have to do if I want to cheese it out. Is switch to Shield monado after gaining % lead.
Cut all his projectile damage. Have them dealing like 2.4-3% if they hit me anyways. Shield stun too low for him to try and capitalize off of anything. Airslash OOS or just roll since his grab is poop but its the only really feasible option against my Shield if all I want to do is sit in it. Go to battle field just to be extra mean so I can platform hop.
Wouldn't require him to ledge camp either to perform it.

 

[Jigglymaster]

It's especially hilarious because it's very Melee-esque, both Brawler's fast pace and killing at generally low %. For all the complaining I hear about Smash 4 lacking early kill setups, there seems to be a lot of extra complaining when stuff is discovered that lets it happen.

Makes me wonder if Brawl came out before Melee and then everyone tried to play Melee like Brawl until one guy decided to start spamming up throw rest as Jigglypuff. Then Jiggs would get banned cause a character is dying at 0%

 

[HermitHelmet]

Something that I'd wish we'd let go of is giving people like M2K and ZeRo so much mileage out of their opinions on social media. Just because they're bigger names in the scene than pretty much everyone, does not give them to authority to cry ban at everything - And yet people take it as gospel.

Anyway, as for the ADHD Villager antics yesterday, he got 5th against Jtails' Pikachu. Pretty sure we don't have much to worry about. Jtails is a great player regardless, but in the interview afterwards, he stated that he literally ran through a bunch of characters in his head, and Pikachu of all things was what he decided was optimal. If we can simply THINK of a way to counter an "issue" without much thought to it, the "issue" (Counter Timber) isn't much of an issue to begin with.

However, this does raise questions about viewership and how fun it is to watch. ADHD's matches weren't fun to watch at all, (whilst he was camping anyways) which honestly begs for a solution, since Live-Streaming is now a lot more plausible than it was back in 2008.

I would honestly opt for a "Limit" of how often the Sapling can be used in a set. Maybe around 3 or 4 per game. This will make Villagers question which Custom to use, adding strategy before the game even starts. Do you want to use the more reliable other Sapling Customs/Default because you want consistency, and you don't want to be limited? Or do you want the quick-fix Sapling that makes them Trip and is hella good, but it only can be used a handful of times?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Something that I'd wish we'd let go of is giving people like M2K and ZeRo so much mileage out of their opinions on social media. Just because they're bigger names in the scene than pretty much everyone, does not give them to authority to cry ban at everything - And yet people take it as gospel.

Anyway, as for the ADHD Villager antics yesterday, he got 5th against Jtails' Pikachu. Pretty sure we don't have much to worry about. Jtails is a great player regardless, but in the interview afterwards, he stated that he literally ran through a bunch of characters in his head, and Pikachu of all things was what he decided was optimal. If we can simply THINK of a way to counter an "issue" without much thought to it, the "issue" (Counter Timber) isn't much of an issue to begin with.

However, this does raise questions about viewership and how fun it is to watch. ADHD's matches weren't fun to watch at all, (whilst he was camping anyways) which honestly begs for a solution, since Live-Streaming is now a lot more plausible than it was back in 2008.

I would honestly opt for a "Limit" of how often the Sapling can be used in a set. Maybe around 3 or 4 per game. This will make Villagers question which Custom to use, adding strategy before the game even starts. Do you want to use the more reliable other Sapling Customs/Default because you want consistency, and you don't want to be limited? Or do you want the quick-fix Sapling that makes them Trip and is hella good, but it only can be used a handful of times?

We?
most people here take everything those two say with a grain of salt.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

ADHD's matchups didnt bore me so long as the players knew the game plan.

Throwing complex rules on a move is bonkers. Thats worse then Smogon.

 

[Hippieslayer]

erh limiting the amounts of saplings used to 3-4 is a horrible solution, much better to just add a ledge grab limit specifically for villagers using the exploding balloons in that case imo; why'd you limit the amount of saplings used anyway? those werent what allowed him to camp like that

that being said I dont think any rule change is warranted as of now

 

[HermitHelmet]

erh limiting the amounts of saplings used to 3-4 is a horrible solution, much better to just add a ledge grab limit specifically for villagers using the exploding balloons in that case imo; why'd you limit the amount of saplings used anyway? those werent what allowed him to camp like that

that being said I dont think any rule change is warranted as of now

Yeah, you're right. That's probably the best idea, to make a ledge limit on the Exploding Balloons. I suppose it's the combination of the three (sapling, ledge and balloons) that is the issue. To nerf the Balloons is probably the best idea.

 

[Strangelove13]

Seeing some pro players out there like M2K (yes I know he can be a bit impulsive at times, but still) talk about an outright banning of ALL custom moves after this debacle is pretty disheartening. He and others may not see it but they have a huge voice within this community and preaching this ban first mentality is pretty bad for the long term.

I know it was considered boring to watch and all that but like I've said before, this "ultimate campiest character in the game" got outcamped TWICE by DEFAULT characters, plus the character who won this tournament was DEFAULT as well, why is everyone so up in arms about custom moves and their brokenness if DEFAULT characters are still proving superior in many cases.

Also, one thing that gets thrown a lot is that ADHD doesn't main Villager (even though he is a great player and has the foundations from being a top player in Brawl) and a Villager main could potentially bring this strat to the next level and break the game for good. I would love to hear from an actual Villager main what could be done beyond what ADHD showed us and it would be great if Villager mains could chime in on that regard.

One thing that gets me doubting the most is the fact that without fail, every single time ADHD lost he switched straight away to default Diddy, to me that just means that even he knows that this isn't viable and that as soon as people adapt to it there is little else he can do to make this work as this strat is pretty one-dimensional.

 

[Antonykun]

Something that I'd wish we'd let go of is giving people like M2K and ZeRo so much mileage out of their opinions on social media. Just because they're bigger names in the scene than pretty much everyone, does not give them to authority to cry ban at everything - And yet people take it as gospel.

Anyway, as for the ADHD Villager antics yesterday, he got 5th against Jtails' Pikachu. Pretty sure we don't have much to worry about. Jtails is a great player regardless, but in the interview afterwards, he stated that he literally ran through a bunch of characters in his head, and Pikachu of all things was what he decided was optimal. If we can simply THINK of a way to counter an "issue" without much thought to it, the "issue" (Counter Timber) isn't much of an issue to begin with.

However, this does raise questions about viewership and how fun it is to watch. ADHD's matches weren't fun to watch at all, (whilst he was camping anyways) which honestly begs for a solution, since Live-Streaming is now a lot more plausible than it was back in 2008.

I would honestly opt for a "Limit" of how often the Sapling can be used in a set. Maybe around 3 or 4 per game. This will make Villagers question which Custom to use, adding strategy before the game even starts. Do you want to use the more reliable other Sapling Customs/Default because you want consistency, and you don't want to be limited? Or do you want the quick-fix Sapling that makes them Trip and is hella good, but it only can be used a handful of times?

Knowing how late those guys kill that would be a shot to the knee.
If a villager's being campy try running away when you have the lead while being as disrespectful as possible, that will get the crowd hype while also telling the brat to actually play his glorious offense.

 

[Unknownkid]

Seeing some pro players out there like M2K (yes I know he can be a bit impulsive at times, but still) talk about an outright banning of ALL custom moves after this debacle is pretty disheartening. He and others may not see it but they have a huge voice within this community and preaching this ban first mentality is pretty bad for the long term.

I know it was considered boring to watch and all that but like I've said before, this "ultimate campiest character in the game" got outcamped TWICE by DEFAULT characters, plus the character who won this tournament was DEFAULT as well, why is everyone so up in arms about custom moves and their brokenness if DEFAULT characters are still proving superior in many cases.

Also, one thing that gets thrown a lot is that ADHD doesn't main Villager (even though he is a great player and has the foundations from being a top player in Brawl) and a Villager main could potentially bring this strat to the next level and break the game for good. I would love to hear from an actual Villager main what could be done beyond what ADHD showed us and it would be great if Villager mains could chime in on that regard.

One thing that gets me doubting the most is the fact that without fail, every single time ADHD lost he switched straight away to default Diddy, to me that just means that even he knows that this isn't viable and that as soon as people adapt to it there is little else he can do to make this work as this strat is pretty one-dimensional.

I don't know. Actual Villager could have fought back like this player did
http://www.twitch.tv/ultraarcade/b/637469699?t=3h43m37s (thank you @HeroMystic for the link)
and still lose to a better player. Based on the commentary, they never fought before and the better player switch characters for funzy at the last round. The Counter to Custom Villager is simple. It's time to "git gud", my friends.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Jtail's victory at KTAR just shows that even default characters such as Diddy Kong are still a very viable force to be reckoned with. Just because customs help buff up the specials of some characters doesn't mean that they'll really change up the metagame.

Also, on EVO, I think we should be worried more about the time than on the legality of custom moves IMO.

 

[Superbat]

I don't think we should we worrying about customs getting banned. More than likely the decision of whether customs will be happened will hopefully be held at smashboards which as we can see, have more sensible people here and can also realize that customs are a good thing. Haters gonna hate. We'll just do our own thing and move on.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Knowing how late those guys kill that would be a shot to the knee.
If a villager's being campy try running away when you have the lead while being as disrespectful as possible, that will get the crowd hype while also telling the brat to actually play his glorious offense.

That could actually work. What's he going to do at long range? Hit you with those sonic-speed Lloyds?

 

[UnownLegend]

Glad to see smashboards is being more sensible about this than r/smashbros

Honestly I'm positive that m2k and everybody else is overreacting about that combo. Every time somebody uses a new strategy to good effect in a competitive game everybody cries "OP! MUST NERF!" but more often than not people find ways to combat it and a couple months after people forget it was ever "op" in the first place.

I'm not a fan of these knee jerk calls to ban customs or even those specific customs based on this one example. If it's still a problem in a couple months, then we'll talk about banning them, but i'm positive it won't be

 

[Hippieslayer]

yesterdays tournament as a whole was a lot more fun to watch than it would've been without customs

as for top players voicing their opinions, there's no need to care about them, they just don't want to have to learn customs, especially true of those which play multiple smash games

the way ADHD switched to default Diddy just makes whatever he was trying to show fail horribly lol

 

[NairWizard]

This is silly.

ADHD was clearly dedicated to the strategy of timing people out with this custom. He didn't even try to approach. Of course a move is going to seem campy if a skilled player dedicates himself to using it in a campy way.

I can do this with defaults, and more effectively. Pikachu is way better than Villager at camping. You can camp tjolts and run away with Quick Attack almost unpredictably, and guess what? When your opponent finally gets in, Pikachu is actually good at KO'ing and fighting people up close, and has a good grab, so very little is going to come of it. It's even more nightmarish to face a camping Pikachu than a camping Villager, trust me.

I can do the same with Sonic, too, with just as many mixups and as much unpredictability.

If my goal is to run the timer, I have plenty of ways to run the timer without customs.

 

[deepseadiva]

the way ADHD switched to default Diddy just makes whatever he was trying to show fail horribly lol

This is so funny.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ADHD's matches were not boring to me.

He weeded out the weak minded from the true warriors.

Nothing could possibly be more exciting.

 

[Strangelove13]

the way ADHD switched to default Diddy just makes whatever he was trying to show fail horribly lol

This is what I don't understand, why are players like M2K and others advocating the banning of customs for being "overpowered" and "overcentralizing" when default Diddy just took the whole tournament?

Surely if default Diddy is even better than what is considered "overpowered" (OverOverpowered, XTREMEPowered?) than it makes sense for these people to first and foremost be advocating for the banning of Diddy Kong, and I don't see much of that coming from them.

P.S: I'm completely against banning both customs and Diddy, I just don't see why these guys are actively trying to ban something that got exposed in his first tournament, but not trying to ban what has been dominating the game for the past few months. Also funny how these same people were the ones yelling ADAPT when people were complaining about Diddy, now they are crying for ban after 1 tournament. Somehow because it's customs the standard is not the same?

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol why? You guys really don't know Jason Zimmerman very well do you? Known the man since he was a teenager and he is extremely outspoken against things he just doesn't like plain and simple. There is no logic to it. He hates camping. He has said time and again he wants to fight fun fights and fun opponents, not campers or people that run away.

To him camping is unacceptable. Period.

 

[Nabbitnator]

At least M2k didn't say it was broken but eventhubs just took what he said and made it seem like villager is the most broken character in the game. I am a bit tired of the misleading titles that either make characters look like they are broken or misleading info on why they are bad....

Again timber counter by itself is not broken. Extreme balloon probably has a way to beat it if we take the time to study the move. I'm not okay with trying to ban someone else's style of play though. They act like it makes him the best character in the game. Let's just study how to get around it first and see what the options are to combat it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i enjoy high level brawl Adhd's matches were no where near as slow as those matches, Plus they were intense as hell. i was so nervous when both tweak and nairo faced him.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Seeing some pro players out there like M2K (yes I know he can be a bit impulsive at times, but still) talk about an outright banning of ALL custom moves after this debacle is pretty disheartening. He and others may not see it but they have a huge voice within this community and preaching this ban first mentality is pretty bad for the long term.

I know it was considered boring to watch and all that but like I've said before, this "ultimate campiest character in the game" got outcamped TWICE by DEFAULT characters, plus the character who won this tournament was DEFAULT as well, why is everyone so up in arms about custom moves and their brokenness if DEFAULT characters are still proving superior in many cases.

Also, one thing that gets thrown a lot is that ADHD doesn't main Villager (even though he is a great player and has the foundations from being a top player in Brawl) and a Villager main could potentially bring this strat to the next level and break the game for good. I would love to hear from an actual Villager main what could be done beyond what ADHD showed us and it would be great if Villager mains could chime in on that regard.

One thing that gets me doubting the most is the fact that without fail, every single time ADHD lost he switched straight away to default Diddy, to me that just means that even he knows that this isn't viable and that as soon as people adapt to it there is little else he can do to make this work as this strat is pretty one-dimensional.

I wonder how much of a negative affect banning customs would have because they want to ban all of them. In some cases I wish the majority would ignore the bigger voices before making his or her own decision. I think there could be a nice counter to this villager combination in the future. We just don't have that answer yet.

 

[Piford]

Something interesting I find about ADHD is his performance at Collision XI compared to his performance at KTAR XII.

People were complaining that the only reason ADHD made it so far is by abusing customs villager, and that he shouldn't have been able to be more practiced smash 4 players like Nario. Well at Collision, ADHD actually beat both Nairo and Jtails playing Diddy in no customs. Then at KTAR, not only did ADHD place worse when trying to abuse customs, he also lost to Jtails. This tells me that this strategy actually made him perform worse than he could've.

 

[AccountsDept]

M2K said all customs shouldn't be allowed, not all customs are banned. He did not call for the banning of all customs. Bad wording on his part.

 

[Firefoxx]

Semantics. Not allowing customs = banning customs without using the word 'ban'. A cute attempt at PR, but that's about it.

 

[AccountsDept]

Semantics. Not allowing customs = banning customs without using the word 'ban'. A cute attempt at PR, but that's about it.

it's a bit unreasonable for a person who was chill about customs to go ape**** over one

we've actually established how unreasonable that is

he was playing custom palu on stream for god sakes, zero was more clear about banning the singular custom, and they both say they agree, so it's probably more than just "PR"

 

[Firefoxx]

Then he should understand his position within the community and be more careful about how he words things, or he should get someone to edit his tweets. People will take what he said and use it as evidence that ALL customs should be banned.

 

[UnownLegend]

it's a bit unreasonable for a person who was chill about customs to go ape**** over one

we've actually established how unreasonable that is

he was playing custom palu on stream for god sakes, zero was more clear about banning the singular custom, and they both say they agree, so it's probably more than just "PR"

some of his comments in his Facebook post imply wanting no customs period

 

[NachoOfCheese]

At least M2k didn't say it was broken but eventhubs just took what he said and made it seem like villager is the most broken character in the game. I am a bit tired of the misleading titles that either make characters look like they are broken or misleading info on why they are bad....

Again timber counter by itself is not broken. Extreme balloon probably has a way to beat it if we take the time to study the move. I'm not okay with trying to ban someone else's style of play though. They act like it makes him the best character in the game. Let's just study how to get around it first and see what the options are to combat it.

Keep in mind, it's eventhubs. If someone won a local smashfest with 10 people and items on with Samus, the headline would be something like:
Samus win takes the world by storm: overpowered character?

 

[COLINBG]

Smash 4 scene in a nutshell.

Hell, this is the entirety of Smash Community in general. This is actually nothing new.

Every ''competitive'' scene in every video game ever in a nutshell*

But I agree, people in general are just being lazy. If you keep losing to a certain thing, the solution is not a ban or a nerf; the solution is to actually try to beat it. I know, it sounds crazy, but trust me, it works. Keep practicing against it until you know how to deal with it in an effective manner.

If everyone gave up as soon as they can't do something, there would be no meta, there would be no competitive scene in the first place. That's what makes the game interesting; not seeing the same two characters every match because we're too lazy to try to beat them, and players actually trying to bring diversity in such a diverse game.

Seriously guys, it's not that hard. Yes, some things require more effort and dedication than others. We get it. But nothing is broken in this game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Then he should understand his position within the community and be more careful about how he words things, or he should get someone to edit his tweets. People will take what he said and use it as evidence that ALL customs should be banned.

Him and other top players in the community know exactly what their position is in the community. They use it to their advantage. Meanwhile m2k played MK for like 99% of his brawl time plays diddy and plays shiek in melee. It's like foh here man.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Customs should be allowed to a degree because it gives a good portion of the cast the opportunity to do better competitively instead of having to wait 5-6 years for a new installment and hoping they're better in the next game. I feel like customs are a godsend for low/mid tier characters. There's plenty of evidence that are vastly helped by them, for example, and that's exciting because it adds a new dimension to this game and keeps a lot of characters from just simply being written off as "bad."

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Again timber counter by itself is not broken. Extreme balloon probably has a way to beat it if we take the time to study the move. I'm not okay with trying to ban someone else's style of play though. They act like it makes him the best character in the game. Let's just study how to get around it first and see what the options are to combat it.

Balloon trip does not auto ledge snap there is clearly a frame delay before ledge grabs are enabled and its not a fast rise regardless. If you explode the thing there is basically no ledge snap at all until the descent/apex.
Your balloons only explode when someone a) hits them b) you up B again. For the balloon explosion to catch someone standing right on the ledge, you have to up special basically immediately, but you wont ledge snap immediately again so, they can shield this and aim to punish with a dtilt or possible run off B-air. If you delay it so you get the auto snap then your balloons wont hit them when it explodes.

The means of controlling them from standing on the edge is to put a timber counter sapling on the edge. If a timber counter sapling is on the edge, then you can well wait till it expires and catch him when he attempts to replant it. If he doesn't replant it you just make your way to the edge. Lloyd and slingshot can be dealt with the same as default.

Wii fit trainer probably doesn't even have to bother if she has her heavy knockback resistance Deep breathing custom. So long as the counter sapling isnt there the balloons knockback wont phase her anyways and with no ledge invincibility she'll just hit Villager.

Basically: Villager can choose early and late detonate. Early doesn't ledge snap but hits them on the edge. Late snaps but basically hits them where they would be if they get-up rolled. Rocket and Slingshot from the ledge already happen in default. Charizard can probably D-smash for instance on reaction to hit Villager regardless of his snap option. Pit would just stand on the inside given he has fast Smashes. Marth could stand on the inside for a runoff/trump B-air or would go the roll distance and possibly Fsmash if Villager goofs his ledge snap not that he'll really care regardless Marth has the speed to blow the entire thing open, and throwing away your ledge invincibility consistently would eventually end up in a Tipper Fsmash. Im almost positive Ike can hit tempest within time and if he does so Villager is basically dead since you'll get blown back. If you pop the balloons which don't ledge snap Ike gets a free...whatever the hell he wants (aka Tempest again).
Link, Toon Link, Samus can throw bombs. Jigglypuff will just weave under. Kirby will stone villager if not trump B-air. If its meteor stone this entire strategy might end up in sub 2 minute matches (for either side lol). Pikachu will already Tjolt or trump.Flipping Swordfighter will trump and sword fighter aerials are well suited for it. Given no ledge snap, Mario/Doc can gust cape or go for the B-air. Eh just a lot of characters that will B-air it. The problem with B-air is that they'll most likely trade which is dangerous since they then have to recover afterwards. Won't be a big deal to some characters.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Mii Sword whirlwind has half-decent range and pops people off the ledge if they have no ledge invulnerability. May be useful in screwing with this villager thing if you're careful around the sapling.

</Mii Sword sucks>

Are there any other projectiles with decent range that can screw up ledge-hoggers, or is it just Pikachu and Mii Sword? Maybe Mii Gunner grenade?

 

[Nobie]

What I find kind of funny about complaints over campiness and having games going to time is that this is how many actual sports end up. In a lot of sports, the only way to win is to be in the lead when the timer hits zero, and in certain sports such as boxing or MMA you have the choice between knockout/submission or win by decision.

I know solid defensive play in football/soccer is less exciting on the surface than two sides scoring goals back and forth, but people are accustomed to it and can even appreciate games like that. Games are often 1-0 scores because one side manages to get that one goal in and then they stifle the opponent's offense. In a basketball game if there's a minute left on the clock and one team is 10 points ahead, of course they're going to stall (of course, the shot clock was implemented to prevent pure stalling, so there is that).

The thing that keeps people from just stalling in just about any game is what we have in Smash as well: a large lead is easier to hold than a small one, and so you have to make the decision between going to try and widen the deficit, or you don't.

I also know that people do complain about boring games in sports too, but rarely are those sports somehow defined by that. Perhaps it has to do with the lack of visible physical activity that makes games such a target of criticism when people who play to the clock are just doing what millions of athletes do every day, in worlds where they don't necessarily have the option of KOing.

 

[Balgorxz]

m2k still acts like a teenager overeacting to these things, ADHD custom villager is lame, yes but HE can be easily be defeated by characters like pikachu ness shulk sheik that can go through the wall with projectiles or special abilities, hell even mii fighter could.
truth to be told smash 4 without customs is an incomplete game and we should never reach the decision of playing an uncomplete game by ourselves also ADHD and m2k don't play smash4 too much compared to the other smash games their decisions should not affect us that much even more if their real concern isn't the game they are affecting.

 

[thehard]

I knew I was going to wake up to a **** storm

 

[COLINBG]

I'm totally fine with stalling. After all, it's just a tactic like any other. The game doesn't revolve only around agressive play since a lot of the characters simply don't have the tools to rush down. Do you expect a Villager, a Toon Link or a Duck Hunt to simply go in and try to win with A moves? Do we want to ban certain characters just because of their campy nature? It's not all one dimensional, it was made with the intent of having different playstyles, and camping/stalling is one of them. The inclusion of the timer and the absence of Sudden Death in tournaments reinfroces that: it gives the possibility of stalling to players who want to, while still keeping it reasonable and pressuring the other player to do something. I don't see how it is any less valid than any other playstyle.

There's a difference between spamming and stalling. Spamming is generally bad and easily punishable. If you lose because the other player keeps repeating the same move over and over and you don't know how to adapt and counter it, it's your problem and you deserve to lose. Don't blame the other player or the game for it. If you lose because of smart stalling, it was a fair game, so there's also nothing to complain about. It just means the other player was better at keeping his distance and being safe than you are at pressuring. He's the better player, he wins.

I get it can be frustrating to play against because it's slower paced, but if you learn how to do it, and realise how much depths it adds because of all the mindgames going on, it's as much if not more fun than a normal match. It's exciting, because it forces each player to play perfectly. The player who is stalling has to take the best decisions possible, or he's going to get hit and lose his advantage. The player trying to hit him has to really think of what he is doing, and he has to be ''smarter'' than he usually is if he wants to gain back his advantage. There's a lot more tension in a game like this. The Dabuz/Abadango game at APEX is a perfect example of this; each player was really struggling to keep/get the advantage, and I think it was a great game.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Semantics. Not allowing customs = banning customs without using the word 'ban'. A cute attempt at PR, but that's about it.

Read Accountsdepts post again you misunderstood it.