Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

Jtails is a humble guy, happy for him.

 

[Blobface]

...it gets really frustrating to see a character I love get so much ire for having one move that lets her cover a huge weakness be used to troll everyone into screaming BAAAAAAN

I wouldn't take any talk of bans seriously at this point. 99% of "MANDATORY BANS" (notice the large quotation marks) are completely salt based and consequently don't hold water. Which is no surprise since salt dissolves in water.

Side note, what did Jtails say? I didn't watch the entire tournament.

 

[thehard]

I wouldn't take any talk of bans seriously at this point. 99% of "MANDATORY BANS" (notice the large quotation marks) are completely salt based and consequently don't hold water. Which is no surprise since salt dissolves in water.

Side note, what did Jtails say? I didn't watch the entire tournament.

Paraphrased: "Customs are great, they add more diversity and depth to the game, and player placements won't change much"
"Also, I saw what ADHD was doing and adapted"

 

[Emblem Lord]

Had alot of fun at KTAR. So many people giving ADHD a hard time. Villager is not unstoppable. There are over 40 chars in the game. I can think of ten chars off hand that can stop this with virtually no risk to themselves. Another ten that can stop it if they just play smart and dont over extend themselves.

This community is full of spineless weaklings.

I'm very close to never going to a tournament again because this showed me just how stupid and ugly this community is.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Jtails is a humble guy, happy for him.

If by humble you mean like this, then yes he is.
Honestly from a meh person in brawl using Meta Knight and Diddy, to now top player because of Diddy...
I will say he deserves something out of it all I guess since he started the Diddy trend when people like M2k and other top players were still thinking Sheik and Sonic were the truth.

 

[Blobface]

Had alot of fun at KTAR. So many people giving ADHD a hard time. Villager is not unstoppable. There are over 40 chars in the game. I can think of ten chars off hand that can stop this with virtually no risk to themselves. Another ten that can stop it if they just play smart and dont over extend themselves.

This community is full of spineless weaklings.

I'm very close to never going to a tournament again because this showed me just how stupid and ugly this community is.

Whoa, people at the tourney were being problematic? I know the chat was full of dips, but when is the chat not full of dips? I swear like 98% of people in the chat haven't even played smash before (exaggeration), and most of them definitely don't play competitively (not exaggeration).

 

[LiteralGrill]

Whoa, people at the tourney were being problematic? I know the chat was full of dips, but when is the chat not full of dips? I swear like 98% of people in the chat haven't even played smash before (exaggeration), and most of them definitely don't play competitively (not exaggeration).

I got a feeling a lot of people who were on the fence about customs or secretly deep down didn't want em probably used the opportunity to try and show they REALLY didn't want them. It sucks, but vocal angry mobs tend to change minds in the community sometimes. If someone really did decide to ban customs though, I hope they'd have better reasoning then that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whoa, people at the tourney were being problematic? I know the chat was full of dips, but when is the chat not full of dips? I swear like 98% of people in the chat haven't even played smash before (exaggeration), and most of them definitely don't play competitively (not exaggeration).

One dude yelled, "YOU ARE EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SMASH 4!!!!"

I could write a book on what is wrong with this game and not even a SINGLE chapter would be dedicated to campers I can ****ing promise you that.

 

[HeroMystic]

Whoa, people at the tourney were being problematic? I know the chat was full of dips, but when is the chat not full of dips? I swear like 98% of people in the chat haven't even played smash before (exaggeration), and most of them definitely don't play competitively (not exaggeration).

Honestly, when I played BC in tournament who employed this same strategy with Villager, I played it out with him, shook his hand, talked to my crewmates about it, then when he was about to play his next match I told him he had a solid Villager and I looked forward to playing him again. He told me I was literally the only person in a tournament to not be angry at him after the match.

Yeah, the salt is pretty real.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's twitch chat, I know Smash only been on the twitch train for not even 4 years, but come on. Never read that stuff or take what they say seriously.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

One dude yelled, "YOU ARE EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SMASH 4!!!!"

I could write a book on what is wrong with this game and not even a SINGLE chapter would be dedicated to campers I can ****ing promise you that.

At the tournament? In public? Good god, the struggle is really coming.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. I have pretty much every top player in NY/NJ on my facebook list and everyone is blowing up. Some call BS others say its legit. I have been defending ADHD thus far, but several big names are saying this tourney proves customs are jank.

I say the game is jank period, but thats another discussion entirely.

 

[HeroMystic]

At the tournament? In public? Good god, the struggle is really coming.

In public doesn't really matter because the hivemind generally has the same sentiment.

I'll be honest. It's tiring to fight a villager who ledgecamps. It's a lot of focus, and every percent counts, and the match mainly hinges on the first stock, and the absolute best way to win is to get the percent lead and never approach, ever.

However, I will respect the strategy. The game is what it is and we shouldn't be scrubs about it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The game isn't that jank, EL.

It's the people that are making it unbearable.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sinister Slush]

The game isn't that jank, EL.

It's the people that are making it unbearable.

Smooth Criminal

When the people make it unbearable this early in the meta, that doesn't prove it's a good thing.
Years from now we'll just be finding more and more ways to abuse something, while old things we abused before the game even hit 6 months of being out worked no longer work but looking back on em, wasn't as bad as current day. (just an example)

 

[thehard]

The game is so jank both players could stand still the whole match and time out with 0% each if they really wanted to. Terrible design.

 

[Strangelove13]

This villager that is supposed to be the ultimate campy character that will prove customs are broken got outcamped 3 times (by DEFAULT Pikachu, DEFAULT Bowser JR and Mii Brawler). After getting beaten he switched every single time to DEFAULT Diddy in game 2.

All this in his first tournament which is supposed to be the one where he takes everyone by surprise and wins by abusing the opponent's lack of knowledge. Even then he managed to get beaten 3 times by 3 different players who *gasp* adapted to his shenanigans and proved that it can indeed be beaten.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In public doesn't really matter because the hivemind generally has the same sentiment.

I'll be honest. It's tiring to fight a villager who ledgecamps. It's a lot of focus, and every percent counts, and the match mainly hinges on the first stock, and the absolute best way to win is to get the percent lead and never approach, ever.

However, I will respect the strategy. The game is what it is and we shouldn't be scrubs about it.

I told one of my opponents I didnt care if I won any of my matches. I just wanna have fun with custom Marth.

If I want to beat someone I will pick Sheik and roll away and throw needles the entire match, then punish when my opponent over commits.

His response was, "Hey, that's the game. Runaway is what wins."

 

[Blobface]

This whole thing is just a crappy attempt by a salty player to make people hate customs by providing a "perfect" (read:anecdotal) example of "why customs are bad". All it'll do is rustle everyone's jimmies for 10 minutes before we find some other "game breaking strat". The problem with "making an argument" with salt is that the moment something else comes up, everyone forgets about the previous "meta-destroying problem" completely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not saying runaway isn't strong. It is. But its nowhere near as strong as it was in the past games.

Just very different and much more complex with the addition of new chars with different strategies and options.

 

[thehard]

I don't even see why there's an issue: ADHD's opponents adapted and beat him, forcing the switch to Diddy 3 times. You can literally time out with any character if you really really wanted to. But it didn't WORK for him. As far as I'm concerned it's a gimmick.

 

[Nobie]

Watched some of @ Emblem Lord 's games, good stuff. Though, I really don't understand how Crescent Slash (which is really the big move for his custom Marth) is this game-ruining technique, anymore than uh, Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip, etc. etc.

 

[san.]

Sounds like confirmation bias to me. Counterplay from both sides has yet to develop. You may think a move is great/poor until you learn how it deals with other characters' moves.

It's probably not the most fun to play against, but Villager can kind of do this already with the default set. Going up in arms over dealing with a seemingly beatable, yet tedious strategy can be applied to other characters as well. Some characters may be invalidated a bit, but it was clearly shown that a simple character switch to those with tools to deal with it is possible as of this moment.

 

[Ffamran]

His response was, "Hey, that's the game. Runaway is what wins."

That. That defines a lot of games. Call of Duty, Battlefield, Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Assassin's Creed, Mario, Mega Man, Demon's/Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Street Fighter, etc. Hit and run strategies were a thing since humans existed and figured, "Hey, I don't think I can beat up a giant, freaking MAMMOTH!"

Every competitive game complains about camping, but hey, I wonder who's dying all the time to guerrilla warriors. The American Revolution had the US fighting guerrilla warfare, so did the Viet Cong in the Vietnam War, and pretty much a ton of wars since it works, okay, IT FREAKING WORKS. How about fighting fire with fire, huh? Or maybe, figure out how to exploit their camping. Or just ban the game. I mean, if people weren't such pansies, then the whole world would be like Fallout. I mean, why deal with campy fighters when you can drop nuclear bombs everywhere and while we're at it, why not kill a game, too? Oh, right, nuclear deterrence and no person in their right mind would make humans go if not almost extinct and a game isn't much.

It's a goddamned game, why the hell is there so much... Is this your life? If it is, then it's sad, all right? Pathetic, sad, just freaking sad. How about instead of complaining and whining, how about having fun and if you can't have fun, deal with it. If this game does become Camp Bros. for Camping and Tents, then don't go to tournaments, let them die and play against friends or whatever.

Villager can camp, but Villager can't glide the frick around like Meta Knight in Brawl. That's worse since there's no actual defense and since it's just "run the frick away and time the clock out like it's almost the end of your shift". Villager has to do something and even if it results in a slow match, someone can figure out something, especially if they've seen it before - like most of us - and they learned about it. It's active camping rather than passive camping like in CoD where people just sit in an isolated corner waiting and waiting and waiting. Someone out there has the reflexes to act when they see a dude in the corner and wreck them and that's not much than thinking about how to end Villager's camping game. There's a pattern, there's a moment, and there's a strategy to unravel Villager's.

 

[Emblem Lord]

CS depending on who Marth is fighting is a guaranteed kill at certain percents.

However as I said it's character dependent, DI dependent and this is the really important one...Very VERY dependent on Marths rage.

Grabbed a Diddy when I was at 50% and threw him forward. Little monkey went almost the full lengthFD, it was nuts.

 

[Blobface]

I don't even see why there's an issue: ADHD's opponents adapted and beat him, forcing the switch to Diddy 3 times. You can literally time out with any character if you really really wanted to. But it didn't WORK for him. As far as I'm concerned it's a gimmick.

There really isn't an issue. ADHD's entire point was to annoy the chat and others into being anti-custom. It's not an actual problem. It's just a cheap way to elicit a reaction.

Watched some of @ Emblem Lord 's games, good stuff. Though, I really don't understand how Crescent Slash (which is really the big move for his custom Marth) is this game-ruining technique, anymore than uh, Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip, etc. etc.

Uh, the "game ruining technique" was some silly edge-camping ADHD was doing with Villager to "prove" customs are bad.

Also, is there any way I could see EL's games before they're uploaded to youtube? I missed them and I'd really like to see Crescent Slash in action.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There really isn't an issue. ADHD's entire point was to annoy the chat and others into being anti-custom. It's not an actual problem. It's just a cheap way to elicit a reaction.

Uh, the "game ruining technique" was some silly edge-camping ADHD was doing with Villager to "prove" customs are bad.

Far as I know stream chat lost their **** when they saw my first match and ended an Ike at 83% with a true kill combo. IDK if they denounced the Hero-King or sung his praises, but my guess is a few people didn't like that grab confirm and thats what Nobies comment was about.

 

[Ffamran]

There really isn't an issue. ADHD's entire point was to annoy the chat and others into being anti-custom. It's not an actual problem. It's just a cheap way to elicit a reaction.

Uh, the "game ruining technique" was some silly edge-camping ADHD was doing with Villager to "prove" customs are bad.

ADHD could just have picked Sonic and camped and spammed Sonic's custom Spin Dash and Charges. That's worse since unlike setting up a camp, Sonic's just waiting there spinning and spinning. The sad part is ADHD's plan worked. Is there a rule against this? Purposely annoying the community?

 

[Unknownkid]

I told one of my opponents I didnt care if I won any of my matches. I just wanna have fun with custom Marth.

If I want to beat someone I will pick Sheik and roll away and throw needles the entire match, then punish when my opponent over commits.

His response was, "Hey, that's the game. Runaway is what wins."

Forget about it, Emblem Lord. You did awesome job with Custom Marth. Nairo was just something else.

ADHD could just have picked Sonic and camped and spammed Sonic's custom Spin Dash and Charges. That's worse since unlike setting up a camp, Sonic's just waiting there spinning and spinning. The sad part is ADHD's plan worked. Is there a rule against this? Purposely annoying the community?

Nope or else we won't have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T98uKLWpl9E

Chudat - The greatest troll in the history of Smash.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Emblem Lord should switch to swordfighter when he tires of custom marth

This villager that is supposed to be the ultimate campy character that will prove customs are broken got outcamped 3 times (by DEFAULT Pikachu, DEFAULT Bowser JR and Mii Brawler). After getting beaten he switched every single time to DEFAULT Diddy in game 2.

All this in his first tournament which is supposed to be the one where he takes everyone by surprise and wins by abusing the opponent's lack of knowledge. Even then he managed to get beaten 3 times by 3 different players who *gasp* adapted to his shenanigans and proved that it can indeed be beaten.

You could poke and run away all you want in pretty much any MU, so long as you have a lead. It's just generally not done because it is often (but not always) boring to play for a full match.

I respect a strong keep away game, silly that it went to ledge camping in a game that removes ledge invincibility. The strat can't work long-term by the games mechanics themselves.

 

[Strangelove13]

If this whole thing was to "prove" that customs are overpowered and bad I think he pretty much proved the opposite since the supposed campiest possible character got outcamped TWICE by DEFAULT characters and also when he lost he switched 3 times to a DEFAULT character to try to win.

If customs are so broken and overpowered why then switch to a default character? Perhaps all these people championing for banning customs should also be championing for banning default Diddy seeing as how he still won the tournament and proved superior to all these custom and supposedly "overpowered" "janky" and "gimmicky" characters.

 

[Timbers]

Far as I know stream chat lost their **** when they saw my first match and ended an Ike at 83% with a true kill combo. IDK if they denounced the Hero-King or sung his praises, but my guess is a few people didn't like that grab confirm and thats what Nobies comment was about.

anyone that mentioned CS were just surprised that it was even a thing, so it's good that custom Marth's potential received some visibility. rest of the comments were "marth>>>>>>ike confirmed kappa"

 

[Smooth Criminal]

This divisiveness is going to strangulate the community.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Emblem Lord]

Rofl no. Custom Marth vs Custom Ike is pretty even. Though overall Ike is superior due to a better match-up spread.

imo of course.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Ok, so I missed this tourney because essays to write and school, guess I'll have to rewatch later to know what everyone's popping off about Villager's Timber Counter.

Buuuut, no to LGL. wtf. I would much rather see customs banned as a whole than an LGL being implemented.

Look guys. I've been indifferent to customs ever since the release, and I still remain indifferent. But if this Timber counter bull is a problem, then either:
a) ban the move
b) ban customs

If customs does encourage degenerating play (degenerating != lame play) that is stupid to deal with, then just ban them all and lets continue to play the game without degenerating strategies.

Edit: I'll also add that everyone was complaining about DK's Cyclone... and then people learned to deal with it. We could alternatively also lab up and learn how to deal with Wobuffet Tree.

 

[Neoleo21]

Game is perfectly fine, in fact ultra fun with customs. Custom villager is the most painful char to fight in the game, the war of attrition is nasty unless you're on a traveling stage. Though Toon Link or link can just throw (short fuse or Meteor) bombs and he can't really do much because of no second grab invincibility. Meteor Bombs in particular can put villager in a terrible position below the stage since the main recovery portion of EBT can't sweetspot the ledge.

 

[Antonykun]

Well I can't wait for the offensive applications for TC

 

[Ffamran]

Nope or else we won't have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T98uKLWpl9E

Chudat - The greatest troll in the history of Smash.

Chudat did it troll while ADHD did it to **** people off. What Chudat did was both amazing and annoying while ADHD was just annoying.

 

[Nobie]

I think camping Villager in general is a double-edged sword, customs or no. Yeah if Villager gets the lead then he can hold onto it probably better than anyone, but if he falls behind he has to somehow make up that deficit with his very lopsided moveset. It's been months since it happened, but there was that online invitational hosted by Clash Tournaments where a Villager fought Zero's Diddy and just wasn't able to flip things around once he lost the life lead.

 

[thehard]

(That's Dapuffster)

I hate to like... gossip like this but all this discussion should be out in the open anyway. This is from ZeRo's FB page.