Character Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

i cant watch the stream anymore the chats giving me cancer.

"dk is the worst character" "meta knight is garbage"

I tend to tune in super late to these things for a variety of reasons so I just skip the live stream entirely and go to the VOD under past broadcasts. I hadn't really given it much thought but it's probably good for my sanity.

Also because I'm that kind of person I took a few notes on things the commentators said that were somewhat wrong:

Spoiler: Nitpicking Ahead

Gust Cape is not a straight buff.
-More startup
-Less damage (admittedly no one will care about this)

Penetrating Needles don't do the same damage as default.
-3 needle limit cuts full charge strength from 11% to 6%
-Per-needle strength is comparable, to be fair

Commentators still can't tell Luma's aerials apart lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

Gust Cape is not a straight buff.
-More startup
-Less damage (admittedly no one will care about this)

More start-up, less damage, more recovery upon use. That said, Gust Cape is still pretty much better than Super Cape for gimping, recovery, and mobility. As a pure reflector, Super Cape is the best Cape.

I keep telling Nyani to go to the Mario boards so she can actually learn this stuff.

 

[FSLink]

Can't watch the stream or archives at the moment but was the Villager just ledge stalling with Explosive Balloons upB?
Because you can beat it with a Ness PK Fire really easily. Castle Siege is also a good counterpick stage against custom Villager too.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It occurs to me that once @ZarroTsu finishes his spreadsheet here, we should try to spread it around as much as possible to commentators and the like so that maybe they can read up on what all the customs do. It's admittedly a lot and I'm almost certain the misinformation is due to lack of exposure, hard lab time, etc. more than anything. (Although that's getting rectified a bit nowadays. Slowly.)

Also permanent walkoff stages for hard counter to Villager ledgestall. /s

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The main issue is that SV's platform moves over the edge, and that just magnifies Helicopter Kick kills.

Its a truism that flows to Puff and Yoshi as well given their ability to position and overall air speed. Though Smashvilles platform magnifies kills in general, hell for Charizard/Pit's kill throws you'll die very early. I prefer Battlefield with Brawler, but then again I also prefer battlefield in general.

 

[S_B]

Ugh, Rosaluma is even better with customs...

 

[Antonykun]

I'll say it once and I'll say it a million times Villager is an AWFUL camper.
regardless how frustrating TC is she is at best getting you for 1-5% damage per hit, her movement speed is slow meaning that if you can get over TC + Slingshot, (It's called Full Hop air dodge btw) then she still has to deal with her weakness to pressure.
It's really really annoying hearing people complain about TC camping. It's still her aerials and edgeguarding that are the best things about her,Tc does cover her weak ground game though and many people are used to abusing that to beat her.

 

[Firefoxx]

This "spam thunder jolt" thing is pretty awfulmazing

Edit: Also, I can't believe that the Diddy main hates customs. That's so shocking to me.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ugh, Rosaluma is even better with customs...

Been saying she's the best with customs for a while now. I really think EVO ruleset favors her and I'd be surprised if Rosalina doesn't win evo.

I'm not sure what your watching but Rosalina's potential with customs is pretty absurd and she's only going to get better the deeper Rosalina players dive into her. I expect their to be a lot of salt flowing from people because of her.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm glad ADHD is doing this now, cause we will fabricate this in less than a month lol(its already figured out for most chars).

 

[Smog Frog]

I'll say it once and I'll say it a million times Villager is an AWFUL camper.
regardless how frustrating TC is she is at best getting you for 1-5% damage per hit, her movement speed is slow meaning that if you can get over TC + Slingshot, (It's called Full Hop air dodge btw) then she still has to deal with her weakness to pressure.
It's really really annoying hearing people complain about TC camping. It's still her aerials and edgeguarding that are the best things about her,Tc does cover her weak ground game though and many people are used to abusing that to beat her.

how is villager an awful camper? isnt s/he the lord of tents?

 

[Antonykun]

how is villager an awful camper? isnt s/he the lord of tents?

I'll admit Villagers come camping in animal crossing from time to time. But the villager/player character herself never camps...
Granted she also never jumps and is always seen as someone who runs every where which is the opposite of Smash 4 Villager.

 

[S_B]

Were there any Bowser players in this tournament at all?

 

[thehard]

Were there any Bowser players in this tournament at all?

Yes, one that beat a Sheik

 

[HeavyLobster]

Banning Timber Counter would be a scrubby thing to do, as it's not broken and completely beatable, but if we don't it's going to mean a lot of timeouts and b****ing that timeouts are the worst possible thing that could ever happen in a fighting game and that any MUs where it's optimal to play for a timeout automatically render your game uncompetitive trash. I hope the community can be mature and accept that timeouts are a legitimate strategy in fighting games and learn to adapt, but I have no confidence that it will happen and expect people to just b**** and moan until TC gets banned.

 

[thehard]

ZeRo says he doesn't believe Villager's customs are the problem, the lack of LGL is

 

[Nidtendofreak]

LGL was considered a legit way to "fix MK"

No reason why we can't just throw it at people if they start whining about ledge camping.

 

[Antonykun]

ZeRo says he doesn't believe Villager's customs are the problem, the lack of LGL is

Whats lgl?

 

[Quickhero]

@ Antonykun Ledge grab limit.

Personally, I think we need more time before we can tell we need such things. It's only been one tournament where we've seen Villager pull this off, we really need to make sure we gain more experience from it before we make any rules that may end up being over something completely manageable.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No. We do not need a LGL for this game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I mean, aside from ADHD, this has been a fun custom tournament. I do think an LGL is necessary if people like ADHD feel like abusing it, and in this early stage of the game people just don't seem to have the confidence to challenge his sort of camping.

And hey, what do we lose if an LGL is implemented anyways?

 

[Dre89]

I'll say it once and I'll say it a million times Villager is an AWFUL camper.
regardless how frustrating TC is she is at best getting you for 1-5% damage per hit, her movement speed is slow meaning that if you can get over TC + Slingshot, (It's called Full Hop air dodge btw) then she still has to deal with her weakness to pressure.
It's really really annoying hearing people complain about TC camping. It's still her aerials and edgeguarding that are the best things about her,Tc does cover her weak ground game though and many people are used to abusing that to beat her.

How is her camping not good. She covers the air with slingshot and rockets and you can't approach from the ground becayse of tree

This is ontop of her good normals

 

[FSLink]

You know who doesn't care about the sapling and explosive balloons? Custom DK.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ike can probably throw out tempest and end Villagers life if he tries to ledge camp. if he stands about one character distance away. You can cover it with a sampling tree, but you also have to come back to replant the tree...

 

[Antonykun]

How is her camping not good. She covers the air with slingshot and rockets and you can't approach from the ground becayse of tree

This is ontop of her good normals

Reward...
Also slingshots are snuffed by half of everyone's moveset

 

[LiteralGrill]

And hey, what do we lose if an LGL is implemented anyways?

The integrity of our entire ruleset.

 

[S_B]

Yes, one that beat a Sheik

Dammit. I must've missed it. I'll have to watch it later...

Was he using dash slash?

 

[Sinister Slush]

The integrity of our entire ruleset.

The integrity of the ruleset was thrown out the window when 2 stock 6/5 minutes became standard.

 

[Unknownkid]

No. We do not need a LGL for this game.

Smooth Criminal

Agreed! Why do we need LGL when Ledges no longer give invincibility after the first ledge grab? Look - that Villager setup isn't broken, its lame. Most of the custom cast can do something against it. For example, Kirby has Giant Hammer and Meteor Stone. Heck, Swordfighter can beat him with just Gale Strike or if you are good Stone Scabbard. The setup is a gimmick (no offense to you true Villager mains).

 

[LiteralGrill]

The integrity of the ruleset was thrown out the window when 2 stock 6/5 minutes became standard.

Well, let's keep what shreds are left then. That, or fight until it's changed. If enough players refused to enter 2 stock tournaments, it would change. The thing there is, it's unlikely to happen (tons of people don't care either way on stock counts honestly).

 

[Sinister Slush]

The thing there is, it's unlikely to happen (tons of people don't care either way on stock counts honestly).

You've never been to TX and EU then.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You've never been to TX and EU then.

Y'know, about Texas. I could say something about Xyro and jokes...

...but I won't.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sinister Slush]

That Xyro is a GENIUS?
But honestly 3 stock 8/9 minutes > 2 stock 6/5 minutes.

 

[thehard]

Dammit. I must've missed it. I'll have to watch it later...

Was he using dash slash?

Nope, all default IIRC. But it worked out for him

 

[Antonykun]

Agreed! Why do we need LGL when Ledges no longer give invincibility after the first ledge grab. Look that Villager setup isn't broken, its lame. Most of the custom cast can do something against it. For example, Kirby has Giant Hammer and Meteor Stone. Heck, Swordfighter can beat him with just Gale Strike or if you are good Stone Scabbard. The setup is a gimmick (no offense to you true Villager mains).

Like seriously none taken.
most top tiers have a burst move option that gives a middle finger to the plant. Other characters have better camping and or avoidance tactics to out camp her.
If you still can't deal with him then camp her back. If she's dumb enough to still be behind that plant after you out camp her, and you will out camp her if you play anyone with a spammy projectile you can laugh as she does nothing to your shield

...it gets really frustrating to see a character I love get so much ire for having one move that lets her cover a huge weakness be used to troll everyone into screaming BAAAAAAN

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That Xyro is a GENIUS?
But honestly 3 stock 8/9 minutes > 2 stock 6/5 minutes.

He's hardly what I call genius material.

At least I kind of agree with the latter, and if ya'll are running events like that down there, good for you.

That said, about LGLs: Again, why. Camping the ledge in this game is nowhere near as strong as it was in Brawl. You stand a great chance of trading after they regrab and pretty much resetting the whole situation. Furthermore, you got ledge trumping.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Smog Frog]

ayy when evo comes around i have a plan:

pay either jtails or zero to eliminate dabuz.

real talk is it possible to exploit olimar's pikmin with the banana? (apparently when a pikmin brings a banana back to olimar he trips)
or is that too impractical

 

[Sinister Slush]

No, it can happen quite a bit if Olimar players don't pay attention since Pikmin grab items on the ground after being thrown.

 

[Ffamran]

No, it can happen quite a bit if Olimar players don't pay attention since Pikmin grab items on the ground after being thrown.

This also happens in Pikmin games in general. "Cool, the day ended- Wait... How did I lose 1 Pikmin? STEEEEEEEVE! DAMMIT, STEVE! YOU HAD ONE JOB! ONE JOB! AND THAT WAS GET BACK TO THE BASE!"

Hmm, can Pikmin grab stuff like Mechakoopa even when it's active?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Leave it to Jtails to keep players rationalized with his wisdom at the end of the tournament. I appreciate that. We now see the terrible potential of Villager's, so we can only see where this goes from there.

Jtails probably helped our cause more than any of us realize.