Character Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Customs should be allowed to a degree because it gives a good portion of the cast the opportunity to do better competitively instead of having to wait 5-6 years for a new installment and hoping they're better in the next game. I feel like customs are a godsend for low/mid tier characters. There's plenty of evidence that are vastly helped by them, for example, and that's exciting because it adds a new dimension to this game and keeps a lot of characters from just simply being written off as "bad."

Please put Marth on that list custom marth is serious bidness.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Please put Marth on that list custom marth is serious bidness.

I don't think the purpose of his post was to list all the characters who benefit most from customs.

 

[Djent]

I'm still catching up on everything that happened, as I was at work for all of KTAR. Correct me if I'm wrong:

1) Janky camping strategy mostly doesn't work
2) Default wins the entire tournament
3) Top players want the janky strat banned

I'd be angry if the anti-customs backlash wasn't so transparently motivated by a visceral reaction to certain playstyles. I guess that's what happens when your one really strong argument gets countered by good community organization.

 

[Timbers]

Melee would need an LGL if anyone "good enough" was willing. M2K had reason to stop because of the negative publicity it had on his social media prospects

This is probably a good enough reason to expect high profile players to avoid "lame" strategies going into the future, such as Villager ledgestall. It threatens their business, and likely their income from any fanbase they may have.

Could be wrong seeing as M2K was definitely no stranger to ledgestalling, but it's a much less subtle transition to pick up a whole new character (Villager) solely to exploit stalling. Assuming Villager's ledgestall was something broken, which it is (very likely) not.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

It's still funny to me that Villager lost on multiple occasions by being timed out when he tried to time people out.

 

[Luigi player]

I wish people would actually try harder to get better themselves and beat something instead of always wanting to ban everything that seems too good at the first few glances.

I really enjoyed playing against MKs in Brawl and I really enjoy playing against Diddy in Smash4, because they're a nice challenge to have, even though Sheik is harder to beat and more annoying as an enemy and ultimately better than Diddy, imo (obviously I also like to play against / beat Sheik, it's just way more stressful than most other MUs).

I still see top players not DIing or reacting to Diddys dthrow correctly, for example.

Spoiler: more to that...

Yes, it can be done fast and sometimes you might not be able to react to it.. but most of the time -> learn to react to it faster / more consistent.
You got dthrown by Diddy Kong and he tries to follow up with an uair where it could KO you... please DI behind Diddy and remember to hold away since vectoring works even while you're experiencing the knockback-flight, and mash jump - don't airdodge. If you airdodge you give Diddy the opportunity to land an uair after the airdodge. If you try to jump away you'll almost always be able to either DI the uair if it can still connect (if you're at high % and Diddy is at low %) or you can jump away in time. There could be a window where it truly connects and you die from it, but then it's very slim and most likely won't occur. To DI the uair just keep holding away like while you're trying to DI / vector the dthrow. If he fairs, quickly put the controlstick in the other direction to vector against that.

I'm not saying Diddy is easy to deal with or that this is a foolproof thing against him, it's just something I noticed very very many players do wrong and die from, even though they could've avoided it easily.

Why don't people have the ambitions to play a MU 1000 times in the hyperbolic time chamber to finally be able to overcome it instead of just whining about how overpowered something is and wanting to get rid of it?


At first it was Diddy, now it's some customs. I agree that some customs are kinda stupid, but that's a problem of customs themselves and I see them as something casual. If people want to play with them just do it, but why complain about everything again? It's a little unfair to take away certain customs from characters and not from all of them. Every character has the right to possibly be good if you're allowing these tools. You don't think about arbitrarily taking away Sheiks needles or Diddys bananas in the normal game, so why with customs? Because it's easy to implement and they're just an additional possible move to use? How many matches and times were they even tested?

Are you losing and whine about it being too overpowered? Get better instead of wanting to get it banned.


I feel like one of the negative points to all the diffusion Smash is experiencing right now is this: people who are (maybe even just watching) are forming together to hate on something "op" which really hurts the scene.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

ugh are we still on this? lets talk about jiggs or somthing.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This is probably a good enough reason to expect high profile players to avoid "lame" strategies going into the future, such as Villager ledgestall. It threatens their business, and likely their income from any fanbase they may have.

This. We actually have something that could level the playing field that doesn't involve bans or making mods and I can see why some high tier players would be against it. Nobody really wants to share the spotlight and it's understandable that people would rather take a handful of matchups really seriously than a whole bunch. In a wonderfully ironic way, customs could potentially force more high tier players to start thinking more like how low tier players typically think. In short, it makes things harder for them even if it could potentially make things more fair all around.

 

[thehard]

The saddest part to me regarding this whole ordeal is seeing the vicious, pointless anti-Smash 4 comments on M2K's Facebook and realizing, no, these are not all trolls and falseflaggers, they're real people that hold these opinions. Sad.

 

[Timbers]

It's still funny to me that Villager lost on multiple occasions by being timed out when he tried to time people out.

It still may be a viable method. I don't know how much effort ADHD actually put into playing Villager (I'd believe very little if his only point to play Villager was to try and be toxic), and it's important to note the MUs he did lose. Nobody has any experience against Brawler in the US, and Jtails is arguably a much better player than ADHD (I think Jtails 2 stocked ADHD's Diddy in dittos?).

A lot of things are up in the air right now.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The saddest part to me regarding this whole ordeal is seeing the vicious, pointless anti-Smash 4 comments on M2K's Facebook and realizing, no, these are not all trolls and falseflaggers, they're real people that hold these opinions. Sad.

And on /r/smashbros too. This is a direct quote from someone after I said that EVO is disallowing on-site custom creation so we used AA's project, here's a link, etc.

That is so stupid. So the few people who had the time and knew to post on their character boards got to decide what's available for use in a HUGE tournament? Rather than just pre-setting the most common ones and leaving one or two blank for those who prefer something else? I use Fox 3331 and that's what I prefer. I won't settle for 3231 because that's not what I practice with. Wow. That's how you ruin a great ****ing idea!

The vitriol is real and it disturbs me.

 

[thehard]

On the brighter side of things, ESAM is playing again?? http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427

 

[NachoOfCheese]

ugh are we still on this? lets talk about jiggs or somthing.

Jigglypuff's Fair WOP is incredible. In fact, just forward air in general. And all the other aerials. The damage output the puff has is actually really good. Reminds me of Luigi in a lotta ways, except with the fastest air speed in the game and like, 6 (?) jumps. Bair kills early, too. Jig's edgeguarding is top-notch, too. So many lingering hitboxes and such an awesome recovery have me believe that Jigglypuff has numerous advantageous matchups vs characters with linear recoveries (usually). Probably among Falcon's worst matchups, especially with that tiny hurtbox + crouch shenanigans. The playstyle that works the most for me is weaving in and out, baiting the opponent, and punishing. Also, she can crouch under most projectiles.
Her extremely light weight, while useful for avoiding combos and whatnot, really screws her over a lot. If the opponent is in rage and you have more than 40%, you're in trouble.
Overall, solid character, imo. Seems like an awesome pocket character to have, but you gotta stay safe. I'm confident that for these reasons, she can be very viable if played correctly.

 

[Antonykun]

How about we talk about Swordfighter?
uhhh...
Someone quickly explain to me
Brawler vs Swordfighter

 

[Road Death Wheel]

How about we talk about Swordfighter?
uhhh...
Someone quickly explain to me
Brawler vs Swordfighter

"THE FIST IS GREATER THAN THE SWORD!"

 

[Ffamran]

"THE FIST IS GREATER THAN THE SWORD!"

And this, folks, explains why Ganondorf doesn't use his sword.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

And this, folks, explains why Ganondorf doesn't use his sword.

dorf knows whats up.

 

[Antonykun]

"THE FIST IS GREATER THAN THE SWORD!"

But doesn't brawler primarily use his feet?
Helicopter kick Soaring axe kick all down b's onslaught burning drop kick all aerials f/d tilt Falcon punch
Why is their icon a fist again?
I'm going to assume Brawler id going to control the pace of the match until Swordfighter lands a combo starter (yes he has combos)

 

[Ffamran]

dorf knows whats up.

Considering how powerful his Utilt, Up Smash, Uair, Dark Fists, and how far his Dark Dive uppercut reaches, it's no surprise. Speaking of up, I haven't seen a Sonic run any of the Spring Jump customs.

 

[Nobie]

This isn't exactly a truly competitive impression, but every time I decide to try out a new character, labbing in training mode and then having some online matches, they always end up feeling so satisfying to use. The only one who's felt less awesome so far is Bowser Jr. and I think it's more me than him.

Like for example today I decided to try out Kirby on a whim, and seeing everything that can follow up from a trip, including stolen powers. Trip into Forward Smash, trip into Charge Shot, trip into Giant Punch, BUSTER trip into Forward Smash (which you can do at higher percents due to the decreased knockback).

To be more on topic, what do people think of the Kirby vs. Jigglypuff matchup? On paper I feel like Jigglypuff should have the edge but I have my reservations for some reason I can't quite explain. It might have to do with Kirby's raw kill power compared to Jiggs.

 

[Blobface]

Ok first of all
I try to type "Jigglypuff"
Auto correct changes it to "Jiggly UFC"
What even.
Jigglypuff seems to be a character who does great against other light weights and combo heavy characters, but against big slow heavies she dies soooooooooo early.

 

[Ffamran]

So, Triple D can sort of bait a grab reset and Gordos are like traps, right? I just don't see a lot of Triple D gameplay, so I don't know much about him. Still, this Triple D is wack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49tjbd9u0A.

 

[Conda]

Semantics. Not allowing customs = banning customs without using the word 'ban'. A cute attempt at PR, but that's about it.

The point of the poster you quoted was that M2K wasn't saying "all customs should be banned", he said "not all customs should be allowed", meaning "not every custom should be legal." He thinks this combo presents problems. That is a much more sensible position and not as extreme as people are making it out to be.

We can disagree, but lets not get hyperbolic and make our heads explode over community outrage event #712.

 

[Zephil]

So, Triple D can sort of bait a grab reset and Gordos are like traps, right? I just don't see a lot of Triple D gameplay, so I don't know much about him. Still, this Triple D is wack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49tjbd9u0A.

dat dthrow - uair lol "combo"

 

[Xuan Wu]

I think Jigglypuff is solid. Air game is undoubtedly strong. Her most difficult match-ups are probably against those whose attacks greatly out-range her own, such as swords and projectiles.

Anyway, here are a few character impressions I'm curious about:

1. Is Toon Link still considered superior to Link in SSB4, going from SSBB? I remember there being much hype surrounding the latter especially, due to the large number of buffs he received. Recently, I haven't heard much from this character. Has this hype died down?

2. Although SmashWiki is unreliable, something has been bothering me for a while now, specifically with Ike. How true would you guys say the following is?

• The majority of Ike's attacks have less reach because of reduced hitbox sizes and altered placements.

Majority? I have asked this at the Ike boards some time ago but even they were uncertain about it. I thought only his F-air had its range reduced. Not sure how the editor came to this conclusion. Was Ragnell shortened? Maybe Ike's new muscular frame made it look shorter?

^-^

 

[ChronoPenguin]

How about we talk about Swordfighter?
uhhh...
Someone quickly explain to me
Brawler vs Swordfighter

Cape Helicopter Kick.
Match is 110:0 in Swordfighters favor.

 

[Antonykun]

Cape Helicopter Kick.
Match is 110:0 in Swordfighters favor.

I kind of wonder how cape and Feint kick interact

 

[ZarroTsu]

I'm sincerely considering Mii Sword may be a Diddy Kong counter, specifically Gale Strike. Destroys bananas, prevents Diddy's frontal approach. If he gets too close for Gale Strike to get out safely, dtilt or spotdodge. Or Falcon Kick if you have it, possibly.

This is probably a terrible idea and I've only beaten one Diddy out of one with Mii Sword. Dude was salty tho.

 

[Blobface]

So, Triple D can sort of bait a grab reset and Gordos are like traps, right? I just don't see a lot of Triple D gameplay, so I don't know much about him. Still, this Triple D is wack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49tjbd9u0A.

I swear Ffamran, how in the world do you manage to find the best videos of every character in the game? Does Falco just lay video-eggs for you?

Joking aside, while Fox is like, lightweight-combo-food man, I'm curious how reliable that combo is. Does it only work on easily comboable characters like fox?

 

[Antonykun]

I'm sincerely considering Mii Sword may be a Diddy Kong counter, specifically Gale Strike. Destroys bananas, prevents Diddy's frontal approach. If he gets too close for Gale Strike to get out safely, dtilt or spotdodge. Or Falcon Kick if you have it, possibly.

This is probably a terrible idea and I've only beaten one Diddy out of one with Mii Sword. Dude was salty tho.

Just remember Diddy can see Gale strike since the Smash 64 and can just block it and punish you for it.

@ Ffamran should search for Swordfighter vids

 

[ZarroTsu]

Gale Strike seems to shield poke after a bit of pressure, and if used correctly they'll be too far way to punish you. Or you can condition them with multiple Gales and run in to grab them if you're feeling risky (don't do this very often).

 

[Antonykun]

Gale Strike seems to shield poke after a bit of pressure, and if used correctly they'll be too far way to punish you. Or you can condition them with multiple Gales and run in to grab them if you're feeling risky (don't do this very often).

The problem with that is that the opponent is always close enough to punish as Swordfighter is really lacking in get off me moves

 

[Nobie]

Does it bother anyone else that Swordfighter's cape is Down B and not Side B? Every other move taken from other characters at least matches their inputs. I just feel like being able to walk while throwing out capes would be so much nicer for Sword.

Maybe set C-stick to specials?

 

[ramskick]

I think Jigglypuff is solid. Air game is undoubtedly strong. Her most difficult match-ups are probably against those whose attacks greatly out-range her own, such as swords and projectiles.

Anyway, here are a few character impressions I'm curious about:

1. Is Toon Link still considered superior to Link in SSB4, going from SSBB? I remember there being much hype surrounding the latter especially, due to the large number of buffs he received. Recently, I haven't heard much from this character. Has this hype died down?

2. Although SmashWiki is unreliable, something has been bothering me for a while now, specifically with Ike. How true would you guys say the following is?

• The majority of Ike's attacks have less reach because of reduced hitbox sizes and altered placements.

Majority? I have asked this at the Ike boards some time ago but even they were uncertain about it. I thought only his F-air had its range reduced. Not sure how the editor came to this conclusion. Was Ragnell shortened? Maybe Ike's new muscular frame made it look shorter?

^-^

I can't speak much for Ike but I play a decent amount of Link as a secondary and a good friend of mine mains Toon Link. Honestly Toon Link is still better. Link has better kill power (barely) and is a little bit stronger overall but Toon Link's far superior speed and survivability still make him better. Link is better in this game than in previous iterations, but Toon Link is still better, though I'm not sure I'd put either character above C+/B-.

 

[ZarroTsu]

The problem with that is that the opponent is always close enough to punish as Swordfighter is really lacking in get off me moves

Slash Launcher's decent if you pull it out at zero charge. Kind of weird that all of Sword's applicable 'get off me' moves just sorta pop the enemy straight up. I mean fairing them is alright and all but air dodges are a thing. (And let's be real a good opponent will, sadly, never get killed by uair in spite of how strong a kill move it is)

E: Hero Spin's alright too, but whiffing it hurts a lot.

Does it bother anyone else that Swordfighter's cape is Down B and not Side B?

What, and give Mii Sword a useful down+b? Pssssh.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I can't speak much for Ike but I play a decent amount of Link as a secondary and a good friend of mine mains Toon Link. Honestly Toon Link is still better. Link has better kill power (barely) and is a little bit stronger overall but Toon Link's far superior speed and survivability still make him better. Link is better in this game than in previous iterations, but Toon Link is still better, though I'm not sure I'd put either character above C+/B-.

dunno if i agree link has kill confirms off of jab. thats a big deal.

 

[Unknownkid]

Cape Helicopter Kick.
Match is 110:0 in Swordfighters favor.

Easier said than done. I feel Reversal Slash is hard to land than Mario's Cape.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Reversal Slash's range is awful. If they do hand out buffs to Mii sword, at least one of them needs to be either a range buff or a duration buff to that move.

 

[Charls]

I was there to see that DDD play and although I'll vouch for his skill, the player he was up against was making some questionable choices. Most likely it was a combination of him simply not knowing the matchup and using Fox, which was not his main. Mad props were given to the DeDeDe player for his off stream matches though, particularly one against a Mario that wanted to play super safe and refused to approach for the most part. He kept reflecting Gordos with fireballs and the DDD just did not care; he kept chucking them and eventually got the percent lead which led to a time-out. My opinion on the character certainly changed that day in spite of the various matchups he loses.

The Tink vs. Link debate is interesting because of how much closer to each other in terms of viability they seem to be in this game. Tink's thing is that, although his game in general was nerfed, he can still safely confirm kills from projectiles and has a relatively small frame coupled with a disjoint. Link can kill much earlier and has those wonderful jab cancels, but his larger frame can be a nuisance. They both seem to share the same inexistent mid-range game problem and that's it for the most part. Both of them will probably end up around the same area in future tier lists, with Link higher most likely. Jab1 is way 2 gud tbh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can't speak much for Ike but I play a decent amount of Link as a secondary and a good friend of mine mains Toon Link. Honestly Toon Link is still better. Link has better kill power (barely) and is a little bit stronger overall but Toon Link's far superior speed and survivability still make him better. Link is better in this game than in previous iterations, but Toon Link is still better, though I'm not sure I'd put either character above C+/B-.

What matchups does Toon Link do better in than Link?

I'm honestly not so sure I agree with TL being better than Link. Among most of the cast, TL is someone who was nerfed very significantly by ledge mechanic changes. It basically leaves him with nothing to edgeguard with given he has virtually nothing good for hitting low offstage, while everyone else who doesn't worry about getting edgehogged anymore can take advantage of his relatively linear recovery. So TL actually doesn't really beat Link in survivability by much, if at all really. They both have mediocre recoveries, but Link is heavier than TL, and especially after TL's D-air nerf, Link actually is better able to mix up his landing even in situations where he doesn't have a Bomb to cover himself.

Link at least has a real edgeguard game with D-air and N-air actually being very good options offstage. Neither of them are very strong at juggling given they commit heavily to aerials that have fairly telegraphed applications given they both lack a real way to hit things diagonally above them, and both of them have terrible throws, TL being marginally better off with his stronger B-throw for KOs compared to Link's U-throw.

Link also has KO confirms in Jab and to a smaller extent first hit of B-air, something TL really doesn't have either.

Currently, I would rank Link and Toon Link among the bottom 15 members of the cast, given they suffer from certain important weaknesses. Both are firstoff fairly weak in the negative state. Neither can really do anything in midrange except Bomb toss and Dashgrab, especially since their aerials are generally speaking not very safe for approaching. Both have terrible grab reward. The last two are especially important because it means shielding in midrange often puts these characters in a significant disadvantage. But I would say Link overall comes out ahead because he's heavier and actually has an edgeguard game.