Character Competitive Impressions

[Plain Yogurt]

Kirby is also a pretty big fan of customs, imo. Jumping Inhale, Upper Cutter, and arguably Wave Cutter are straight upgrades and he's got solid choices of hammers and stones as well. None of them beyond Jumping Inhale help his mediocre approach too much, but he has options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sorry, didn't really mean to make it sound like a, "I want to play x but everyone says he sucks" type of deal.

I just think it's strange that people's opinion of Marth (and Lucina) has dwindled over time since the game has been out. I only ask here because, well, that's part of the point of this thread. It's fine though, I did a search for the most recent postings on it and was sated. No harm, no foul.

It's not strange.

Thats called evolution of the metagame.

The more **** people figure out, the more the community can see the limitations in some characters.

If it makes you feel better, they have mostly even match-ups only losing to top tiers and maybe Dedede. They don't have any match worse then 4-6 really. But they don't beat anyone either. I don't feel they beat one character in the game, except maybe G&W.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe.

That's not a good look.

 

[David Viran]

It severely limits her options, and thus telegraphs what viable moves she can even throw out. Fox suffers from this as well, losing every option outside of DA and late sh nair. Angled ftilt, dtilt, and smashes will obviously hit, but all of these moves are heavily punished on shield ( I think in Fox's case, Kirby's dtilt also outranges Fox's dtilt/angled ftilt...and Kirby dtilt also gets much more % potential )

When you can severely limit options by simply throwing out crouches, you force the opponent to become predictable at a very low cost, while always being in an advantageous position.


His range is still not great and he has overall bad frame data outside of jabs/tilts/bair. Should he find himself in a MU where range, zoning, and superior aerial games are not against him, I think he does very well, and crouch is also a powerful tool. Unfortunately, most of the viable cast does a very good job at keeping him out or just outranging anything he does.

I'm just questioning how much this really does affect MU's. I have yet to see crouching have as much influence in a match as is being said. I just heard about BengalsRZ zss vs gimrs G&W and BengalsRZ 3-0 him.

 

[Brinzy]

It's not strange.

Thats called evolution of the metagame.

The more **** people figure out, the more the community can see the limitations in some characters.

If it makes you feel better, they have mostly even match-ups only losing to top tiers and maybe Dedede. They don't have any match worse then 4-6 really. But they don't beat anyone either. I don't feel they beat one character in the game, except maybe G&W.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe.

That's not a good look.

See, that's why I find it kinda funny. You say that they may not have a match worse than 4-6, which is believable. On the other hand, I could name like... four to five matchups that are probably an easy 3:7 for Zelda, but somehow people think she's still a decent character that has more potential than Marth. That's mostly why I was slightly bemused.

Either way, I would not have guessed that they don't have any real advantageous matchups. Thanks for that insight, sir. I just got Crescent Slash Marth yesterday, so I need to give that a go, especially with the combos you linked the other day.

 

[|RK|]

It severely limits her options, and thus telegraphs what viable moves she can even throw out. Fox suffers from this as well, losing every option outside of DA and late sh nair. Angled ftilt, dtilt, and smashes will obviously hit, but all of these moves are heavily punished on shield ( I think in Fox's case, Kirby's dtilt also outranges Fox's dtilt/angled ftilt...and Kirby dtilt also gets much more % potential )

When you can severely limit options by simply throwing out crouches, you force the opponent to become predictable at a very low cost, while always being in an advantageous position.

Right. I was playing a ZSS recently on FG. They did pretty well, actually, compared to all of the other ZSSs I've played. But when I was up a stock with a percent lead, I could crouch without them being able to do anything safely. Completely nullifying grab game and ranged Paralyzer is huge.

 

[Emblem Lord]

See, that's why I find it kinda funny. You say that they may not have a match worse than 4-6, which is believable. On the other hand, I could name like... four to five matchups that are probably an easy 3:7 for Zelda, but somehow people think she's still a decent character that has more potential than Marth. That's mostly why I was slightly bemused.

Either way, I would not have guessed that they don't have any real advantageous matchups. Thanks for that insight, sir. I just got Crescent Slash Marth yesterday, so I need to give that a go, especially with the combos you linked the other day.

Oh, Zelda definitely not better than Marth.

Japanese tier list is uhh..whats that word?

Oh yeah.

Nonsense.

 

[David Viran]

Right. I was playing a ZSS recently on FG. They did pretty well, actually, compared to all of the other ZSSs I've played. But when I was up a stock with a percent lead, I could crouch without them being able to do anything safely. Completely nullifying grab game and ranged Paralyzer is huge.

It does not completely nullify grab game it still grabs at the end and paralyzer is a slow moving projectile and I feel it's still better to PS if you can. Look at high level zss players nairo doesn't even use paralyzer much at all.

 

[Timbers]

I'm just questioning how much this really does affect MU's. I have yet to see crouching have as much influence in a match as is being said. I just heard about BengalsRZ zss vs gimrs G&W and BengalsRZ 3-0 him.

It's hard to say. G&W is still not a great character, and I don't know their skill gaps. I do know that GimR DA'd into a fully charged paralyzer and got upB killed at 70% though lol.

I don't know how effective G&W's crouch is though. He loses his low profile if he tries to dtilt, whereas Kirby remains very close to the ground.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Its a pain in that none of the three can crawl, if they crawled while maintaining that height....
There is a handful of things that are hard to quantify in their MU significance, but its part of why Frame data isn't everything and why sometimes we're losing MU's we swear we'd win because we aren't accounting all the variables.

 

[Nobie]

Also I know its completly random but ima put out and say samus's slip bomb is garbage. go normal bomb or big bomb.

This might just my training mode testing, but i think slip bomb has some applications. You probably know this already, but the bomb won't send you into ball form if you attack during it, so I think it's meant to act as a quick mixup or trap. Drop a bomb, throw out a jab/ftilt/down smash/charge shot, whatever. If they get caught by the bomb, they're likely going to get hit by the next part. If not, they still have to deal with the attack you threw out.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This might just my training mode testing, but i think slip bomb has some applications. You probably know this already, but the bomb won't send you into ball form if you attack during it, so I think it's meant to act as a quick mixup or trap. Drop a bomb, throw out a jab/ftilt/down smash/charge shot, whatever. If they get caught by the bomb, they're likely going to get hit by the next part. If not, they still have to deal with the attack you threw out.

i would be fine if samus's jab was conventional but using any other move is terribly risky. Big bomb is my personal prefference due to better space control.

 

[Shaya]

There's definitely some variation to my 500 instances of "Marth sucks".
:3

But people always ask the same questions. "Why is Marth suddenly bad in this game?". Or they say something stupid like Lucina is better/not terrible and it's like UGHHH. They never ask what Marth can do, or what he's meant to do in his bad situations, EL goes for heart strings and I go for the jugular when anything of it comes up~

At some point I could/should go really in depth about the structural gutting Marth has taken to every part of his kit implicitly and explicitly, but people are still going to ask the same questions and still think none of it applies to Lucina ("yeah marth sucks thanks for telling me shaya, that's why I play Lucina, she's the best )

He honestly probably takes one of the bigger slices of the "most nerfed characters in Smash history" cake.

lost a lot too, but he retains a dash attack/grab that stay some of the best in the game, some hyper-amazing bread and butter tools vs Marth losing on everything. Like heck, we're even aware of more nerfs he received AFTER THE E3 DEMO (hitbox durations, roll speeds). Sakurai design intentions were pretty clear (look at his custom spreads... "easy" versions of two moves with no benefits over the defaults at all) when it came to Marth/Lucina, stab the competitive scene's lovechild in the groin and leave us dealing with a player pool/demographic remaining of waifu-scum to infuriate/stifle development with the characters otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~~~

For all those talking about crouching ruining ZSS.
Please.
Pikachu does it all too (on all those moves) and he still often struggles against her. The only thing ZSS has issues with is Pikachu's shield pressure + QA cross overs due to the stature/crouching-ish moves.

LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING.
Down Smash outranges you horizontally. Spaced it's still safe on shield. It's charge release is good. Pikachu negates this a little because of QA.
can hold crouch all they want. You're giving ZSS all the time in the world to place herself in a much better position.

*hint hint hint* SLIDING ANGLED DOWN FTILTS THAT ARE SAFE ON SHIELD?

If you want to talk about a croucher who truly shuts down a lot of ZSS game play, it's Sheik. Look at what Sheik can do out of a crouch compared to the rest of the characters and you can see where "reducing her options" actually starts to be detrimental.

Anyway our Marth-child Bengals coming from round1 losers and is maybe about to win the monthly Xanadu against Seagull with Zero Suit

 

[Antonykun]

Remember back when we were talking about someone who has a consistent 40:60 track record?
Swordfighter
While they technically lose way more than that against some characters *coughcoughdiddycoughcough*, their speed plus U/D-air means that one mess up and Swordfighter can potentially take the stock.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Shaya Nice to see that Melee to Brawl Sheik and Brawl to Smash 4 Marth have such bad nerf histories that they are considered to be nerfed harder than characters that went from existent to non-existent...

This is why I question the choices in games that I decide to main Sheik and Marth respectively.

 

[Dre89]

There's definitely some variation to my 500 instances of "Marth sucks".
:3

But people always ask the same questions. "Why is Marth suddenly bad in this game?". Or they say something stupid like Lucina is better/not terrible and it's like UGHHH. They never ask what Marth can do, or what he's meant to do in his bad situations, EL goes for heart strings and I go for the jugular when anything of it comes up~

At some point I could/should go really in depth about the structural gutting Marth has taken to every part of his kit implicitly and explicitly, but people are still going to ask the same questions and still think none of it applies to Lucina ("yeah marth sucks thanks for telling me shaya, that's why I play Lucina, she's the best )

He honestly probably takes one of the bigger slices of the "most nerfed characters in Smash history" cake.

lost a lot too, but he retains a dash attack/grab that stay some of the best in the game, some hyper-amazing bread and butter tools vs Marth losing on everything. Like heck, we're even aware of more nerfs he received AFTER THE E3 DEMO (hitbox durations, roll speeds). Sakurai design intentions were pretty clear (look at his custom spreads... "easy" versions of two moves with no benefits over the defaults at all) when it came to Marth/Lucina, stab the competitive scene's lovechild in the groin and leave us dealing with a player pool/demographic remaining of waifu-scum to infuriate/stifle development with the characters otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~~~

For all those talking about crouching ruining ZSS.
Please.
Pikachu does it all too (on all those moves) and he still often struggles against her. The only thing ZSS has issues with is Pikachu's shield pressure + QA cross overs due to the stature/crouching-ish moves.

LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING.
Down Smash outranges you horizontally. Spaced it's still safe on shield. It's charge release is good. Pikachu negates this a little because of QA.
can hold crouch all they want. You're giving ZSS all the time in the world to place herself in a much better position.

*hint hint hint* SLIDING ANGLED DOWN FTILTS THAT ARE SAFE ON SHIELD?

If you want to talk about a croucher who truly shuts down a lot of ZSS game play, it's Sheik. Look at what Sheik can do out of a crouch compared to the rest of the characters and you can see where "reducing her options" actually starts to be detrimental.

Anyway our Marth-child Bengals coming from round1 losers and is maybe about to win the monthly Xanadu against Seagull with Zero Suit

At least people know Marth is bad though. There are Charizard mains who think he'll end up being high tier and that there are only like 4 characters that he doesn't have a positive or even MU with.

 

[|RK|]

It does not completely nullify grab game it still grabs at the end and paralyzer is a slow moving projectile and I feel it's still better to PS if you can. Look at high level zss players nairo doesn't even use paralyzer much at all.

Does it grab at the end? I know the side b hits at the end, but I've never been hit by the grab at any distance while crouching, in online or tournament play.

 

[Smog Frog]

At least people know Marth is bad though. There are Charizard mains who think he'll end up being high tier and that there are only like 4 characters that he doesn't have a positive or even MU with.

are you implying charizard's bad


anyways while he might not be as good as these people are saying, with customs on he's at least top 25, more likely top 20. he has all the benefits of a heavy(lives forever, hits hard) without all the weaknesses that come with your standard heavy. yes, he's floaty and huge and is combo food, but your combos have to be frame tight because charizard has frame 1 super armor and will likely return 16%~ to you. charizard is also blessed with a better disadvantaged state than most heavies, with an escape option in dragon rush, aforementioned frame 1 armor, multiple jumps, and amazing oos options in usmash and fly. offstage, he's hard to edgeguard because up b is frame 5 super armor and dragon rush is risky to challenge head on. his neutral game among heavies is really only rivaled by bowser, with his amazing dash speed(8th fastest in the game!), jab that beats too many things, and flamethrower which is free chip damage(it lasts long enough to shield stab). and his advantaged state is up to par with other heavies. he has among the best edgeguarding of the heavies, with his huge bair(the tipper rivals the knee in power!), quick fair, and nair which happens to last forever. also flamethrower forces a ledge jump which you can catch with his frame 6(!)usmash, or utilt.


tl;dr im an optimistic charizard but not a delusional charizard

 

[David Viran]

Anyway our Marth-child Bengals coming from round1 losers and is maybe about to win the monthly Xanadu against Seagull with Zero Suit

He almost did it. A little too much paralyzer up close.

Does it grab at the end? I know the side b hits at the end, but I've never been hit by the grab at any distance while crouching, in online or tournament play.

It does they probably don't know about it or are too scared to go for it. As a zss main you have to not be scared to throw out a grab if needed or the oppenent will abuse the crap out of you.

Edit: Sorry double post.

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya Nice to see that Melee to Brawl Sheik and Brawl to Smash 4 Marth have such bad nerf histories that they are considered to be nerfed harder than characters that went from existent to non-existent...

This is why I question the choices in games that I decide to main Sheik and Marth respectively.

Well "Sheida" was a thing for a while I don't think Sheik was omega-nerfed from Melee, she maintained positive match ups and a lot of strong tools, but an inescapable lack of kill power/ability and an engine that ****ed her (chain grabs up the wazoo, sheiks grab game wasn't that swell). Sheik between Brawl and S4 is two new moves and better mobility primarily, it didn't take much to make her this powerful (albeit she did get given horizontal shuttle loop, without it she may not even be high tier).

And those 'cut from the roster' additions were for humour. Wolf was accidentally decisively left to remain as "too good". Should've probably left out for the obvious joke, but oh well

He almost did it. A little too much paralyzer up close.


It does they probably don't know about it or are too scared to go for it. As a zss main you have to not be scared to throw out a grab if needed or the oppenent will abuse the crap out of you.

Edit: Sorry double post.

I feel like he had a bit of a "mind crush" moment during the Halberd match. He gave away an extremely large lead, threw away his counter pick and while still keeping control was a lot worse off for it mentally. Delfino be lame, wouldn't ever want to play on that stage as ZSS tbqh.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

There's definitely some variation to my 500 instances of "Marth sucks".
:3

But people always ask the same questions. "Why is Marth suddenly bad in this game?". Or they say something stupid like Lucina is better/not terrible and it's like UGHHH. They never ask what Marth can do, or what he's meant to do in his bad situations, EL goes for heart strings and I go for the jugular when anything of it comes up~

At some point I could/should go really in depth about the structural gutting Marth has taken to every part of his kit implicitly and explicitly, but people are still going to ask the same questions and still think none of it applies to Lucina ("yeah marth sucks thanks for telling me shaya, that's why I play Lucina, she's the best )

He honestly probably takes one of the bigger slices of the "most nerfed characters in Smash history" cake.

lost a lot too, but he retains a dash attack/grab that stay some of the best in the game, some hyper-amazing bread and butter tools vs Marth losing on everything. Like heck, we're even aware of more nerfs he received AFTER THE E3 DEMO (hitbox durations, roll speeds). Sakurai design intentions were pretty clear (look at his custom spreads... "easy" versions of two moves with no benefits over the defaults at all) when it came to Marth/Lucina, stab the competitive scene's lovechild in the groin and leave us dealing with a player pool/demographic remaining of waifu-scum to infuriate/stifle development with the characters otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~~~

For all those talking about crouching ruining ZSS.
Please.
Pikachu does it all too (on all those moves) and he still often struggles against her. The only thing ZSS has issues with is Pikachu's shield pressure + QA cross overs due to the stature/crouching-ish moves.

LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING.
Down Smash outranges you horizontally. Spaced it's still safe on shield. It's charge release is good. Pikachu negates this a little because of QA.
can hold crouch all they want. You're giving ZSS all the time in the world to place herself in a much better position.

*hint hint hint* SLIDING ANGLED DOWN FTILTS THAT ARE SAFE ON SHIELD?

If you want to talk about a croucher who truly shuts down a lot of ZSS game play, it's Sheik. Look at what Sheik can do out of a crouch compared to the rest of the characters and you can see where "reducing her options" actually starts to be detrimental.

Anyway our Marth-child Bengals coming from round1 losers and is maybe about to win the monthly Xanadu against Seagull with Zero Suit

See you again same time next week for "Is Lucina better then Marth?" as always.

Crouch ruining ZSS? No, and no one is advocating that. Crouch being relevant? Absolutely.
Kirby and puff don't really shift heights when they dtilt, compared to G&W. Just by going for a dtilt they remove X,Y and Z from hitting them. Puffs dtilt isn't all that but it's not ignorable given the context. If the predictability of crouch leads you to "ftilt and downsmash" assuredly it goes both ways, which is fine as it would be boring if it was cut and dry. It's not going to breakdown to just "hold crouch" either, especially since one of those characters is very air present but you can't simply dismiss it.

The Seagull salt was real. Chat blew up.

 

[Dre89]

are you implying charizard's bad


anyways while he might not be as good as these people are saying, with customs on he's at least top 25, more likely top 20. he has all the benefits of a heavy(lives forever, hits hard) without all the weaknesses that come with your standard heavy. yes, he's floaty and huge and is combo food, but your combos have to be frame tight because charizard has frame 1 super armor and will likely return 16%~ to you. charizard is also blessed with a better disadvantaged state than most heavies, with an escape option in dragon rush, aforementioned frame 1 armor, multiple jumps, and amazing oos options in usmash and fly. offstage, he's hard to edgeguard because up b is frame 5 super armor and dragon rush is risky to challenge head on. his neutral game among heavies is really only rivaled by bowser, with his amazing dash speed(8th fastest in the game!), jab that beats too many things, and flamethrower which is free chip damage(it lasts long enough to shield stab). and his advantaged state is up to par with other heavies. he has among the best edgeguarding of the heavies, with his huge bair(the tipper rivals the knee in power!), quick fair, and nair which happens to last forever. also flamethrower forces a ledge jump which you can catch with his frame 6(!)usmash, or utilt.


tl;dr im an optimistic charizard but not a delusional charizard

He's mid-low tier and won't get any higher

He has all the weaknesses of your typical heavy. He's comboable, has no reliable combos past like 10%, has a binary approach, gets wrecked by projectile camping and has trouble landing. The only one he doesn't have is that he can be tricky to gimp.

Rock hurl may have frame 1 super armour, but it's a niche move because it is super punishable if it's predicted. Comparing him to other heavies and saying he's better is pointless because the other heavies are mediocre too. The fact that you're resorting to comparing him to heavies rather than high tiers sort of proves that his options are inferior to theirs.

His neutral game may seem good because of his dash speed, but it suffers because he normally has to approach and all of his options are punishable. If you're in neutral against someone like a Diddy or Sheik you basically need a hard read to get a hit because your options are so much slower and less safe.

 

[Shaya]

See you again same time next week for "Is Lucina better then Marth?" as always.

Crouch ruining ZSS? No, and no one is advocating that. Crouch being relevant? Absolutely.
Kirby and puff don't really shift heights when they dtilt, compared to G&W. Just by going for a dtilt they remove X,Y and Z from hitting them. Puffs dtilt isn't all that but it's not ignorable given the context. If the predictability of crouch leads you to "ftilt and downsmash" assuredly it goes both ways, which is fine as it would be boring if it was cut and dry. It's not going to breakdown to just "hold crouch" either, especially since one of those characters is very air present but you can't simply dismiss it.

The Seagull salt was real. Chat blew up.

So you're saying they can outfootsie ZSS with their down tilts when ZSS's is larger, probably just as fast and gets follow ups from it, when her angled down ftilt is a combo starter and outpokes those options too. THE REAL fear of the crouch is the crouch to shield as there is no commitment within the crouch animation (although they don't tend to be 1 frame animations). Down tilt use also is limited to the direction you're facing when you crouch, and you cannot do a natural turn around from a crouch after down tilting on any character (although you can PP out of it).

Sheik crouching not only has the lovely trump of shielding with some amazing speedy punish options (ZSS moves are less safe on her shield than the aforementioned) but has needles and needle cancelling, a stupid fast ftilt aiming high that tends to outfootsie us and all the less commitments she has on her actions in general that she can do.

It's definitely relevant, not denying that. But it's a single defensive option. ZSS is expecting defensive options from the opponent a majority of the time and crouching barely marks any differences to just holding shield and reacting to her grab. What some characters can do after a successful use of a defensive option is not suddenly any a lot better than before.

 

[Smog Frog]

He's mid-low tier and won't get any higher

He has all the weaknesses of your typical heavy. He's comboable, has no reliable combos past like 10%, has a binary approach, gets wrecked by projectile camping and has trouble landing. The only one he doesn't have is that he can be tricky to gimp.

Rock hurl may have frame 1 super armour, but it's a niche move because it is super punishable if it's predicted. Comparing him to other heavies and saying he's better is pointless because the other heavies are mediocre too. The fact that you're resorting to comparing him to heavies rather than high tiers sort of proves that his options are inferior to theirs.

His neutral game may seem good because of his dash speed, but it suffers because he normally has to approach and all of his options are punishable. If you're in neutral against someone like a Diddy or Sheik you basically need a hard read to get a hit because your options are so much slower and less safe.

umm i kinda doubt that i should respond but hnnng i'll bite

yeah. he's comboable. i even said that he's combo food! but your combos have to be frame tight because he has frame 1 super armor. why does he need combos? his damage per hit suffices. he doesnt have as much trouble with projectile camping compared to other heavies because of his dash speed and low vertical hitbox(he's about as tall as fox). isnt everything punishable if you predict it barring stuff like sheik fair and other stupid safe moves? as for landing, he doesnt struggle as much as other heavies because his options arent as unsafe as other heavies. rock hurl has disjointed shards that are hard to challenge on top of the super armor, flamethrower is good for covering landings, and his multiple jumps aid in positioning.

where does this need to compare to other high tiers come in when i'm trying to prove he's high mid(not high!)

since i know you'll say to compare him to another high mid tier, lets look at ROB since he's the closest comparison. both are heavy, both are combo food, and both have tools that allow them to succeed. yeah kinda brief but its true.


why does he need to approach? his range via flamethrower is large enough that he can adequately force others to come into close quarters with him. he doesnt need to go into close quarters, his midrange is good enough with flamethrower.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

ZSS only has about 3 reliable options on a crouching puff, G&W and Kirby, possibly Sheik, wft and Pikachu; ftilt, dtilt, dsmash. She can reposition for Whip, Grab or a late aerial. Well yeah I am talking footsies...

If Puff or Kirby go for a Dtilt, and ZSS executes a different option, she will not harm them while risking being hit herself. For GW this can lead to her overextending and him getting the punish he wants.
Since ZSS should keep this in the back of her mind. That Ftilt, Dtilt and Dsmash are her most reliable options against these crouches makes her more predictable. They dont have to crouch, but if they do she has about 3 consistent options. That is a *lot* less then most characters have to deal with when facing ZSS. If Sheiks crouch is just as good (and I have asked for verification) then its worth further consideration given Sheiks far greater prevalence. ZSS can start tossing out Dsmashes in neutral if she wants, but that carries its risks, which is ultimately the point: you cut your offense to about 3 options in this situation, but don't have to cut your own so it's easier to make decisions that may lead to advantage. If I give you only 3 things to deal with, whiff punishing and counter hits are a lot more feasible.




Out of Sheik, Kirby, ZSS, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, WFT, GW.

Spoiler

Kirby has the fastest dtilt start-up. Yes ZSS outranges his dtilt, no she is not as quick.
Dtilt start-up is Kirby > Sheik > GW >Pikachu = WFT > ZSS> Jigglypuff.
Ftilt start-up is... Kirby = Sheik > WFT= Pikachu = ZSS > Jigglypuff > GW

 

[Yonder]

See, that's why I find it kinda funny. You say that they may not have a match worse than 4-6, which is believable. On the other hand, I could name like... four to five matchups that are probably an easy 3:7 for Zelda, but somehow people think she's still a decent character that has more potential than Marth. That's mostly why I was slightly bemused.

Either way, I would not have guessed that they don't have any real advantageous matchups. Thanks for that insight, sir. I just got Crescent Slash Marth yesterday, so I need to give that a go, especially with the combos you linked the other day.

I will say that Crescent Slash is an amazing custom. I versed a Lucina in a tourney with Luigi and lost basically because of that move [And I am untrained in the custom environment...]. It covers so much area, makes it so hard to approach.

Also Twisting Fox kills stupidly low, or at least sends a character to the very very edge of the screen around 70-0%. Always use it over Fox's default Up B.

And Marth does have a big redeeming factor: His tippered charged F smash near the edge is as stupid as Lucario's aura, kills at 0-50%. Actually almost made me swear when I got hit with it because I was creaming this guy's Marth before that.

Then again, I find Marth entirely average mid tier, maybe one spot above the dead center due to tippers. Crescent Slash is really good though.

It's funny, on another subject, how hard it is to determine a bottom tier in this game. Everytime I think I know someone is...bang! They impress me. Doctor Mario? See him destroy in a local tourney[But he IS pointless over Mario]. Wii Fit Trainer? I get creamed by one of the best players...ever [guy who beat m2k before and 2 stocked Dabuz's Olimar with Charizard]. Heck, I actually secondary WFT now, his mobility is too fun. I guess Swordsman and Lucina [because she is so outclassed by Marth] are the only surefire bottoms I can think of. Everyone else just seems to amaze when I have them pinned as bad.

 

[Radical Larry]

At least people know Marth is bad though. There are Charizard mains who think he'll end up being high tier and that there are only like 4 characters that he doesn't have a positive or even MU with.

With Ganondorf, all you need to do is Warlock Punch on Flare Blitz. One wrong move for Zard and off he goes.

 

[FullMoon]

umm i kinda doubt that i should respond but hnnng i'll bite

yeah. he's comboable. i even said that he's combo food! but your combos have to be frame tight because he has frame 1 super armor. why does he need combos? his damage per hit suffices. he doesnt have as much trouble with projectile camping compared to other heavies because of his dash speed and low vertical hitbox(he's about as tall as fox). isnt everything punishable if you predict it barring stuff like sheik fair and other stupid safe moves? as for landing, he doesnt struggle as much as other heavies because his options arent as unsafe as other heavies. rock hurl has disjointed shards that are hard to challenge on top of the super armor, flamethrower is good for covering landings, and his multiple jumps aid in positioning.

where does this need to compare to other high tiers come in when i'm trying to prove he's high mid(not high!)

since i know you'll say to compare him to another high mid tier, lets look at ROB since he's the closest comparison. both are heavy, both are combo food, and both have tools that allow them to succeed. yeah kinda brief but its true.


why does he need to approach? his range via flamethrower is large enough that he can adequately force others to come into close quarters with him. he doesnt need to go into close quarters, his midrange is good enough with flamethrower.

The problem with Rock Smash/Hurl is that yes it's a good way to stop juggling, but the problem is, it's easy to do something about it on reaction since Charizard takes his time to smash the rock and since Charizard doesn't really have any options to land other than it, it's really easy to bait it.

For example, let's assume Charizard is at a high % and is grabbed by Greninja and thrown up. He's now above Greninja, which is a terrible position to be in. What does he do to land? Greninja will probably jump for the up-air, so using Down-B for the super armor would likely be a good idea... Except that when you used it, Greninja saw it, fast falled back to the ground, waited for the hitbox of the move to end, then hit and KO'd you with a sweetspot Up-Smash. I'm telling you this because I've done this multiple times against Charizard when playing Ladder matches.

That's the problem with Charizard, his stuff is easier to react to and bait for the punish. Flamethrower leaves him really open if he misses it and is beaten by stronger projectiles; Flare Blitz pretty much tells the opponent what's coming for them to react though at least Dragon Rush fixes that issue.

I'm not saying Charizard is bad, but I don't think he's high-mid. I think he'd likely be in mid tier. Flamethrower does work well for edgeguarding, he considerably harder to gimp than other heavies and he deals a lot of damage fast, but he's still combo bait and his tools for getting out of disadvantage are easy to bait, which only result in him getting even more damaged and/or lose a stock.

I can't see him being high-mid honestly. There might be more about the character I'm not aware of, but so far I think he's at best mid.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Charizard can Flare blitz/dragon Rush, jump up to twice in the air, Rock Smash/Hurl, and flamethrower to deter punishing his landing. This is aside from throwing out an aerial such as N-air or F-air.

This is notable in the same way a Counter is notable, hell yeah it can be baited but it doesn't have to be. This garners more respect then say Bowser has to when landing. As in your same situation maybe you did decide to wait, but then Charizard just D-air'd, you fast falled and he moves on with his life given he didn't commit to Rocksmash.

 

[Ffamran]

With Ganondorf, all you need to do is Warlock Punch on Flare Blitz. One wrong move for Zard and off he goes.

That's assuming Warlock Punch hits Charizard before Flare Blitz hits Ganondorf and that also assumes Ganondorf's at a percent where super armor does something and doesn't give Charizard a free punish and/or stock. It'd rather take my chances with Ftilt, Dtilt, Warlock Thrust, Warlock Blade, Flame Choke?, shield, spot dodge, or just walk away far enough and rush back to punish.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

With Ganondorf, all you need to do is Warlock Punch on Flare Blitz. One wrong move for Zard and off he goes.

You are not throwing out Warlock punches to catch Flare blitz. You aren't throwing Warlock Punch in general.

 

[Locke 06]

Flare blitz on shield on stage is a free jab lock combo. I've heard those are all the rage these days.

 

[Ffamran]

You are not throwing out Warlock punches to catch Flare blitz. You aren't throwing Warlock Punch in general.

Unless you've got a PhD in English, Spanish, French, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Latin, Greek, Hindi, Swahili, Afrikaans, German, Dutch, Vietnamese, Thai, Portuguese, Farsi, Turkish, Russian, *rambles off a list of other languages*, and Hylian.

The read is real with Ganondorf's Warlock Punch and Blade. As for Thrust, I don't really know. It's like his Side Smash, right? At least Utilt, Volcano Kick, can be used as an edgeguard like Ike's Eruption and Tempest.

 

[Brinzy]

You can throw out Warlock Punches against Zelda and it will probably work.

See? Canon.

 

[Radical Larry]

Let me settle your confusion:

Warlock Punches vs Flare Blitz
Warlock Punch wins because of its more active SA frames, as well as the fact that Flare Blitz will cause Zard to tumble, giving Ganondorf a free hit. If the attack hits Zard during Flare Blitz, it will still hit, if Flare Blitz misses, it will hit (factoring IF Zard will be nearby).

You use Warlock Punch to trap a Flare Blitz user. I've done it plenty of times, and it's worked for me. Test it out.

 

[Blobface]

uh I'd just like to note that Ganon's super-armor on Warlock punch is literally unlimited. It doesn't matter if he gets hit by Marth's Final Smash at 999%, he won't budge a nanometer. Since Charizard gets dumped right on the ground right after Flare Blitz, you can Armor it on reaction if you're ready for it.

Problem is, what Charizard in their right mind is going to just toss around Flare Blitz as anything but a kill move off a read? Heck, what Charizard would use Flare Blitz over Dragon Rush?

 

[Brinzy]

Problem is, what Charizard in their right mind is going to just toss around Flare Blitz as anything but a kill move off a read?

Ummm but For Glory is the epitome of smash gameplay and that's the only move Charizard has there

 

[Radical Larry]

uh I'd just like to note that Ganon's super-armor on Warlock punch is literally unlimited. It doesn't matter if he gets hit by Marth's Final Smash at 999%, he won't budge a nanometer. Since Charizard gets dumped right on the ground right after Flare Blitz, you can Armor it on reaction if you're ready for it.

Problem is, what Charizard in their right mind is going to just toss around Flare Blitz as anything but a kill move off a read? Heck, what Charizard would use Flare Blitz over Dragon Rush?

On the first part, THANK YOU.

On the second part, a Zard could misread a tech and Ganon would probably have some time to shield or pull out a Warlock Punch. If they use Dragon Rush, Ganon could use anything else.

Ummm but For Glory is the epitome of smash gameplay and that's the only move Charizard has there

Except my Zard, which I actually do utilize his other attacks.

 

[Ffamran]

uh I'd just like to note that Ganon's super-armor on Warlock punch is literally unlimited. It doesn't matter if he gets hit by Marth's Final Smash at 999%, he won't budge a nanometer. Since Charizard gets dumped right on the ground right after Flare Blitz, you can Armor it on reaction if you're ready for it.

Problem is, what Charizard in their right mind is going to just toss around Flare Blitz as anything but a kill move off a read? Heck, what Charizard would use Flare Blitz over Dragon Rush?

Really? I've been interrupted while using Warlock Punch before.

 

[FullMoon]

Charizard can Flare blitz/dragon Rush, jump up to twice in the air, Rock Smash/Hurl, and flamethrower to deter punishing his landing. This is aside from throwing out an aerial such as N-air or F-air.

This is notable in the same way a Counter is notable, hell yeah it can be baited but it doesn't have to be. This garners more respect then say Bowser has to when landing. As in your same situation maybe you did decide to wait, but then Charizard just D-air'd, you fast falled and he moves on with his life given he didn't commit to Rocksmash.

Like I said, the situation I mentioned was from my experience playing against Charizard. Once I learned about the was he could escape I never really felt like it was hard to keep him from landing. I honestly think Bowser is a lot more dangerous than Charizard is. Maybe I just need to face some better Charizard players then.

 

[Radical Larry]

Really? I've been interrupted while using Warlock Punch before.

Because the SA frames don't come until a bit after the start up, and they end just before it comes. It's at the direct middle of course.

(frames 11-62) -Invincibility and armor list thread in the Smash Academy
So basically, frames 1-10 and 63-70 are the ones you need to worry about being hit in. This doesn't apply to hitstun, like from Zard's Rock Smash, which causes the frames to lock.