Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Because the SA frames don't come until a bit after the start up, and they end just before it comes. It's at the direct middle of course.

(frames 11-62) -Invincibility and armor list thread in the Smash Academy

I guess I was hit from the beginning and before Warlock Punch comes out, but considering the stupidest things always happens to me like getting spiked by a ledge attack, I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik can Needle me perfectly at frame 10 from across the stage or 63 at pointblank.

 

[Radical Larry]

I guess I was hit from the beginning and before Warlock Punch comes out, but considering the stupidest things always happens to me like getting spiked by a ledge attack, I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik can Needle me perfectly at frame 10 from across the stage or 63 at pointblank.

Frame lock. If he's hit repeatedly, his frames will lock, and if hit point blank by Needles around 11-62, Sheik's a goner unless she perfect shields or frame perfect rolls away. At around 52-62, it'll be virtually impossible for Sheik to dodge or get away point blank.

 

[Ffamran]

Frame lock. If he's hit repeatedly, his frames will lock, and if hit point blank by Needles around 11-62, Sheik's a goner unless she perfect shields or frame perfect rolls away. At around 52-62, it'll be virtually impossible for Sheik to dodge or get away point blank.

I meant one Needle to interrupt Warlock Punch. Considering the stuff that happens to me, I wouldn't be surprised to die or have dumb stuff happen. Ever fought someone who got 4 9 Judges in one match and 3 9 Judges in another match? It's horrible and I HATE RNG, chances, and luck. Everything that can go wrong will go wrong. Anyway, I digress.

 

[Radical Larry]

I meant one Needle to interrupt Warlock Punch. Considering the stuff that happens to me, I wouldn't be surprised to die or have dumb stuff happen. Ever fought someone who got 4 9 Judges in one match and 3 9 Judges in another match? It's horrible and I HATE RNG, chances, and luck. Everything that can go wrong will go wrong. Anyway, I digress.

Ever KO someone with an aerial reverse Warlock Punch from 0% and sending them in the opposite direction no less? (I'm being serious, I decided to record that.)

 

[Ffamran]

Ever KO someone with an aerial reverse Warlock Punch from 0% and sending them in the opposite direction no less? (I'm being serious, I decided to record that.)

No, but I had the tip of Villager's Tree kill me and Villager's Side Smash kill me at 30% at center stage.

Anyway, back to Charizard, what's Dtilt supposed to be used for since Ftilt covers the ground more, right? And Side Smash sort of looks like Dtilt.

 

[Radical Larry]

No, but I had the tip of Villager's Tree kill me and Villager's Side Smash kill me at 30% at center stage.

Anyway, back to Charizard, what's Dtilt supposed to be used for since Ftilt covers the ground more, right? And Side Smash sort of looks like Dtilt.

Well...basically just be a lower, weaker version of F-Smash and for edge-guarding. Attack is mostly useless.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Warlock Punch SA doesn't activate unless Ganon does it while grounded, right?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lavani]

Warlock Punch SA doesn't activate unless Ganon does it while grounded, right?

Smooth Criminal

Right. He can't reverse it, either.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm just wondering because why is Warlock Punch being touted as a good option against a Flare Blitzing/Dragon Rushing 'Zard? 'Zard players shouldn't be using those moves on a raw read from a long distance anyways. That's just asking to get it shielded or bopped by something high-risk like Warlock Punch.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Saturn_]

You play enough Smash, crazy **** happens...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I mean, yeah, pretty crazy shiz happens outta the blue sometimes.

But it's controlled chaos, not---

okay, well, there's Peach item-pulls and G-Dubs Nines but still.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

ZSS only has about 3 reliable options on a crouching puff, G&W and Kirby, possibly Sheik, wft and Pikachu; ftilt, dtilt, dsmash. She can reposition for Whip, Grab or a late aerial. Well yeah I am talking footsies...

If Puff or Kirby go for a Dtilt, and ZSS executes a different option, she will not harm them while risking being hit herself. For GW this can lead to her overextending and him getting the punish he wants.
Since ZSS should keep this in the back of her mind. That Ftilt, Dtilt and Dsmash are her most reliable options against these crouches makes her more predictable. They dont have to crouch, but if they do she has about 3 consistent options. That is a *lot* less then most characters have to deal with when facing ZSS. If Sheiks crouch is just as good (and I have asked for verification) then its worth further consideration given Sheiks far greater prevalence. ZSS can start tossing out Dsmashes in neutral if she wants, but that carries its risks, which is ultimately the point: you cut your offense to about 3 options in this situation, but don't have to cut your own so it's easier to make decisions that may lead to advantage. If I give you only 3 things to deal with, whiff punishing and counter hits are a lot more feasible.




Out of Sheik, Kirby, ZSS, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, WFT, GW.

Spoiler

Kirby has the fastest dtilt start-up. Yes ZSS outranges his dtilt, no she is not as quick.
Dtilt start-up is Kirby > Sheik > GW >Pikachu = WFT > ZSS> Jigglypuff.
Ftilt start-up is... Kirby = Sheik > WFT= Pikachu = ZSS > Jigglypuff > GW

Those options I listed are generally the only ones we have to use against people shielding. I'm very serious when I say it's a comparable dilemma for ZSS than those characters crouching. And they do need to be spaced. Their horizontal spacing requirements don't change (crouching or shielding).
Also I'm under the impression bair and nair are capable of hitting those characters when timed properly on landing. Likely being perfect landings, but a tad bit telegraphed (facing forward its nair and backwards its bair! two different timings though), but people predisposed to crouching (and shielding) can be cross over'd for a positional advantage. Even a small thing like being forced to do your crouching get up animation if you wish to move backwards (a really smart/dynamic tool for out spacing/etc) means that it suffers that positional weakness, always; although the defensive implications tend to outweigh it. You'll be adding a minimum of 2 frames to your spot dodges too for needing to shield first (or reset the stick), which is a common answer to landing aerials.

And the use of an attack is a small part of the equation when movement is involved. What is that opponent going to do about a well spaced tilt while they're committing to non-movement? Dashing into a crouch takes longer than into shield I believe. If my ftilt is going to hit you or safely hit your shield (power shield withstanding) from a walk, dash, perfect pivot, dash pivot, short hop ff, flip jump etc then what are you getting out of this? ZSS outranges a lot of characters and has the mobility to pressure without commitment, I would much rather deal with an abuser of "crouching" than an abuser of "shield" as it has far more opportunities to actually hit you than someone just shielding, crazy, huh? Beyond Pikachu, none of the characters have moves which have crouching attacks that can't be punished OoS by ZSS reliably (did someone say BOOST KICK?). Sheik crouching into ftilt beats a lot of things that none of those characters crouching into actions can reliably replicate in the match up. That's why Sheik crouching in the match up is a lot scarier than those characters, because even if they can stifle neutral, they don't have comparable rewards to ZSS, lose in trades otherwise and solidly lose in every other game state (not Pika).

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm just wondering because why is Warlock Punch being touted as a good option against a Flare Blitzing/Dragon Rushing 'Zard? 'Zard players shouldn't be using those moves on a raw read from a long distance anyways. That's just asking to get it shielded or bopped by something high-risk like Warlock Punch.

Smooth Criminal

There's so many ways a Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush can go wrong. Trying a medium-to-long distance grounded kill is one.

Even without the SA on Warlock Punch, a RAR Warlock Punch will mobilize him in the air, so if a Flare Blitz happened, he can punish. This is especially true if it's used by the ledge.

 

[Kofu]

There's so many ways a Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush can go wrong. Trying a medium-to-long distance grounded kill is one.

Even without the SA on Warlock Punch, a RAR Warlock Punch will mobilize him in the air, so if a Flare Blitz happened, he can punish. This is especially true if it's used by the ledge.

What are you talking about? I'm not sure how you RAR a 70-frame move, I'm not sure how that "mobilizes Ganon in the air" (unless I'm misunderstanding this), and I'm not sure how that lets him punish. Just go for an FSmash, USmash, or something safer (tipman UAir into more jab lock stuff is a good idea).

 

[Timbers]

can we stop talking about warlock punch forever

 

[Shaya]

Brood's Duck Hunt just took out Abandango's Pacman and it's now Choco vs Brood in LSF.

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Emblem Lord]

There's definitely some variation to my 500 instances of "Marth sucks".
:3

But people always ask the same questions. "Why is Marth suddenly bad in this game?". Or they say something stupid like Lucina is better/not terrible and it's like UGHHH. They never ask what Marth can do, or what he's meant to do in his bad situations, EL goes for heart strings and I go for the jugular when anything of it comes up~

At some point I could/should go really in depth about the structural gutting Marth has taken to every part of his kit implicitly and explicitly, but people are still going to ask the same questions and still think none of it applies to Lucina ("yeah marth sucks thanks for telling me shaya, that's why I play Lucina, she's the best )

He honestly probably takes one of the bigger slices of the "most nerfed characters in Smash history" cake.

lost a lot too, but he retains a dash attack/grab that stay some of the best in the game, some hyper-amazing bread and butter tools vs Marth losing on everything. Like heck, we're even aware of more nerfs he received AFTER THE E3 DEMO (hitbox durations, roll speeds). Sakurai design intentions were pretty clear (look at his custom spreads... "easy" versions of two moves with no benefits over the defaults at all) when it came to Marth/Lucina, stab the competitive scene's lovechild in the groin and leave us dealing with a player pool/demographic remaining of waifu-scum to infuriate/stifle development with the characters otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~~~

For all those talking about crouching ruining ZSS.
Please.
Pikachu does it all too (on all those moves) and he still often struggles against her. The only thing ZSS has issues with is Pikachu's shield pressure + QA cross overs due to the stature/crouching-ish moves.

LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING.
Down Smash outranges you horizontally. Spaced it's still safe on shield. It's charge release is good. Pikachu negates this a little because of QA.
can hold crouch all they want. You're giving ZSS all the time in the world to place herself in a much better position.

*hint hint hint* SLIDING ANGLED DOWN FTILTS THAT ARE SAFE ON SHIELD?

If you want to talk about a croucher who truly shuts down a lot of ZSS game play, it's Sheik. Look at what Sheik can do out of a crouch compared to the rest of the characters and you can see where "reducing her options" actually starts to be detrimental.

Anyway our Marth-child Bengals coming from round1 losers and is maybe about to win the monthly Xanadu against Seagull with Zero Suit

You know whats hilarious?

Even with the waifu stuff inhibiting the growth of Marcina I still consider them to have made the most meta advancement in the least amount of time or at least top 3. Sheik boards have def done alot and maybe Luigi boards out do us too, but I think that might be it.

And good **** to Bengalz holding it down and translating all that glorious god level spacing to another character.

 

[Meru.]

Brood's Duck Hunt just took out Abandango's Pacman and it's now Choco vs Brood in LSF.

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Spoiler: Diddy destroyed face.

Surprise!!

 

[Shaya]

Rain puts Sheik as best in game.
Plays Diddy.
Destroys everybody.

TYPICAL DIDDY MAINS.
amirite?

Good/lucky day for me to watch Zero Suit on stream. Lots of zair being implemented and I WUB IT. Choco uses a lot of SHFF to move around and also quite a bit of down smash, which usually works out quite well for him.

I wouldn't put the ZSS/Diddy match up as that bad, but forward air exists
Why does his forward air beat everything? EVERYTHING. FOREVER.

Hooh hahing is lame and all, but it's because FAIR beats everything that she gets grabbed at all by that monkey.

Rain used a lot of dthrow/upthrow to fair/bair rather than using his up air. Staling his throws while keeping his up air generally fresh. This would be putting his opponent's above and off stage all the time, and Rain would just return to the center of the stage, maybe pull a banana, and then move in just at around the time the opponent can land, I would call this practically infallible strategy. So little risk to Diddy as he maintains a hyper amount of stage control.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bait it.
Crouch it.
????
Profit

 

[Shaya]

Auto Cancelled, it has a 12 frame window to punish. It's range is kinda big. Fast fallen it's similar.
In trades it wins, it'll beat nearly every poke, projectile or whatever.
In situations for returning to the ground, no one really has a way through it, it's ease at frame trapping into grab/dtilt/etc is pretty obvious and heavily abused.

We're not always in a disadvantaged state against Diddy,
but once we are, we usually lose our stock before returning it back
~ Everybody

 

[Emblem Lord]

When I use Sheik I just crouch dash attack. Guess ZSS isn't so lucky.

 

[Shaya]

I hear Sheik can crouch while in the air or during most movements/commitments. I wish ZSS could do that.

Mindless use of any move is pretty easy to deal with in a ??? Profit type of way.

 

[Spinosaurus]

No, but I had the tip of Villager's Tree kill me and Villager's Side Smash kill me at 30% at center stage.

Anyway, back to Charizard, what's Dtilt supposed to be used for since Ftilt covers the ground more, right? And Side Smash sort of looks like Dtilt.

His DTilt is good because it has very little recovery and covers a good distance. It's not particularly great but I like using it as a poke. With Dragon Rush you can immediately follow it up after a dtilt.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm just wondering because why is Warlock Punch being touted as a good option against a Flare Blitzing/Dragon Rushing 'Zard? 'Zard players shouldn't be using those moves on a raw read from a long distance anyways. That's just asking to get it shielded or bopped by something high-risk like Warlock Punch.

Smooth Criminal

Warlock Punch isn't really a good option against anything a smart player's going to be doing much. Even against realistic reads you can land it off of you're usually better off going for a safer punish, especially because all of Ganon's moves hit hard anyway. Warlock Punch is generally more for style points than being an optimal punish, though you might be able to find very rare exceptions. I don't even think it works on Dragon Rush because it goes through you.

 

[Smog Frog]

you only use warlock punch to punish an utilt

 

[Radical Larry]

What are you talking about? I'm not sure how you RAR a 70-frame move, I'm not sure how that "mobilizes Ganon in the air" (unless I'm misunderstanding this), and I'm not sure how that lets him punish. Just go for an FSmash, USmash, or something safer (tipman UAir into more jab lock stuff is a good idea).

First, the reverse Warlock Punch is more than 70 frames, let's make it clear.

Basically, the only way you can RAR that move is by using it high in the air and reverse it. Reversing it in the air allows you to move out of the way of your opponents, and just enough distance to hit them (and probably KO them in the process due to extreme knockback scaling).

I think the reversed version allows Ganondorf to move a bit faster in the air, but I know that it can break shields due to shieldstun, and if Ganon's sustained 100%+ damage, he will always KO the opponent from Zero Percent if they're facing the desired location or got hit just by the back hitboxes of the punch (which is the shoulder area of the sourspot).

It's a very heavy risk-to-reward tactic, but at lower damages, it's got more reward to it than if at higher damages. It's also the hardest read in the game, from both user and opponent perspective, and it's one of the few things needing correct positioning to work. But if/once it hits, it's very, very satisfying.

The only way it lets him punish is if the opponent gets too cocky and tries striking Ganondorf, but it's also a shield breaker if they don't spot dodge, roll or perfect shield.

 

[Antonykun]

http://smashboards.com/threads/s-dd-1-3-14-3015-league-city-tx-mii-swordsman-cant-be-stopped.394946/
So Trela decided to troll everyone by winning a tournament with Mii Swordfighter apparently.

 

[Firefoxx]

http://smashboards.com/threads/s-dd-1-3-14-3015-league-city-tx-mii-swordsman-cant-be-stopped.394946/
So Trella decided to troll everyone by winning a tournament with Mii Swordfighter apparently.

With Average/Average 1111 Mii Swordfighter at that

(I'm assuming the topic makers customs hate extends to Mii's as well)

 

[Antonykun]

With Average/Average 1111 Mii Swordfighter at that

(I'm assuming the topic makers customs hate extends to Mii's as well)

yeah the mii was average 1111 which makes Trela a bigger troll

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Warlock Punch isn't really a good option against anything a smart player's going to be doing much. Even against realistic reads you can land it off of you're usually better off going for a safer punish, especially because all of Ganon's moves hit hard anyway. Warlock Punch is generally more for style points than being an optimal punish, though you might be able to find very rare exceptions. I don't even think it works on Dragon Rush because it goes through you.

I'm aware. I was kinda hinting at this with my other post about controlled chaos, haha.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NachoOfCheese]

http://smashboards.com/threads/s-dd-1-3-14-3015-league-city-tx-mii-swordsman-cant-be-stopped.394946/
So Trella decided to troll everyone by winning a tournament with Mii Swordfighter apparently.

What next? Mario's frame data sucks? Shulk has terrible range? Diddy sucks? Sheik sucks but at least her killpower isn't as awful as Ganondorf's?

 

[Antonykun]

What next? Mario's frame data sucks? Shulk has terrible range? Diddy sucks? Sheik sucks but at least her killpower isn't as awful as Ganondorf's?

1111 Brawler can kill

 

[ILOVESMASH]

http://smashboards.com/threads/s-dd-1-3-14-3015-league-city-tx-mii-swordsman-cant-be-stopped.394946/
So Trella decided to troll everyone by winning a tournament with Mii Swordfighter apparently.

To be fair, Mii swordfighter's low tier placement was never justified in the first place. Literally nobody used him in tournaments and people just stated he was bad because others stated the same.

 

[Paper Maribro]

What next? Mario's frame data sucks? Shulk has terrible range? Diddy sucks? Sheik sucks but at least her killpower isn't as awful as Ganondorf's?

Ganondorf's Neutral is overwhelming and invalidates half the cast.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

yeah the mii was average 1111 which makes Trela a bigger troll

I really want to see matches of this Sword Mii. I hope Trela continues to troll hardcore/win more events.

 

[Antonykun]

To be fair, Mii swordfighter's low tier placement was never justified in the first place. Literally nobody used him in tournaments and people just stated he was bad because others stated the same.

If you want, I can list all the reasons why they are low tier from an ex Swordfighter main.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS only has about 3 reliable options on a crouching puff, G&W and Kirby, possibly Sheik, wft and Pikachu; ftilt, dtilt, dsmash. She can reposition for Whip, Grab or a late aerial. Well yeah I am talking footsies...

If Puff or Kirby go for a Dtilt, and ZSS executes a different option, she will not harm them while risking being hit herself. For GW this can lead to her overextending and him getting the punish he wants.
Since ZSS should keep this in the back of her mind. That Ftilt, Dtilt and Dsmash are her most reliable options against these crouches makes her more predictable. They dont have to crouch, but if they do she has about 3 consistent options. That is a *lot* less then most characters have to deal with when facing ZSS. If Sheiks crouch is just as good (and I have asked for verification) then its worth further consideration given Sheiks far greater prevalence. ZSS can start tossing out Dsmashes in neutral if she wants, but that carries its risks, which is ultimately the point: you cut your offense to about 3 options in this situation, but don't have to cut your own so it's easier to make decisions that may lead to advantage. If I give you only 3 things to deal with, whiff punishing and counter hits are a lot more feasible.




Out of Sheik, Kirby, ZSS, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, WFT, GW.

Spoiler

Kirby has the fastest dtilt start-up. Yes ZSS outranges his dtilt, no she is not as quick.
Dtilt start-up is Kirby > Sheik > GW >Pikachu = WFT > ZSS> Jigglypuff.
Ftilt start-up is... Kirby = Sheik > WFT= Pikachu = ZSS > Jigglypuff > GW

Zss's ftilt is the same frame of start up as sheiks.

Edit: Nevermind I was thinking of something else.

 

[Nobie]

i would be fine if samus's jab was conventional but using any other move is terribly risky. Big bomb is my personal prefference due to better space control.

This is part of what I meant when discussing Samus's play style a while back. Because her attacks are often fairly quick but few of them are truly safe, it requires you to use risky mixups and even gamble a bit when in close quarters.

Also, re: Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch, whatever.

We can say how these moves are bad and no one should ever get hit by them, but they do. Good players, great players even, often eat a PAWNCH or an up-tilt or any number of things that "shouldn't" work.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy definitely beats ZSS. But how is the matchup of Sheik vs ZSS? I think ZSS has an advantage there.