Character Competitive Impressions

[Firefoxx]

Of course he does and of course it is. But knowing about something doesn't mean you can always punish it and not even giving yourself the option is a little strange

 

[warionumbah2]

Good lord MK vs Mac is disgusting, what does Mac do against a campy MK on SV...?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Now that I think about it, Slash Claw is probably Rock type. It's great against airborne opponents but vulnerable to the ground. Anyway...

His name is Rock Man. COINCIDENCE?! I THINK NOT!

 

[Smog Frog]

i think its rock type because slash mans stage was dinosaur based

 

[Quickhero]

Good luck, dude!

I saw your message before I took it, thanks man! It wasn't nearly as bad as I expected it to be haha.

I'm definitely celebrating today by playing Smash 4 now that I actually have time to play online. Anyone wanna have a go with custom moves? I want to practice my Marth / maybe Sheik / Lucario and I want more match-up experience. Please feel free to message me! :3

On a semi-relevant note, Marth's ledge-trump game is amazing. :3

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Good lord MK vs Mac is disgusting, what does Mac do against a campy MK on SV...?

Accept defeat and use your secondary if there's another match. Mac vs MK is among the worst matchups in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

This is a lot harder to answer than I originally thought. I guess...I'm not sure how you can really measure the worth and "usefulness" of something that just...exists. Low % dthrow combos are common in the roster, and if you can take advantage of someone's landing frames with another dthrow. It's a nice string, and if it works then you should use it. You're maximizing damage output by stringing dthrow combos together, like any other strings. The only difference is you're using more than one grab in the combo/string.

So I feel like the question would have had more merit if it was asking if the pros/cons to using multiple grabs in strings/combos, which would be a little more open to debate. We could say that using dthrows (or throws in general) may offer a wide angle of trajectories for the opponent to DI, which may give your string suboptimal damage, or whiff completely. We can say that the benefit of adding grabs to combos/strings gives you the opportunity to pummel for replenishing stale moves (unlikely at lower percents but...). Yadda yadda yadda.

As far as the video, you honestly may be shorting yourself on damage if you choose to not go into utilts/uair after that bair in the example though. You put Bowser above you in that case, which is bad for Bowser. In the likely event that Bowser can DI up/away and jump before the second/third grab, your utilt would also probably be much more likely to catch him escaping.

It's not my Falco; it's @BoN~'s. The reason why I asked how useful grab resets are is because of the ability to DI it and that it might not work on a lot of characters. Kirby can grab reset heavyweights like Ganondorf, but it might not work on Fox. Chaingrabs and wobbles require skill and precision, so while the rewards are great, the skill requirement and the situations might be too difficult.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Denti definitely knows about the lightweight refresh and trying to abuse it is a good way to get yourself upaired for free (which is also a good way to die early in lightweight).

I know, but then Denti has to focus on that, ergo it still limits Denti's options because he is forced to try and stop Aerolink from refreshing or suffer perpetual lightweight, this makes him more predictable, Aerolink knows he's gonna try and stop him from refreshing and so can use this to his advantage. We did see Denti failing to stop Aerolink from refreshing quite a few times, and we did see Denti taking damage while trying to stop him.

 

[|RK|]

Maybe I should be asking this on the Kirby or ZSS boards... but what is the Kirby/ZSS matchup ratio? Kirby shuts down so much of ZSSs moves (with crouch) that it's crazy.

 

[Brinzy]

So what's going on with Marth?

I just find it pretty insane that Japan thinks Marth is worse than Zelda. It seems like everyone else thinks he's pretty awful, too.

I don't know if this is simply because his worst matchups are very common and all share the trait of being absurdly fast or if the character is flawed somehow. I'm thinking that he's still a legitimate character himself but just not in this environment.

 

[Teshie U]

I know, but then Denti has to focus on that, ergo it still limits Denti's options because he is forced to try and stop Aerolink from refreshing or suffer perpetual lightweight, this makes him more predictable, Aerolink knows he's gonna try and stop him from refreshing and so can use this to his advantage. We did see Denti failing to stop Aerolink from refreshing quite a few times, and we did see Denti taking damage while trying to stop him.

Its not hard for diddy to be in position to upair her on reaction to seeing this. Its also not wise for her to give up position just to refresh lightweight. You don't want to sit in lightweight all the time, as it makes you easier to kill. Platforms also give people a safe place to hide from palutenas grab setups, which are pretty much what make her remotely scary.

You can easily cover lightweight down time with super speed, jump glide mobility and abusing her jab.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So what's going on with Marth?

I just find it pretty insane that Japan thinks Marth is worse than Zelda. It seems like everyone else thinks he's pretty awful, too.

I don't know if this is simply because his worst matchups are very common and all share the trait of being absurdly fast or if the character is flawed somehow. I'm thinking that he's still a legitimate character himself but just not in this environment.

Meh he does not seem below mid in my opinion so far it just seems hyperbole since this is his first lackluster existance in a smash game. but perhaps @ Shaya or @ Emblem Lord will be able to help you more with a detailed answer.

 

[Firefoxx]

Marth is just kinda average, but he gets brought up all the time in this thread because a lot of people see potential in that kit. But despite his (seeming) popularity there aren't many Marth players cause he can't control the match like he used to. Frame data isn't everything, but it matters and his isn't quite good enough

 

[Nocally]

If you want details on how Marth is, just go back some pages, we already got tons of information from Emblem Lord and others.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Meh he does not seem below mid in my opinion so far it just seems hyperbole since this is his first lackluster existance in a smash game. but perhaps @ Shaya or @ Emblem Lord will be able to help you more with a detailed answer.

If I type Marth and Shaya into the search engine I'll see like the same response given 500 times. Always followed by talk about Lucina because someone brought her up...
With the newfound exception of Emblem talking about picking up Custom Marth.

We should be talking about Kirby vs ZSS, Sheik, Rosa, Diddeh, Sonic.
Or Jiggles. Or Olimarz, or G&W or go back to Metaknight.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If I type Marth and Shaya into the search engine I'll see like the same response given 500 times. Always followed by talk about Lucina because someone brought her up...
With the newfound exception of Emblem talking about picking up Custom Marth.

We should be talking about Kirby vs ZSS, Sheik, Rosa, Diddeh, Sonic.
Or Jiggles. Or Olimarz, or G&W or go back to Metaknight.

Xd i just felt i had noplace to talk about him since hes not my main or was my main.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So what's going on with Marth?

I just find it pretty insane that Japan thinks Marth is worse than Zelda. It seems like everyone else thinks he's pretty awful, too.

I don't know if this is simply because his worst matchups are very common and all share the trait of being absurdly fast or if the character is flawed somehow. I'm thinking that he's still a legitimate character himself but just not in this environment.

I got a question for you.

Whats up with you and why do you care what other people say about a char you clearly have intentions to play?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I got a question for you.

Whats up with you and why do you care what other people say about a char you clearly have intentions to play?

*fistbump*

 

[Ffamran]

*fistbump*

Haha, your sig of DK doing a punch totally works with that post!

Anyway, with the Kirby vs. ZSS thing, Kirby, Mr. Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, Wii Fit Trainer, and maybe some other character like... Pikachu? can duck under a lot of ZSS's moves. This is Mr. G&W ducking under ZSS's moves: http://imgur.com/gallery/nIo5Az3/new?forcedesktop=1.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Haha, your sig of DK doing a punch totally works with that post!

Anyway, with the Kirby vs. ZSS thing, Kirby, Mr. Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, Wii Fit Trainer, and maybe some other character like... Pikachu? can duck under a lot of ZSS's moves. This is Mr. G&W ducking under ZSS's moves: http://imgur.com/gallery/nIo5Az3/new?forcedesktop=1.

Which garners the question of them vs ZSS.
Also doesn't Sheiks crouch go just as low, plus she has Crawl in her favor?

Or the full version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDvk3PMTVH0&feature=youtu.be

Last I recall Kirby and Jiggs have shorter crouches then G&W.

 

[meleebrawler]

Someone in Zard metagame thread felt that his Dedede matchup is 20-80.

Anyone find any evidence of great difficulty as Charizard facing him?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Someone in Zard metagame thread felt that his Dedede matchup is 20-80.

Anyone find any evidence of great difficulty as Charizard facing him?

Why would Charizard have a 20-80 against a slow character when Charizard is full of frame 4/5 Super armor, heavy armor, a flame thrower, a kill throw and top of the line grab range...

Unless there is some exploit I'm not aware of, definitely not.

 

[Smog Frog]

Why would Charizard have a 20-80 against a slow character when Charizard is full of frame 4/5 Super armor, heavy armor, a flame thrower, a kill throw and top of the line grab range...

Unless there is some exploit I'm not aware of, definitely not.

i think its something that you can be grabbed out of super armor and that zard is combo food
but if its bad i honestly dont think its worse than 6:4

 

[Ffamran]

20:80 is pretty severe and I don't think either of them can shut the other like that, but I don't play as either of them much, so I can't say much. Still, I don't think anyone in this game will have a 20:80 MU. 30:70 might be more plausible, but even then since it's early in the metagame.

 

[|RK|]

Which garners the question of them vs ZSS.
Also doesn't Sheiks crouch go just as low, plus she has Crawl in her favor?

Or the full version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDvk3PMTVH0&feature=youtu.be

Last I recall Kirby and Jiggs have shorter crouches then G&W.

Off the top of my head, Kirby can duck under grab, fsmash, jab, ftilt, dash attack, Paralyzer, side B (excluding the tip)...

 

[David Viran]

Off the top of my head, Kirby can duck under grab, fsmash, jab, ftilt, dash attack, Paralyzer, side B (excluding the tip)...

He doesn't duck under the tip of the grab or a ftilt angled low.

 

[meleebrawler]

The only thing I really see giving Zard a headache in the D3 matchup is the penguin's
superior range and disjoints, but then Zard has, like... faster everything except dtilt and nair.
He can get juggled, but he can also juggle back as long as he's mindful of D3's multiple jumps.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

i think its something that you can be grabbed out of super armor and that zard is combo food
but if its bad i honestly dont think its worse than 6:4

Grabs generally work if a hitbox isn't out and DDD isn't exactly known for landing options or air speed. So we can talk combo food, or we can talk juggling. Particularly when Charizard rather good at attacking enemies above him when his wings are disjointed, he is the fastest heavy on the ground, and he has one of the longest grab reaches in the game. These attributes not always particularly helpful but given DDD's landing "Strength" and being slow as molasses... definitely think 20:80 is someone getting very flustered.

Off the top of my head, Kirby can duck under grab, fsmash, jab, ftilt, dash attack, Paralyzer, side B (excluding the tip)...

SH aerials aren't practical either. If I recall its nearly model-touching moves, angled attack (which obviously applies to other things like Falcon,Ganon,Shulk, Rosa,etc Fsmash or suitable ftilts). Not that this is at all favourable given, for the grab to hit, she has overextended into Kirby/G&W/Puff's range.

 

[David Viran]

Grabs generally work if a hitbox isn't out and DDD isn't exactly known for landing options or air speed. So we can talk combo food, or we can talk juggling. Particularly when Charizard rather good at attacking enemies above him when his wings are disjointed, he is the fastest heavy on the ground, and he has one of the longest grab reaches in the game. These attributes not always particularly helpful but given DDD's landing "Strength" and being slow as molasses... definitely think 20:80 is someone getting very flustered.





SH aerials aren't practical either. She loses almost half her moveset if not half.

Nair can still work. It hits low and then she has all her safest ground moves mostly dtilt, ftilt, dsmash, even jab to an extent because if zss uses jab then kirby is close and would have to read it or get ftiltd or if the zss is crazy enough up b because you didn't shield.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Nair can still work. It hits low and then she has all her safest ground moves mostly dtilt, ftilt, dsmash, even jab to an extent because if zss uses jab then kirby is close and would have to read it or get ftiltd or if the zss is crazy enough up b because you didn't shield.

At this point Kirby can Ftilt or Dtilt back. Jiggly will have more issues given she is slower on the ground, G&W in a similar situation to Jiggly.
Probably doesn't matter since Crouch is like Frame 1, and if your option isn't checking for it, then you're at a significant frame disadvantage and Kirby, Jiggly, G&W, etc get to do whatever.

 

[David Viran]

At this point Kirby can Ftilt or Dtilt back.

His ftilt loses to jab and dtilt will lose to sheild.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Its not hard for diddy to be in position to upair her on reaction to seeing this. Its also not wise for her to give up position just to refresh lightweight. You don't want to sit in lightweight all the time, as it makes you easier to kill. Platforms also give people a safe place to hide from palutenas grab setups, which are pretty much what make her remotely scary.

You can easily cover lightweight down time with super speed, jump glide mobility and abusing her jab.

Aerolink couldn't easily cover lightweight down time with super speed, jump glide mobility and abusement of her jab. Diddy is very mobile and has tons of range with side-b and bananas. Your argument is a classic case of theory not working in practice; super speed has a cooldown, jump glide is highly punishable, and her jab can be circumvented in tons of ways. The jab is also the only really good grounded attack which she has, Diddy on the other hand has plenty to choose from, she can hardly keep Diddy out with her jab, the notion is ridiculous. Regardless, case in point: she is considerably more vulnerable when in her slow post lightweight state. Moreover Palutena's aerials combined with her mobility (especially when she's in lightweight) give her enough tools to pressure people on platforms, they are no sanctum.

You don't seem to get my point either. Why would you say that Palutena should sit in lightweight all the time? I've never said she should. For the record it does not make her easier to kill in the Diddy matchup since Diddys main KO's are aerials which are a lot easier to avoid in the lightweight state, sure she's lighter, but that doesn't matter when he can't pressure her in the air like he usually can.

But back to the point, anytime you know what your opponent wants to do you have the advantage of foresight. If you're halfway through lightweight you know that Diddy will be looking to keep you from refreshing it, this increases your chance of predicting what he's going to do and punishing him for it. Having a platform available just gives Diddy another thing we he has to pay attention to.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

His ftilt loses to jab and dtilt will lose to sheild.

I find this circular.
In the case Zss attacks a short character, to prepare for a crouch she can only go for a small amount of choices, whereas the opposition is not restricted in their moveset. Making the reality that Zss loses options when she engages on a short character. We can say "This loses to shield" well so does her Ftilt, you don't need to be short to shield her ftilt. What's more relevant is getting limited to that Ftilt in the situation that an opponent is not shielding.
The bottom line is these characters having an additional defensive maneuver over characters like ZSS and WFT (to be more specific) that reduce their offensive potential. Not accounting for their crouch/crawl can put you at a notable frame disadvantage, as crouching is about Frame 1. So we can say Jab beats Ftilt, but Crouch beats Jab, Crouch beats *a lot* of options, while retaining frame advantage. If your offensive options against their defense are limited then they're easier to predict, and as such it is naturally easier to make a read.

 

[David Viran]

I find this circular.
In the case Zss attacks a short character, to prepare for a crouch she can only go for a small amount of choices, whereas the opposition is not restricted in their moveset. Making the reality that Zss loses options when she engages on short character. We can say "This loses to shield" well so does her Ftilt, you don't need to be short to shield her ftilt. What's more relevant is getting limited to that Ftilt in the situation that an opponent is not shielding.
The bottom line is these characters having an additional defensive maneuver over characters like ZSS and WFT (to be more specific) that reduce their offensive potential. Not accounting for crouch, can put you at a notableframe disadvantage, as Crouch is well Frame 1. So we can say Jab beats Ftilt, but Crouch beats Jab, Crouch beats * a lot* of options, while retaining frame advantage. If your offensive options against their defense are limited then they're easier to predict, and as such naturally easier to read.

I wouldn't say kirby has a advantage in that situation though. I would say it's even. Yes crouching does affect stuff but some people seem to think zss has no options against crouching, not that you were saying that, and I was stating some.

 

[Blobface]

I'm curious how people feel about Kirby in general. I've never seen a Kirby in a tournament and he's barely ever talked about. He's got a great recovery and all and some really great true combos, but I just don't know enough about him to really say much.

 

[Timbers]

I wouldn't say kirby has a advantage in that situation though. I would say it's even. Yes crouching does affect stuff but some people seem to think zss has no options against crouching, not that you were saying that, and I was stating some.

It severely limits her options, and thus telegraphs what viable moves she can even throw out. Fox suffers from this as well, losing every option outside of DA and late sh nair. Angled ftilt, dtilt, and smashes will obviously hit, but all of these moves are heavily punished on shield ( I think in Fox's case, Kirby's dtilt also outranges Fox's dtilt/angled ftilt...and Kirby dtilt also gets much more % potential )

When you can severely limit options by simply throwing out crouches, you force the opponent to become predictable at a very low cost, while always being in an advantageous position.

I'm curious how people feel about Kirby in general. I've never seen a Kirby in a tournament and he's barely ever talked about. He's got a great recovery and all and some really great true combos, but I just don't know enough about him to really say much.

His range is still not great and he has overall bad frame data outside of jabs/tilts/bair. Should he find himself in a MU where range, zoning, and superior aerial games are not against him, I think he does very well, and crouch is also a powerful tool. Unfortunately, most of the viable cast does a very good job at keeping him out or just outranging anything he does.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm curious how people feel about Kirby in general. I've never seen a Kirby in a tournament and he's barely ever talked about. He's got a great recovery and all and some really great true combos, but I just don't know enough about him to really say much.

There was a Kirby in a Cali tournament. The two videos uploaded had him, M3, fight Ewaller and Germ's Mega Man.

Against Germ: https://youtu.be/4tfl6kYSels.

Against Ewaller: https://youtu.be/C2VOHo_oS2o.

There's also Mike Kirby.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Also I know its completly random but ima put out and say samus's slip bomb is garbage. go normal bomb or big bomb.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I'm curious how people feel about Kirby in general. I've never seen a Kirby in a tournament and he's barely ever talked about. He's got a great recovery and all and some really great true combos, but I just don't know enough about him to really say much.

Better suited to ground play then aerial play. He can bait in the air thanks to multi-jumps but he is strongest on the ground. Range is ass, but fortunately for him his short height makes landing aerials against him harder even before crouching is considered. He isn't shabby when it comes to fighting aerials given that to hit him at so low a height it sometimes requires missing your Auto-cancel windows.

Really doesn't like disjointed fighters, Rosalina seemingly being an exception. I said it back in October, if Kirby actually gets within range to do anything, he is a good character, but he struggles to get in range. Copy can be a very powerful ability but coupled with his difficulty engaging, its considerable start-up, and that he can be knocked out of it with a D-air from multiple characters the moment he copies, its hard to get that advantage when it is relevant. If a player figures out how to consistently get in with Kirby they wont have much problems excluding that Ganondorf will bloody murder you with the astronomical weight difference.

 

[Brinzy]

I got a question for you.

Whats up with you and why do you care what other people say about a char you clearly have intentions to play?

Sorry, didn't really mean to make it sound like a, "I want to play x but everyone says he sucks" type of deal.

I just think it's strange that people's opinion of Marth (and Lucina) has dwindled over time since the game has been out. I only ask here because, well, that's part of the point of this thread. It's fine though, I did a search for the most recent postings on it and was sated. No harm, no foul.