Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

Are we talking about how good the bair is stats wise or with the character?

 

[Antonykun]

Basically every character can brag about their Bair.

Except for Mac.

Mac's b-air can stage spike like a boss. Mac's the king of the skies.

 

[Smog Frog]

you want to know what i find disgusting? zard tipper bair being comparable in power to the knee. the more i study it the more i like it offstage and in air-air situations.

 

[warionumbah2]

Turns out Counter Timber is completely useless on MK, High Speed Drill goes through it and beats all of Villagers projectiles.

1 custom makes such a huge difference.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Are we talking about how good the bair is stats wise or with the character?

Isn't that just applications in general?

MM B-air is fast, super long range, multihit, and a KO move. Can't get better than that.

 

[David Viran]

Isn't that just applications in general?

MM B-air is fast, super long range, multihit, and a KO move. Can't get better than that.

Not completely like Ganondorfs Bair is very good with him but would be absolutely broken with someone like sheik.

Also MMs Bair could be better because the multi hit nature makes it less safe on shield.

 

[Terotrous]

- You're underestimating D3's ftilt. Like, criminally. It's meaty, has great range, destroys peanuts, can catch Flips...this move is good.

Is someone actually saying bad things about D3 FTilt? It's probably the best poke in the game.

its not that i have any problem analizing a characters strenghts i think peach has potential but its like the same thing with yoshi, if hes so great seriously where are the results?

Yoshi got results in STL last week. In customs on, even!

Pikachu-Sheik-Mario for me

Hilariously, coming from my Brawl / PM days of playing random select almost exclusively, I can't choose a secondary in this game. Yoshi is always my go-to character when I care about winning. I was considering Olimar and Samus (two of my better characters in Brawl), but ultimately I don't think they really patch up Yoshi's bad matchups much. Damn Yoshi, why must you be so solid that I don't need to play anyone else?

I applaud. You've pointed out the problem with many Smash viewers and players - and in fact, with many FGC viewers and players - in that they don't understand what it means to play footsies and would rather focus on the cool factor.

I think the problem is that it's almost impossible to convey the concept of spacing in words. The best I can do is:
"Each character has a different position where their attacks are most effective. You have to constantly battle for space so you get to your preferred spot and the opponent doesn't".

That explanation is not hype, it sounds dull. It actually is an incredibly complex and engaging mechanic, but unless you play fighting games at a high level you probably don't appreciate it.


Anyone else have a better way to try to explain it?

Basically every character can brag about their Bair.

Except for Mac.

Yoshi's Bair isn't really that great. It's probably his worst aerial overall.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not completely like Ganondorfs Bair is very good with him but would be absolutely broken with someone like sheik.

Not following you.

Sheik's Bair already is a KO option and it is 4 frames. Plus very low ending lag. One of the primary reasons Sheik is so good is because none of her aerials leave her open. Ganon's Bair has noticeable restrictions as a high hitting move that's 10 frames startup and 20 frames landing lag. While it is powerful, he leaves himself fairly open to punishes when it does not hit.

Ganon's Dash Attack in contrast is legitimately one of the best moves in the game, and would make other more mobile characters broken. How good the move is however really has nothing to do with what character has it as opposed to general applications.

As for Mega Man, there is basically nothing that beats his Bair directly, and it can't be powershielded. And it can kill.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Don't remind me, lol

Still, I like D3's new bair. At least it's not TOTALLY useless.

Smooth Criminal

The edgeguarding kills with that moves are awesome. But nothing is more satisfying than chaining Fairs offstage to their doom

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Honestly, I am more saddened by the loss of D3's Dair from Brawl. Being able to snatch opponents from the ground and punish spotdodges and shields was a lot more valuable to me than a risky meteor with incredibly slow startup frames and a small hitbox.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, I am more saddened by the loss of D3's Dair from Brawl. Being able to snatch opponents from the ground and punish spotdodges and shields was a lot more valuable to me than a risky meteor with incredibly slow startup frames and a small hitbox.

I really hate this change too. I've sort of gotten over Bair, but this one still makes no sense.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honestly, I am more saddened by the loss of D3's Dair from Brawl. Being able to snatch opponents from the ground and punish spotdodges and shields was a lot more valuable to me than a risky meteor with incredibly slow startup frames and a small hitbox.

The main reason this one stings more is the fact that D3's new Dair is terrible. A half-decent spike would make up for it for me because spiking is fun, even if it wound up not being quite as good. As is D3 might as well not have a Dair.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The main reason this one stings more is the fact that D3's new Dair is terrible. A half-decent spike would make up for it for me because spiking is fun, even if it wound up not being quite as good. As is D3 might as well not have a Dair.

Yeah if the startup frames were faster and it had a larger hitbox, I would've totally been fine with it. It might not have the same amount of synergy his old Dair had with the rest of his kit or covered the same options, but as you have said:

Spiking is mad fun.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, the new dair is pretty awful.

Still not as awful as Jet Hammer, though. I'll actually use dair if I get a hard read off-stage. Jet Hammer I consign to the Isle of Misfit Moves to never be used ever.

Smooth Criminal

 

[deepseadiva]

Hmmm seems Dedede has a lot of terrible moves

almost as if

he was a terrible

character

...

 

[Kofu]

One problem with Mega Man's BAir is that it doesn't easily autocancel. That's about it, though, it's a fantastic move every other way.

@ Shaya I actually feel like Dedede beats Game & Watch though I don't think it's horrible. I like all that you mentioned (I don't use crouching enough) and additionally Chef does a number on the King. The reason it's hard is because he has disjoints to match our own, and it's not like Game & Watch is a speed demon with his attacks. Plus Dedede thrives on rage, we have a hard time killing, and he doesn't.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hmmm seems Dedede has a lot of terrible moves

almost as if

he was a terrible

character

...

...jerk :v

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeavyLobster]

Hmmm seems Dedede has a lot of terrible moves

almost as if

he was a terrible

character

...

He doesn't have more than 3 or 4. The main problem with them is that 2 of them(DA, Dair) leave him with gaping holes in his approach and antijuggle game. He's not worse than Puff or someone like that in terms of number of useless moves, it's just that Puff's useless moves don't mess with her overall gameplan.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think the problem is that it's almost impossible to convey the concept of spacing in words. The best I can do is:
"Each character has a different position where their attacks are most effective. You have to constantly battle for space so you get to your preferred spot and the opponent doesn't".

That explanation is not hype, it sounds dull.

Dull... yah, I guess. But no work and all play makes Jack a lazy boy.

Not everything is hype, you gotta put in work as a player. I know this is the character competitive impressions, but I feel footsies still applies here. After all, it's important to know about footsies for any character you play.

My standard definition of footsies is the act of playing the game. Not your game, not your opponents game. THE game as a whole. Only when you play the game, you can think two steps ahead and react accordingly to your intelligent prediction (read).

Is there a guide that explains footsies around these boards? I feel like this should be made available in the competitive board.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Dull... yah, I guess. But no work and all play makes Jack a lazy boy.

Not everything is hype, you gotta put in work as a player. I know this is the character competitive impressions, but I feel footsies still applies here. After all, it's important to know about footsies for any character you play.

My standard definition of footsies is the act of playing the game. Not your game, not your opponents game. THE game as a whole. Only when you play the game, you can think two steps ahead and react accordingly to your intelligent prediction (read).

Is there a guide that explains footsies around these boards? I feel like this should be made available in the competitive board.

Is this not just an explaination of the neutral? cuz if so smash theory has a good vid on it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dull... yah, I guess. But no work and all play makes Jack a lazy boy.

Not everything is hype, you gotta put in work as a player. I know this is the character competitive impressions, but I feel footsies still applies here. After all, it's important to know about footsies for any character you play.

My standard definition of footsies is the act of playing the game. Not your game, not your opponents game. THE game as a whole. Only when you play the game, you can think two steps ahead and react accordingly to your intelligent prediction (read).

Is there a guide that explains footsies around these boards? I feel like this should be made available in the competitive board.

@ Emblem Lord made something a long time ago about the three states of fighting games.

 

[deepseadiva]

He doesn't have more than 3 or 4. The main problem with them is that 2 of them(DA, Dair) leave him with gaping holes in his approach and antijuggle game. He's not worse than Puff or someone like that in terms of number of useless moves, it's just that Puff's useless moves don't mess with her overall gameplan.

I'm just being a **** xD

Nah I think it's more important to have at least one abusable trait, rather than counting useless moves. ...though three to four is kind of a lot...

 

[Smog Frog]

i view the 3 states of the game as following: noone has been hit(aka no one is in position to be followed up on), you have been hit(disadvantage) and you got a hit(advantage)

of course thats gross oversimplification, but thats just the mind of a low-mid level player

 

[Locke 06]

MM BAir doesn't AC out of SH or FH fast fall (without delaying the fast fall by like... 5 frames)

Has quite a bit of landing lag, is not safe on shield (sheik) and you need to start it early against grounded opponents due to its multi-hit nature.

Air-air though, it's so good... But MM Uair is where it's at currently.

 

[deepseadiva]

i view the 3 states of the game as following: noone has been hit(aka no one is in position to be followed up on), you have been hit(disadvantage) and you got a hit(advantage)

of course thats gross oversimplification, but thats just the mind of a low-mid level player

Theorycrafters on here have been doing that same simplification for awhile. They call it neutral, advantage, etc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Theorycrafters on here have been doing that same simplification for awhile. They call it neutral, advantage, etc.

Stop saying the word theory.

The correct word for this instance is reality.

 

[thehard]

Hmmm seems Dedede has a lot of terrible moves

almost as if

he was a terrible

character

...

I think you should leave.

 

[NairWizard]

i view the 3 states of the game as following: noone has been hit(aka no one is in position to be followed up on), you have been hit(disadvantage) and you got a hit(advantage)

of course thats gross oversimplification, but thats just the mind of a low-mid level player

It isn't an oversimplification. In this game, you should always be thinking in these terms: neutral, advantage, and disadvantage.
Always think about what state of the game you're in during the match, and behave appropriately.

Recognizing that you are in disadvantage, and that you need to get out/reset (not try to turn it into an advantageous situation) is important. Resetting to the ledge, drifting away (and mixing up your drift direction), fastfalling at the right times, recovering smartly... all part of the package.

Recognizing that you are in neutral and no longer in disadvantage/advantage is important. You should stop trying to push your advantage if you were in advantage before. You should stop trying to reset/run away if you aren't in disadvantage any longer. You have to start playing the neutral game the moment you're put back into neutral, otherwise the opponent will take the neutral from you right away. This is something often called momentum. Seize neutral, and prevent momentum.

Recognizing that you are in advantage, and that you should make the most of your advantage, is important, and the degree of capitalization separates top players from most other players. Push your advantage as far as it will go. But again, recognize when you are in neutral again, and just accept that. What you actually do in the neutral depends on your character (for example, empty hop -> jab/dash grab is strong on Sheik and Falcon, while crouch -> d-tilt is strong on Pikachu).

Just keep a little mental checklist that should fire in your head the moment something key happens. You just got grabbed? Bam. Going to be in disadvantage in a second. Start thinking about how to DI out of that situation, if the ledge is nearby, what your opponent's followup will be...

that sort of thing. You shouldn't just press buttons that you think are smart. Think about what moves are good in what state. It's not just theory; these states apply to every match, and can improve your game in every match.

 

[deepseadiva]

Resetting to the ledge

Isn't this a worse spot for most characters? Obviously not when recovering, but stage to ledge definitely sounds like a step back.

 

[Locke 06]

Isn't this a worse spot for most characters? Obviously not when recovering, but stage to ledge definitely sounds like a step back.

When you are getting juggled indefinitely by Marth or Mega Man because you have no way to challenge or get out of their disjointed UAir traps, the ledge is better situation than getting juggled.

 

[NairWizard]

Isn't this a worse spot for most characters? Obviously not when recovering, but stage to ledge definitely sounds like a step back.

When you reset to the stage you give your opponent a chance to punish your landing. This varies from matchup to matchup (some characters have top-tier ledge pressure) and from situation to situation, but you should frequently be drifting toward the ledge to avoid your opponent's followups after being knocked in the air. Would you rather get hit by a Diddy up-air or be on the ledge against Diddy? For me, the choice is obvious. I'd rather be on the ledge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Isn't this a worse spot for most characters? Obviously not when recovering, but stage to ledge definitely sounds like a step back.

Honestly there are only like two characters in this game that I really don't like ledge resetting against. One is Sheik. The other is Bowser Jr. Other than that ledge resets are universally really good in this game, and a big reason why being heavy is much more valuable in this game when most characters have to rely on grabs to consistently ledge pressure.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honestly there are only like two characters in this game that I really don't like ledge resetting against. One is Sheik. The other is Bowser Jr. Other than that ledge resets are universally really good in this game, and a big reason why being heavy is much more valuable in this game when most characters have to rely on grabs to consistently ledge pressure.

Yeah, heavies are scary to stare down near the ledge when you know that the right read can end you at like 50%. DK in particular has great tools for pressuring cornered foes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, heavies are scary to stare down near the ledge when you know that the right read can end you at like 50%. DK in particular has great tools for pressuring cornered foes.

Not really.

Charizard has the best ledge pressure options of heavies due to his grab range and Dthrow (arguably Firebreath deserves some respect though it is very punishable). But the best ledge pressure options overall go to Sheik (SideB ) and Bowser Jr (Usmash and Mechakoopa) imo.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Charizard has the best ledge pressure options of heavies due to his grab range and Dthrow (arguably Firebreath deserves some respect though it is very punishable).

Rock Smash, F-smash (good range), and D-smash as well. Jab is also very quick, jab -> jab 2 -> UpB is scary.

 

[Jaxas]

But the best ledge pressure options overall go to Sheik (SideB )

What? Grenade is far, far too laggy to be good ledge pressure; if you throw it at the ledge, you're still in lag as the person on the ledge just rolls through it.

Unless I'm doing something horribly wrong (which is entirely possible) but seeing as there's I think 1 person total (other than myself, for a specific niche use) arguing for keeping the default grenade in a single custom set, I think if it helped out there that much more people would like it...

Anyways, do you have any videos of people (especially at high level) using grenade as ledge pressure? I'd love to see them if so; I've been needing to step my game up there

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nade is good for trump traps or for when they are closing in on the ledge. Not when they have already grabbed it.

 

[NairWizard]

Honestly there are only like two characters in this game that I really don't like ledge resetting against. One is Sheik. The other is Bowser Jr. Other than that ledge resets are universally really good in this game, and a big reason why being heavy is much more valuable in this game when most characters have to rely on grabs to consistently ledge pressure.

Never grab the ledge against Pikachu. He will trump you, get up with his superior get-up time (it's half that of non-tether characters), and then edgeguard you. It's a terrible option in this matchup for almost all characters. Just reset to the stage, because as long as you avoid the landing up-smash you're fine vs. his low-damage aerials.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Oklahoma had this tournament this week with a Megaman player, and all his edgeguard attempts involved Bair.

There was this one instance in Grand Finals where the opposing Sheik kept getting walled offstage by Bair, so he took the low route to avoid it. Megaman literally fell all the way down to the bubble area, double jumped, rising Bair'd, connected and KO'd, and Rush Coil'd back to the ledge.

Slash Claw's dumb.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What? Grenade is far, far too laggy to be good ledge pressure; if you throw it at the ledge, you're still in lag as the person on the ledge just rolls through it.

Unless I'm doing something horribly wrong (which is entirely possible) but seeing as there's I think 1 person total (other than myself, for a specific niche use) arguing for keeping the default grenade in a single custom set, I think if it helped out there that much more people would like it...

Anyways, do you have any videos of people (especially at high level) using grenade as ledge pressure? I'd love to see them if so; I've been needing to step my game up there

As EL said, Grenade is good when you use it before they grab the ledge. If you're already ready to detonate the grenade by then, you can cover a lot of options very safely and confirm KO options reactively.

I know M2K stated a while ago that Grenade was good for ledge traps, and while I don't yet agree with him on some of his character ranking opinions, I usually find his strategical advice very helpful.

Never grab the ledge against Pikachu. He will trump you, get up with his superior get-up time (it's half that of non-tether characters), and then edgeguard you. It's a terrible option in this matchup for almost all characters. Just reset to the stage, because as long as you avoid the landing up-smash you're fine vs. his low-damage aerials.

I'm going to look at that right now. If what I think you're saying is true...why has nobody talked about it until now?