Character Competitive Impressions

[Saturn_]

To be honest, I dont care much about tier list people make. Due to mostly people judging a book by its cover and not learning all the character can do. On top of that alot of people don't know match ups. If a easy mode character beats a character that takes hella work, the hard working character main would usually saythis match up is bad. When that person does not know all thier options. I had Peach players saying how greninja was a hell match up. I sat with NinjaLink for 2 hours losing that match up till I finally realized how to do it. Then I was able to beat him. All the Greninjas I was losing too I was beating. Apex 2015 I had to fight for second seed against a greninja and I won. I fought other greninjas that thought that match up was free and now they see that Peach gives that character problems.

I said this before but Peach is a seriously hard character to use. Thats why you don't hear alot of them doing justice. Some people even quit her because of it and ran to a character that simple. I'm not judge anything base on stuff like this. Really when the game is still in its baby stages. And also another reason tourney results hold lil to me.

It's also worth remembering too that there have barely been any tournaments to draw results from anyhow - even if twenty characters can win a national, we won't know until we play at least twenty nationals. Tier lists are irrelevant until AT LEAST Evo this year, and even then they'll still be rough estimates.

EDIT: As a C.Falcon main, one of the easiest characters to play, my gentle rebuke would be that most people quit over a clash between their playstyle and the character's moveset, not over how technical a char is to play. I actually messed around with Peach a bit when I first picked up the game, because she's my secondary in Melee, but I wasn't wild about the moveset and switched, mostly because I don't like playing characters who use Up-B to kill.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don’t like Peach v. D3 tbh. Frame traps too stronk, forced to respect her buttons a lot. Other than that, I think it's about even-ish.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Saturn_]

I don’t like Peach v. D3 tbh. Frame traps too stronk, forced to respect her buttons a lot. Other than that, I think it's about even-ish.

Smooth Criminal

Serious question, who do you think D3 wins the matchup with? Everyone, yourself included, seems to think D3 is doodoo. Are his winning matchups, like, GnW and Charizard and no one else?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Serious question, who do you think D3 wins the matchup with? Everyone, yourself included, seems to think D3 is doodoo. Are his winning matchups, like, GnW and Charizard and no one else?

He beats Kirby and Little Mac. I think he also beats MK. Can't think of anyone else he beats for sure.

 

[HeroMystic]

EDIT: As a C.Falcon main, one of the easiest characters to play, my gentle rebuke would be that most people quit over a clash between their playstyle and the character's moveset, not over how technical a char is to play. I actually messed around with Peach a bit when I first picked up the game, because she's my secondary in Melee, but I wasn't wild about the moveset and switched, mostly because I don't like playing characters who use Up-B to kill.

This is pretty much the same reason why I can't main Rosalina. I dislike the fact I have to rely on Luma and when she isn't around I'm supposed to go into full camp mode. While Mario is straightforward, he provides the speed and aggressive nature I look for. Similarly, I love playing as Samus because even though she's underpowered, she has a versatile kit for combos and clutching on mindgames.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I agree with the accepted sentiment that D3 beats G-Dubs. There's really not much the little guy can do to stop him except maybe run and prey on over-commitment---which, for G-Dubs, lends itself to be lackluster. Charizard, on the other hand, is kinda contentious to me, especially with customs on. If we do win the MU right now, I'll probably feel like the Zard was doing it wrong.

@ HeavyLobster

Kirby and Mac, I'll give you, though Mac is closer to winning it than you think. MK? Zero knowledge. What do you think, though? I'm curious.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

To be honest, I dont care much about tier list people make. Due to mostly people judging a book by its cover and not learning all the character can do. On top of that alot of people don't know match ups. If a easy mode character beats a character that takes hella work, the hard working character main would usually saythis match up is bad. When that person does not know all thier options. I had Peach players saying how greninja was a hell match up. I sat with NinjaLink for 2 hours losing that match up till I finally realized how to do it. Then I was able to beat him. All the Greninjas I was losing too I was beating. Apex 2015 I had to fight for second seed against a greninja and I won. I fought other greninjas that thought that match up was free and now they see that Peach gives that character problems.

I said this before but Peach is a seriously hard character to use. Thats why you don't hear alot of them doing justice. Some people even quit her because of it and ran to a character that simple. I'm not judge anything base on stuff like this. Really when the game is still in its baby stages. And also another reason tourney results hold lil to me.

I agree. I think peach is bloody awsome, shes just a big ole bag of potential.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Stream was out of wack but we live now. Www.twitch.tv/darkpch

 

[HeavyLobster]

Kirby and Mac, I'll give you, though Mac is closer than you think. MK? Zero knowledge. What do you think, though? I'm curious.

Smooth Criminal

I don't really have much experience vs MK myself as Dedede. I'm mostly going on theorycraft, as I don't see how MK gets kills. He also has poor airspeed, and Dedede's tools for stuffing grounded approaches are better than his anti-aerial tools. It just seems like the kind of MU Dedede would do well in. I usually just go Ganon against MK, as he tends to do pretty well there.

 

[Antonykun]

But Andy's not using Morton and you should obviously represent our lord and saviour boy, .

Still, the defensive play was pretty interesting and it's probably because there's actual trapping like Pac-Man while Rosalina's defensive play is well, defensive. At least with Luma Warp and Shoot Star Bit aka FALCO LASER, BUT BETTER *grumbles*, it can get interesting, but I think Rosalina can be much more aggressive with customs.

Andy was using Villager and you know it

hey @ Dark.Pch if you're still here Peach vs Villager...
as a peach main, do you find that MU is interesting as I do?
While peach doesn't get that much off aerials floats her grounded floats are strong because villagers ground game is so weak.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Being optimistic, I quite like the approach of getting viewers involved with the 'tense' aspect that is part of footsies, instead of focusing on how 'crazy radical' those 'sick combos' are. We established a long time ago we're not like most other fighters (or in some aspects, like previous smash games) but it might take time for viewers to get that.

I applaud. You've pointed out the problem with many Smash viewers and players - and in fact, with many FGC viewers and players - in that they don't understand what it means to play footsies and would rather focus on the cool factor.

There are many, many Smash players I've met during tournaments that just have straight tunnel vision and only focus on "what is safe" or doing a wall-jump to sweetspot Knee with Falcon. What they don't seem to realize is that they're only focusing on playing their game, and they are not playing THE game.

 

[warionumbah2]

Mk has kill setups that can kill d3 at 120 on some stages and even earlier on TnC/Helbird. Not counting f smash reads since it probably won't happen as much.

MK air speed is better than kirby and d3s combined, he's the only kirby series contender that doesn't have horrible mobility, despite having good anti ground approach tools hes extremly easy to punish at mid range.

Gordo throws at mid range is basically inviting MK into his space, a simple dash into shield to block the gordo works wonders all before d3 can even throw out a move.

MK can actually snag early edgeguards on d3, if he throws a gordo to cover himself MKs aerial mobility allows him to go under the gordos trajectory and punish with a rising nair. D3s punishes hurt alot however and his range is far greater than MKs, on FD which imo MKs worse stage its in d3s favor but on platform stages/low celing stages its in MKs favor d3 becomes a jail bait toy or that one guy that drops the soap.

Ganon destroys MK on bf, any other stage I say its close to even from my experience. I usually camp hard or time him out, especially when a ganon plays lagless. Staying in the air lowers the potential threat.

 

[deepseadiva]

I forgot about this since I sometimes go on video linking rampages. It's late, but on the defensive play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNN6-twQPA.

I don't know how Bower Jr.'s supposed to be played, but being able to set up traps like that is pretty cool and being able to carefully plan out everything would make for an interesting, albeit boring game for most people. By most, people who don't defensive play, don't like long matches, don't care for strategy, etc.

I'm glad this Bowser Jr got brought it up because it's something I had not seen before but shows him working so effectively. The strategy here gets to highlight all of Jr's projectiles working in tandem, allowing him to sit back and control the match how he pleases, but with Clown Car... he can keep feinting, but at the sight of an opening fly in and punish. And punish with combos.

I had been losing faith in Bowser Jr, but now I'm totally ramped up about that kid again.

 

[Brinzy]

Well to be honest your always playing zelda's game witch is neutral. Her neutral aint great or even good. But the chick legit has no advantage or disadvantage.

On the contrary, she's at a disadvantage because she can't approach due to a lack of speed, a lack of good approaching aerials, and excessive lag on her abilities. In a non-tournament situation, people are generally more willing to approach Zelda because, well, Smash is fun. However, in a situation where winning matters more than anything else, nobody is going to approach a character who has good OoS options and terrible everything else, especially when they can force that character to approach to begin with.

I would not say her neutral game is a neutral. I would say it's bad. I've said this many times over the years: Zelda is a fundamentally flawed character, and nothing short of significant speed increases or a straight up rework is going to fix this. I can guarantee you that if four new Smash games come out and Zelda plays exactly the same, she's going to be awful in every single one of those games.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I forgot about this since I sometimes go on video linking rampages. It's late, but on the defensive play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNN6-twQPA.

I don't know how Bower Jr.'s supposed to be played, but being able to set up traps like that is pretty cool and being able to carefully plan out everything would make for an interesting, albeit boring game for most people. By most, people who don't defensive play, don't like long matches, don't care for strategy, etc.

Thanks for the video. Are there more of this player? His Jr is definitely unlike any other, and an interesting contrast to Tweek's pretty aggressive Jr.

 

[meleebrawler]

He's done the best because he's repped by a high level player who has played him since Brawl, and he's largely unchanged from that game.

DK doesn't have a fair and his upb oos is good but nowhere near as good as Bowser's. Bowser's upb is a huge deal. It makes him so much more safe and better at punishing than the other two. His jab is the best of the three and that's also really important for all of them since they rely on their boxing game a lot. Pretty sure Zard still has the longest grab range and dash speed, but I think Bowser's is still longer than DK's.

The only core tool where DK outdoes Bowser is his bair. Bowser's bair is still useable though and is good for killing, whereas DK doesn't have a fair.

And Bowser doesn't have a nair, at least not for defense. For all intents and purposes, DK Nair is his Fair.
Bowser definitely has the safest jab, but I don't recall him being able to link it into an up b for the kill... hi Charizard.
DK may have the worse grab of the three, but he makes up for it with the best grab game thanks to his
cargo, in particular cargo-uthrow which sets up nicely for uair which not only has slightly more range than Bowser's,
but also lingers just long enough to punish air dodges. Then there's the standard Bthrow kill throw. Zard's throws
aren't too special outside Dthrow being a better kill throw than average, but at least his side throws can set up his
superior edge-guarding. Bowser has a decent Fthrow kill and maybe low percent followups out of uthrow
but that's it. He probably has the worst edge guard of the three because all he really has is fair, which is
good but not hard to see coming and dodge thanks to his poor air speed. Bair is terrific if landed but that'll
be hard because of the poor range and, again, poor air speed. Dair is suicide, and Nair will never properly connect
in that scenario.

And if DK or Zard find themselves in disadvantage, they can at least try to defend themselves with
nair and dair. DK can dodge with air speed, and Zard can tank with Rock Smash. All Bowser can do
is maybe go for the odd, highly punishable dair or bomb, or try to bomb the edge.

Finally, most of Bowser's mobility comes dashing, since he has one of the worst walking speeds in the
game and his air speed isn't much better. Customs off, DK is the nimblest heavy hands down.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

On the contrary, she's at a disadvantage because she can't approach due to a lack of speed, a lack of good approaching aerials, and excessive lag on her abilities. In a non-tournament situation, people are generally more willing to approach Zelda because, well, Smash is fun. However, in a situation where winning matters more than anything else, nobody is going to approach a character who has good OoS options and terrible everything else, especially when they can force that character to approach to begin with.

I would not say her neutral game is a neutral. I would say it's bad. I've said this many times over the years: Zelda is a fundamentally flawed character, and nothing short of significant speed increases or a straight up rework is going to fix this. I can guarantee you that if four new Smash games come out and Zelda plays exactly the same, she's going to be awful in every single one of those games.

i still stand by the idea that if she could hold a phantom charge she would be fine.

 

[Brinzy]

i still stand by the idea that if she could hold a phantom charge she would be fine.

It would be a nice buff, but

- it can be reflected
- it can be flat out destroyed or bypassed
- she has absurd lag on the move depending on how strong the phantom is... talking more lag than things like Falcon Punch. This would actually limit her ability to use the move off the stage when at-level or below level

I still would want this option, but it wouldn't fix her. She's got too many problems.

 

[Ffamran]

Thanks for the video. Are there more of this player? His Jr is definitely unlike any other, and an interesting contrast to Tweek's pretty aggressive Jr.

That was the latest one uploaded on showdowngg. You could search Andy_Sauro and find him.

 

[Dre89]

Can someone explain to me why Luigi is considered so good this game

I know he has throw combos and stuff, but I figured he still had all the same problems from Brawl, like no range or approach

 

[Saturn_]

I applaud. You've pointed out the problem with many Smash viewers and players - and in fact, with many FGC viewers and players - in that they don't understand what it means to play footsies and would rather focus on the cool factor.

There are many, many Smash players I've met during tournaments that just have straight tunnel vision and only focus on "what is safe" or doing a wall-jump to sweetspot Knee with Falcon. What they don't seem to realize is that they're only focusing on playing their game, and they are not playing THE game.

I agree with what you're saying, but I also don't blame fans who find footsies boring compared to Marth 11-hit 0-to-death juggles on FD.

 

[Pyr]

Can someone explain to me why Luigi is considered so good this game

I know he has throw combos and stuff, but I figured he still had all the same problems from Brawl, like no range or approach

He has some of the best frame data in the game and, arguably, is the biggest terror when he gets in. Literally everything he has access to is sub-frame 12 and he has next to no landing lag on most aerials.

See:

1. Jab1
2. Frame 2- 3: 3% 100f/20w 50°
3. Frame 2- 3: 3% 100f/20w 65°
4. Frame 2- 3: 3% 100f/20w 90°
5. Max Damage: 3%
6. Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 6
7. 
   
8. Jab2
9. Frame 3- 4: 2% 100f/20w 60°
10. Frame 3- 4: 2% 100f/15w 70°
11. Max Damage: 5%
12. Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 7
13. 
    
14. Jab3
15. Frame 6- 7: 5% 65b/80g (KO@ 285%) 361°
16. Max Damage: 10%
17. 
    
18. Dash Attack
19. Frame 48-48: 2% 60b/128g (KO@ 327%) 361° 0.3-Trip 2.5-Hitlag
20. Max Damage: 2%
21. 
    
22. F-tilt (high)
23. Frame 5- 7: 8% 2b/100g (KO@ 244%) 361°
24. Max Damage: 8%
25. 
    
26. F-tilt (normal)
27. Frame 5- 7: 8% 2b/100g (KO@ 244%) 361°
28. Max Damage: 8%
29. 
    
30. F-tilt (low)
31. Frame 5- 7: 8% 2b/100g (KO@ 244%) 361°
32. Max Damage: 8%
33. 
    
34. U-tilt
35. Frame 5-10: 6% 8b/150g (KO@ 213%) 100°
36. Max Damage: 6%
37. 
    
38. D-tilt
39. Frame 5- 8: 8% 38b/54g (KO@ 412%) 74° 0.35-Trip
40. Max Damage: 8%
41. 
    
42. F-smash (high)
43. Frame 12-13: 15%(+5) 20b/121g (KO@ 112%) 65° Pierce
44. Max Damage: 15%
45. 
    
46. F-smash (normal)
47. Frame 12-13: 15%(+5) 20b/116g (KO@ 115%) 53° Pierce
48. Max Damage: 15%
49. Smash charge window on real frame 5
50. 
    
51. F-smash (low)
52. Frame 12-13: 15%(+5) 20b/117g (KO@ 103%) 45° Pierce
53. Max Damage: 15%
54. 
    
55. U-smash
56. Frame 9-13: 14% 35b/98g (KO@ 135%) 110°
57. Frame 9-13: 12% 35b/98g (KO@ 159%) 110°
58. Max Damage: 14%
59. Smash charge window on real frame 7
60. Begins partial invincibility on real frame 9
61. End partial invincibility on real frame 14
62. 
    
63. D-smash
64. Frame 6- 7: 15% 40b/80g (KO@ 164%) 120°
65. Frame 6- 7: 14% 40b/80g (KO@ 176%) 120°
66. Frame 14-15: 15% 40b/100g (KO@ 113%) 60°
67. Frame 14-15: 14% 40b/100g (KO@ 123%) 60°
68. Max Damage: 30%
69. Smash charge window on real frame 3
70. 
    
71. Nair
72. Frame 3- 5: 12% 20b/90g (KO@ 183%) 90°
73. Frame 6-31: 6% 20b/100g (KO@ 303%) 80°
74. Max Damage: 12%
75. Enables transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
76. Cancels transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 36
77. 
    
78. Fair
79. Frame 7-10: 9% 30b/80g (KO@ 232%) 361°
80. Max Damage: 9%
81. Enables transition to Fair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 2
82. Cancels transition to Fair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 21
83. 
    
84. Bair
85. Frame 6- 7: 14% 12b/100g (KO@ 134%) 361°
86. Frame 6- 7: 8% 12b/100g (KO@ 230%) 361°
87. Max Damage: 14%
88. Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
89. Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 33
90. 
    
91. Uair
92. Frame 5- 7: 11% 0b/100g (KO@ 212%) 55°
93. Frame 8-11: 7% 0b/100g (KO@ 212%) 55°
94. Max Damage: 11%
95. Enables transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 2
96. Cancels transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 19
97. 
    
98. Dair
99. Frame 10-10: 10% 20b/80g (KO@ 317%) 270° 2.0-Hitlag Aerial-Target-Only
100. Frame 11-14: 8% 20b/100g (KO@ 218%) 361°
101. Max Damage: 10%
102. Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 6
103. Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 24
104. 
     
105. Grab
106. Frame 6- 7: Grab
107. Enables state transition on real frame 8

If he gets in, he gets IN.

 

[Dre89]

He has some of the best frame data in the game and, arguably, is the biggest terror when he gets in. Literally everything he has access to is sub-frame 12 and he has next to no landing lag on most aerials.

See:



If he gets in, he gets IN.

Ohk cool, so did his frame data or lag get buffed from Brawl?

 

[Pyr]

Ohk cool, so did his frame data or lag get buffed from Brawl?

Well, compare to the Data dump from Brawl I found in a quick search:

-------------------------------------------------------
Punch 1

Total: 15
Hit: 2-3
IASA: N/A
Window of the 2nd punch: ?-29
2nd punch starts: 7 (or later)

Hitlag: 6
Shield Stun: 2
Advantage: -11
Advantage w/ 2nd Punch: -4
-------------------------------------------------------
Punch 2

Total: 18
Hit: 3-4
IASA: N/A
Window of the Butt: ?-29
Butt starts: 8 (or later)

Hitlag: 5
Shield Stun: 1 [stunned for 1/60th of a second. good s*** Brawl, lol]
Advantage: -14
Advantage w/ Butt: -7
-------------------------------------------------------
Butt

Total: 35
Hit: 5-6
IASA: 32

Hitlag: 6
Shield Stun: 2
Advantage: -24
-------------------------------------------------------
F-Tilt

Total: 37
Hit: 5-10
IASA: 33

Hitlag: 8
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -24
-------------------------------------------------------
D-Tilt

Total: 37
Hit: 5-8
IASA: 35

Hitlag: 8
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -26
-------------------------------------------------------
U-Tilt

Total: 29
Hit: 5-10
IASA: N/A

Hitlag: 8
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -22 (back hit); -18 (front hit)

-------------------------------------------------------
Dash Attack

Total: 68
Hit: 4, 10, 16, 22, 29, 37, 48
IASA: N/A

Hitlag: ? [forgot to do this one >_<]
Shield Stun: ?
Advantage: ?
-------------------------------------------------------
F-Smash

Total: 41
Hit: 12-13
IASA: 29 (only when attack is angled UP)
Charge Frame: ?5

Hitlag: 10 (all)
Shield Stun: 4 (normal & down); 5 (up)
Advantage: -25 (normal & down); -11 (up)
-------------------------------------------------------
U-Smash

Total: 39
Hit: 9-13
IASA: N/A
Charge Frame: ?7
Head Invincible?: ?-? [dunno if it's still there, but it was in Melee]

Hitlag: 9; 10 (frame 9)
Shield Stun: 4; 5 (frame 9)
Advantage: -25 (back); -22 (front)


-------------------------------------------------------
D-Smash

Total: 37
Hit: 5-6, 14-15
IASA: N/A
Charge Frame: ?3

Hitlag: 11
Shield Stun: 5
Advantage: -27 (front); -18 (back)
-------------------------------------------------------
N-Air

Total: 45
Hit: 3-31 (Strong 3-6; Weak 7-31)
IASA: N/A
Auto Cancel: <2 36>
Landlag: 14
Landlag IASA: 11

Hitlag: 10 (strong); 7 (weak)
Shield Stun: 4 (strong); 2 (weak)
Advantage: -6 (strong); -8 (weak)
-------------------------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 5-11 (Strong 5-7; Weak 8-11)
IASA: 30
Auto Cancel: 19>
Landlag: 23
Landlag IASA: 14

Hitlag: 10 (strong); 7 (weak)
Shield Stun: 4 (strong); 2 (weak)
Advantage: -9 (strong); -11 (weak)
-------------------------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 46
Hit: 6-16 (Strong 6-10; Weak 11-16)
IASA: 37
Auto Cancel: <5 33>
Landlag: 17
Landlag IASA: 13

Hitlag: 9 (strong); 8 (weak)
Shield Stun: 4 (strong); 2 (weak)
Advantage: -8 (strong); -10 (weak)
-------------------------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 32
Hit: 10-14
IASA: 29
Auto Cancel: <5 24>
Landlag: 17
Landlag IASA: 13

Hitlag: 9
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -9
-------------------------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 35
Hit: 7-10
IASA: 24
Auto Cancel: 21>
Landlag: 30
Landlag IASA: 23

Hitlag: 8
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -19
-------------------------------------------------------
Luigi Tornado

Total: 80
Hit: 7, 15, 23, 31, 44
Window to hop off the ground: ?-? [from Melee. dunno if it's still there or not]

Hitlag: 6 (last hit)
Shield Stun: 1 (last hit)
Advantage: -35
-------------------------------------------------------
Fireball

Total: 46
IASA: 41
Fireball comes out: 17
Fireball lasts: 48 frames

Hitlag: 7
Shield Stun: 2
-------------------------------------------------------
Green Missile

Starts charging: 18
Fully charged on: 107

--Upon Release--
Total: 72
Hit: 5-?44
Landlag: Varies; 13-?41 frames of lag

Hitlag: 6 (uncharged); 14 (misfire); 15 (full charge)
Shield Stun: 1 (uncharged) 8 (misfire); 8 (full charge)
-------------------------------------------------------
Super Jump Punch

Total: ?
Hit: 6-?23
Invincible?: ?-? [again, it was there in Melee, but I didn't test it]
Can grab edge as soon as: ?
Landlag: 45

Hitlag: 14 (strong); 5 (weak)
Shield Stun: 8 (strong); 0 (weak...)
-------------------------------------------------------
Grab
Total: 29
Grab: 6-7

Running Grab
Total: 39
Grab: 12-13

Grab Attack
Total: 23
Hit: 16
-------------------------------------------------------
Air Dodge
Total: 49
Invincible: ?-?30

Ground Dodge
Total: ? [25]
Invincible: ?-?21
IASA: 26

Roll (Forward)
Total: 35 [31]
Invincible: ?-?18
IASA: 32

Roll (Backward)
Total: 31
Invincible: ?-?18
IASA: N/A
-------------------------------------------------------
Ledge Grab & Hold

Total: 383
Invincible: ?-?45
IASA: ?
-------------------------------------------------------
Ledge Stand <100%
Total: 34
Invincible: ?-?28

Ledge Stand 100%>
Total: ?
Invincible: ?-?
-------------------------------------------------------
Ledge Roll <100%
Total: 49
Invincible: ?-?28

Ledge Roll 100%>
Total: ?
Invincible: ?-?
-------------------------------------------------------
Ledge Attack <100%
Total: 55
Hit: ?24-?
Invincible: ?-?21
Hitlag: ?
Shield Stun: ?
Advantage: ?

Ledge Attack 100%>
Total: ?
Hit: ?-?
Invincible: ?-?
Hitlag: ?
Shield Stun: ?
Advantage: ?
-------------------------------------------------------
Ledge Jump <100%
Total: 47
Invincible: ?-?16
IASA: 16

Ledge Jump 100%>
Total: ?
Invincible: ?-?
IASA: ?
-------------------------------------------------------
Getup-Stand (Stomach & Back)
Total: 29
Invincible: ?-?23

Getup-Roll (Stomach; Forward)
Total: 35
Invincible: ?-?20

Getup-Roll (Stomach; Backward)
Total: 35
Invincible: ?-?22

Getup-Roll (Back; Forward)
Total: 35
Invincible: ?-?22

Getup-Roll (Back; Backward)
Total: 35
Invincible: ?-?23

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 50
Hit: ?-?
Invincible: ?-?27
Hitlag: ?
Shield Stun: ?
Advantage: ?

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: ?-?
Invincible: ?-?26
Hitlag: ?
Shield Stun: ?
Advantage: ?
-------------------------------------------------------
Jump Startup: 5 (airborne on frame 6)

Full Jump
Air-Time: 79
Earliest FF: ?
FF Air-Time: 62

Short Hop
Air-Time: 51
Earliest FF: ?
FF Air-Time: 38

2nd Jump
Air-Time: 70
Earliest FF: ?
FF Air-Time: 55
-------------------------------------------------------
Landing Lag (includes airdodge landings)

Slow fall Landlag: 15
Slow fall Landlag IASA: 3

Fast/High fall Landlag: 30
Fast/High fall Landlag IASA: 5
-------------------------------------------------------
Shield Release: 15
Shield Release IASA: 9

Dash becomes Run at frame: 11
Run brake skid: 9 frames
Dash-Turn Threshold (dashdance): ?7
Run Turnaround: ?

_________________

DSmash is 1 frame slower on hit one, all of his aerials start up faster, and a few property changes on Dattack, D-B default, and his Dair are buffs. His Up-B was nerfed, but not that badly.

Plus, not being able to airdodge out of the world helped his combo game, which was strong in Brawl.

 

[Shaya]

I agree with the accepted sentiment that D3 beats G-Dubs.

Is this Brawl G&W mains saying D3 beats Gdubs?
I haven't gone into particular extra-depth in that match up (played Tyrant and "Jun" [who mains him] in SoCal though), but we fall/jump out of jab at 0% onwards, which is nice. Dthrow to side-b works on you until like 60%. We can dash attack oos punish your entire moveset. You cannot land against him at all (crouching watch, hidden game).
Backair can go above ftilt, as can full hop fair. It's extremely easy to get both hits of up air on you, which can kill at like 110%ish, can combo from sour fair, single up air, nair, sour dash attack or up-b (my favourite).

Our jab is frame 4 and reliably reflects gordos. Every time you use up-b you'll get up-b'd back.

I feel like G&W runs circles around Dedede and then maybe dies to a rage down tilt at like 90% near the ledge if he messes up. He's honestly probably the hardest out of all the fatties for G&W though because of disjoints.

 

[Brinzy]

I secretly wish I could play Luigi.

... Well I guess it isn't a secret anymore.

Spoiler

Tell me he ain't fly

 

[DavemanCozy]

I also don't blame fans who find footsies boring compared to Marth 11-hit 0-to-death juggles on FD.

If you're a fan / viewer, then whatever, they can watch what's hype to them. But that wasn't the reason I took that snippet from Luco's post.

The reason I took it was because there are many, many Smash players who have no idea what footsies actually are. I've seen it repeatedly in both Smash games: in Melee tournaments, the typical new player is attempting the same thing over and over. In Smash4, the same things I keep seeing in tournament from new players.

But most of all, I'm seeing a radically massive amount of users flooding these boards who don't know anything about footsies. Most likely, they are coming from the For Glory on-line environment where most players keep falling for the same things over and over again, and the worst of all is some of them give advice based on this. These players are not playing footsies. Take this thread for example and look at some of the comments.

I'm not going to lie, I've been guilty of this too, particularly in this thread. I just recently had a holy "what the actual crap, this game is complicated" revelation on what it means to play footsies.

So while I don't blame the viewers who just want to watch a game being played, I do think that playing footsies is grossly shoved away in the Smash scene. The ones who say they are "players" but don't like studying footsies are essentially ignoring how to play the game as a whole if all they want to see is "sick" 0->death combos. Without properly understanding footsies, none of these players are ever going to hope to get those combos in Melee or use all the new tech being found for Smash4 properly.

 

[Pyr]

I secretly wish I could play Luigi.

... Well I guess it isn't a secret anymore.

Spoiler

Tell me he ain't fly

He was my main for a long, long time. My time in Melee. My time in Brawl. I became known for my Wigi.

But I dropped him for this game because I absolutely hate his short hop. I can't get past it. It just feels... Wrong. I just can't handle it. Maybe in time I can accept the wiggle feet... But, for now, I'll stick to shoving pills down people's throats and giving them a prostate exam to remember.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It would be a nice buff, but

- it can be reflected
- it can be flat out destroyed or bypassed
- she has absurd lag on the move depending on how strong the phantom is... talking more lag than things like Falcon Punch. This would actually limit her ability to use the move off the stage when at-level or below level

I still would want this option, but it wouldn't fix her. She's got too many problems.

well i guess better air speed and dins fire not free falling would be nice too.
But remember that phantom is frame 1 release though. Thats, well really good!
but overall i do agree.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

well i guess better air speed and dins fire not free falling would be nice too.
But remember that phantom is frame 1 release though. Thats, well really good!
but overall i do agree.

Phantom may be F1 release but when do the hitboxes first come out?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

i still stand by the idea that if she could hold a phantom charge she would be fine.

They should've given Zelda the monado.

 

[Ffamran]

Going to repost this here and in the Falco customs thread:

All right, Falco's Fast Fire Bird is really, really interesting. When used on the ground if you hold (diagonally) down, Falco ends with a roll instead of sliding. It might be a placebo, but it looks like he can act out of the roll faster than the slide. I have no idea why he rolls, but it seems like a shorter "landing" animation than the free fall slide. Falco also travels a shorter distance because he doesn't. If this becomes a thing, then Falco has a tech that should be called Fire Roll.

The other one is a bit trickier mostly because it seems to require a precise angle input which is annoying with the Circle Pad or something like pressing down to fast fall at low angle launch. What happens is that Falco doesn't roll or land in free fall, but lands sort of at idle and slides forward. I think he can immediately act out of that which means a Fast Fire Bird sliding Smash, tilt, Jab, or grab could be a thing. Hmm, Fire Slide?

I wonder of Fox can do this with his Jet Boots custom... I wonder why I posted this in the Zelda Social.

Oh, and Falco can stop/lessen the momentum of FFB either by holding down to fast fall it or just not holding towards where he's going.

To add to this, the roll also happens with default Fire Bird, Distant Fire Bird, and Fox's Fire Fox. The major idea is Fast Fire Bird's speed and what seems like a shorter end lag, Falco has an awesome burst movement, especially if someone can consistently pull of the Fire Slide.

 

[Quickhero]

They should've given Zelda the monado.

This will never happen, you know how good Zelda would become if they gave her a good special.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

The other one is a bit trickier mostly because it seems to require a precise angle input which is annoying with the Circle Pad or something like pressing down to fast fall at low angle launch. What happens is that Falco doesn't roll or land in free fall, but lands sort of at idle and slides forward. I think he can immediately act out of that which means a Fast Fire Bird sliding Smash, tilt, Jab, or grab could be a thing. Hmm, Fire Slide?

I noticed a while back that if you launch Fire Fox/Bird at just the right angle you can act immediately when you land and I figured that Fast Fire Bird Falco would love it if mastered. I mentioned it in y'alls gameplay thread about a month ago but no one said anything so I figured y'all knew about it already or something. It seems really nifty.

 

[DavemanCozy]

The other one is a bit trickier mostly because it seems to require a precise angle input which is annoying with the Circle Pad or something like pressing down to fast fall at low angle launch. What happens is that Falco doesn't roll or land in free fall, but lands sort of at idle and slides forward. I think he can immediately act out of that which means a Fast Fire Bird sliding Smash, tilt, Jab, or grab could be a thing. Hmm, Fire Slide?

I wonder of Fox can do this with his Jet Boots custom... I wonder why I posted this in the Zelda Social.

Oh, and Falco can stop/lessen the momentum of FFB either by holding down to fast fall it or just not holding towards where he's going.

To add to this, the roll also happens with default Fire Bird, Distant Fire Bird, and Fox's Fire Fox. The major idea is Fast Fire Bird's speed and what seems like a shorter end lag, Falco has an awesome burst movement, especially if someone can consistently pull of the Fire Slide.

Fox can actually do this (the slide) with his custom UpB3, which I like to call a Barrel Roll. Best thing about it, it's powerful as all mighty Usmash, KOs at 100% from centre stage

 

[Ffamran]

I noticed a while back that if you launch Fire Fox/Bird at just the right angle you can act immediately when you land and I figured that Fast Fire Bird Falco would love it if mastered. I mentioned it in y'alls gameplay thread about a month ago but no one said anything so I figured y'all knew about it already or something. It seems really nifty.

I remember that, but I didn't have his customs and Fire Bird's not that exactly great.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Custom combo vid.

Falco is interesting.

Of course the King of Altea makes his appearance at the end. He did some things I didn't know were possible. Great jab resets too.

 

[Dre89]

The sad thing about Diddy is that he can actually be quite technical, but he doesn't need to be because of how dumb he is. Zero won Apex by spamming SH fair and grab with really solid fundamentals.

I hope down the track we'll have to start resorting to nana tech to win games. Also @ Shaya I remember you mentioned awhile back that Diddys might need to start using popgun cancels. Could you elaborate on that, because I don't see how they're useful in this game. The only situation is when you're looking to KO with an aerial, and you need to turn around because either fair or bair is stale.

The only useful application was the sideb b reverse popgun cancel, because it reversed your momentum. But that's possibly been secretly patched out because a couple of day ago it went from being super easy to borderline impossible with the same inputs.

 

[Superbat]

Shadow man blade to up tilt combo is the truth. Only complaint with this video is that a majority of the combos are techable and probably DI as well. Other than that sick video

 

[Brinzy]

Shadow man blade to up tilt combo is the truth. Only complaint with this video is that a majority of the combos are techable and probably DI as well. Other than that sick video

I think the main reason they showed that is to show that you can force a tech chase, and if you predict properly you can follow up with another combo. I imagine that the things you can DI can still force other followups, like say a fair instead of an uair depending on who you're watching.

Still, there are a lot of things in that video that I'd love to try. Once again, i really wish I knew how to play Luigi.