Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

Phantom may be F1 release but when do the hitboxes first come out?

from what i know frame 1 as well.

 

[Pyr]

from what i know frame 1 as well.

Frame Data. I believe this is at release.

1. Phantom Slash (uncharged horizontal slash)
2. Frame 2-10: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
3. Frame 11-11: 6% 30b/100g (KO@ 259%) 361° Slash
4. Max Damage: 6%
5. 
   
6. Phantom Breaker (uncharged horizontal slash)
7. Frame 2-10: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
8. Frame 11-11: 5%(+10) 30b/100g (KO@ 298%) 361° Slash
9. Max Damage: 5%
10. 
    
11. Phantom Strike (uncharged horizontal slash)
12. Frame 2-10: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
13. Frame 11-11: 8% 100f/90w 0° Slash
14. Max Damage: 8%
15. 
    
16. Phantom Slash (partially charged overhead slash)
17. Frame 2-11: [0%]x2 100f/20w 361° Ground-Target-Only
18. Frame 2-11: [0%]x2 100f/9w 361° Aerial-Target-Only
19. Frame 2-14: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
20. Frame 13-14: 8% 30b/80g (KO@ 257%) 361° Slash
21. Max Damage: 8%
22. 
    
23. Phantom Breaker (partially charged overhead slash)
24. Frame 2-11: [0%]x2 100f/20w 361° Ground-Target-Only
25. Frame 2-11: [0%]x2 100f/9w 361° Aerial-Target-Only
26. Frame 2-13: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
27. Frame 13-13: 7%(+15) 30b/80g (KO@ 288%) 361° Slash
28. Max Damage: 7%
29. 
    
30. Phantom Strike (partially charged overhead slash)
31. Frame 2-11: [0%]x2 100f/40w 361° Ground-Target-Only
32. Frame 2-11: [0%]x2 100f/15w 361° Aerial-Target-Only
33. Frame 2-13: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
34. Frame 13-13: 10% 80f/120w 20° Slash
35. Max Damage: 10%
36. 
    
37. Phantom Slash (fully charged uppercut slash)
38. Frame 2-23: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
39. Frame 6-15: [0%]x2 100f/25w 361° Ground-Target-Only
40. Frame 6-15: [0%]x2 100f/12w 361° Aerial-Target-Only
41. Frame 18-19: 3% 90b/10g 62° 2.0-Hitlag Slash
42. Frame 24-27: 5% 32b/100g (KO@ 323%) 50° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
43. Max Damage: 8%
44. 
    
45. Phantom Breaker (fully charged uppercut slash)
46. Frame 2-23: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
47. Frame 6-15: [0%]x2 100f/25w 361° Ground-Target-Only
48. Frame 6-15: [0%]x2 100f/12w 361° Aerial-Target-Only
49. Frame 18-19: 2%(+10) 90b/10g 62° 2.0-Hitlag Slash
50. Frame 24-27: 4%(+20) 32b/100g (KO@ 380%) 50° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
51. Max Damage: 6%
52. 
    
53. Phantom Strike (fully charged uppercut slash)
54. Frame 2-17: 0% 0b/0g 0° Slash
55. Frame 6-15: [0%]x2 100f/60w 361° Ground-Target-Only
56. Frame 6-15: [0%]x2 100f/10w 361° Aerial-Target-Only
57. Frame 18-19: 5% 90b/10g 80° 2.0-Hitlag Slash
58. Frame 24-27: 7% 100f/130w 30° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
59. Max Damage: 12%

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can someone explain to me why Luigi is considered so good this game

I know he has throw combos and stuff, but I figured he still had all the same problems from Brawl, like no range or approach

Way buffed fireballs (nonsense is like, ZSS paralyzer insane) and dashgrab. That with having the best D-throw in the game and generally ludicrous damage per hit topped with frame tight combos...that's why he's good.

Luigi is one of the only characters from Brawl with straight usability buffs and virtually no nerfs, barely even any damage nerfs, in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4, discounting any system changes. The only real nerf to him is loss of frame advantage on Jab cancels, but he still has enough of a frame advantage to grab you before you can grab him after Jab.

Luigi's insane fireball by itself changes the game, giving him a scary neutral game which especially combined with his much faster dashgrab...is pretty stupidly good.

 

[Radical Larry]

Way buffed fireballs (nonsense is like, ZSS paralyzer insane) and dashgrab. That with having the best D-throw in the game and generally ludicrous damage per hit topped with frame tight combos...that's why he's good.

Luigi is one of the only characters from Brawl with straight usability buffs and virtually no nerfs, barely even any damage nerfs, in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4, discounting any system changes. The only real nerf to him is loss of frame advantage on Jab cancels, but he still has enough of a frame advantage to grab you before you can grab him after Jab.

Luigi's insane fireball by itself changes the game, giving him a scary neutral game which especially combined with his much faster dashgrab...is pretty stupidly good.

Of course, you have to consider his Fireballs at a long range, which aren't a good tool considering others have far better attacks for long range. Yes, they're good short to medium, but unsafe in long range against other ranged attackers, like Samus. Samus can get a Charge Shot off on Luigi if he shoots a Fireball from a longer range due to the slow speed of the attack.

Luigi's D-Throw is in the top 5, but also definitely not the best in the game. I can argue that Sheik, Diddy, Captain Falcon or Ganondorf (with customs on or off) have the best D-Throws as well. Or I can argue that many other characters have the best in the game.

 

[Pyr]

Of course, you have to consider his Fireballs at a long range, which aren't a good tool considering others have far better attacks for long range. Yes, they're good short to medium, but unsafe in long range against other ranged attackers, like Samus. Samus can get a Charge Shot off on Luigi if he shoots a Fireball from a longer range due to the slow speed of the attack.

Luigi's D-Throw is in the top 5, but also definitely not the best in the game. I can argue that Sheik, Diddy, Captain Falcon or Ganondorf (with customs on or off) have the best D-Throws as well. Or I can argue that many other characters have the best in the game.

Why Ganon? All he can get off of it later on is U-Air and Dropkick. It doesn't really set up for anything past 40ish%. I'd argue Megaman is in that top 5 just because of how many traps you can get out of it.

 

[wm1026]

What's the senses on custom little Mac? I mean having a recovery option that has super armor and ignores shield can't be to terribly bad. I actually think Mac becomes a bit better with customs and other than characters with reflectors, I think he becomes more viable.

 

[Ffamran]

Why Ganon? All he can get off of it later on is U-Air and Dropkick. It doesn't really set up for anything past 40ish%. I'd argue Megaman is in that top 5 just because of how many traps you can get out of it.

I think Ganondorf can get Dash Attack out of it, but I'm not sure. Maybe Flame Choke? Wizard's Foot and Dropkick work, but I don't know about Wizard's Assault.

 

[Pyr]

I think Ganondorf can get Dash Attack out of it, but I'm not sure. Maybe Flame Choke?

Na. Flame Choke has 15~ frames start up IIRC. They can SH and make it wiff. His U-Air and maybe Nair are barely fast enough to get a hit in. Maybe RAR Bair, too. Dropkick starts missing if they DI Up and away at around 70~%.

D-Tilt/F-Tilt works, along with D-A, at lower percents. Higher, though, they start missing too.

Ganon's D-Throw isn't the worst, but to say it's top 5 is far from true. I mean, Luigi gets kills/combos. Megaman gets combos/mixups. Even Peach's offers more advantage then Ganon's. I'm not convinced it's top 5.

Edit: I just told you how to get hit by dropkick much later then you should. I changed that error.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I think peach's is up there. It combos into back air and can be used for some nasty nair resets to obtain 60% on the opponent.

 

[deepseadiva]

This will never happen, you know how good Zelda would become if they gave her a good special.

This post was so shady oh my gosh

What's the senses on custom little Mac? I mean having a recovery option that has super armor and ignores shield can't be to terribly bad. I actually think Mac becomes a bit better with customs and other than characters with reflectors, I think he becomes more viable.

What scares me more is all the giant windboxes that certain characters suddenly have access to with customs.

 

[Radical Larry]

Why Ganon? All he can get off of it later on is U-Air and Dropkick. It doesn't really set up for anything past 40ish%. I'd argue Megaman is in that top 5 just because of how many traps you can get out of it.

Actually, he can get more out of it than just that:

D-Throw > F-Air (Works better on bigger characters)
D-Throw > Dash Attack
D-Throw > Frame Perfect N-Air
D-Throw > Wizard's Foot (Albeit only on specific characters, mainly heavyweights, big characters and fast-fallers)
D-Throw > RAR B-Air

All of these are extremely hard to land, but they are still capable of hitting from D-Throw. Ganon can also get some combos off if you are near-perfect on hitting your opponent, especially with D-Throw > F-Air. At higher damages, however, one D-Throw chain could be done, and that is D-Throw > U-Air, which, since there's enough space now, you can simply double jump and use the U-Air.

I'm not lying, these all work, but again, let me state that these are extremely hard to land! It doesn't mean that you can't hit with them, it just means you need extremely fast reflexes to actually hit with them, since it goes so far. At least one benefit of a D-Throw with Ganon is that if he whiffs, it's relatively safe, as most opponents will opt to air dodge or do their second jump.

A character with the most powerful throws can't get much combos, but he does get damage to top the throws off.

 

[Pyr]

Actually, he can get more out of it than just that:

D-Throw > F-Air (Works better on bigger characters)
D-Throw > Dash Attack
D-Throw > Frame Perfect N-Air
D-Throw > Wizard's Foot (Albeit only on specific characters, mainly heavyweights, big characters and fast-fallers)
D-Throw > Pivoted B-Air (Run, turn, jump and B-Air)

All of these are extremely hard to land, but they are still capable of hitting from D-Throw. Ganon can also get some combos off if you are near-perfect on hitting your opponent, especially with D-Throw > F-Air. At higher damages, however, one D-Throw chain could be done, and that is D-Throw > U-Air, which, since there's enough space now, you can simply double jump and use the U-Air.

I'm not lying, these all work, but again, let me state that these are extremely hard to land! It doesn't mean that you can't hit with them, it just means you need extremely fast reflexes to actually hit with them, since it goes so far. At least one benefit of a D-Throw with Ganon is that if he whiffs, it's relatively safe, as most opponents will opt to air dodge or do their second jump.

A character with the most powerful throws can't get much combos, but he does get damage to top the throws off.

Ya. I mentioned D-attack, RAR B-Air, Dropkick, and Nair in a previous post. I really don't think Fair works. It might, but I've never landed it outside of a read or baiting an airdodge. I'm 99% sure Bair works, but barely. It's frame 10 and Fair is frame 14. Might require testing.

And ya. I know you're not lying. I've been a Ganon fan since the WiiU's release, so I know how tight the timings are. That said, there are better D-Throws out there. Ones that lead to more. Though, with conditioning, Ganon's D-Throw becomes a machine of reads. With that said, quite a few characters don't need to make reads to do the same damage/get kills.

It's not bad by any means, but there are better D-Throws.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ya. I mentioned D-attack, RAR B-Air, Dropkick, and Nair in a previous post. I really don't think Fair works. It might, but I've never landed it outside of a read or baiting an airdodge. I'm 99% sure Bair works, but barely. It's frame 10 and Fair is frame 14. Might require testing.

And ya. I know you're not lying. I've been a Ganon fan since the WiiU's release, so I know how tight the timings are. That said, there are better D-Throws out there. Ones that lead to more. Though, with conditioning, Ganon's D-Throw becomes a machine of reads. With that said, quite a few characters don't need to make reads to do the same damage/get kills.

It's not bad by any means, but there are better D-Throws.

I acknowledge that now, but to let you know, it is possible to land a F-air on an opponent without them being able to air dodge or jump out of the way. It requires very tough timing, however, and you can do this twice.

However, I'll try testing to see if he can actually land a chain grab with this. (As in, if my theory is correct, he can D-Throw > F-Air > D-Throw > F-Air if the timing is right.)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ya. I mentioned D-attack, RAR B-Air, Dropkick, and Nair in a previous post. I really don't think Fair works. It might, but I've never landed it outside of a read or baiting an airdodge. I'm 99% sure Bair works, but barely. It's frame 10 and Fair is frame 14. Might require testing.

And ya. I know you're not lying. I've been a Ganon fan since the WiiU's release, so I know how tight the timings are. That said, there are better D-Throws out there. Ones that lead to more. Though, with conditioning, Ganon's D-Throw becomes a machine of reads. With that said, quite a few characters don't need to make reads to do the same damage/get kills.

It's not bad by any means, but there are better D-Throws.

D-throw F-air from Ganon is devastating by the edge where if you DI towards Ganon, it COMBOS. Meanwhile if you DI away and he F-throws, that can also be lethal. D-throw F-air by the ledge can kill people at like 70% easy.

But as I was saying earlier, the best combo throw in the game is Luigi's D-throw. Move sets up free hits like forever that you can't DI away from if he reacts correctly, AND he gets KO confirms from it like N-air, Up-B, and Cyclone.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Type 5 dthrow list no ZSS.....=/ . I think there's a lot of characters with good dthrow a lot better than ganon....

Falco dr. Mario peach pitt MK mario zss rob have some pretty good stuff from dthrow.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Type 5 dthrow list no ZSS.....=/ . I think there's a lot of characters with good dthrow a lot better than ganon....

Falco dr. Mario peach pitt MK mario zss rob have some pretty good stuff from dthrow.

If you're going to talk characters with good combo throws that aren't named Luigi...I'd suggest the following:

Diddy, Ike, Falco, ZSS, Ness, Palutena, MK, DeDeDe, G&W, and Rosalina

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you're going to talk characters with good combo throws that aren't named Luigi...I'd suggest the following:

Diddy, Ike, Falco, ZSS, Ness, Palutena, MK, DeDeDe, G&W, and Rosalina

Yeah I figured I forgot some characters. But while you're here how do you feel about custom doc?

 

[Ffamran]

Type 5 dthrow list no ZSS.....=/ . I think there's a lot of characters with good dthrow a lot better than ganon....

Falco dr. Mario peach pitt MK mario zss rob have some pretty good stuff from dthrow.

Falco's D-throw follow ups are iffy. A while back, D-throw to Dash Attack was all the rage, but people can DI out of it even at low percents and characters with fast Nair's like Luigi can punish Falco for using D-throw to Dash Attack. Now, D-throw to RAR Bair, Nair, Fair, and Up Smash on heavies are considered more. Perhaps Dtilt, Ftilt, and Utilt as well. In other words Dash Attack isn't going to work all the time and some argue it's not as good as using RAR Bair, Fair which can cause a grab reset of the opponent DIs badly, or another throw.

Shaya advocates for U-throw to Uair, Bair, etc. U-throw is more utilitarian since at low percents it true combos with Uair while at higher percents, it sets up kills and it allows Falco to put someone into disadvantage where even if they aim to reset by going to a platform or the ledge, if Falco knows, he can punish. Then there's the fact that U-throw can kill if the opponent doesn't DI for whatever reason and let's the laser hit them.

I messed around with F-throw and yes, it can be followed up with Dash Attack, but at early percents, probably bad DI, and fast fallers or anyone who's not a floaty. F-throw to Falco Phantasm works at low percents and so does Fast Fire Bird which for all intents and purposes, is a Falco Phantasm on fire. The issue is that FFB only does 2%, but it's still an option. Also, with the mention of rolling out of Fire Bird and a perfect landing, Falco could F-throw and FBB to chase. A Fire Roll might not be safe, but a Fire Slide would since Falco would land and slide at idle. I still have to check and there's no actual results yet, except for hitting with FBB.

Aside from Dash Attack, I don't know what else you could do except fire off a shot which you could do for B-throw and D-throw for style points. To sum it up, Falco gets a lot out of throws, especially D-throw and U-throw.

 

[meleebrawler]

It would be a nice buff, but

- it can be reflected
- it can be flat out destroyed or bypassed
- she has absurd lag on the move depending on how strong the phantom is... talking more lag than things like Falcon Punch. This would actually limit her ability to use the move off the stage when at-level or below level

I still would want this option, but it wouldn't fix her. She's got too many problems.

Zelda herself lags the same after the move no matter what charge it's at, the only difference is how
long she has to wait before she can use it again. Even if it lags off-stage, she can still go very deep
because Farore's reaches very far. It's part of why Zelda's edge-guard game is one of her best assets.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda herself lags the same after the move no matter what charge it's at, the only difference is how
long she has to wait before she can use it again. Even if it lags off-stage, she can still go very deep
because Farore's reaches very far. It's part of why Zelda's edge-guard game is one of her best assets.

I meant the phantom. The sword comes out on frame 11 with the weakest charge and frame 18 on the strongest one.

Also her edgeguarding game is definitely one of her best assets, because she has basically no other assets, so I guess you are correct there. I still would not chase way the hell in no man's land just because her Up B has a far range, because her aerials are really awful and a lot of the stronger characters in the game are better off stage... but I guess it depends on the situation.

 

[StripedNinja]

It does really depend on the character you're trying to edgeguard. Pikachu can gimp many characters reliably as he has fast aerials, can go very deep and also reach high recoveries with a well placed thunder cloud spike, but remember that he doesn't have a single aerial with high knockback. Some recoveries are relatively easy to intercept but long-reaching, like Pit's, and Pikachu would have to hit Pit several times without screwing up to kill him where Ganon would just stomp on his face once and be done with it. It's not as clear cut as "this character is always better at edgeguarding than this one". Ganon and Pika's edgeguarding styles are pretty different and they both have their merits.

Fair has decent knock back and can actually fully connect with the way SDI works in this game

 

[Pazzo.]

Custom combo vid.

Falco is interesting.

Of course the King of Altea makes his appearance at the end. He did some things I didn't know were possible. Great jab resets too.

That makes me wat to pick up Falco as a pocket even more.

I wonder what Olimar could do with Tackle Order....

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganon's B-Air is probably the most dangerous B-Air of any character, considering if you land it repeatedly. It's safe on shield, it definitely hurts shields, and it does quite a lot if you know how to use it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

What's the senses on custom little Mac? I mean having a recovery option that has super armor and ignores shield can't be to terribly bad. I actually think Mac becomes a bit better with customs and other than characters with reflectors, I think he becomes more viable.

Little Mac should always be using Neutral2 in a customs environment. Neutral2 charges faster, hits multiple times, can actually be used as a recovery option because of the faster charge, and the multihits are very hard to DI out of. Some like the Neutral3, as it travels the farthest distance and can paralyze targets when fully charged, but it has the same charge time as the default. IMO, this makes 2 superior as you can travel faster. Whichever your preference is, both are direct upgrades from his otherwise situational default Neutral.

SideB's vary. The default does what it does best as a quick hop to escape a sticky situation onstage (as long as you don't SD) and serves as horizontal recovery. Side2 is grounding blow and puts scary pressure onstage, getting buried gives Mac a guaranteed U-smash. The drawback is how he falls down fast, which means he's got very little horizontal recovery. The unblockable side3 ignores shields and is very powerful onstage, but it's got even worse recovery than the others. All of them are worth using, depending on your preference.

Up1 is the best out of all the UpB's because it has the most distance from the ground which nets important KOs. Up2's trades the damage and knockback for more distance in the air, while Up3 trades distance for more power and knockback... and hey, it also adds startup and ending lag. Ew. Overall, Up1 > Up2 >>> Up3.

All the counters are good too. Down2 has faster startup and less cooldown, but it deals less damage than the default. Down3 has him dash much farther upon countering, making it useful if successful in the air.

 

[wm1026]

This post was so shady oh my gosh



What scares me more is all the giant windboxes that certain characters suddenly have access to with customs.

True, but that's why you recover low on those characters. I'm not saying he is top tier or high or mid high tier. All I'm saying is that he shouldn't be just tossed aside assuming he can't win anything. I now think little Mac has a real fighting chance, but we just need to give him that chance.

EDIT: Also Mac's side B 2(the one that grounds) can also spike! It spikes diagonally too, and let me tell you spiking someone to death as Mac has to be one of the most satisfying thing ever. Also if spaced correctly it will snap to the ledge from on stage giving easy ledge trumps.

 

[Antonykun]

As far as Down throws, sanic's is the most underrated I have seen. It allows for some bs tech chases.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ganon's B-Air is probably the most dangerous B-Air of any character, considering if you land it repeatedly. It's safe on shield, it definitely hurts shields, and it does quite a lot if you know how to use it.

DK wants a word.

 

[Radical Larry]

As far as Down throws, sanic's is the most underrated I have seen. It allows for some bs tech chases.

It's similar to Jiggs' D-Throw, not too many setups for it to be worth it. I honestly think Sonic's F-Throw acts like a D-Throw.

DK wants a word.

Well, unlike DK, Ganondorf's B-Air is faster in terms of landing and end lag, and has more power to it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

DK wants a word.

D3, too. Disjointed, lots of active frames, can kill, low recovery after landing/grounding it via fastfall, nice damage on shield plus pushback on hitting said shield...

Only downside is that it doesn't come out fast like, say, Ganon's.

Smooth Criminal

 

[deepseadiva]

Basically every character can brag about their Bair.

Except for Mac.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It's similar to Jiggs' D-Throw, not too many setups for it to be worth it. I honestly think Sonic's F-Throw acts like a D-Throw.



Well, unlike DK, Ganondorf's B-Air is faster in terms of landing and end lag, and has more power to it.

lol im certain dk's bair is faster than ganon's and has less landing lag.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Idk, I wanna say Ganon's comes out quick too. Prolly not as quickly as DK's bair, but still.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Idk, I wanna say Ganon's comes out quick too. Prolly not as quickly as DK's bair, but still.

Smooth Criminal

there both quick i know that much at least.

 

[wedl!!]

Luigi's D-Throw is in the top 5, but also definitely not the best in the game. I can argue that Sheik, Diddy, Captain Falcon or Ganondorf (with customs on or off) have the best D-Throws as well. Or I can argue that many other characters have the best in the game.

is that a joke

 

[Road Death Wheel]

is that a joke

Larry will be larry,he means well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

RIP Brawl Dedede's Bair.

 

[HeavyLobster]

DK's Bair is overall better, but Ganon's could be argued to be more dangerous because of its superior kill power while still being quite fast and safe. DK's has a significantly better hitbox in addition to being faster and less laggy, though, and has respectable kill power in its own right, so it's definitely the superior move overall.

RIP Brawl Dedede's Bair.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

RIP Brawl Dedede's Bair.

Don't remind me, lol

Still, I like D3's new bair. At least it's not TOTALLY useless.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sinister Slush]

Except for Yoshi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah I figured I forgot some characters. But while you're here how do you feel about custom doc?

I'd ask @TTTTTsd about Doc, but imo main bad matchup in customs is ZSS given Doc has a lot of trouble punishing Flip Jump (best options for punishing it are D-air and default Tornado) and ZSS's punish game is about on par with his. Fast Pills though do help him a lot in neutral.

Also on the subject of B-airs, best one period is Mega Man's.