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Character Competitive Impressions

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Road Death Wheel

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Alright i iv finished testing out that samus infinite combo out and i can say its DIable (or im simply doing it wrong)
but goodness its some nice tech regardless. Its really good damage on an easy to land move. im really excited to really get good at doing it. reminds me of shiek fair strings.
 
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Antonykun

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Yes. Yes I do feel the Hero-King has the juice with customs. I am now devoting 100% of my energy into custom Marth. I have no plans to go to EVO but NJ has embraced (well, re-embraced really) customs and there are a few tournies lined up with customs on.

I don't even care if I get last place. I'm just hype that I will be having actual fun with my main.
Rip Emblem Lord's Swordfighter.
Seriously though, if ypu got any info on them, share plox. Anything that helps me land those U-airs are appreciated.

I for one am on a thriller know as customs Villager.
 

NairWizard

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Pikachu-Sheik-Mario for me.

Been coming to that conclusion for a while. Have dropped several characters along the way, won tournaments with a few of them. Had a long long long Mii Gunner on-and-off stint but couldn't get over the KO issue ultimately, so he went down.

These 3 play similarly enough to each other that I don't have to vary my playstyle too much, either (aside from differences like Bouncing Fish vs. QA lol). I view Sheik as a Pikachu with better camping/zoning but a worse profile/fall speed (for getting combo'd). I view Mario as a Pikachu with worse grounded footsies and recovery and better trading, airspeed, and versatility due to customs.
 
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Project Quarantine

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Peach been thrown around B/A tier, Dark. Pch.


I don't speak for every single viewer of course, but since I been playing and watching Lug since S1. I can assure you 30+ minute farm fests is not fun.
CLG EU and WE is a good example in S2. Killing 80+ wards wasn't hype and that's why today it's now a tradition of sorts to cheer whenever a ward is killed, cause that's honestly the most exciting thing that's happening in the match.

Which is why the EU scene is one of the worst to watch. Nothing but farm fests and passive teams that never want to fight (Elements).
I still watch EU, but I tune out quite literally 95% of the time and only switch if announcers going off. Sad to say I don't even have a favorite team in their scene.

The meta of AD farming alone top/bot lane while support roams either mid to get flashes or with jungler to ward while top laner is also with jungler cause double jungle and not good to be an early melee top laner against the ad carry.
It's boring, Rito also makes changes or champs for the meta which is not fun either. **** man, their next champion Bard is quite literally all about roaming and getting experience from RNG by picking **** up, just like how thresh was grabbing souls to get armor and AD to trade early in lane.

They nerf champs that used to be meta and then never buff them again for like another year or two. Skarner not seen play since S2, finally give him QoL changes in S4 (almost 3 years) which was all actually nerfs...
Twitch gets remodel and people realize he kinda strong, nerf him after worlds cuz better not mess up their team comps, and now twitch in the barrel of obscurity.

If anything, watching a 40+ minute farm fest then watching the likes of leblanc W/R into their team and either 100-0 their AD or even AP mid laner isn't "fun" it's more of frustrating when poke games happen cause you then see the bull**** of some characters.
Wave clears like Ziggs and Xerath was never "fun" it was boring. Dragon dances is boring too. Just fight.

Sorry for League rant though.
Wat

On the topic of neutral though, I feel that smash 4 really becomes a complex game at neutral, and what decisions you make there. Melee is with combos and aggression. Brawl is like smash 4, but became stale and "coinflippy." Hype is generated when a player breaks neutral, and begins a combo in sm4sh.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Wat

On the topic of neutral though, I feel that smash 4 really becomes a complex game at neutral, and what decisions you make there. Melee is with combos and aggression. Brawl is like smash 4, but became stale and "coinflippy." Hype is generated when a player breaks neutral, and begins a combo in sm4sh.
Honestly its hard read and dynamic transions from Neutral advantage and disadvantage that generates hype.
 

Ffamran

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I forgot about this since I sometimes go on video linking rampages. It's late, but on the defensive play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNN6-twQPA.

I don't know how Bower Jr.'s supposed to be played, but being able to set up traps like that is pretty cool and being able to carefully plan out everything would make for an interesting, albeit boring game for most people. By most, people who don't defensive play, don't like long matches, don't care for strategy, etc.
 

FullMoon

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No matter how much I try I can't find a secondary that suits me as well as Greninja does so I'm likely going to solo main the ninja all the way no matter if the meta eventually becomes harsh on him or not. I pretty much made it my mission to master this character to a profissional level.

Not that it matters much since I likely won't be able to attend tournaments ever since my scene is pretty small. I doubt I'd be able to make a name for myself even if I had tournaments to go to anyway.
 

Road Death Wheel

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No matter how much I try I can't find a secondary that suits me as well as Greninja does so I'm likely going to solo main the ninja all the way no matter if the meta eventually becomes harsh on him or not. I pretty much made it my mission to master this character to a profissional level.

Not that it matters much since I likely won't be able to attend tournaments ever since my scene is pretty small. I doubt I'd be able to make a name for myself even if I had tournaments to go to anyway.
:D
samus
 

Antonykun

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I forgot about this since I sometimes go on video linking rampages. It's late, but on the defensive play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNN6-twQPA.

I don't know how Bower Jr.'s supposed to be played, but being able to set up traps like that is pretty cool and being able to carefully plan out everything would make for an interesting, albeit boring game for most people. By most, people who don't defensive play, don't like long matches, don't care for strategy, etc.
Ffamran, I already made up my mind against using Morton, so stop showing me videos of Villager riding the koopa clown car.
 

Emblem Lord

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Marth forums just had some online sessions with customs. I had an interesting occurrence with Storm Thrust. I may have underestimated it. And Crescent Slash is the bees knees. Really pulls Marcina together as a character.
 

Dre89

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Except that's not how it works long term. And if Zero can take a low/mid tier and find tourny success with them, then they aren't actually low/mid, are they? Elite players are more likely to play the best characters available because winning is their top goal.

And no, it's really not. All having a good player repping a character does is develop the character's metagame. M2K loved Mewtwo, but he's still sitting in bottom. Sure, in the short term this can have effects. But, long term, everything will settle. Long term, if a character finds success, they are viable and deserve a higher placement regardless of player. This is because the skill gap at the top levels really isn't that huge.

It's data. You make it sound like it can be manipulated by top players. If those players find success against other top players with a character, that character wasn't bad and the perception of them being lower tier was wrong. Because of the plays of the tops, we have data to prove it. If your character is low and you think them high, and they aren't placing, you have to ask yourself 2 things: Are they not actually good? Why am I not the one placing for them?
A ZSS won Apex for Brawl and she wasn't considered top tier. It was late in Brawl's life so it didn't really affect the rankings, but if she had won every Apex she would've been top.

This is the problem with results based lists. We have a character that has proven to be viable at the highest level of play, but didn't get put top tier becayse she only got elite level rep later on.

Results based lists are only accurate about character strength if every single character has rep of the same quality. That just isn't the case. Any character that Zero picks up will get better results within months than the characters currently around them on the list. He could make Zard better than Bowser results wise if he wanted to, for example. Bowser isn't that much better than Zard that far inferior players will get better results with him than Zero with Zard.
 

Conda

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@ Dre89 Dre89 True, but there's also reason for representation. Both are valued, as the hypothetical "if there were 51 ZeRos, and they all played a different character" situation will never happen and hasn't happened even in melee's 13 years, for one of many game examples.

So it makes that metric of valuation impractical, albeit ideal. But things don't always happen the way they ideally could. It'd make it easy for us if it did.
 
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Shaya

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In general I'm feeling that customs meta really pushes this "kills at 60%" out of a confirm (or similar) move choices. Game play can be pushed towards ledges easily and there's a lot of death and despair to be had there, it's usually mixed within a recovery move, but if no one ever wants to recover because they can kill you at 60% (and they won't be able to recover either because they want to kill you at 60% with their option choice) then it's how the game is going to go, and it isn't really a bad thing, higher risks but obviously higher rewards to go with it.

That observation in itself I wasn't inclined to think Marth was apart of (i.e. being in-meta in his choices), but I suppose it's obvious he at least has the option and the potential to make it work.
I've been challenging a lot of people lately, and you're one of them EL, show me the crescent slash isn't crescent trash ;)
 

Saturn_

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Marth forums just had some online sessions with customs. I had an interesting occurrence with Storm Thrust. I may have underestimated it. And Crescent Slash is the bees knees. Really pulls Marcina together as a character.
Any chance you'll bust out Lucina in comp or is Marth just flat-out strictly better?
 

Antonykun

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@ Dre89 Dre89 True, but there's also reason for representation. Both are valued, as the hypothetical "if there were 51 ZeRos, and they all played a different character" situation will never happen and hasn't happened even in melee's 13 years, for one of many game examples.

So it makes that metric of valuation impractical, albeit ideal. But things don't always happen the way they ideally could. It'd make it easy for us if it did.
So Zero became a unit?
The thought of 51 Zeros makes me question my smashing ability. But at least Swordfighter gets someone to advance their meta.
Also I might have to take a stroll to the Bowser Jr forum as Im curious to their trap game.
 

Ffamran

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Ffamran, I already made up my mind against using Morton, so stop showing me videos of Villager riding the koopa clown car.
But Andy's not using Morton and you should obviously represent our lord and saviour boy, :4roy:. :p

Still, the defensive play was pretty interesting and it's probably because there's actual trapping like Pac-Man while Rosalina's defensive play is well, defensive. At least with Luma Warp and Shoot Star Bit aka FALCO LASER, BUT BETTER *grumbles*, it can get interesting, but I think Rosalina can be much more aggressive with customs.
 

ParanoidDrone

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But Andy's not using Morton and you should obviously represent our lord and saviour boy, :4roy:. :p

Still, the defensive play was pretty interesting and it's probably because there's actual trapping like Pac-Man while Rosalina's defensive play is well, defensive. At least with Luma Warp and Shoot Star Bit aka FALCO LASER, BUT BETTER *grumbles*, it can get interesting, but I think Rosalina can be much more aggressive with customs.
I eagerly await the day when Rosalina secures a kill on stream by warping Luma offstage into fsmash or dair or something.

...unless that already happened and I forgot in which case shame on me and is there a link so I can bask in the glory?
 

thehard

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HeavyLobster

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A ZSS won Apex for Brawl and she wasn't considered top tier. It was late in Brawl's life so it didn't really affect the rankings, but if she had won every Apex she would've been top.

This is the problem with results based lists. We have a character that has proven to be viable at the highest level of play, but didn't get put top tier becayse she only got elite level rep later on.

Results based lists are only accurate about character strength if every single character has rep of the same quality. That just isn't the case. Any character that Zero picks up will get better results within months than the characters currently around them on the list. He could make Zard better than Bowser results wise if he wanted to, for example. Bowser isn't that much better than Zard that far inferior players will get better results with him than Zero with Zard.
Bowser's better than Zard? I'm not convinced. Zard with customs is far more flexible and able to deal with his weaknesses than Bowser. He may be worse in neutral, but he still has enough to hold his own there. His advantaged state is better, with better follow-ups and edgeguarding, and his disadvantaged state is vastly superior to Bowser's due to Rock Hurl's frame 1 super armor and his very good recovery with Dragon Rush/Flare Blitz, Dragon Rush in particular because it doesn't damage Charizard. Bowser has great mobility with Dash Slam/Slash and hits harder, but he's very juggle prone and his recovery is mediocre. Even aerial Dash Slam/Slash doesn't take you too far, certainly nothing compared to Dragon Rush as an escape option, and his other landing options are telegraphed and laggy. I agree that the difference between the two characters isn't huge, but I generally feel Zard's tools are more useful against the high tiers than Bowser's, and that his custom options are better, and for these reasons I'd put Zard over Bowser, at least with customs on. Customs off I don't feel there's much difference.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Bowser's better than Zard? I'm not convinced. Zard with customs is far more flexible and able to deal with his weaknesses than Bowser. He may be worse in neutral, but he still has enough to hold his own there. His advantaged state is better, with better follow-ups and edgeguarding, and his disadvantaged state is vastly superior to Bowser's due to Rock Hurl's frame 1 super armor and his very good recovery with Dragon Rush/Flare Blitz, Dragon Rush in particular because it doesn't damage Charizard. Bowser has great mobility with Dash Slam/Slash and hits harder, but he's very juggle prone and his recovery is mediocre. Even aerial Dash Slam/Slash doesn't take you too far, certainly nothing compared to Dragon Rush as an escape option, and his other landing options are telegraphed and laggy. I agree that the difference between the two characters isn't huge, but I generally feel Zard's tools are more useful against the high tiers than Bowser's, and that his custom options are better, and for these reasons I'd put Zard over Bowser, at least with customs on. Customs off I don't feel there's much difference.
neutral is important though and something that hits as hard as bowser, getting such a strong mix up move is actually kinda rediculous. Also wave slashing sliding across the full lengh of fd for fun shinanigans.
 
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Dre89

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Bowser's better than Zard? I'm not convinced. Zard with customs is far more flexible and able to deal with his weaknesses than Bowser. He may be worse in neutral, but he still has enough to hold his own there. His advantaged state is better, with better follow-ups and edgeguarding, and his disadvantaged state is vastly superior to Bowser's due to Rock Hurl's frame 1 super armor and his very good recovery with Dragon Rush/Flare Blitz, Dragon Rush in particular because it doesn't damage Charizard. Bowser has great mobility with Dash Slam/Slash and hits harder, but he's very juggle prone and his recovery is mediocre. Even aerial Dash Slam/Slash doesn't take you too far, certainly nothing compared to Dragon Rush as an escape option, and his other landing options are telegraphed and laggy. I agree that the difference between the two characters isn't huge, but I generally feel Zard's tools are more useful against the high tiers than Bowser's, and that his custom options are better, and for these reasons I'd put Zard over Bowser, at least with customs on. Customs off I don't feel there's much difference.
I was talking about non customs. In non customs Bowser is just a better version of Zard and DK. Not because they're all heavies, but because they all have similar options and Bowser's trump theirs in most cases.

I'll admit on second thought Zard isn't as inferior as I first thought, but I still think he's slightly worse and I could see why some people would think he's better. DK is straight up worse version of both of them though.
 

Road Death Wheel

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I was talking about non customs. In non customs Bowser is just a better version of Zard and DK. Not because they're all heavies, but because they all have similar options and Bowser's trump theirs in most cases.

I'll admit on second thought Zard isn't as inferior as I first thought, but I still think he's slightly worse and I could see why some people would think he's better. DK is straight up worse version of both of them though.
DK has the 9th fastest air speed in the game. I don't know how hes inferior to any of them. So far hes been doing the best outa all the heavys in non customs meta.
 
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HeavyLobster

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I was talking about non customs. In non customs Bowser is just a better version of Zard and DK. Not because they're all heavies, but because they all have similar options and Bowser's trump theirs in most cases.

I'll admit on second thought Zard isn't as inferior as I first thought, but I still think he's slightly worse and I could see why some people would think he's better. DK is straight up worse version of both of them though.
Zard and Bowser feel more alike to me with customs than without, mainly because Dash Slash and Dragon Rush are more functionally similar to each other than their defaults. At any rate their profiles of strengths and weaknesses are very different in spite of their similarities. DK isn't strictly outclassed by any of the other heavies, as he's solidly in the middle of them in terms of kill power, recovery, combo game, and ability to escape from juggles. He's also got very good mobility for his size, maybe a touch ahead of Bowser, but both him and Bowser are the only ones who have both aerial and ground mobility. He's not as good at edgeguarding as Ganon, Charizard, or Dedede, but I'd put him ahead of Bowser. He holds up reasonably well in advantage, neutral, and disadvantage compared to other heavies, and has ways to work around his deficiencies. Without customs he's at least comparable to other heavies in terms of viability, if not a bit better. With customs, he's probably the best of the heavies thanks to Kong Cyclone. Ranking the heavies with customs on I put DK > Charizard > Ganon/Bowser >> Dedede.
 

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Without customs I feel as though Ganondorf is the best heavy. His most efficient moves also double as kill moves (ftilt, dtilt, bair, up-air) which isn't really true for the other heavies, so he never, ever has trouble killing and killing early.
 

Dre89

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DK has the 9th fastest air speed in the game. I don't know how hes inferior to any of them. So far hes been doing the best outa all the heavys in non customs meta.
He's done the best because he's repped by a high level player who has played him since Brawl, and he's largely unchanged from that game.

DK doesn't have a fair and his upb oos is good but nowhere near as good as Bowser's. Bowser's upb is a huge deal. It makes him so much more safe and better at punishing than the other two. His jab is the best of the three and that's also really important for all of them since they rely on their boxing game a lot. Pretty sure Zard still has the longest grab range and dash speed, but I think Bowser's is still longer than DK's.

The only core tool where DK outdoes Bowser is his bair. Bowser's bair is still useable though and is good for killing, whereas DK doesn't have a fair.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I eagerly await the day when Rosalina secures a kill on stream by warping Luma offstage into fsmash or dair or something.

...unless that already happened and I forgot in which case shame on me and is there a link so I can bask in the glory?
Iggy vs AeroLink on tourney locator channel.
 

Nocally

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I know I'm late guys, but frame data is not everything.

However, good numbers overall (damage, knockback, KO percents on attacks, hitboxes, ETC.) ARE everything.

Also people get upset about defensive play because unless you are a seasoned vet or you simply enjoy the kind of gameplay, it's not fun to watch. It's a viewership thing. To this day there are Street Fighter players that call Dhalsim boring.

Dhalsim is ****ing amazing btw.

This sentiment will NEVER go away guys. NOT EVER. SRK has been dealing with this since the early 90's. Casuals and most fighting game players simply don't have the patience to appreciate the intricacies of a slower defensive paced game.

And honestly why do we care if the game is boring to watch at high level?

Cuz E-Sports?

**** outta here.

The game is what it is. Play it or don't.

Seems like the average attention span on the internet is lower than the average on a sports interested person. Millions of people watch football (soccer) or whatever for days on end, but an 8 minute game of semi defense play is boring? People are getting spoiled by the "quickness" of the internet, people want action here and now, and not wait.

Back on topic, Which characters excel at controlling the pace of the match by using defensive strategies, is it only "zoning" characters like Megaman and Duck hunt, or characters like Rosalina and zelda, + Sonics hit and run games.
Or does it all come down to player preference and play styles?
 

Quickhero

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Any chance you'll bust out Lucina in comp or is Marth just flat-out strictly better?
Marth is strictly better, he gets much more reward out of his combos/mix-ups and his tipper (or sour-spot mechanic) makes things like sourspot f-air--> f-throw ---> a true combo early on and it provides a lot of rack up early on, or things such as DA --> tipped U-tilt on stages like BF where the player can slide into the stage, where Lucina isn't able to.

One of the main reasons why hearing "Marcina" irritates me besides sounding so derp, it gives the illusion to others that Lucina benefits a whole lot from these changes, where (at least so far), that's not really true. The Lucina boards should be discovering stuff themselves if they want her to get better, because the stuff Marth does currently is much better on Marth / is only possible on Marth.
 
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Shaya

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Not like it isn't possible on Lucina, it's just more restrictive on her.

Sour fair on marth to dancing blade combos, so does fair to dancing blade on Lucina.
Just Marth's combos for a lot longer, because destiny(⑨) i.e. 20-60% while Lucina is like 15-40%
The irony here is that maybe Lucina is "lucky" to have well-spaced actions combo into things, but that's probably not going to be a frequent thing she can ever rely on. Hitting with tippers on Lucina will be comboing less than hitting centre blade.
Neither character really has the frame data to combo early percent, so they're both unsafe on hit, Marth has tippers to negate that at early percent a little as well.

Nothing really works out for her better than Marth could because she literally has half the depth in her every action. And that "depth" just plainly works out better in practice too (fancy having a 20% odd combo lasting twice as long as her... that she isn't compensated for; let alone those fairs comboing into TIPPER FSMASHES). She shouldn't be just a midpoint (more like 100 : 115 : 145) between Marth's sours and sweetspots, some moves should either be higher bases with lower scaling (to keep her 'easy') or some alternative form of sweetspots (like most characters, early hits are strong and late hits are weak). Don't know about her having fair to fsmash killing centre stage, but as Marth can get fair to sour fsmash that can kill near a ledge, not sure why Lucina can't either :p
 
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Brinzy

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Back on topic, Which characters excel at controlling the pace of the match by using defensive strategies, is it only "zoning" characters like Megaman and Duck hunt, or characters like Rosalina and zelda, + Sonics hit and run games.
Or does it all come down to player preference and play styles?
Anyone that 1) can reliably force approaches and/or reliably approach to punish mistakes very easily, and 2) actually has good OoS options, traps, evasiveness, etc. In my opinion.

I personally view defensive play as simply playing to minimize risk rather than maxing reward. If a character can make it far just by forcing easy reactions from most of the cast and punishing them while not being forced into much themselves, I'd say the character is strong defensively.

Using your examples, Megaman and Duck Hunt can easily rack damage on opponents, but if they need to gain a lead quickly or need to end a stock, they have to take more risks or simply hope for a lucky hit like Megaman's Fsmash when the opponent cannot punish it or DH's neutral B killing.

Rosalina can rely on Luma to rack up easy damage and force virtually braindead traps for her opponents if she plays well, and a lot of her attacks are disjointed and/or have high priority. Since Rosalina is an easier character without Luma, you'll generally find that she won't have any problems forcing approaches from anyone, because everyone wants to play with more aggression when Luma's out of the picture, and Luma forces reactions anyway.

Sonic can easily get leads and hold them for a while with hit and run tactics. I would argue that a patiently played Sonic is a terror to deal with. YMMV

Zelda is the perfect example of an awful "defensive" character. She has no way to force approaches, even if the opponent lacks a projectile, and using her projectiles to force an approach can open her up to punishment from a fair bit of the cast. She is probably the worst character in the game when it comes to approaching the opponent, and she is forced to do this a lot. This means she can't even be played the way that she may have originally been intended (if you view Sheik as an offensive character anyway - but Sheik can also be played defensively far better than Zelda, lol). That means she fails on the first point, and you'll find that characters that can't force approaches in a normal situation that are also slow will suffer in this game. I formatted "also" because there are slower characters that are certainly not terrible (Robin), and there are characters that generally are forced to approach in most situations that aren't totally awful (Falcon).

Zelda's trap game is amazing once she gets inside and gets going, because while her aerials are overall extremely terrible, you only need a few hits to reap huge rewards and possibly the game. Her OoS options really aren't bad, given bair is frame 6, nair is frame 6, and Dsmash/dtilt are frame 5; grab is a little slow at frame 10 but certainly usable. Also, OoS Farore's is a frame 7 hit with a frame 11 vanish, and if you can process if it hits or not in a really short timeframe, it can be nonpunishable. It's easier said than done - if you've watched @Nairo's Zelda, you've seen him teleport horizontally on Farore's hits because the cost for guessing wrong can be a stock. Anyway, I digress... if Zelda's opponent is somehow forced to play her game, she's a pretty good character. There's just no real situation where this is going to happen.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Anyone that 1) can reliably force approaches and/or reliably approach to punish mistakes very easily, and 2) actually has good OoS options, traps, evasiveness, etc. In my opinion.

I personally view defensive play as simply playing to minimize risk rather than maxing reward. If a character can make it far just by forcing easy reactions from most of the cast and punishing them while not being forced into much themselves, I'd say the character is strong defensively.

Using your examples, Megaman and Duck Hunt can easily rack damage on opponents, but if they need to gain a lead quickly or need to end a stock, they have to take more risks or simply hope for a lucky hit like Megaman's Fsmash when the opponent cannot punish it or DH's neutral B killing.

Rosalina can rely on Luma to rack up easy damage and force virtually braindead traps for her opponents if she plays well, and a lot of her attacks are disjointed and/or have high priority. Since Rosalina is an easier character without Luma, you'll generally find that she won't have any problems forcing approaches from anyone, because everyone wants to play with more aggression when Luma's out of the picture, and Luma forces reactions anyway.

Sonic can easily get leads and hold them for a while with hit and run tactics. I would argue that a patiently played Sonic is a terror to deal with. YMMV

Zelda is the perfect example of an awful "defensive" character. She has no way to force approaches, even if the opponent lacks a projectile, and using her projectiles to force an approach can open her up to punishment from a fair bit of the cast. She is probably the worst character in the game when it comes to approaching the opponent, and she is forced to do this a lot. This means she can't even be played the way that she may have originally been intended (if you view Sheik as an offensive character anyway - but Sheik can also be played defensively far better than Zelda, lol). That means she fails on the first point, and you'll find that characters that can't force approaches in a normal situation that are also slow will suffer in this game. I formatted "also" because there are slower characters that are certainly not terrible (Robin), and there are characters that generally are forced to approach in most situations that aren't totally awful (Falcon).

Zelda's trap game is amazing once she gets inside and gets going, because while her aerials are overall extremely terrible, you only need a few hits to reap huge rewards and possibly the game. Her OoS options really aren't bad, given bair is frame 6, nair is frame 6, and Dsmash/dtilt are frame 5; grab is a little slow at frame 10 but certainly usable. Also, OoS Farore's is a frame 7 hit with a frame 11 vanish, and if you can process if it hits or not in a really short timeframe, it can be nonpunishable. It's easier said than done - if you've watched @Nairo's Zelda, you've seen him teleport horizontally on Farore's hits because the cost for guessing wrong can be a stock. Anyway, I digress... if Zelda's opponent is somehow forced to play her game, she's a pretty good character. There's just no real situation where this is going to happen.
Well to be honest your always playing zelda's game witch is neutral. Her neutral aint great or even good. But the chick legit has no advantage or disadvantage.
 
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Dark.Pch

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Respect you alot for your work with the character but until results in big tournys start to appear shes not moving from there.
To be honest, I dont care much about tier list people make. Due to mostly people judging a book by its cover and not learning all the character can do. On top of that alot of people don't know match ups. If a easy mode character beats a character that takes hella work, the hard working character main would usually saythis match up is bad. When that person does not know all thier options. I had Peach players saying how greninja was a hell match up. I sat with NinjaLink for 2 hours losing that match up till I finally realized how to do it. Then I was able to beat him. All the Greninjas I was losing too I was beating. Apex 2015 I had to fight for second seed against a greninja and I won. I fought other greninjas that thought that match up was free and now they see that Peach gives that character problems.

I said this before but Peach is a seriously hard character to use. Thats why you don't hear alot of them doing justice. Some people even quit her because of it and ran to a character that simple. I'm not judge anything base on stuff like this. Really when the game is still in its baby stages. And also another reason tourney results hold lil to me.
 
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Locuan

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Adding to what @ Emblem Lord Emblem Lord said to Marcina with customs:

Storm Thrust Stuff and great tippers to two stock me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XcHxm331xo

Bunch of F-Throw Crescent Slash Combos by EL and how deadly they can be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1M5JRpabNw

Dash Assault Jab Lock Setups (my favorite :3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adodOtAB-ZM

There's a bunch of other stuff recorded, but I think these three videos can highlight what Marth and Lucina can do with customs pretty well. There's a lot of other stuff in terms of trap scenarios and grab setups as well, I can go more in depth with that later if you guys like.
 

FullMoon

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To be honest, I dont care much about tier list people make. Due to mostly people judging a book by its cover and not learning all the character can do. On top of that alot of people don't know match ups. If a easy mode character beats a character that takes hella work, the hard working character main would usually saythis match up is bad. When that person does not know all thier options. I had Peach players saying how greninja was a hell match up. I sat with NinjaLink for 2 hours losing that match up till I finally realized how to do it. Then I was able to beat him. All the Greninjas I was losing too I was beating. Apex 2015 I had to fight for second seed against a greninja and I won. I fought other greninjas that thought that match up was free and now they see that Peach gives that character problems.
I never really felt like Peach was an easy character to win against myself the MU always seemed to be even or at best 55:45 in Greninja's favor but I never really went against a really good Peach. It's odd that there are people that find the MU easy to me.
 

Dark.Pch

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Its due to judging a book by it's cover. Also Greninjas not playing skilled Peach players. Which at this state of the game, is rare.
 
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FullMoon

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Its due to judging a book by it's cover. Also Greninjas not playing skilled Peach players. Which at this state of the game, is rare.
To be fair Greninja is not exactly an easy character to use either, less so than Peach but still pretty tricky. Skilled Greninja players aren't a common sight either since the character requires a lot of precision.

Would love to see you go against aMSa though.
 
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