Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

These things only matter if you actually give a damn about the game you play or the genre its in.
Half the people *****ing are content with level 5 CPU's for a challenge, they just want the name of a person attached to it. Why would you care about the intricacies, when you're a passive observer and a uninterested participant.

Pretty much this. The only way people will care about Smash 4 if they already don't is through player rivalries or WWE-style drama. I'm kinda curious to see if Brawl will win back a lot of fans if the upcoming documentary properly personalizes the players and drama that its scene also had.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I know I'm late guys, but frame data is not everything.

However, good numbers overall (damage, knockback, KO percents on attacks, hitboxes, ETC.) ARE everything.

Also people get upset about defensive play because unless you are a seasoned vet or you simply enjoy the kind of gameplay, it's not fun to watch. It's a viewership thing. To this day there are Street Fighter players that call Dhalsim boring.

Dhalsim is ****ing amazing btw.

This sentiment will NEVER go away guys. NOT EVER. SRK has been dealing with this since the early 90's. Casuals and most fighting game players simply don't have the patience to appreciate the intricacies of a slower defensive paced game.

And honestly why do we care if the game is boring to watch at high level?

Cuz E-Sports?

**** outta here.

The game is what it is. Play it or don't.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Pretty much this. The only way people will care about Smash 4 if they already don't is through player rivalries or WWE-style drama. I'm kinda curious to see if Brawl will win back a lot of fans if the upcoming documentary properly personalizes the players and drama that its scene also had.

"Properly" being the operative word here, though I can't help but wonder how the doc is going to paint shenanigans like MLG Dallas, MK ban/Unity, Brawl Backroom, etc.

@ Emblem Lord

Sim hurts my brain sometimes, haha. But, I can appreciate high-level play with him whenever I come across it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Also people get upset about defensive play because unless you are a seasoned vet or you simply enjoy the kind of gameplay, it's not fun to watch. It's a viewership thing. To this day there are Street Fighter players that call Dhalsim boring.

Dhalsim is awesome in SF4, you have to be so creative to do well with him. FChamp Dhalsim vs top players is always a fun set to watch.

This sentiment will NEVER go away guys. NOT EVER. SRK has been dealing with this since the early 90's. Casuals and most fighting game players simply don't have the patience to appreciate the intricacies of a slower defensive paced game.

And honestly why do we care if the game is boring to watch at high level?

Cuz E-Sports?

**** outta here.

The game is what it is. Play it or don't.

I totally agree. Commentators are not the problem, I think most of the good commentators do a fairly good job explaining the intricacies of the game and creating hype, but that only works for people who choose to listen. For all the dopes who just flood the chat with "when's Mahvel?" the commentary is meaningless. We shouldn't worry about changing what we do just to cater to those frauds though. We already throw them a bone by continuing to stream flashy but shallow games like Marvel and Melee, we don't need to start dumbing down other games just because they don't appreciate them.

 

[NairWizard]

There's a difference between respecting a strategy and liking it.

Brawl Ice Climbers takes a lot of skill (execution and otherwise) to use, and even more to fight. Playing properly with and against ICies can be one of the most intense demonstrations of skill in any fighting game. I respect people who use Ice Climbers.

But I don't enjoy watching or facing them.

Skill isn't the sole determining factor in enjoyment. It is one of many.

Don't treat our viewers as scrubs just because they don't like defensive gameplay. There's too much of that going on.

 

[Terotrous]

Don't treat our viewers as scrubs just because they don't like defensive gameplay. There's too much of that going on.

Not liking to watch something is fine. Whether or not someone wants to watch a set is always their call. However, to suggest that defensive play either doesn't take skill or that Smash4 is a bad game for allowing defensive play is scrub talk, and there is indeed way too much of that going on.


Personally, what I find most interesting to watch is always unusual matchups. GW vs Megaman? That's hype. Diddy mirror match? Not nearly as hype. But that's just the way tournaments go, and even Diddy mirrors occasionally have their hype moments.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But...alot of them are scrubs. They simply wish to be impressed. They don't care about high level. They just want to see flashy ****.

Sorry, but if thats what you want then smash 4 probably isn't the game you need to watching.

And to continue watching a game that doesn't appeal to you and then bash that game is immature. No one is making these people watch the game. But they do so and bash it or complain that its boring.

What the **** kind of sense does that make?

 

[warionumbah2]

Probably have nothing better to do than ***** on sm4sh livestreams when the sun is shining outside their window.

 

[NairWizard]

Not liking to watch something is fine. Whether or not someone wants to watch a set is always their call. However, to suggest that defensive play either doesn't take skill or that Smash4 is a bad game for allowing defensive play is scrub talk, and there is indeed way too much of that going on.

True--on saying that smash 4 doesn't take skill; that's uncalled for. Saying that smash4 is bad for allowing defensive play, though? I don't think there's anything wrong with that, myself. Nothing wrong with calling something bad when it meets your criteria for bad. That's an opinion. Saying that something doesn't take skill when it obviously does is just flat out incorrect, has nothing to do with opinions.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I loathed Brawl's idea of "neutral" sometimes, but I'll be damned if I thought it didn't take an ENORMOUS amount of patience and skill. Playing Smash 4 has given me a little more perspective on that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Saying that smash4 is bad for allowing defensive play, though? I don't think there's anything wrong with that, myself. Nothing wrong with calling something bad when it meets your criteria for bad. That's an opinion.

No, see, I disagree. "I don't like it" is an opinion. "This is a bad game" isn't really an opinion. When people say Smash4 is a bad game because it allows defensive play, they're usually talking about their perception that the game's metagame lacks depth, which an objective statement relating to game mechanics, and indeed, if you press them on it they'll usually try to back it up with some kind of reasoning rather than say "well that's just my opinion". The thing is, that reasoning is virtually always wrong, typically "there's no reward for landing a hit, so no one has an incentive to attack" or something like that, which is demonstrably false to anyone who has any understanding of the concept of the disadvantaged state in Smash. Just because a follow-up hit may not be guaranteed doesn't mean that the options for the advantaged player aren't far better than those for the disadvantaged player. Only someone who does not really play the game would fail to understand that, which is why I classify it as scrub talk.

I would actually argue the reverse, that a game that does not give a defending player any viable options to escape pressure is likely to be a shallow game. In such games, matchup dynamics are usually not very important, because once you achieve a pressure situation you don't have to respect the opponent's options at all and can just freely autopilot your blockstrings and mixups. A lot of the reason Smash has such a dynamic neutral game is precisely because the defending player has options to escape pressure and reset the situation that force you to attack thoughtfully and adapt your strategy to your opponent's character and tendencies.

 

[Seagull Joe]

What people often don't realize is "defensive play" is heavily based on understanding fundamentals, and often leads to a dynamic set between two players whom understand this.

Seagull Joe vs Lloid (I think that's how you spell it) is a strong example of this. Both are what people would call "extremely defensive" players, but when they were pit against each other it was perhaps the most back 'n forth set of that tournament, because what judges who switches to defense and who switches to offensive depends on who has the percent lead. Similarly, whenever those two do not have the percent lead in any matchup, they both change tempo and go offensive to get it back.

This is basic fundamentals that spectators unfortunately do not have an appreciation for. It's even worse when players who don't understand this will continue to camp even when they're behind, and that leads to time-outs.

It's spelled lloD lol. He's my crewmate. He has had the best in every game she's in except for Melee (Armada).

I'm also not as defensive as people think. I literally go in almost all the time. I just go in as safely as possible and make myself hard to hit or punish every time. I'm a zoning player. I space around people and understand good option select. I never aim to clock someone. It's just the nature of using lol.

Edit: People confuse campy with defensive. I just confused it myself. I am defensive, but I don't camp a lot in smash 4 unless I have a big lead, which is what every good player does.

 

[Conda]

I know I'm late guys, but frame data is not everything.

However, good numbers overall (damage, knockback, KO percents on attacks, hitboxes, ETC.) ARE everything.

Also people get upset about defensive play because unless you are a seasoned vet or you simply enjoy the kind of gameplay, it's not fun to watch. It's a viewership thing. To this day there are Street Fighter players that call Dhalsim boring.

Dhalsim is ****ing amazing btw.

This sentiment will NEVER go away guys. NOT EVER. SRK has been dealing with this since the early 90's. Casuals and most fighting game players simply don't have the patience to appreciate the intricacies of a slower defensive paced game.

And honestly why do we care if the game is boring to watch at high level?

Cuz E-Sports?

**** outta here.

The game is what it is. Play it or don't.

Nope, it's totally a 'young spectator event' thing, growing pains. People watch and funking LOVE american football, yet 75% of it is play set-ups and talk about slow defensive/offensive strategies. Same goes for Starcraft for most of each match, as well as League Of Legends/DOTA.

LoL and DOTA viewers have learned the game and thus LOVE watching the pokey gameplay that happens for 30 min out of each 50 min match. Because they udnerstand the tension and weight of each hit, and what each player is doing to extend, retreat, and so forth. There's clear 'advantaged' and 'disadvantaged' states and people love to watch it and hear it spoken about by the commentators. It's a story that's unfolding, and commentators have to be there to be the Morgan Freeman of the experience for the audience.

Without that, viewership and spectator base will be limited to and not able to grow the way it can and has for other successful spectator events as well as videogames.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm more of the open minded person that believes if your character strives on a certain playstyle then I know what to expect and I have no qualms with it. Usually, I enjoy watching it and even going against it because I like to find ways to break it down and reward myself by winning.

Doing it myself though is a different story, and frankly there's a reason why players, even top level players tend to ignore the fundamentals of percent leads and attempt to press their momentum instead. Frankly, it's just tiring to do that, even when you're winning. The clock drags out, it's probably easier to just beat the stocks out of you if I'm that much better than you, and if I somehow lose that advantage, it makes all of that effort and snowballing effectively worthless.

This doesn't even go into the MUs that changes this drastically. I mean, good luck going defensive on Sheik when she can camp with her mobility and needles even when she's behind. Mario doesn't have a great toolkit for campy play either, despite me doing that before.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel you are talking about true fighter enthusiast. Yes, commentators can reach those people. You can NEVER reach haters or people that delight in tearing things down just for the sake of it.

 

[Locke 06]

Nope, it's totally a 'young spectator event' thing, growing pains. People watch and funking LOVE american football, yet 75% of it is play set-ups and talk about slow defensive/offensive strategies. Same goes for Starcraft for most of each match, as well as League Of Legends/DOTA.

LoL and DOTA viewers have learned the game and thus LOVE watching the pokey gameplay that happens for 30 min out of each 50 min match. Because they udnerstand the tension and weight of each hit, and what each player is doing to extend, retreat, and so forth. There's clear 'advantaged' and 'disadvantaged' states and people love to watch it and hear it spoken about by the commentators. It's a story that's unfolding, and commentators have to be there to be the Morgan Freeman of the experience for the audience.

Without that, viewership and spectator base will be limited to and not able to grow the way it can and has for other successful spectator events as well as videogames.

I'd argue that the majority of people who watch American football dislike the slow defensive/offensive strategies. It's why people don't like the San Diego Chargers/think Philip Rivers is a bad QB because they're not flashy. Meanwhile, people love watching the Seahawks because both their offense and defense game plans are based on setting up for the hype big play.

The majority of Football watchers would not enjoy watching football if all they saw was Richard Sherman shutting down the opposing receiver. While it undoubtably takes skill and football enthusiasts will point to the positioning and subtle details of his technique, nobody wants to watch that for an entire game because there is simply very little action. Instead, the camera is focused on the QB and the ball, because that's what people want to see.

It's hype when Peyton Manning completely dominates a defense and scores points. It's lame when the opposing offense can't do anything against a defense who doesn't force turnovers or get sacks.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm not gonna lie, Melee is really fun to watch. In my opinion, more so than Smash 4. But that doesn't make Smash 4 a bad game. Take a wild guess as to which one I play competitively.

 

[Terotrous]

There's a reason why players, even top level players tend to ignore the fundamentals of percent leads and attempt to press their momentum instead.

This should be called Mike Ross syndrome.

"Goddamn it Mike you have the health lead and there's 20 seconds left, just turtle! You play Honda!"
-Every SF4 match involving Mike Ross ever
(he never does it)

I'd argue that the majority of people who watch American football dislike the slow defensive/offensive strategies. It's why people don't like the San Diego Chargers/think Philip Rivers is a bad QB because they're not flashy. Meanwhile, people love watching the Seahawks because both their offense and defense game plans are based on setting up for the hype big play.

I would argue that the majority of people who love football are mostly there for the tailgating and to watch big guys hit each other, so it's probably not the best example. Or maybe it's the perfect example if you're really cynical.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Lot of Peach talk here. Im just gonna say this. Peach grab range is NOT awful at all.

Also, pepple should check out my stream when I happen to do so. I play Peach alot and you can all see how level play of her.

Also Peach as mid tier? I thought this thread was about smash 4 and not brawl.

 

[Saturn_]

Brawl's problems were that the constant resets to neutral and the complete lack of extended punishments meant that a game between evenly-matched was basically a series of coinflips in which one person would land an attack for small damage and knockback and then then going back to neutral for another coinflip. Smash4 has a similar problem but it's not nearly as bad and I think the game is waaay more hype because of it.

From 64 til now, the characters have gotten much larger in comparison to the stages. In 64 the characters were these tiny little figures on massive stages and every attack had incredible knockback. Smash4 has big characters on small platforms doing small knockback. D1 should never call a smash4 game because he's always popping off on non-kill moves, because it's much harder to kill in smash4 than in 64 or Melee.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

From 64 til now, the characters have gotten much larger in comparison to the stages. In 64 the characters were these tiny little figures on massive stages and every attack had incredible knockback. Smash4 has big characters on small platforms doing small knockback. D1 should never call a smash4 game because he's always popping off on non-kill moves, because it's much harder to kill in smash4 than in 64 or Melee.

This is most obvious when looking at stages like Corneria and Kongo Jungle 64.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Peach been thrown around B/A tier, Dark. Pch.

LoL and DOTA viewers have learned the game and thus LOVE watching the pokey gameplay that happens for 30 min out of each 50 min match. Because they udnerstand the tension and weight of each hit, and what each player is doing to extend, retreat, and so forth.

I don't speak for every single viewer of course, but since I been playing and watching Lug since S1. I can assure you 30+ minute farm fests is not fun.
CLG EU and WE is a good example in S2. Killing 80+ wards wasn't hype and that's why today it's now a tradition of sorts to cheer whenever a ward is killed, cause that's honestly the most exciting thing that's happening in the match.

Which is why the EU scene is one of the worst to watch. Nothing but farm fests and passive teams that never want to fight (Elements).
I still watch EU, but I tune out quite literally 95% of the time and only switch if announcers going off. Sad to say I don't even have a favorite team in their scene.

The meta of AD farming alone top/bot lane while support roams either mid to get flashes or with jungler to ward while top laner is also with jungler cause double jungle and not good to be an early melee top laner against the ad carry.
It's boring, Rito also makes changes or champs for the meta which is not fun either. **** man, their next champion Bard is quite literally all about roaming and getting experience from RNG by picking **** up, just like how thresh was grabbing souls to get armor and AD to trade early in lane.

They nerf champs that used to be meta and then never buff them again for like another year or two. Skarner not seen play since S2, finally give him QoL changes in S4 (almost 3 years) which was all actually nerfs...
Twitch gets remodel and people realize he kinda strong, nerf him after worlds cuz better not mess up their team comps, and now twitch in the barrel of obscurity.

If anything, watching a 40+ minute farm fest then watching the likes of leblanc W/R into their team and either 100-0 their AD or even AP mid laner isn't "fun" it's more of frustrating when poke games happen cause you then see the bull**** of some characters.
Wave clears like Ziggs and Xerath was never "fun" it was boring. Dragon dances is boring too. Just fight.

Sorry for League rant though.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Lot of Peach talk here. Im just gonna say this. Peach grab range is NOT awful at all.

Also, pepple should check out my stream when I happen to do so. I play Peach alot and you can all see how level play of her.

Also Peach as mid tier? I thought this thread was about smash 4 and not brawl.

Always digged your posts, please write more about peach in Smash 4, also what do ya think about her customs?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have not been paying much attention to w/e tier list people speak or make. I do feel she is top ten in the game.

Always digged your posts, please write more about peach in Smash 4, also what do ya think about her customs?

I think Peach has good customs.

Here is a vid I made about them

 

[wedl!!]

dark pch can you be my dad

 

[Espy Rose]

So Seagull's post amounted to:

"I don't camp. I camp."

 

[Saturn_]

So Seagull's post amounted to:

"I don't camp. I camp."

No no no, he said people confuse 'defensive' with 'camping.' What he REALLY said was:

"I don't play defensively. I play...defensively."

 

[Dark.Pch]

dark pch can you be my dad

As long as I don't have to pay child support

 

[Flamecircle]

I think Peach has good customs.

Here is a vid I made about them

Looks pretty devestating. Do you pull these off in tourney much? They look very hit-confirm-able, but I never can tell.

Also, What's your favorite set?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I play counteroffensively.

...which means I need to play a different character. OH WELL

Smooth Criminal

 

[Saturn_]

I play counteroffensively.

...which means I need to play a different character. OH WELL

Smooth Criminal

I was originally on the "Dedede is viable!" train but I've fallen off hard, do you think he's better than people think or is he just 40-60 with most of the cast?

 

[mimgrim]

I play passive-aggressively.

I'm fine my character choice.

smooth mimgrim

 

[Pazx]

I was originally on the "Dedede is viable!" train but I've fallen off hard, do you think he's better than people think or is he just 40-60 with most of the cast?

I think he's probably 45:55 in his BEST matchups, D3 is not good enough of a character to be 40:60 against Diddy/Sheik/etc.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I was originally on the "Dedede is viable!" train but I've fallen off hard, do you think he's better than people think or is he just 40-60 with most of the cast?

In some areas D3 may grow (Gordos are definitely not as linear and impotent as originally suggested/anticipated, working on tech for mixups and ambiguous situations with them in the lab), but honestly? I think he'll keep his 40-60 MUs with a good portion of the cast, with a little dropoff when select characters build up their tech and refine it. His horribad MUs are only gonna get worse, though.

I believe he can compete, but I don't think he's entirely viable.

Also, I kind of disagree with the notion that he gets completely trounced by the top tiers, but it's only guesstimation on my part. All I know from my limited experience is that D3 loses, not how badly.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dark.Pch]

Im about to start streaming, so for those curious about high level Peach play:

www.twitch.tv/DarkPch

 

[Nobie]

In some areas D3 may grow (Gordos are definitely not as linear and impotent as originally suggested/anticipated, working on tech for mixups and ambiguous situations with them in the lab), but honestly? I think he'll keep his 40-60 MUs with a good portion of the cast, with a little dropoff when select characters build up their tech and refine it. His horribad MUs are only gonna get worse, though.

I believe he can compete, but I don't think he's entirely viable.

Also, I kind of disagree with the notion that he gets completely trounced by the top tiers, but it's only guesstimation on my part. All I know from my limited experience is that D3 loses, not how badly.

Smooth Criminal

My impression is that Dedede has good and bad matchups across the board, all the way from top tier to bottom tier. He has a surprisingly decent matchups against Sheik and Pikachu, but has issues with Diddy, for example.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

.

Also Peach as mid tier? I thought this thread was about smash 4 and not brawl.

Respect you alot for your work with the character but until results in big tournys start to appear shes not moving from there.

 

[NairWizard]

He has a surprisingly decent matchups against Sheik and Pikachu

I'm pretty sure that this is the grappler/Rage dilemma at play. Sheik and Pikachu should both beat Dedede pretty soundly. Offstage Dedede is freer than you might think, because of that airspeed. It's a tasty world for eating some Bouncing Fish.

Also, it would help if Dedede's gordos actually did something without tjolt reflecting them, at least in the Pikachu MU. I've faced a few Dededes who caught them on their way back, but it never led to anything productive.

 

[Luco]

Peach been thrown around B/A tier, Dark. Pch.


I don't speak for every single viewer of course, but since I been playing and watching Lug since S1. I can assure you 30+ minute farm fests is not fun.
CLG EU and WE is a good example in S2. Killing 80+ wards wasn't hype and that's why today it's now a tradition of sorts to cheer whenever a ward is killed, cause that's honestly the most exciting thing that's happening in the match.

Which is why the EU scene is one of the worst to watch. Nothing but farm fests and passive teams that never want to fight (Elements).
I still watch EU, but I tune out quite literally 95% of the time and only switch if announcers going off. Sad to say I don't even have a favorite team in their scene.

The meta of AD farming alone top/bot lane while support roams either mid to get flashes or with jungler to ward while top laner is also with jungler cause double jungle and not good to be an early melee top laner against the ad carry.
It's boring, Rito also makes changes or champs for the meta which is not fun either. **** man, their next champion Bard is quite literally all about roaming and getting experience from RNG by picking **** up, just like how thresh was grabbing souls to get armor and AD to trade early in lane.

They nerf champs that used to be meta and then never buff them again for like another year or two. Skarner not seen play since S2, finally give him QoL changes in S4 (almost 3 years) which was all actually nerfs...
Twitch gets remodel and people realize he kinda strong, nerf him after worlds cuz better not mess up their team comps, and now twitch in the barrel of obscurity.

If anything, watching a 40+ minute farm fest then watching the likes of leblanc W/R into their team and either 100-0 their AD or even AP mid laner isn't "fun" it's more of frustrating when poke games happen cause you then see the bull**** of some characters.
Wave clears like Ziggs and Xerath was never "fun" it was boring. Dragon dances is boring too. Just fight.

Sorry for League rant though.

Curious, in DoTA I personally find the mid-game is by far the most fun. Usually at this point, disadvantages can still be overcome by good play (this sounds super elementary but I'm tired and possibly for the first time in my life ever so slightly inebriated so stick with me), and the highly contentious, gank-heavy early game meshes into a more teamfighting-oriented state of play, where both players edge around each other until something happens - say, if one person oversteps the boundaries because they tried to harass too hard, or if a particular rune spawns. I can see why a lot of people enjoy this state of the game. Even in that gank-heavy beginning I mentioned, the tension between two players in a lane while the ganker creeps up and just barely avoids the sight of the ward is something people can really find quite exciting.

This may be my nostalgia (I don't have DoTA anywhere near me at this point in time, my flatmates play League ) talking, but I do see some merits in what Conda's saying, in that while the race to farm might not be so fun in itself, competitive DoTA (co-incidentally?) has quite a lot of tense strategy at all stages of gameplay and this is something viewers certainly can relate to and enjoy for much of the game.

I assumed this also applied to League.

In any case, it's somewhat irrelevant. I agree that Smash 4 shouldn't be afraid to be its own game and it would be nice if people appreciated it more. That said, in order to grow, we have to tread the line of how we can show the world that this game can be played competitively whilst not stepping on the toes of the players themselves. Being optimistic, I quite like the approach of getting viewers involved with the 'tense' aspect that is part of footsies, instead of focusing on how 'crazy radical' those 'sick combos' are. We established a long time ago we're not like most other fighters (or in some aspects, like previous smash games) but it might take time for viewers to get that. Or they might not get it at all. Whatevs.

The more I type the more it becomes apparent to me I am not in the correct state of mind to make a definitive case for this. I'm super tired, so I'll bid you all goodnight. =)

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think he's probably 45:55 in his BEST matchups, D3 is not good enough of a character to be 40:60 against Diddy/Sheik/etc.

I don't think Dedede is actually that terrible against Diddy or Sheik simply because neither can really kill him and he can play the rage game. Diddy in particular actually has trouble killing with Uair simply because D3's stupidly fat and hard to kill off the top, and Diddies tend to stale out their Uairs against him. Neither matchup is good by any means, but 40:60 actually seems like a reasonable MU ratio for them. Mega Man, on the other hand... *shudder* Why'd Sakurai have to change Gordos so that they could be reflected by lemons? Dedede definitely wins a few matchups, though, like G&W, and he's not completely terrible, it's just that he has no real answer against a strong camp game. He is worse than most of the rest of the cast, though, and the worst heavyweight.